Devore Fidelity Orangutan O/96
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@jjss49 haha maybe a san francisco 49er's special edition, red oak cabinets and gold driver surrounds??? |
Although the general characteristics of the 0/96s remain with all types of amplifiers, they only really sang when paired with the Atma-sphere 60s. Amps used were: 2 ANK 300Bs (single and parallel single ended), VAC PHI 200, Pass XA 30.8 and VAIC (Mastersound made) 32B. A distant second was the 32B. I found that lower powered amps just couldnt deliver on this speaker and the 32Bs did run out of steam after a time, leaving the VAC a close 3rd. I found the Pass a poor mate to this speaker. |
I am not at all sure the McIntosh separates are at all lush. I would not hesitate to purchase the Devore O/6 for many reasons. You can now or in the future buy a nice low power tube amp to drive them. That would make a huge difference. DeHavilland makes some stunning amplifiers. Sophia Electric are wonderful. Both are full and rich with solid bass. Build your system arounc these speakers and you will be rewarded. |
Yes it was in Allen. I got it after the price reduction, so all in all not a bad deal. Looking at some ARC preamp / amp options on Audiogon / Audiomart, but nothing's coming up as a screaming buy right now. Will hit those folks up and see what their suggestions are as well. Thanks for that. My room is 20' x 16' with a 13' ceiling, so thinking a low wattage tube amp might be a bit underpowered. Really happy with the speakers though... they have an ability to completely disappear. Imaging is really good. |
@yatra86 -- congratulations! The Proacs 48Rs are pretty awesome. If the seller lives in Allen, then it's the same guy. When I last checked his ad on craigslist, he had dropped the asking price by $1000 ... I'm hoping you didn't pay his original asking price :) Also, I have no doubt that the speakers sound great in your setup. It was not my place to tell the original owner how awful the speakers sounded in his room, but my god it was horrible! I couldn't believe someone would spend over ten grand on amazing speakers and pair them with components that do not compliment them, and not give any thought to positioning. Based on my research (when I was seriously considering the Proacs), these tend to pair well with tube amplification. Talk to @jjss49 or @milpai, I think both own Proacs and have taken the effort to set them up properly. They can surely point you in the right direction. |
This thread got me curious about comparing the Cary SLI-80HS (40w push/pull in triode mode) currently in my 2nd system against the LM805ia (48w SET) with my O/96 speakers. I did this today and frankly the Cary sounds horrible in comparison with the Line Magnetic - 2 dimensional, lack of dynamic range, no textures, no nuance. I was actually shocked. And perhaps just as shocking is the fact that the Cary sounds much better paired with my Klipsch Forte III's than it does with the O/96's which cost $10K more. With this said the LM/Devore combo is still substantially better than the Cary/Klipsch combo but the experience was really interesting. Synergy is a funny thing. ;-) |
My O/96's sounded ok but not quite "right" when paired with a Pass XA30.8. However when I moved to a Line Magnetic 805ia 48W SET they simply came alive, especially when set a no negative feedbackAs is stated in the article I linked from our website, any time the two technologies are mixed (power paradigm amp with a voltage paradigm speaker or vice versa) you are likely to get a tonal aberration. This is because the two camps take a different means to neutrality. The voltage camp is based entirely on the idea of flat frequency response, the power camp is based on the idea that the distortion caused by the use of feedback (which is all higher ordered harmonics and IMD) is going to be more audible as brightness and harshness. No speaker is going to be flat regardless of the amplifier used. So keeping the distortion inaudible is regarded as more important. The thing is, the output impedance of the amp affects where the crossover points are as well. For example if the output impedance of the amp is low, a choke in series with the woofer will cause the highs to roll out. But if the amplifier impedance is high, the roll out frequency will be moved up significantly, possibly a couple of octaves! This is why many loudspeakers meant for amps with a high output impedance will have level controls for the mids and highs, since the voltage response of the amp is an unknown. Those controls are there to set the speaker to flat (and not to tune it to the room, like I used to think when I was a kid). |
Regarding the o/96; I've seen this speaker work quite well but in every case its been paired to a tube amp with a fairly high output impedance (IOW no loop feedback). Speakers that work with that sort of amplifier tend to operate on a slightly different principle as they are expecting something more like constant power out of the amp rather than constant voltage. Such a speaker likely won't sound right on a solid state amp, or a tube amp with enough feedback to behave as a voltage source. For more information see http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html |
Good timing for the completion of my new listening space and a possible upgrade to the larger O/96! I'm not holding my breath, because he keeps releases until he's convinced he can do no better. One of the reasons I have respect DeF. For those that are interested, JD has increased his online presence with his Facebook page, and video's covering different audio enthusiast topics on his YouTube channel. Best wishes with your pursuits everyone and arafiq congrats on pulling the trigger on a great speaker! |
@keithr Before I demoed the O/96 this past July, I spoke to Mr. Devore about the timing of any future upgrade since the same model has been out there for over a decade and I didn't want to get burned. He told me, yes there is a 2nd gen in the works and most likely would be released in the latter half of 2021. So there you have it. Anyone interested in an update to that, just call him, he picks up the phone directly. |
Prof, having owned various Devore speakers for over 12 years, with a dozen or more amps coming through my house in two systems (now one), I agree with you. Perhaps my point is better stated that- To me, the amp will define the sound you get from this speaker more than other speakers I've had. If you think all amps sound the same, just as some believe all cables sound the same, you will find my statement pointless. |
Yes, I think if someone gets a bigger soundstage and/or better imaging after adding a new DAC, its often more about the DAC than the speaker. Particularly with easy to pair speakers like the O’s. I have a Lampizator DAC and Line Magnetic SET amp that in their own right are very good at these aspects, and in *my* space the O’s didn’t soundstage/image as well *relative* to some other speakers. It just seem like this is not one of their inherent strengths - which is not to say that they can’t pass through strengths/weaknesses in the electronics (as @fsonicsmith heard!). It’s a bit of an additive process in my mind. DAC A adds 3 points of soundstage vs DAC B, Amp A adds another 2 points, and the speakers add another X points. I don’t think that the O’s contribute a lot given their inherent design though placement seems to help. I think that it’s maybe easier to pair the O’s with amps than it is to pair them with the room. Not that they aren’t otherwise amazing speakers! |
As to amps and the Devore speakers: John Devore said his goal in designing speakers was to make them as amplifier agnostic as possible. Which is why he keeps the impedance an easy load. He saw this as a competitive advantage in a marketplace where many speakers present difficult loads and might not show their best unless you used just the right amp. He wanted his speakers to shine with everything from lower powered tubes, to solid state. This was especially true of the O series. So the idea that you need just the right amp to make the Devore speaker shine doesn't make too much sense from the very way they are designed. And anecdotally, as I mentioned, I've heard the O series on a variety of amp topologies and they sounded excellent and similar on each. I'm sure you can change the flavor to taste re SS vs tubes, but you shouldn't need any heroic search for "just the right amp pairing" to make them sound good. |
Wasn't this supposed to be a DeVore thread? Well I have an urgent news bulletin-the O/93's DO soundstage depth! Who knew? I thought I had great vinyl rigs that were dialed in. I knew my AMR DP777 was not replicating the SQ of my turntables. So I figured that was that. Yesterday I installed a new DAC, an SW1X DAC II Special with USB to SPDIF converter built in. For those that don't know, it is a non-oversampling 44.1Khz only design not altogether different from Audio Note UK's designs though the proprietor says that there are differences. No mass produced stuff here-this DAC is hand-built to order. But to the point (Prof I hope you see this) I now have soundstage depth and it sounds organic. I take everything I said about the limitations of the O/93 back. Besides depth, the bass has more foundation and imaging is first-rate. It was a matter of source, not loudspeaker limitation. I stand corrected.Same experience here. Width yes. Depth no. These are my everyday loudspeaker. No loudspeaker does it all. An argument can be made that the O/93 is more refined and balanced than the O/96. A cogent argument at that. If I had a larger room, I would choose the O/96's. To heck with "refined", the O/96's make you want to dance. |
So after a lot of hemming and hawing, I finally decided to pull the trigger on a used pair of Sonus Faber Olympica II. I compared the Olympica Nova II with the old ones, although not in the same location, and honestly couldn't tell much of a difference. I might be the only one, but I also think the old ones look more classy and elegant. It was a tough decision between the SF and SHL5+, but I have lusted over the Sonus Fabers' for a long time and it's an itch I just had to scratch. So here we are! The speakers will arrive next week. I will initially run them with my Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II amp, and based on what I hear I'll decide if it's enough amp for the speakers or maybe look at other options like McIntosh. Slippery slope ahead .... |
@jjss49 Thanks, man. I'm really intrigued by the Proac D48Rs. Despite the less than stellar audition today, the clarity and vocals were actually very impressive. I agree that tubes are probably going to make a big impact. I'm also considering a used pair of Sonus Faber Olympica II (not Nova), since lots of used ones are in the market at reasonable prices. As of today, these are the two three contenders ... 1. Harbeth SHL5+ 2. Sonus Faber Olympica II 3. Proac D48R -- i know this is probably more different than the other two but I really loved the looks and vocals. Definitely something different. At some point, I need to get rid of my analysis paralysis and make a decision. |
@arafiq i have d30r’s - lovely speaker... but very different presentation than harbeth shl5 - proac needs good tubes to calm the hotter treble and give full ness to the lean mid bass... so actually kind of inverse tonally of the harbeths but once system is tuned to the proacs, they are an absolutely brilliant alternative to harbeths in my main rig i alternate between: harbeth c7 or super 5 -- driven by hegel h390 proac d30 r -- driven by cj et5 linestage into arc vt50 or vt100-2 you should know alan shaw voices harbeths with hegel amps whereas stewart tyler voices proacs with arc tube gear (your guy with d48r’s driven by class d is deaf - lugging his ferrari thru the burger king drive through on 87 octane) |
@jjss49 Thanks, and yes I am quit aware that Harbeth's don't excel at rock and roll, which is absolutely not a requirement for me :) BTW, I saw a local ad for Proac D48R and figured I should check it out. So I went to his house a few hours ago to see if I'd like them. From what I understand the retail price was $10,900 in 2016, and the buyer is asking for $6200. I don't know if this is a good price for Proac or not. I do like the fact that I don't have to pay for shipping, and the speakers are pretty much in pristine condition. However, the important point is that the D48R did not bowl me over. Having said that, I don't want to give up on them just yet for various reasons. First of all, the seller's room was far from perfect. The toe-in was a little too extreme, he was driving them with some PS Audio Class D amplification, and the speakers were about 2-3 feet away from the front wall. One of the couches was too close to the right speaker. From what I've heard, these speakers prefer tubes, and can be very picky about upstream components. Now what I did like was the vocals and soundstage. The midrange was not as magical as the Harbeths, but they were also not too 'in your face' like some Focals. I don't want to write them off because of acoustic shortcomings of the room or associated gear. I would love to hear from someone who owns, or has owned, the Proac D48Rs. |
To follow up, the Verity speakers are rather expensive- you can find a used Parsifal Encore for around $6-8k. The new Parsifals are over $20k. I'm in the Leben facebook group and the shl5 seems very popular among owners of the CS600 tube integrated. My last thought is- speakers that I've always wanted to hear, but there are no dealers anywhere near MA, is the Tannoy Arden and Cheviot- both seem like contenders on the warmish and engaging side. Best of luck! |
@arafiq shl5’s should be fine for that room... just know that no harbeth is a true rock and roll speaker... other makes definitely better suited for very high spl’s super high slam bang music your room is big but what really matters is your listening triangle and how far you will be from the speakers in your prime listening position the other option of course is the gigantic monitor 40... it will definitely fill your room, but it has its disadvantages, the main one being its somewhat ridiculous form factor... sound is impeccable though |
@bjesien Thank you for the recommendation. I had actually never heard of Verity Audio before this. Went to their website but there's no mention of the price. For now, I'm planning to use Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum II but will be getting another tube integrated down the line -- possibly Line Magnetic or Primaluna. |
@big_greg: Thank you for reminding me how great the KEF Ref 1 are. Let me ask you this ... is there anything about the SHL5+ that you miss, any regrets? I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on SHL5+ but wondering how the might perform in my media room which is 20 W x 25 L x 12 H. The speakers will be placed along the shorter (20W) wall. Do you guys think the speakers, with the possible addition of a sub or two, are enough for this room? |
In my audio journey, I had to make enough mistakes to realize what kind of sound I’d come to enjoy within my budget. My path was to assemble systems based on components that I’d demo’d read about or purchased from dealers after 2 hour sessions. In around 2000, I helped a friend with an audio business. That was an eye-opening experience because I could listen to and sometimes live with gear that was in all the magazines. It’s incredibly difficult and expensive to “have it all”. To chase a live sounding system that’s transparent, dynamic, full range, and capable of playing at concert levels is impossible, but people are trying to do it! Most need to compromise. I’ve seen people try to put a $5k integrated on a pair of $100,000 Wilson’s. It doesn’t work- it makes you run the other direction as the volume goes up. Wilson makes fantastic speakers. My own solution is great, fairly efficient speaker, because I enjoy the musicality of low powered class A and tube amplification. Such a system has limitations but if I can have excellent transparency, close to full range, non fatiguing sound with acoustic and amplified instruments, electronica, rock, rap, etc, I’m on the right path for me. I haven’t heard the Harbeth in question but if you like the Sonus Faber and want a little more liveliness you might try the middle line of Verity Audio. They make great sounding, efficient, tube friendly speakers that will play anything. Will you be looking to buy the ideal amp for whatever speaker you get or will that come with time? |
@bjesien So far I've listened to Harbeth SHL5+, Focal Kanta, Devore O96, KEF Reference 1, Sonus Faber Olympica Nova II, Proac (can't remember the exact model), and B&W 802D. I have already crossed out Kanta, Proac and B&W 802D from my list. They were awesome and competent speakers but I just couldn't connect emotionally. I have not heard Focal Sopra yet, which I heard are much smoother compared to Kanta. Other than SF and Harbeth, the one that came closest was KEF Ref 1. |
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Here's an excerpt from Stereohile regarding HL5+'s measurements ... The Harbeth is specified as having a sensitivity of 86dB/W/m, and my estimate of its voltage sensitivity was the same: 86dB(B)/2.83V/m. Though this is 1dB or so below average, I commend Harbeth for not inflating this specification. Although the Super HL5plus has a specified impedance of 6 ohms, my measurement (fig.1) indicates that the speaker's impedance remains above 8 ohms for almost all of the audioband, and that the electrical phase angle remains relatively small. The HL5plus will therefore be an easy load for the partnering amplifier to drive, and a good match for tubed designs. |
Yesterday I went to the house of a local seller who has listed his Harbeth Super HL5+ for sale. Suffice to say I was totally underwhelmed. I don't know if it was his setup (some Line Magnetic tube amp) or room, but I just found the sound to be bland. I have had P3esr's for more than two years now, so I'm quite familiar with the Harbeth sound. I was expecting a bigger, more expansive scale which was completely missing. Based on what I've read about the speakers, I'm inclined to think it must have been the setup. Also, despite the size I think pairing them with a subwoofer is almost a necessity if you want to venture outside of jazz or classical at all. Any owners of SHL5+ please feel free to chime in if you feel that my impressions are way off target. The reason I say this is because when I first got the P3esr's I was similarly disappointed, but after pairing them with a Cronus Magnum II they have become one of my favorite all time speakers. |
mquery,Same experience here. Width yes. Depth no. These are my everyday loudspeaker. No loudspeaker does it all. An argument can be made that the O/93 is more refined and balanced than the O/96. A cogent argument at that. If I had a larger room, I would choose the O/96's. To heck with "refined", the O/96's make you want to dance. |
I was auditioning the same two speakers you were and also the Joseph Audio, along with Vivid speakers. I heard the same as people have described with the Harbeth and DeVores, I ended up with a pair of KEF Reference Series speakers. I felt they blended the best of both the Harbeth and DeVores. The are a lot different sounding than the little KEFs everyone is crazy about. |
mquery, I was never able to get a lot of depth from the soundstage of the O/93 in auditions (even though they were well away from the back wall). The "wall of sound" seems to be a fairly consistent take on that speaker (though I did find that the imaging was quite good - specific enough to satisfy me). I've heard the O/96s do nice depth, they they too tend to draw things closer to the listener vs many other more sound-stagey speakers. |
