Denafrips Pontus *15th* ?

The Terminator 15th is listed on the Denafrips site at $6,099.00 - a 24% increase.

They should have given it a new name this time..the Penetrator dac, new and improved....Costs 24%more, but comes with more girth and length...the Penetrator...the d..d...d...dac you've always wanted. Oh yeah...

not the one calling the shots at Denafrips, he knows most likely this is not recieved well by Westerners, but FYI culturally it's common practice in China

Don't you have some new TV, phone, etc model every year Westerner? It seems you are not that culturally different from Chinese guys.

FWIW, the people that have bought this Laiv DAC are not corroborating those claims, yes they say it's a good DAC but not a giant killer like some reviewers have claimed.  

Check out the Laiv Harmony DAC review.  The Harmony bested the Terminator Plus and Terminator Plus 12th at half the cost.  It is today's Giant-Slayer that the original Terminator was when it first arrived many years ago.  

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/laiv-audio-harmony-dac/

I think it’s pretty obvious that something is going on behind the seen at Vineshine and Denafrips. But, at this point it’s only rumors. We can continue to speculate all we want but until some sort of formal announcement is made it remains speculation, which we all know easily gets out of hand on Audiogon (and other sites.) If you’re planning to buy a Denafrips product or sell one that you already have, it’s probably best to just wait until the dust settles.

@tds3371 Me as well.

Below is the email reply from Alvin which I received yesterday. I highlighted how the current lack of transparency over the 15th situation was not doing either Denafrips or Vinshine any favours, or words to that affect:

Good day.
Indeed, I understand that the current situation is not ideal for Vinshine Audio. DENAFRIPS released the 15th in an unplanned manner. We could only wait for the public announcement from DENAFRIPS.

True - it is speculation at this point.

Re: the guy who started Laiv; just read he was Alvin's lieutenant at Vinshine, not a Denafrips employee as per my earlier post.

@classic8 I agree wholeheartedly, but we maybe jumping the gun. The signs are ominous, but it's just speculation at this point. 

Very sad news because Alvin has been instrumental to the success of Denafrips.

@painter24 I thought so, too - but Alvin has always been a straight shooter with me when it comes to audio. I sense he’s as interested in helping fellow audiophiles as he is making a sale (he’s dissuaded me from purchasing a DDC - said the benefits wouldn’t be worth the expenditure in my set-up). Incidentally, I AM looking into the Laiv Harmony.

@tds3371 Wow! That is odd. Isn't the guy who started Laiv an ex-Denafrips man? Or have I imagined that?

This may explain why, in a recent e-mail correspondence with Alvin (Chee) re: upgrading my Denafrips Pontus II, he recommended I look into the Laiv Harmony DAC.

I had been interested in upgrading my Pontus 2 to the Terminator 2 12th, listed at $4,914.47 on the Vinshine site (now listed as "Out of Stock). The Terminator 15th is listed on the Denafrips site at $6,099.00 - a 24% increase.

@fthompson251 this did cross my mind too to be honest, as you can "Shop" and check out via the Denafrips site still

JMHO but I think Dinafrips is dumping Vinshine and going it on their own. Vinshine is out of stock on every Dinafrips component they sell, DAC, Pre and Power Amps. clocks, DDC’s etc.

Just to add; I've just checked Vinshine's site and all the DDC's are showing as out of stock too 🤔

@pc527 

I don't understand what's happening with Denafrips. I emailed Vinshine over the weekend; Alvin replied yesterday and basically said Vinshine are waiting for a public announcement by Denafrips, and that the 15th were released in an "unplanned manner"

I agree with you, the lack of transparency is very frustrating. What's happening is confusing; I've had the 15th for 2 weeks now, so the fact that customers are receiving 12th-1 models on later orders, with still no official word on the launch of 15th is disgruntling 

 @painter24 you are fortunate to have received the 15th version. Per Mike at Denafrips, "the Pontus15 can reach the level of the Venus12th". I, on the other hand, wasn't so lucky. I received my silver Pontus II 12th-1 last Thursday from Vinshine Audio, the day I discovered your post here. Long story short, I managed to get $300 off the retail price for receiving a late-model Pontus from Vinshine. I just wished there was more transparency upfront. I would have happily paid the full retail price for the latest model. Lesson learned. 

All the Denfrips Dacs on the Vinshine site are " Out of Stock".

@fynnegan you could well be right; I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage, with no official word or info on the full change log from Denafrips/Vinshine

It may very well be they are forced to make new versions, many parts have become obsolete during the recent years. Several Nichicon and Elna capacitors not to mention many chips are not manufactured anymore and their prices have risen tremendously. I’m a pessimist and believe it’s about cost rather than quality.

I have an "original" Pontus II (so no 12th or other numbers involved) and I very much enjoy it. Purchased it new a few years back and always felt it was a really good deal for the money.

But I don't think I will be purchase anything else from Denafrips in light of the constant stream of updates. It's hard to keep track of, and seems to tank the resale value of prior models. I fully realize that a DAC is a depreciating asset but even so, this behavior really accelerates the process. 

On the flip side, those shopping on the second hand market for a great DAC will benefit greatly from this. But I don't think that's a bragging point for Denafrips to be proud of. 

The situation reminds me of Audio GD if anyone is familiar with that brand. I was a big fan back in the day, but things went sideways when they started "upgrading" models every 9 months, and the naming conventions were absurd. I got off that train and never looked back. 

Seems like the noise has died off pretty quickly.  I remember when the 12th edition came out the rumbling went on for quite some time.  Also seems very strange that no “official” announcement about the 15th has been issued here or anywhere else that I’m aware of.  The last time Alvin jumped on things pretty quickly.  It’s been over a week since this first surfaced and the only response has been that everyone’s on a business trip, lol.

Fred

I thought you had that combo, and glad to hear your experience. Good luck on the preamp, my new Aric Audio Motherlode XL has showed me how much a great preamp can tie a system together.

@vthokie83 

I am using the Venus II and Hermes combination via I2s and it's pretty damn good. I also updated the firmware to the latest, I feel I am not missing out either. These DAc's are really good for the money. I like using the Hermes as the source switch as i have coaxial, USB and AES all connected and still take advantage of the I2s on the Venus.  I also have considered the Terminator and also the Lampizator Balic 4, maybe in the future. But I want to get a tube pre amp first.

audiostick

Possibly not, but I did no do a direct comparison of the Pontus II to the Venus II.....I already had the Iris/Pontus combination set up, and wanted to see if the Venus II beat it; and for me it did not. The friend that owns the Venus that I borrowed, did prefer the Venus over the Pontus in a heads up comparison.

Compare pricing: Denafrips Pontus II 15th $1,800 + Denafrips Iris $550 = $2,350; versus $3,060 for a Venus.....so for me not only was the sonic signature better, but the price difference is $700.

Now will that be the case for everyone certainly not, I have heard several who prefer the Venus II (including my friend).....and maybe if I was doing a Pontus/Venus comparison straight up, I might as well.

I also know several people have other brands of DACs and use the Iris (or the higher up Hermes) with their DACs.....particularly Musician and Gustard which have I2S inputs. Hope this helps a bit

@vthokie83 If you were not using the Iris, would you still prefer Pontus to Venus with your system?

A couple of points as a long time Denafrips Pontus II owner

(1) I am one who directly compared a Pontus II/Iris DDC combination versus the Venus in my system....and preferred the Pontus II/Iris combo using an I2S connection. A Pontus II (whichever model it is) is just a unique DAC that is incredibly musical, fun, and engaging. Is it the most detailed and revealing? No, but R2R ladder DACs don't tend to be; if that's what's important, buy a Chord DAC. To me, the Pontus just happens to be a unicorn at it's modest price, and one that performs way over it's purchase price would indicate.

In the past 6 months I've upgraded a pair of speakers (Clayton Shaw Caladans), a preamp (Aric Audio Motherlode XL), and two amplifiers (Aric Audio Transcend EL34 "Push Pull" and SS CODA S5.5); and still do not feel that the 2+ year old Pontus II is limiting me. Will I upgrade? Of course, as I am constant pursuit of better SQ. Right now my short list is a Denafrips Terminator Plus, and whatever LampiZator I can afford.....but that's some serious coin.

(2) As to the constant updates to the Pontus (and all of Denafrips DACs), it is a two way street. Yes the updates to the naming convention could (and do) cause a stir and possibly affect resell, but personally I am happy that Denafrips is constantly trying to improve what are already great DACs. Would I be happier if they just left well enough alone and weren't evolving? No, I'd probably knock them for that

Since I've owned the DAC, Denafrips (via Vinshine Audio), have put forth a bunch of firmware updates for the DAC....some of which have been nice upgrades (some not so much to my ear).

The practice of launching new versions so often is a little annoying, especially if you’re someone who bought a 12th. Correct me if I’m wrong, I think the 12th versions were launched in 2022 followed by the 12th-1’s in early 2023, and now the 15th versions May/June 2024.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, I’ve never heard a Pontus of any iteration prior to ordering a new Pontus 12th-1, and of course I was sent the 15th instead, so I have no way of comparing and contrasting the 12th-1 with the 15th. But, I suspect as @marco1 suggests, I doubt the difference would be significant, probably a refinement rather than a major update.

I’ve never bought a new Denafrips DAC prior to this; the 2 Ares units I’ve had (Ares II and Ares 12th-1) were both bought pre-loved, 2 or 3 years apart, and sold on at close to what I paid for them, so personally i don’t feel burnt as someone who bought a 12th, and then the 12th-1 was launched not long after.

Admittedly, I’m not someone who feels I have to have the new model of something whatever it may be, if I already own a previous model, but I know and appreciate some people do feel compelled to.

Unfortunately for us in the US and Europe who enjoy these products, this practice seems to be the norm with manufacturers in China/Asia, SMSL for example seem to have new DAC every 5 minutes (I vaguely remember a YT video by Jay’s Iyagi (spelling?) about this very issue. The focus of the video was that he felt the situation had gotten so ridiculous, that he wasn’t going to buy or review anymore of these DACs from the likes of SMSL, Topping etc)

At the end of the day, we’re not compelled or forced to buy any of these products. If for example a new Denafrips DAC was launched in the near future, say an 15th-1, or an 18th say, would I buy it? Big nope. From what I’ve heard of my Pontus 15th, I wouldn’t feel the need to, it is a lovely sounding DAC, and we know these new iterations are not major updates/upgrades but refinements which may be should be "silent" rather rather than launching new versions

Just my thoughts 👍

@marco1 unfortunately for me, I'm pretty finicky when it come to my audio gear thats why I thought I would just buy a new unit this time.. but when there are so many upgrades in the line up, it even takes away the worth of the older models.. for me it's the principal of it.. I don't like when a company does that. I understand the upgrade path, I'm in this hobby for more than 40 years. Why should there be that many upgrades in such a short span of time.. If theres not much difference in the sound quality after a few upgrades, why bother. Thats the way I feel about it.. 

@grpkmp if you’re that concerned with resale buy a used model.  Quite frankly I think you will be hard pressed to hear much of a difference between a recent version Pontus II and Pontus 15th, if you hear any difference at all.

From the Denafrips site, it states they have used silver wiring internally, and upgraded firmware for the FPGA chip. I think someone else posted some spec changes

There may be more than this of course

Has anyone figured out the differences between the 12 and the 15?

Hi, I don't post on forums much but I was looking to purchase a Denafrips 12th anniversary dac in the very near future and came across this thread.. I emailed Alvin a couple of weeks ago asking for advise for which Denafrips dac to purchase, his answer was the Pontus ll would be an excellent choice for my audio system.. With all the updates with the Pontus ll in what seems like the very recent past and now a 15th addition? I have now become wary to make a Pontus purchase.. I've owned a Chord Qutest dac a couple of years back and it did sound wonderful in my main system but thought it was time for a change for no other reason then to try something new.. The Qutest hasn't had an upgrade in years and the Pontus just came out with its 5th iteration (if my count is correct) with the model 15th. I've read all the comments in this thread and I'm no longer getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about a Pontus purchase.. How long is the 15th going to be around? What's the resale value of my purchase gonna be in a year or two? I have purchased two sets of HifiMan headphones in the past which now seems to be near worthless after just a few years.. I'm done with them and told them as much.. What other dac is available in the Pontus price range or is there any?

@audiostick hi, I already had the Iris 12th, which I was feeding the Ares 12th-1. I've read multiple times that a Pontus and Iris pairing takes you almost to the Venus, so I went with the Pontus. I also had earmarked money for other HiFi stuff, such as new speaker cables

@soix  Yes, I have noticed the Pontus - Iris buzz as well, but since my current streamer does not feature USB, it would not benefit me at this time.

@audiostick I’ve read that some people prefer the Pontus with a DDC over the Venus and allows use of the i2S connection.  Just another (and maybe cheaper) option to consider.  FWIW.

@painter24 

May I ask why you chose Pontus vs Venus?  Was it purely $?  I have asked Vinshine for guidance based on my system, but no reply.  I do believe that there is a point of no return.

though used Denafrips are going to be very good value now...

@pwdmark agreed, Alvin is a good guy, he's not the one calling the shots at Denafrips, he knows most likely this is not recieved well by Westerners, but FYI culturally it's common practice in China. I sold my Terminator II last year and bought a Lampizator Baltic V4, very happy with it. Would buy a Denafrips product IF resale value wasn't an issue for me, otherwise no.

Love Alvin. Honest, open, thorough.. BUT! When they began this model of the month.. NO WAY! Now... it has created a different used market if you want a DEAL on say a Terminator, cuz due to the marketing design they are employing... A 5 year old Terminator isn't worth much to most!
Sold mine and moved on. The complete opposite of other non ChiFi manufacturers. 
Some NEVER change a model. Upgrades should be a additional model. Imagine their used market. You would have to study a while to know what you are after...
And for Chinese HiFi??? NO, No, No!
Pride off ownership??? Are you proud of your 5K Chinese DAC?
There are so many good DAC's out there... And sure $28K for a Lampizator or $14K for a Mola Mola is a lot, but I assure you they don't butcher product lines to sell more product.

Just a quick update on the Pontus 15th

After 24hrs, not much change from initial power-up; some nice things going on - as mentioned, bass was tightening up with greater definition

After 48hrs - Meh! Just sounded all over the place, a bit of a hot mess

After 72hrs things settled back down again, bass a little tighter, micro parts like light cymbal taps and hits coming more to the fore and stand-out

After 96hrs - more if the same with a greater sense of the ambience of recordings. Spaces between notes are palpable if that makes sense.

Bass seems to be the stand out at the moment though; I have bass traps in either corner of my room behind and to the side of my speakers, but was still having some residual bloom. This seems to have almost disappeared in contrast to how it was with the Ares 12th-1. I’m a little tentative on this aspect as I know it’s relatively early days and probably have a ways to go yet, but it’s certainly positive and promising right now

@audiostick on the top banner on the Denafrips webpage, at least when I looked yesterday, it features only the Pontus and Terminator as having 15th versions at the moment. I'm sure the Venus will get the same treatment eventually 

Does anyone know if there will be a Venus 15th in the near future?  There is no mention of it on the Denafrips website.

What happened to 13th and 14th?

I've received a response from Alvin re: the 15th versions;

Good day!
My apologies for the late reply. I am currently on a business trip with limited internet access.

Pontus 15th is the latest variant. You're one of the lucky customers who received it :) More details will be shared by the DENAFRIPS team soon!

It’s very strange that there wasn’t some kind of announcement of this new version as communication has been usually excellent with this company in my experience. I have had my Pontus II 3 years and have been extremely happy with it.

It seems you have to go to the “Buy Now” link on the Denafrips website to see the reference to the Pontus 15th as well as other 15th models. This brings up another interesting factoid in that pricing which appears to be in US dollars on the Denafrips website differs from the Vinshine website S$ price after it is converted to US dollars. Would also seem like Vinshine and Denafrips have to get on the same page regarding both the model numbers and pricing.