Denafrips Pontus *15th* ?

@fynnegan you could well be right; I wouldn't rule anything out at this stage, with no official word or info on the full change log from Denafrips/Vinshine

All the Denfrips Dacs on the Vinshine site are " Out of Stock".

 @painter24 you are fortunate to have received the 15th version. Per Mike at Denafrips, "the Pontus15 can reach the level of the Venus12th". I, on the other hand, wasn't so lucky. I received my silver Pontus II 12th-1 last Thursday from Vinshine Audio, the day I discovered your post here. Long story short, I managed to get $300 off the retail price for receiving a late-model Pontus from Vinshine. I just wished there was more transparency upfront. I would have happily paid the full retail price for the latest model. Lesson learned. 

@pc527 

I don't understand what's happening with Denafrips. I emailed Vinshine over the weekend; Alvin replied yesterday and basically said Vinshine are waiting for a public announcement by Denafrips, and that the 15th were released in an "unplanned manner"

I agree with you, the lack of transparency is very frustrating. What's happening is confusing; I've had the 15th for 2 weeks now, so the fact that customers are receiving 12th-1 models on later orders, with still no official word on the launch of 15th is disgruntling 

Just to add; I've just checked Vinshine's site and all the DDC's are showing as out of stock too 🤔

JMHO but I think Dinafrips is dumping Vinshine and going it on their own. Vinshine is out of stock on every Dinafrips component they sell, DAC, Pre and Power Amps. clocks, DDC’s etc.

@fthompson251 this did cross my mind too to be honest, as you can "Shop" and check out via the Denafrips site still

I had been interested in upgrading my Pontus 2 to the Terminator 2 12th, listed at $4,914.47 on the Vinshine site (now listed as "Out of Stock). The Terminator 15th is listed on the Denafrips site at $6,099.00 - a 24% increase.

This may explain why, in a recent e-mail correspondence with Alvin (Chee) re: upgrading my Denafrips Pontus II, he recommended I look into the Laiv Harmony DAC.

@tds3371 Wow! That is odd. Isn't the guy who started Laiv an ex-Denafrips man? Or have I imagined that?

@painter24 I thought so, too - but Alvin has always been a straight shooter with me when it comes to audio. I sense he’s as interested in helping fellow audiophiles as he is making a sale (he’s dissuaded me from purchasing a DDC - said the benefits wouldn’t be worth the expenditure in my set-up). Incidentally, I AM looking into the Laiv Harmony.

Very sad news because Alvin has been instrumental to the success of Denafrips.

Re: the guy who started Laiv; just read he was Alvin's lieutenant at Vinshine, not a Denafrips employee as per my earlier post.

@classic8 I agree wholeheartedly, but we maybe jumping the gun. The signs are ominous, but it's just speculation at this point. 

True - it is speculation at this point.

Below is the email reply from Alvin which I received yesterday. I highlighted how the current lack of transparency over the 15th situation was not doing either Denafrips or Vinshine any favours, or words to that affect:

Good day.
Indeed, I understand that the current situation is not ideal for Vinshine Audio. DENAFRIPS released the 15th in an unplanned manner. We could only wait for the public announcement from DENAFRIPS.

@tds3371 Me as well.

I think it’s pretty obvious that something is going on behind the seen at Vineshine and Denafrips. But, at this point it’s only rumors. We can continue to speculate all we want but until some sort of formal announcement is made it remains speculation, which we all know easily gets out of hand on Audiogon (and other sites.) If you’re planning to buy a Denafrips product or sell one that you already have, it’s probably best to just wait until the dust settles.

Check out the Laiv Harmony DAC review.  The Harmony bested the Terminator Plus and Terminator Plus 12th at half the cost.  It is today's Giant-Slayer that the original Terminator was when it first arrived many years ago.  

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/laiv-audio-harmony-dac/

FWIW, the people that have bought this Laiv DAC are not corroborating those claims, yes they say it's a good DAC but not a giant killer like some reviewers have claimed.  

not the one calling the shots at Denafrips, he knows most likely this is not recieved well by Westerners, but FYI culturally it's common practice in China

Don't you have some new TV, phone, etc model every year Westerner? It seems you are not that culturally different from Chinese guys.

The Terminator 15th is listed on the Denafrips site at $6,099.00 - a 24% increase.

They should have given it a new name this time..the Penetrator dac, new and improved....Costs 24%more, but comes with more girth and length...the Penetrator...the d..d...d...dac you've always wanted. Oh yeah...

I am more concerned why they changed the warranty from three years to one year.

@otherworld74 I agree this is a concern; is this an indication that they are going to cut corners?

I've still no idea what is going on with Denafrips/Vinshine; I'm not sure if there actually is a parting of ways, as down in the shipping notes on the Denafrips site, the notes reference Vinshine several times re: EU and UK VAT/Duty, so nope, no idea what's going on.

Regardless, the Pontus II 15th is a lovely, lovely sounding piece of kit. I won't go into hyperbole, except to say it gives everything the Ares 12th-1 did, but much more if it.

The DAC the Ares and now Pontus has kept off my rack since Jan/Feb is the Cen Grand DSDAC 1.0 Super Clock, which converts all PCM to DSD, up to DSD 1024 and a fine DAC, which was almost twice the price of the Pontus; but the Pontus is just streets ahead in terms of emotional engagement compared to the Cen Grand.

I've never owned a previous Pontus version, so can't compare, but the 15th is staying put; no complaints at all 👍

I received an email from Denafrips Europe today, advertising the 15th versions; this is a copy & paste from the email:

"The Enyo 15th matches the sound quality of the Ares 12.1, the Pontus 15th matches the Venus 12.1, and the Terminator 15th matches the T12.1+. The new Ares 15, with major circuit adjustments and two low-phase-noise oscillators, now matches the sound quality of the Pontus 12.1, despite its unchanged size."

Make of that what you will. There's nothing I can see relating to the above statement on the main Denafrips site; it's as it has been for the last couple of weeks or so. Vinshine remains the same; DACs/DDCs out of stock

This whole thing how they’ve handled the launch of the 15th models to how they’ve treated/ghosted Alvin at Vinshine after being such a good ambassador for the Denafrips brand is an utter embarrassment IMO and is making them look like a completely mismanaged company.  By contrast look how LAiV, a brand new company, is handling the launch of their highly-regarded Harmony DAC on all levels.  Frankly I’d look at their DAC before anything at Denafrips right now with their multiple unforced fumbles and seemingly endless/confusing product upgrades.  Nice job Denafrips!

I agree with everything you've said there. It's a sorry state of affairs at Denafrips right now.

I had been looking at the Pontus 12th-1 but am now going to wait til things shake out. In the meantime, I’m trying to understand the current state of affairs, and the post from @painter24 with Denafrips EU email is helpful (but confusing).

From the Denafrips website, the "Pontus 15th" does indeed look like Venus 12th. In fact, compare these two images of the recent Pontus generations:

1. Pontus 15th (Denafrips website) vs Pontus 12th (online image). If you zoom in on the P-15th you’ll see "FVenus 12th" etched onto the board.

2. Now look at the Venus II 12th-1 (Denafrips website). There are design differences with the P-15th...and the etching on the board says "FVenus II".

Is it that Denafrips is importing older Venus tech into the Pontus line? If so, this may explain the lower relative cost of the Pontus 15th vs the Venus II 12th-1. The same strategy might be used for the Enyo and Ares products. If this is the case, then the Pontus 12th-1 that I was planning on buying (now dubbed "Ares 15th") could be more affordable now ($1200 vs $1800). Or the "Venus" line is now more in reach than before (Pontus 15th).

But I won’t be buying anything from Denafrips until they clarify things.

Well spotted; that's really interesting, and hence why Denafrips are saying for example the Pontus 15th is on the same level as the Venus, or words to this affect.

But I agree, they really need to clarify what is going on

What we all thought has been officially announced by Alvin, please see below;

https://youtu.be/ksjgWvRLor0?si=zGpdQFU3lbkUjCQU

@agonomics-sf It looks like the main difference between the P15 and V12 is the clock.  If so, and with current 10% off sale, wonder if P15 is one of the better values for DACs under $2000. Also wonder how both units would compare to the new LAiV Harmony that has been getting excellent reviews and costs $2700.

@classic8 I’m curious where you found the specific details about the difference between the P-15th and V-12th? I had been looking for more information but the Denafrips site doesn’t help much. Plus there are no reviews (unless you speak Vietnamese) on YouTube about the P-15th to help assess it on its own merits, or ideally vs. the Venus 12th and P-12th.

I’be also been disappointed by the lack of head to head comparisons between the Laiv Harmony and these 3 Denafrips DACs. It seems that those reviewers aren’t willing to go on record about how good (or not!) the Harmony is compared to Denafrips DAC, or what the sonic differences are. Is Vinshine selling the Harmony at some point and if so I hope that will encourage the Youpsters to post some credible reviews.

in the meantime I’m saving my ¢’s but am likely to get a Pontus 15th unless some new startling information is released in the next couple of months. If you’re in the same spot I recommend reaching out to a Denafrips dealer on its webpage to see if they will sell and ship to the US. I started exploring this option with Dave Chu (the HK distributor) and he quoted me a lower total price for the P-15th (fedex’d to the US, including customs declaration provided to him by Denafrips).

@agonomics-sf You can compare the internal picture of the P15th to that of the Venus 12th-1 (per Denafrips site). Also they mention tighter tolerance on resistors which matches the Venus. Also note that per the denafrips.eu site a new Venus 15th will be available soon (they told me within 3 weeks).

I just received a new Pontus 15th on Tuesday along with a Iris 12th. I can honestly say this is the best digital I have ever heard. There is absolutely no item that I value in reproduction that has not improved over my formerly Marantz sacd 30n based system. Generally speaking, I've always found that a component can either bring the performers to your listening room or transport you to the event. This Denafrips combo provides the later. Layered soundstage depth, width beyond the speakers, a transparent window. There is simply no area of disappointment. 

Fred Ziffle

@pgoodfield  Congrats!  I’ve got an Iris too and found it to provide significant improvements over running USB directly into my DAC (using the Iris’ i2S output).  Are you using i2S into your Pontus?

For those of you using an Iris, Hermes, or Gaia DDC, are you using those DDCs with a computer or with a streamer? I'm wondering if the benefits of using a DDC are audible when used with a streamer that inherently has less noise.

Ther is probably less benefit the better the source, but that may be true of all sources. I did a good amount of listening without the Iris, direct to the Pontus through the USB and Coax and while the Iris increases the soundstage and details, the Pontus is providing a quality I have not heard until now. The presentation is natural and vivid without being etched or colored. I may be biased because I did purchase the units, but I am happy with it. I've tried the Benchmark and Musical Fidelity. With the Pontus I found a bargain that in my opinion sounds better. Add to that the Iris to clean up my common Mac mini and I'm all set.

For those of you using an Iris, Hermes, or Gaia DDC, are you using those DDCs with a computer or with a streamer? I'm wondering if the benefits of using a DDC are audible when used with a streamer that inherently has less noise.

@calvinandhobbes  I’m using an Iris between my iFi Zen DAC (with iPowerX power supply) and Musician Pegasus DAC and the improvement is palpable to the point where I wouldn’t be without it. 

Thanks @pgoodfield & @soix!

Just ordered a Pontus 15 with a Hermes.

I have been eye balling the Laiv, but in the last two weeks there have been several popping up on the used market & I fully expect that to continue.

Hi guys,

It’s been almost 5 months since receiving my Pontus 15th and started this thread. Initially I was caught up in the confusion re: Denefrips/Vinshine confusion at the time, but nearly 5 months living with the Pontus, coupled with the Iris DDC, just wanted to express how happy the Pontus makes me.

For reference, when I first received it, it was feeding my Marantz Model 30, but not long after I bit the bullet and tried tubes for the first time with the Heaven 11 Billie mkii.

The Marantz combo was lovely, the Pontus was a big step up from the Ares 12th-1 I had, but the addition of the Billie was revaltory for me, being a tube virgin.

The partnership of Pontus and Billie is just marvelous to me, to the point I found I wasn’t visiting audio forums, or looking at components as potential swaps or upgrades, I was just listening 

I won’t go into hyperbole, I’m rubbish at describing how my system sounds, but as things stand I’m one happy camper.

Despite all the confusion and uncertainty around Denafrips and Vinshine that existed when this thread started, I hope everyone who bought a Pontus 15th are not disappointed; to me, it’s the best piece of kit I think I’ve owned.

Thanks guys, and happy listening 🍻

I am selling Denafrips Since Alvin left on his on venture.

i went into detail on the upgrades ,I told them have 4 decades in Audio that only upgrades 

when substantial , they agreed, the Pontus15 is actually last  years Venus12th,

land the Terminstor-15 is the Terminator+ , just cross reference them..

a New bigger better Venus 15 will be out in a Bigger case ,in Nov 

but no Terminator + 15. Meaning the Pontus 15  is a Great deal, as well as the New Terminator 15. Just go to the website and look at the parts the white Evox capacitors which are 4x as much $$, plus .005 resistor tolerances vs the 12th, .001, and bigger 80va transformers and several other bonuses in the Venus.

the Terminator.15 very easy , it now says Flagship and the dual shielded oven clocks 

say right on them Terminator  Plus , from a cost engineering stand point made perfect sense. The Enyo,Ares, and Venus  were redesigned in the 15 th.  This keeps everything up to date ,the DDC  nothing to upgrade here at the moment.

I bought the Iris 12 from audioman58 (audiophile58 on USAudiomart) and I had no issues and he was very helpful since I had no prior experiences with Denafrips or using a DDC. He also is providing a discount from the list prices (I believe). I have no connection with audioman58 nor any financial interest in his commercial enterprise other than being a one time customer. I'm just sharing this because of the concerns expressed above at the loss of Vineshine as a seller for Denafrips.

I got the Iris because (1) there were posts recommending a USB Bridge/reclocker in between the DAC and computer and (2) I had a promotional $500 gift card from a recent satellite provider switch so it essentially didn't cost me anything. 

Last week, I went to a fellow audiophile's home to listen to his speakers and he was using a cheap DAC off of Amazon and was apparently trying out a few of them along with someone else to see if they were all that was needed. He told me that he had an early Ares as well and I asked him to put it into the system because I had never heard any of the Denafrips' DACs. Once he plugged it in, the separation, sound stage and tonal quality of the music improved by a factor (IMO) by about 3 times and the effect was immediate. 

I'm considering changing my DAC because the Iris gives the opportunity to connect to a DAC with i2s. The Pontus 15th is one I'm considering. 

I seem to recall reviewers describing the Venus 12th as voiced more in favor of upper mids and highs than Pontus 12th.

If in fact the new Pontus is more like the Venus 12th, I’d be curious whether its tonality followed suit.

Every comparison I’ve seen so far implies the Pontis 15th is "better in every way", but in practice, this may depend upon one’s sonic priorities.

I’ve never heard a Venus or the previous Pontus versions so can’t compare with my Pontus 15th, but from what I’ve seen on YT this does seem to be the case.

Jay’s Iyagi review of the 15th popped on YT yesterday; he was of the same opinion. His advice or suggestion was to pair the 15th with a neutral or slightly warm system rather than a system already leaning on the bright side to avoid having too much of a good thing.

This would align with the reviews of the Venus 12th; after all, the Pontus 15th is for all intents and purposes, a Venus 12th transferred in to a new case with a few other upgrades as far as I can tell from what others have posted on this thread and elsewhere.

For me personally, the Pontus gels with my preferences, especially since I moved to the Billie Mkii amp into my ATC SCM40’s

@painter24 

Yes. I watched that same Jay's Iyagi review last night. 

It makes sense that tube amplification would be a good match with the Pontus 15th. 

I'm committed to SS amplification so, for me the fact that even current tube DACs seem to be moving in the same sonic direction as the Pontus 15th is frustrating. In fact, this seems to be true of audio as a whole. But that's my problem, not yours.  Enjoy your new DAC!