Received my Denafrips Venus 15th

Glad you like it!  I have a Pontus II 12th and a Hermes ddc that I really love.

@zaxx40 

Now that you have the Venus more than 3 weeks, does it sound smoother and more organic?

Yes very organic. I will be honest that it has been a journey coming from a Venus ii.

Some times I wish it had little bit more edge.LOL. My subjective listening seams to change with the day. 
 

The Venus 15th is extremely smooth. Notsure if it would change the sound but It maybe a time for a DDC if I2S will bring a little more from the combination.
 

Maybe a better streamer as I am using  a Wiim Pro. It would be hard to give up the ease of Wiims software.    

Congratulations on your new Venus 15th. I've had my Terminator 15th for about a month and I just love it. I came from a Venus II as well.  Keep burning it in it just keeps getting better. I got over 600 hours on mine now.

The Venus 15th is extremely smooth. Notsure if it would change the sound but It maybe a time for a DDC if I2S will bring a little more from the combination.
Maybe a better streamer as I am using  a Wiim Pro. It would be hard to give up the ease of Wiims software.

I inserted an Iris DDC before my Musician Pegasus R2R DAC mainly to take advantage of the i2S connection and the improvement was much more than I expected and on the order of a significant DAC upgrade.  Maybe @vthokie83 will chime in as he also uses an Iris with his Pontus so may be an even more useful reference point.  I’d advise buying a used DDC (that’s what I did) so if it doesn’t transform your DAC you can just sell it — thinking a Hermes would be a great choice.  
 

This site is littered with experienced people who’ve upgraded from budget streamers to more accomplished models and are very happy they did, so while I’m sure the Wiim sounds very good for the $ there’s much more to be had and I’d certainly budget for an upgrade there in the future.  Everything in the streaming chain matters, and matters A LOT!  Just my$0.02 FWIW, and best of luck.  

@fthompson251 You might have mentioned this in other post but I couldn't find it.  What other DAC's have you had and how does the new terminator compare?  Is it warm neutral or analytical.

Zaxx40

You are in slightly different territory right now than my and Soix experience, as your Venus 15th DAC already uses the high end OCXO (oven controlled crystal oscillator), and Fred's Terminator 15th uses dual OCXOs. So if you were to add a DDC, it would have to be the Denafrips Hermes or Gaia so you don't downgrade the clock.

Typically (though not always) the DDC sets the clock, and the DAC is the slave to that clock when using I2S. With USB and the other connections, the DAC clock is most frequently used.....in my experience (and a bunch of others), I2S is by far the superior connection. I've found the same in other systems that I've helped friends set up.....using various Denafrips DDCs. The more expensive the streamer, there is possibly less of a need for a DDC; possibly.

Part of the reason that the Pontus is improved with the Iris, as the Iris has a TCXO (temperature compensated crystal oscillator) which is an upgrade from the Pontus' standard FEMTO clock (short for Femtosecond, or one quadrillionth of a second). standard FEMTO clocks are not temperature or oven controlled, so their accuracy varies with temperature changes. The clock upgrade however is only part of the advantages of a DDC.....the Denafrips Iris ONLY has USB inputs; no AES, RCA or optical SPDIF, the Gaia and Hermes allow for those.

The other advantages of a DDC are: isolates the input signal (USB, AES/EBU, RCA or optical SPDIF), converts the signal from digital to analog, filters the signal both galvanically (magnetic) and optically, and re-clocks it with the superior crystal.

Digital devices use I2S internally to transmit data, using I2S to transmit from the DDC to the DAC allows for one less conversion.

If it were me (and I will be upgrading soon), I'd buy an Innuous/Lumin/Aurender/Grimm/etc high end dedicated streamer and see where you land. With one of these high end streamers, you may find you do not need a DDC......and you can always add one later if you wish.

@brbrock  I've owned the Denafrips Venus II before the Terminator 15th for 3 years. My Legacy  Wavelet II also has an internal DAC. I have become accustomed to the R2R sound in comparison and prefer it. I wanted to take advantage of the clock sync feature between my Hermes that I had already mated to the Venus II via I2s before. The Terminator 15th was an easy choice and end game DAC for me. I now have it mated to the Hermes and the BNC Clock cables for the clock sync.

Thanks everyone for your excellent advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to write out your suggestions and comments. I think I like the idea of adding better streamer first. I see Innuous does both does Qobuz and Deezer which are 2 of my music services. Is there any streamers that would also include Amazon HD on addition to the other two?
 

My advice would be to switch to Qobuz — IME the sound is much better and you can do a free trial.  And going with Innuos is a great choice not only for sound quality but also for their outstanding Sense app that will make you miss the Wiim not one bit and likely be a big improvement — some users have even dumped Roon for Sense, which is high praise indeed.  Innuos also offers excellent customer support if needed.  Don’t forget about trying a DDC in the future though as it could well give you a very significant and cost-effective performance boost.  Best of luck. 

zaxx40

Please let us know where you go from here, I'd be interested in hearing about it

Well everyone I thought before i jumped in with an expensive streamer i would try a little experiment. My Venus 15th has the ability to output it’s clock signals. I know these clocks are not the top of the Denafrips  lineup but they must pretty good if they gave us the clock out option. 
 

Really having the itch to try I2S I decided to look at the Denafrips Streamers. They have there budget Arce and the Arcas. Apparently a more expensive version in also in design stages. The Arcas is supposed to sound better than the Arce from what I have read. 
 

I think the Arcas has similar clocks to my Venus 15th.  I wondered if the Arce could sound close to the Arcas if I used the Clocks out  of my Venus 15th 

Needless to say I ordered the Arce and received it today. I had ordered 75ohm bnc cables from Bluejean cables for the clock out and A short HDMI cable for the I2S connection. 
 

The Arce is a very solid little unit and looks great. 
 

i configured both the Arce and the Venus for the clocks and I2S connections. Enabled the Arce in Roon and knowing you have to be careful with the original I2S connection(testing to make sure configs are correct) i decided to try AESBU connection because I am impatient and wanted to see if a streamer could make a difference. 
 

Wow is the first listening impressions I experienced from the very first song. Clarity, air and sound stage improvements were huge. 
 

I will be trying the I2S connection on another day. For now I am going to enjoys my new sound. 
 

I have to wonder if the Arcas would make a greater improvement or is Arce going to be on par utilizing the Venus clocks?  Maybe an Arcas for my Venus ii is in my future. 😀
 

Maybe off topic but has anyone gone from any edition of a Pontus to any of the Venus models? Out of the whole line, those two seems so close that I'm not sure what the extra expenditure get us. I have experience with both of them but never at the same time or in the same system.

My understanding is the new Pontus 15th is the old Venus ii. All version 15th Dacs received a substantial upgrade with Denafrips selling direct to the end user now. 

From what I can gather the Arcas has a better clock, but if you are using the clock sync between the Arce and the Venus 15th then it is taking advantage of the better OCXO clock in you Venus so most likely there would be no advantage of the higher priced Arcas. It looks like everything else is equal? Also it appears that you use 2 BNC  clock cables for 45 and 49 khz clock sync.

@zaxx40   There is a USA Dealer too, @Audioman58 in MA. I got my Terminator 15th from him.

Yes dual cables for clock out of the Venus to the Arce. 
 

Unfortunately I am in Canada so I think it is still cheaper to buy direct. 
 

V fi.....I owned the Pontus II and had the Venus II in my room back to back...To me in my system the Pontus was too dark in its presentation ,Decent sound stage but the Venus II was superior in every way,,Well worth the money to move up in my opinion.I have not heard the new Venus 15th version but have one on order to try..

I too went from Pontus II to Venus II...I upgraded my Eversolo A8 to HiFi Rose 130 transport also. Each step did show wider sound stage, airiness,  more detail, while not being harsh.

One thing I noticed was my I2s doesn't work correctly when I added HiFiRose 130(did work fine when I had Eversolo A8). I now use higher end Transparent Audio digital coaxial cable and works fine but would rather use I2s. Does anyone have advice on how to set the I2s settings in the Venus II?. I know how to do it on Hifi Rose 130.

Also, so going from Venus II to 15th very much worth it or would going up to the Terminator 15th be better choice?

missioncoonery, I agree for me the the Pontus II seemed too dark, rolled off at the top, abit too warm and smaller soundstage.

@vthokie83  great DDC explanation 

ejspain2020

Thank you, it's a complicated subject to be sure. Best to you

The purpose and reasoning for DDC/I2S explained well from above posts.  I'll add its not only clock topology that's important, implementation of these clocks extremely important, this means power supplies must be optimal. What this means is a well implemented  TXCO or Femto clock could outperform a poorly implemented OXCO clock. I should also add the clocks themselves can vary in quality.

Quality of streamer may or may not make a difference, its all about  interface quality/implementation\. Don't automatically assume any or all interfaces within any streamer is optimized to the highest level. A quality DDC unit that optimizes both input and output interfaces, and has optimal clock and clock implementation may  offer superior sound quality vs streamer. And then we have the possible inherent advantage of shorter signal path within dac when using I2S interface (dacs convert any input to I2S), one avoids using other input detour via ddc with I2S out. And then we have to consider how well I2S implemented  DDC vs. dac, is the dac internal I2S equal, superior, inferior to DDC I2S?  All in all there are so many variables at work here, main one is how does DDC I2S compare to the particular dac you're using or contemplating purchasing. I chose the Denafrips Gaia for it's greater potential in providing superior I2S vs most any dacs internal I2S.