Glad you like it! I have a Pontus II 12th and a Hermes ddc that I really love.
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Yes very organic. I will be honest that it has been a journey coming from a Venus ii. Some times I wish it had little bit more edge.LOL. My subjective listening seams to change with the day. The Venus 15th is extremely smooth. Notsure if it would change the sound but It maybe a time for a DDC if I2S will bring a little more from the combination. Maybe a better streamer as I am using a Wiim Pro. It would be hard to give up the ease of Wiims software. |
I inserted an Iris DDC before my Musician Pegasus R2R DAC mainly to take advantage of the i2S connection and the improvement was much more than I expected and on the order of a significant DAC upgrade. Maybe @vthokie83 will chime in as he also uses an Iris with his Pontus so may be an even more useful reference point. I’d advise buying a used DDC (that’s what I did) so if it doesn’t transform your DAC you can just sell it — thinking a Hermes would be a great choice. This site is littered with experienced people who’ve upgraded from budget streamers to more accomplished models and are very happy they did, so while I’m sure the Wiim sounds very good for the $ there’s much more to be had and I’d certainly budget for an upgrade there in the future. Everything in the streaming chain matters, and matters A LOT! Just my$0.02 FWIW, and best of luck. |
@fthompson251 You might have mentioned this in other post but I couldn't find it. What other DAC's have you had and how does the new terminator compare? Is it warm neutral or analytical. |
Zaxx40 You are in slightly different territory right now than my and Soix experience, as your Venus 15th DAC already uses the high end OCXO (oven controlled crystal oscillator), and Fred's Terminator 15th uses dual OCXOs. So if you were to add a DDC, it would have to be the Denafrips Hermes or Gaia so you don't downgrade the clock. Typically (though not always) the DDC sets the clock, and the DAC is the slave to that clock when using I2S. With USB and the other connections, the DAC clock is most frequently used.....in my experience (and a bunch of others), I2S is by far the superior connection. I've found the same in other systems that I've helped friends set up.....using various Denafrips DDCs. The more expensive the streamer, there is possibly less of a need for a DDC; possibly. Part of the reason that the Pontus is improved with the Iris, as the Iris has a TCXO (temperature compensated crystal oscillator) which is an upgrade from the Pontus' standard FEMTO clock (short for Femtosecond, or one quadrillionth of a second). standard FEMTO clocks are not temperature or oven controlled, so their accuracy varies with temperature changes. The clock upgrade however is only part of the advantages of a DDC.....the Denafrips Iris ONLY has USB inputs; no AES, RCA or optical SPDIF, the Gaia and Hermes allow for those. The other advantages of a DDC are: isolates the input signal (USB, AES/EBU, RCA or optical SPDIF), converts the signal from digital to analog, filters the signal both galvanically (magnetic) and optically, and re-clocks it with the superior crystal. Digital devices use I2S internally to transmit data, using I2S to transmit from the DDC to the DAC allows for one less conversion. If it were me (and I will be upgrading soon), I'd buy an Innuous/Lumin/Aurender/Grimm/etc high end dedicated streamer and see where you land. With one of these high end streamers, you may find you do not need a DDC......and you can always add one later if you wish. |
@brbrock I've owned the Denafrips Venus II before the Terminator 15th for 3 years. My Legacy Wavelet II also has an internal DAC. I have become accustomed to the R2R sound in comparison and prefer it. I wanted to take advantage of the clock sync feature between my Hermes that I had already mated to the Venus II via I2s before. The Terminator 15th was an easy choice and end game DAC for me. I now have it mated to the Hermes and the BNC Clock cables for the clock sync. |
Thanks everyone for your excellent advice. I really appreciate you taking the time to write out your suggestions and comments. I think I like the idea of adding better streamer first. I see Innuous does both does Qobuz and Deezer which are 2 of my music services. Is there any streamers that would also include Amazon HD on addition to the other two?
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My advice would be to switch to Qobuz — IME the sound is much better and you can do a free trial. And going with Innuos is a great choice not only for sound quality but also for their outstanding Sense app that will make you miss the Wiim not one bit and likely be a big improvement — some users have even dumped Roon for Sense, which is high praise indeed. Innuos also offers excellent customer support if needed. Don’t forget about trying a DDC in the future though as it could well give you a very significant and cost-effective performance boost. Best of luck. |
Well everyone I thought before i jumped in with an expensive streamer i would try a little experiment. My Venus 15th has the ability to output it’s clock signals. I know these clocks are not the top of the Denafrips lineup but they must pretty good if they gave us the clock out option. Really having the itch to try I2S I decided to look at the Denafrips Streamers. They have there budget Arce and the Arcas. Apparently a more expensive version in also in design stages. The Arcas is supposed to sound better than the Arce from what I have read. I think the Arcas has similar clocks to my Venus 15th. I wondered if the Arce could sound close to the Arcas if I used the Clocks out of my Venus 15th Needless to say I ordered the Arce and received it today. I had ordered 75ohm bnc cables from Bluejean cables for the clock out and A short HDMI cable for the I2S connection. The Arce is a very solid little unit and looks great. i configured both the Arce and the Venus for the clocks and I2S connections. Enabled the Arce in Roon and knowing you have to be careful with the original I2S connection(testing to make sure configs are correct) i decided to try AESBU connection because I am impatient and wanted to see if a streamer could make a difference. Wow is the first listening impressions I experienced from the very first song. Clarity, air and sound stage improvements were huge. I will be trying the I2S connection on another day. For now I am going to enjoys my new sound. I have to wonder if the Arcas would make a greater improvement or is Arce going to be on par utilizing the Venus clocks? Maybe an Arcas for my Venus ii is in my future. 😀
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From what I can gather the Arcas has a better clock, but if you are using the clock sync between the Arce and the Venus 15th then it is taking advantage of the better OCXO clock in you Venus so most likely there would be no advantage of the higher priced Arcas. It looks like everything else is equal? Also it appears that you use 2 BNC clock cables for 45 and 49 khz clock sync. |
@zaxx40 There is a USA Dealer too, @Audioman58 in MA. I got my Terminator 15th from him.
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V fi.....I owned the Pontus II and had the Venus II in my room back to back...To me in my system the Pontus was too dark in its presentation ,Decent sound stage but the Venus II was superior in every way,,Well worth the money to move up in my opinion.I have not heard the new Venus 15th version but have one on order to try.. |
I too went from Pontus II to Venus II...I upgraded my Eversolo A8 to HiFi Rose 130 transport also. Each step did show wider sound stage, airiness, more detail, while not being harsh. One thing I noticed was my I2s doesn't work correctly when I added HiFiRose 130(did work fine when I had Eversolo A8). I now use higher end Transparent Audio digital coaxial cable and works fine but would rather use I2s. Does anyone have advice on how to set the I2s settings in the Venus II?. I know how to do it on Hifi Rose 130. Also, so going from Venus II to 15th very much worth it or would going up to the Terminator 15th be better choice?
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@vthokie83 great DDC explanation |
The purpose and reasoning for DDC/I2S explained well from above posts. I'll add its not only clock topology that's important, implementation of these clocks extremely important, this means power supplies must be optimal. What this means is a well implemented TXCO or Femto clock could outperform a poorly implemented OXCO clock. I should also add the clocks themselves can vary in quality.
Quality of streamer may or may not make a difference, its all about interface quality/implementation\. Don't automatically assume any or all interfaces within any streamer is optimized to the highest level. A quality DDC unit that optimizes both input and output interfaces, and has optimal clock and clock implementation may offer superior sound quality vs streamer. And then we have the possible inherent advantage of shorter signal path within dac when using I2S interface (dacs convert any input to I2S), one avoids using other input detour via ddc with I2S out. And then we have to consider how well I2S implemented DDC vs. dac, is the dac internal I2S equal, superior, inferior to DDC I2S? All in all there are so many variables at work here, main one is how does DDC I2S compare to the particular dac you're using or contemplating purchasing. I chose the Denafrips Gaia for it's greater potential in providing superior I2S vs most any dacs internal I2S. |
Hi @zaxx40, thanks for sharing your experience. What's the correct clock output setting for syncing with the Arce streamer? Looking at the manual, I'm a bit confused with the 4 options available: CLOCK OUT light ON + COAX light ON = Output and input signal sampling rates are equal word clock. CLOCK OUT light ON + AES1 light ON = Digital Clock Output CLOCK OUT light ON + AES2 light ON = Half of the main clock output CLOCK OUT light ON + OPT light ON = Main clock output |
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I recall I did the option for the Gaia
DENAFRIPS VENUS 15TH Clock Out setting 1. Press the Mute button to enter the mute/Setting mode 2. Tap the input button multiple times. When you press/release the Input-button, you will see the leds light up in the following order ·COAX (no clock output) ·AES1 (44.1K/48K) AES2 (24/25Mhz) <- for Soundaware ·OPT (45/49Mhz) <- for GAIA ·I²S-A (CLOCK output is disabled, please note that the CLOCK LED will also be turned off) |
I've had a Venus 15 and a Hermes DDC since the beginning of the year. I noted that one particular 24/96 Qobuz track of female choir had some stridency. It is now almost gone. It could be due to the BluOS upgrade I did last night for my Node 130 streamer, or due all the components and cables breaking in more. I saw a video with Alvin Chee of Vinshine in which he explained that the Hermes was the sensible DDC to get for the Terminator 12 (which is the same as the Venus 15), so there may be no need to go for a Gaia with a Venus 15. If you play CDs, it might make sense to get a DDC anyway. I don't know about the need for it with a higher quality streamer. |
@vthokie83 ok trying get some clarity before I sell my Iris DDC. Read this review from a guy on the Denafrips site and he explains the connection differences between USB and i2s and how using the Iris i2s with the Terminator+ w/OCXO clocks (Venus 15th) is still better than connecting your source with USB. https://twitteringmachines.com/review-denafrips-terminator-ii/ |
Venus 15th owner here. Definitely upgrade the Wiim Streamer; I saw big improvement upgrading to Auralic Aries S1 over the Wiim Ultra. Also, using the lowest model DDC from Denafrips (Iris) or Musician (Pisces II) slaved to the Venus 15ths DAC and outputting I2S (HDMI or RJ45) will provide big improvement in sound at low cost (no need to get higher DDC models as their better clocks will not be used when slaving the DDC to the OCXO in the Venus 15th). Same thing applies if you got the cheapest Denafrips streamer (Arce); no need for the more expensive Arcas (nor a DDC if you get the Denafrips streamer); just slave the Arce to the Venus 15th clock (use the correct setting and i2s pinouts as described by others earlier and in Vinshine's video for other Denafrips DACs). |
@skasundr The Iris is only useful if you only have a need to a single USB input. If you have more sources you want connected than the Hermes is the way to go. I use USB, Coaxial and AES/EBU connections. Clock sync feature too. |
@fthompson251 True, that is definitely a reason to at least upgrade to the Hermes if you have that need (the Gaia does not offer anything more in that regard). My Auralic Aries S1 gives me those same extra inputs. If I had not gotten the Musician Pisces first, the Auralic Aries S1 would have been able to serve as a high quality streamer, galvanic isolator, and a reclocker for all those sources (albeit no I2S output). It is able to reclock, resample, and isolate allow of those sources just like a DDC. I think just pairing the Aries S1 to any Denafrips DAC is a great match for only $2000 (without the extra Auralic linear power supply which is $1000 extra). The I2S from my Pisces sounds great, but I tested Aries straight to Venus from its USB without the Pisces in the middle, and it also sounds just as good. Just another option for those who don’t want to buy both a new streamer and a new DDC at a higher cost. |
If additional inputs are needed and you don’t need a new streamer or you just want to have a DDC for the I2S output (and you don’t care to slave the DDC to the Venus), I would get the Laiv uDDC at a lower cost of $849 vs $1299 for the Hermes. The uDDC has a good clock (not as good as the Venus, but likely not a huge sonic penalty), and also offers an I2S input. It, however, only has I2S output. |
ejspain2020 Sorry for the slow response, damn work has gotten in the way of my hobby. I appreciate the input, and I did go back and read that article. The first thing I noticed is the article is from January 2022, before Vinshine/Denafrips had even introduced their firmware updates; of which many were released; and three years before the 15th series were released. Three years is a LONG time ago in the DAC and streamer world, and I'd venture to say USB implementation has come a long way in three years too. Before I'd get rid of anything, why not try things out to see how they sound? My DAC and streamer will be upgraded this summer, and I'll try all options to see which SQ I like best. As I always say on this subject "It depends", and the depends only comes from listening in my system, or a system that I know well. If I were to make a decision today, I'd likely end up with an Aurender N200 or N20, and a DAC from the Terminator 15th (or upcoming Terminator Plus 15th), Lampizator, Weiss, T+A, etc. group. Whether I'd add a DDC depends on where I end up sound wise, but I do have my own Iris DDC; and access to a Gaia and Hermes DDCs that my friends own.....and I will try them all. The Denafrips DACs hold a VERY dear place in my heart, because to my ear they are extraordinarily musical and fun.....but I will keep an open mind as well.
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@vthokie83 Really great point about the rapidly changing USB tech in recent years, and I agree that listening with your own ears should be the final deTerminator |
@skasundr and @@vthokie83 so far with the Venus 15th connected direct USB to the Eversolo A6 Standard it sounds ok and a definite upgrade from the Pontus II 12th but with only 150 I think it's still running in. What I'm hearing from you two is "it depends"...the Iris may or may not sound good with the Venus 15th so I'll play the in and out game to see which I prefer before selling the Iris. |
@vthokie83 I connected my Iris last night, selected i2s on the Venus 15th and it just worked. Do I still need to go through the settings above? |
ejspain2020 No need, it either works or it does not in my experience. That said, once you have the Iris/Venus combo set up, I'd now try the oversampling/non oversampling......and in oversampling mode, the sharp/slow filter. The link I posted previously for mact333 shows all configurations for the Venus......your preferences before the Iris may not be the same with it added into the mix |
@vthokie83 ok I'll give that a shot but I'm still stupid stuck on how the Iris could possibly sound better over the better OXCO clocks in the Venus 15th. What am I missing? |
@ejspain2020 If it sounds better, it would not be because of the clock in the Iris, which is worse than the Venus’ clock from a technical standpoint. If you are hearing benefits with the Iris without slaving it to the Venus’ clock (which would involve using the 2 clock out BNC ports on the Venus connected by 2 BNC cables to the 2 respective clock in BNC ports on the Iris), then it is because you are experiencing the other benefits of the DDC other than better reclocking (ie. galvanic isolation, etc. as explained by @vthokie83 previously). This, in turn, likely means that the USB signal coming out of whatever streamer you’re using into the Iris is likely poorly implemented. The only input on the Venus that would use the Venus’ very good OCXO clock (which is arguably the biggest upgrade from the Pontus to the Venus 15th and one of the biggest reasons as to why you would have paid extra over the Pontus for the Venus) is the Venus’ USB input because it is the only asynchronous input. Every other input uses the clock of the upstream device it is coming from. However, it could also be argued that you are not really hearing an improvement because 1) the isolation in the Iris is not really better than the isolation offered by the Venus’ USB input, and 2) I2S input in and of itself is not better than the USB input on Denafrips’ Venus and Terminator, as Denafrips themselves recommend using the USB input for these higher model DACs (because they say the isolation and clock is much better in these DAC models than any of their DDCs). Honestly, there is no reason to use any of the DDCs by Denafrips or Musician with the Venus from a purely SONIC perspective if you are not going to slave it to your Venus (you would be downgrading your clock - or at least not upgrading the clock in any meaningful way if you don’t buy what Denafrips claims, using a synchronous I2S signal that is more prone to interference with HDMI or RJ45 cable runs longer than 1-1.5ish meters compared to USB cable runs, etc.). If you need more inputs, then the Hermes and Gaia would offer that (though that is a good chunk of change to spend for input switching when there are some cheaper DDCs that allow you to do that, especially if you are not slaving your DDC to the Venus anyway). Even if the OCXO clocks in the two higher end Denafrips DDC models are exactly the same as the single OCXO clock that is in the Venus (not sure if this is the case or not, but like @vthokie83 stated with USB, clock implementation is just as important as the clock itself), I think it would still be beneficial to slave them to the Venus DAC’s clock because then both devices would be in sync using the same clock. If you want to see if you should keep the Iris or not, you should 1) use your new streamer if you are going to upgrade your streamer, and 2) slave the Iris to the Venus’ clock with 2 quality BNC interconnects (I think it should be 50 ohm BNC cables for this connection, but I would double check). Then listen and see if you hear a difference between your streamer’s USB out going directly into the Venus’ USB in VERSUS your streamer’s USB out going into the Iris’ USB in and then the Iris’ I2S out (HDMI or RJ45) into the Venus’ I2s in. |
@ejspain2020 Also, there is a little more to the correct I2S setting than just not hearing static/noise. You should make sure 1) the left and right channels are correct (just use a left/right channel test track on whatever streaming service you use or even youtube), 2) make sure the setting you select works with BOTH PCM and DSD (there is also a DSD left/right setting that is separate from the I2S setting), and 3) make sure the signal is in correct phase (this one is hard to tell even with a phase test track in my experience). |
@skasundr BOOM!!! You nailed it. Exactly the info and scenarios I needed to divide and conquer. Think I'm on the right track now...thanks 👊🏿 |
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with a DDC like with everything else in audio. I always thought that a decent DDC would likely improve sound (and at worst do nothing). I have a few DDCs, and with most streamers I have had, there is definitely an improvement with adding a DDC to the chain and going I2S out to a I2S capable DAC. However, two instances where I favor no DDC over having a DDC is with my now years old dedicated PC streamer with a JCAT Femto USB Card powered by a Keces P8 LPS (not sure if this JCAT card just has a really good USB implementation) and my Topping D90III Discrete DAC (USB always sounds better than I2S no matter what DDC I have tried with it). Also, from my experience, DDCs have really made a big difference when they have a master clock input and I am able to sync my entire chain with the same external master clock (though this is not really something that can be done with the Denafrips and Musician DDCs as they don't have 10 MHz master clock inputs and only have dual 45 and 49 kHz word clock inputs). I know its only with my ears (n = 1) and applicable to just the 4 streamers I have tested (Wiim Ultra, Eversolo DMP-A6 Gen 2, Fiio SR11, and Auralic Aries S1), but I have noticed that using a Musician Pisces slaved to the Venus 15th DAC's OCXO clock and going I2S into the Venus results in an improvement for all of them.