@mijostyn thanks for the thoughts. I am not super technically versed in some of what you said but regarding your comment on upgrading the tonearm to the Zephyr, how do I know it will be compatible with the Concept table? Is this something I can install myself? The Zephyr is roughly the same price as the entire Concept table. Should I be looking at selling the concept table and applying that to an upgraded TT alltogether?
@jjss49 yeah I know the B&Ws are a bit on the bright side. It really does depend on the recording in regard to how often/troublesome the highs get. |
You're in the dreaded "it's good, but what's better?" zone.
Endless advice from A-Z. Consider just playing clean records and open a beer.
Replace your cartridge when it wears with something different.
When you hear a REALLY good system, you realize just about everything needs to be upgraded. |
@tablejockey 👍 totally agree. I think my best bet at this point is to look into finding a cartridge that’s more compliant with my tonearm. Not sure how long the Hana SL will last. Will I hear an audible difference and know? I’ve had It for about a year and listen on average an hour a day. So I have 300-400 hours of wear on it now. Still sounds amazing! |
mijostyn. It is good that you like your setup regime of SRA. There is always room for improvements.
For me is that a suboptimal procedure and explains why you do not put that much care in my opinion to it that it may deserve.
Don't get me wrong I also have a USB microscope laying around. The SRA regime you use I call it for the Michael Fremer method.
I am more in the Peter Ledermann camp of method. There we adjust the SRA during when the record is playing. There is a difference between when like Michael F put down the stylus at stand still in stasis.
If you adjust to 92° at stand still and then when you are done, play a record that will put friction and grove modulation on the stylus then you will no longer have 92°.
The dynamic adjustment that Peter L is using is then to do the final fine adjustments by ear.
Now there will a micrometer precision instrument come handy when adjusting the tone arm height on the fly, while you play the record. There is information online on what to listen after and what albums and track to use.
During my years of study how the best do their setups I have learned that there is usually several ways how to go about for adjusting each setting/parameter on a TT.
So that is why I believe that making sure that the stylus is in the groove with all the parameters as close to ideal is more important for sound quality then what tone arm it is. If the angles between the stylus and grove is little bit more "off". The tone arm cannot compensate for that.
And yes the ideal SRA is changing with different records but the ball is on the playing field and not somewhere in the arena. And on the other hand that is then easily adjusted if we want/needed. |
Other than room, it depends on what you want. If you want accurate, uncolored, very detailed sound, a Rega P8 or P10 would be a great option, more for the arms they provide. Cool dustcover that doesn't present any problems. Cartridge that goes for the same accuracy - Van den hul One Special. (assuming your phono stage goes to 100-200 ohms). It's higher output MC - about .75.
Since vinyl is what you are looking for, the source is key. You can never get better sound than what comes out of the preamp.
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Three things Optimize. 1st is I adjust SRA with the platter turning so it is a true 92 degrees. 2nd is every record is a little different by perhaps give or take 10 minutes. So, if you adjust it by whatever method to one record you will be off on many of them. Third is your ear is nowhere near sensitive enough to pick up 10 minutes of error. You can not even hear 20 minutes. https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html 92 degrees is all you need. Just make the oncoming face of the stylus 90 degrees to the record surface and you are in business. |
paulgardner-
If that were my system, I would look at some nice floorstanders, if you get an itch for a different presentation. If itch still persists, go up the food chain in tube amps-separates or nicer integrated.
After that, knock it out of the park with a $5K+ table & $2K+ cart. Don't forget the US RCM. |
Paul, the Concept is a fine table. You will have to spend a lot more to get significantly better. Yes, you have to make sure a tonearm fits before you buy it. The spec you need to look at is the spindle to pivot distance. If the spindle to pivot distance of the Zephyr lands anywhere near the center of your tonearm board you are in business. Ideally, you would get a new arm board from Clearaudio and drill it to spec for the Zephyr, plop it in and you are in business.
I would much rather have a better arm and cartridge in a lesser turntable than the other way around. The next significant step up in a turntable would be to an isolated unit Like the Sota Sapphire IV and it is $3600.
For less than that you can have the Zephyr and a Lyra Delos. That would for certain put you in hog heaven:) |
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Hah ! I love this forum. It took less than 48 hours for members to recommend thousands of dollars of upgrades, many of which would actually be side-grades, based on their personal tastes / preferences, not just answering your question. It's all good, but damn, it's a rabbit hole ! Paul, the Concept is a fine table. You will have to spend a lot more to get significantly better. This is the best comment I've read, in my humble opinion. You have a really nice system. I'd suggest small improvements like a good/better record cleaning system and then look at a better cartridge. These changes can potentially give you the biggest return on your investment. Vinyl out sold CDs this year for the first time in history so the rabbit hole is growing ;~) |
Just a quick observation regarding fuses if you go down that route. You don't need to change 4. Only the main fuse to get the most benefit. I've replaced several of my components with them and its a very nice cheap tweak. |
1. Speakers
2. table
3. cartridge
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If I remember correctly (I’m too lazy to scroll to the top) I read the word “love” at least twice. You said, I love my system, I love the sound...something like that. Very powerful words! Any old school audiophile will tell you that. We fell in love with our stereos and thrilled at the sound of music. Then...we got bored*, or, had extra money and decided to change something. Years later and thousands of dollars later, we lost that loving feeling and chased the dragon. You have a very good system. You love it. Continue to enjoy it as it is. IMHO, buy an IKEA shelf and hunt for records and enjoy the music. Do not start down the path of audionervosa. *After years of working trauma (I’m a surgical RN) I come to realize that boredom can lead to some very bad decisions. |
I've just been trying out a relatively inexpensive upgrade to my vinyl set-up that has impressed me greatly. I suspect the biggest improvements are to be found with lower-end set-ups, but my experience, with a reasonably high-end vintage set-up, has been extremely positive.
It's an isolator of sorts, that fits between cartridge and headshell, made by the Funk Firm in the UK (formerly Pink Triangle), known as "Houdini".
It's resulted in a lot more depth, space and resolution to the music. What was a bit of a mellow-sounding cartridge seems to have more bite/attack and firmness in the bass, without any harshness.
The cost in the UK is £300, which many commentators on various forums have written off already, despite not trying it, purely on the basis that nothing this small and simple should cost this much money. The entire HiFi arena would be a very small place indeed if everyone believed this!
There are actual reviews starting to appear from sources with more knowledge and experience than I. Houdini will soon be available to the public (FYI: mine was supplied and fitted by Arthur Khoubessarian of the Funk Firm and I paid full price for it). I understand that they're offering a full money-back guarantee to buyers who try it and don't want to keep it.
j.
System:
PT Tarantella/Origin Live Silver/Ortofon Kontrapunkt B/Houdini
Audio Research SP9 mk3
Micromega Solo
Albarry M1008 Monoblocks
Pro-Ac EBT
(VdH/Kimber/Cardas cables, Woodblock/Red Rollers RF inhibitors)
(my primary turntable - PT Too (Anniversary Spec)/SME V/Koetsu Urushi currently out of action)
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@oregon some good advice. I’ll likely keep what I’ve got for now and wait until I need to replace my cartridge before doing anything crazy. Thanks for the idea and thought everyone. This forum is great!!! |
Hello, all this talk about a new tonearm is very interesting. I have a different suggestion. I owned a VPI classic turntable for years. One day the unipivot pushed me TOO far. After futzing with the turntable for years I put it up for sale. Three is one really good thing about a VPI, it's retail value. Instead I purchased a Pro-Ject RPM 10 Carbon Turntable. It's filled with a metal/resin particulate and sits on its own isolation table that is filled the same. I was SHOCKED at the difference of isolation. This metal/resin particulate allows vibration to drain out. I can blast my record now with pure clean sound.
O.K. here comes the recommendation....
An isolation table for your fine turntable to sit on. At that point you will be amazed at how much better your system sounds. |
@drewmb1 thats a good suggestion. I currently have a makeshift or rather homemade isolation table. It’s a combination of butcher block sandwiched with foam and some other stuff. Do you think the “proper” $500-$1000 iso tables are going to do a much better job? I don’t know because I’ve never tried, but I think what I have put together is pretty good. Could probably be better. Maybe that’s the disease talking tho! Ha!
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Holly law a diminishing returns is right.
Paul you have an outstanding base to start with & moving up the later is going to cost you large, so you’ve hit the nail on the head there. Compound that with the audio disease, meaning what ever you do will eventually lead down the road of discontentment. Best path IMHO from both a sonic and economic prospective would be to up grade the caps in your Rogue with either Mondorf’s Supreme Silver/Oil or V-caps (do your research), along with some new high quality tubes, . https://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf
Another possibly is a Vishay volume control. But that’s getting expensive
The other suggestion would be to purchase only high quality recordings.
As for cartridges .... now you’re racking up the bills. There’s a host of used MM that might tickle your fancy, but as for their condition it’s a bit of a shot in the dark. You already have a far better than average cartridge in the Hana SL, so your next move might be a Soundsmith Aida, or Voice, but now you’re doubling and tripling the price of your Hana. Is it worth it ????? Now we’re back to the law a diminishing returns.
Then of course there’s the listening room. If I may suggest, address that if you haven’t already.
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@paulgardner If you budget can afford it, mostly inconspicuous Synergistic Research HFT products can help your acoustics with minimal visibility. I use them instead of large acoustic treatment panels on my front and rear walls. I use just four around my 75" TV in a room with a lot of reverb (40' wide, 20' deep, 18' vaulted high). The TV sound (with separate audio, speakers at the corners of the TV but open to hallways/rooms adjacent to the speakers-hence no baffling) concentrates so that within about 10' wide area from the speakers has greatly increased clarity-eliminates room echo.
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@thehorn thanks for the post!
Would upgrading the capacitors require me sending the amp in or is that something I could do on my own?
Regarding the tubes - I have already rolled the small tubes to a Brimer NOS and some Gold Lions. These replaced the stock JJs. I have not touched the larger power tubes. I’ve been told those don’t affect the sound as much as the small tubes, more specifically the preamp tube. Thoughts?
Thanks so much!
Paul |
Regarding the isolation base, buy with the option to return if not pleased
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Paul wrote: Would upgrading the capacitors require me sending the amp in or is that something I could do on my own?
I don’t know Paul. If you’re an electronics Tech and know your way around a sodering gun, built Heath Kits, and are in the Instrumentation Dept at work, I’d say ya. Other wise I’d look around for a VERT REPUTABLE Tech.
Good move on the tubes, I believe that Amp uses 1 12Au7, 2 12Ax7’s, and KT88, or KT120 power tubes. I also believe Tung-sol is the only company that makes Kt120’s, so that limits that, but I could be wrong.
There’s now a KT150, and I have to admit I don’t know if you can use them in your Rogue (check with Rogue), or if they’re grainy. But the KT150 "should" give your amp more slam, the caps more grace.
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Would upgrading the capacitors require me sending the amp in or is that something I could do on my own? If you're asking then I'd suggest you're not qualified to do the upgrade. It's something you could research and do or you could just find a tech in your area. Accidentally shorting a couple of fully charge power Caps can be dangerous the you and the amp. IF you're seriously considering this why not contact Mark and ask him if he's offering any updates to your amp. He's a pretty knowledgeable guy. https://www.dagogo.com/an-interview-with-mark-obrien-of-rogue-audio/ http://rogueaudio.com/FAQ.htm |
@paulgardner Would upgrading the capacitors require me sending the amp in or is that something I could do on my own?
+1000 if you are asking this question, you already know the answer.... |
I'm with the guys above that mentioned replacing the cables. The right Cables will make a huge improvement to any system and without great cables you are not hearing the best possible performance from your components. I have spent the last 6 years auditioning some very good cables and designing my own DIY cables and have been amazed at the continual improvements I have observed from comparatively simple cable upgrade, so I believe Cables are the best starting place for any upgrade venture Companies like InAkustic or Nordost make some very fine cables that will improve most any system - there are other companies, but these two companies are what I consider to be leaders in cable architecture/geometry, which is key to cable performance If you are interested in a DIY approach then read this current Agon thread... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/duelund-conversion-to-diy-helix-geometry-cablingThere are postings from some very seasoned Audiogon members. Regards - Steve |
@williewonka thanks for the post. I have ordered what I’m sure many people here will consider to be an entry lever power cable. I went with the $60 BLE 16mm (10ga.) Hi-End Rhodium Plated Power Cable that a couple people recommended earlier in this thread. I’m sure I will try something from Nordost next. Hopefully the cable I ordered will be better than the stock power cable. We will see! Thanks and yes I agree, lots of great info here. This is a very helpful community. Much appreciated!
Paul |
"sure I will try something from Nordost next." If you decide to go down that road, this is where to start https://nordost.com/leif/blue-heaven/blue-heaven-power-cord.phpThis power cord is where you get their upper level technology. Tread lightly in the cable zone and keep your ears wide open. My system is Nordost wall to speakers. |
@paulgardner ... Nordost was my first exposure to Power cables that made an easily discernible improvement - I was in a demo room at a show with about 15 other audio guys - so it was less than "ideal" listening conditions.- - The Nordost guy played a track - replaced ONE power cable on the source component - replayed the track - the difference was easily heard by everyone. I also agree with @tablejockey.. Tread lightly in the cable zone and keep your ears wide open I've trusted my ears for several years and have not been disappointed :-) There are many options/brands looking to get your cash and trying to discern which ones actually provide significant benefits can be time consuming and expensive. InAkustic - uses an exceptional geometry and metallurgy to achieve stunning results Nordost - uses a different geometry and materials that also work exceptionally well Unfortunately - all that development comes at a price point which may not suite every budget. So keep an eye out for resale cables. - Even older versions of cables from these two brands will offer great performance. Regards - Steve |
@paulgardener ....looking forwards to reading what differences you hear with the new power cable when it arrives ....my suggestion is to try different things but only replace 1 thing at a time, that way you will know what impact each part has
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@swann36 ok so I’ve spent some time with the new power cable. I really like it a lot! Best $50 upgrade I’ve ever made. I’m noticing a lower noise floor and a slightly tighter bass. It’s not dramatic but it’s definitely there. I really like your suggestion of replacing one thing at a time. Much easier to know what affect each change has on things. I’m thinking about swapping the power cable on the phono stage next! |
