DDC or Better Streamer?

My experience is streamer is more important than DDC. Gaia DDC via I2S to both Laiv Harmony and Musetec 006 icing on the cake, this vs optimized usb. I've been through at least six streamers, streamers right up there with dac as most important streaming component.

With the price range of your equipment, I would lean to trying a DDC with I2s first. The Gustard U18 is only $500 and will definitely improve your bluesound streamer. To upgrade the streamer would require north of 5k to make big improvements imo.

What of a streamer that is also a DDC? @audiostick 

@baylinor Are you saying $5k new or used?  When I say $3k used, I'm thinking something like Aurender N150 or Innuos Zen Mk3.

@kofibaffour When you say Streamer that is also a DDC, are you referring to Streamers with i2s inputs?  I was hoping LAIV would bring their NET2 to market at price point and performance level of Harmony DAC, but now I'm wondering if they will be bringing it to market at all.  Regardless, a Streamer with i2s input would be nice and would remove temptation to add DDC, even though I've heard it would help OPPO as well.

@audiostick yes I mean a streamer with an I2S output

Here you go - https://eliseaudio.com/products/holo-audio-red

@audiostick 

My point was it is best to match equipment in a similar price range because a 10k amp with 3k sources is not gonna be able to perform as a 10k amp, rather it will put out 3k signals. Of course I'm generalizing. By example all my components are in the over 7k range, talking new prices. I upgraded many times to get to this point but always trying to keep components in a similar price range. Like if I go up 2k in a unit, it's with a long term goal to go up like that eventually with all the other components. Just food for thought.

@audiostick 

I just got a Matrix Audio TT-1 and will pair that with my Laiv DAC.   Never thought using I2S would provide that much better performance.   I had the ES A8 and hope the TT-1 will up the game even more...

@audiostick 

I’m not sure about the N150, but I have a N200 and it does not have I2S or Toslink as an output.  It does have Coax, but Their preferred output is USB and it sounds very good to me.

I also have a N200.   With my DAC i thought coax sounded better.   The N200 USB is very good, but I think it's my DACs  implementation that's not so great 

I picked up a Mutec MC3+USB.   It is a reclocker and converts USB to Coax or AES  or Tos.     I have it converting USB to Coax and it is noticeably better.   

I think your most cost-effective upgrade would be a used Hermes and a LPS for the Vault from LHY, SBooster, or Teddy Pardo and then use i2S into the LAiV.  Best of luck. 

Just listened for a couple hours... if you have the ability to go from a streamer/transport via I2S to DAC, I think you will be very happy...

Innous 

Which includes Innous 

My N10 has coax, toslink and USB.  The USB sounds the best and is the only one with output of DSD files.  I can’t recommend DSD enough!

Personally I use an Innuos Pulsar even though I hate the Sense App.  It simply sounds better than any other streamer I have tried and much better than Roon which is incredibly irritating since Roon is a vastly better interface.  I use the Holo May KTE DAC.  The Denefrips Iris did nothing positive with most of the streamers I tried but the LaiV uDDC is a nice upgrade with the Pulsar or an Eversolo A8 streaming Roon to the Holo May.  I think the streamer is more important.  And if you buy used and have a few bucks left over the EtherRegen as a front end to the streamer makes a noticeable difference.  Why any of this stuff is actually true is a mystery but I think the differences are much more noticeable than the difference between most DACs.

I moved from the Bluesound node to the N150. It was a nice sonic improvement, the conductor app is very nice & the footprint is excellent. The N150 only has USB out. 

Another vote for an Innuos streamer.  I have the Zen MK3.  Upgraded from a Bluesound Node M130 streamer and I noticed a difference in sound quality immediately.  They just discontinued the Zen MK3 so you may be able to find a used one.  They make other models at different price points.  

@baylinor Ok, I think you are telling me my system is not good enough to reveal benefits of the better Aurender or Innuos Streamer.

@mbolek When I was researching the LAIV Harmony DAC, the majority of reviewers preferred i2s with it.

@curiousjim & @oddiofyl Much respect for the N200 but probably more Streamer than my system will show benefit from.  Yes, I understand Aurender to be very good with USB.  Will there never be temptation to convert to i2s?

@soix I have two other systems with Bluesound Streamers in them, and am thinking of adding an LPS to one of them.  I was not aware of an LPS option for the Vault.  Were you thinking of Node, or are you aware of LPS for Vault?

The mediocrity of my system is a valid point here.  If even a $12k Streamer would not provide benefit, I have no problem with eating humble pie and going the DDC route.  Agree?  Thanks everyone.

FYI - Schiit just came out with a balanced Mesh DAC with EQ and Preamp. Up to 32 bits/384 using USB input. Other inputs are 24/192. It has an optical input. 

Very few times will anyone (me, included) ever offer up a audio component that actually saves money, but here it is...

$349 with Forkbeard (software that enables control of devices using phone app)

Schiit came to fame via the popularity of their DAC's. I have owned BiFrost and currently use the Yggdrasil. Heck, my Yggy can't do 32/384.

I have not heard this product, but considering it's price and lineage, it amounts to near zero risk in trying it out.

@audiostick 
 

I actually asked that question and was told probably not and no by the 2 Arunder people I spoke with.

Will there never be temptation to convert to i2s?

I much prefer the Harmony with Denafrips Gaia via I2S, this vs. optimized usb feed. Issue is many streamers don't provide I2S which isn't any great loss assuming most streamer I2S interfaces probably not of great quality, which means implementing a DDC for highest quality I2S.

@audiostick May be over your budget, but this is way I'd go in your situation.  Get Sonore Optical Rendu for your Roon Endpoint, keep the Bluesound, this will be Roon Core, you'll also need Sonore OpticalModule or generic optical conversion just in front of OpticalRendu. This serves three purposes, one is the OpticaRendu is superior streamer to Bluesound, two. you'll now have optical conversion which totally isolates noise from entering the streamer, three, Roon has superior sound quality with Core and Endpoint on two different devices. Now if you go a bit above budget, get the Denafrips Hermes or Gaia for the I2S to Harmony. I guarantee you this will be a significant upgrade to present setup, and for a very reasonable price.

Not for nothing but...I don't know of any high end DACs that rely on or optimized for I2S.  The top brands have some new connection technologies in development and none of them are I2S.  

@rick_n I have building cables all my life.   I2S had provided the best sound improvement in my journey.   Lets see how Laiv, Matrix, ES plays this out. As an engineer, clocking and signal is a no brainer.  Funny that some people think you know what you are talking about....

@audiostick 

As a Laiv DAC owner, I’m trying to figure out my stack.  Just sold the Hifi Rose RA180 integrated (actually don’t know why..) I have a couple other GaN amps and will miss the Rose.  

The TT-1 (with LPS) is crazy amazing.  I’ll probably settle on the Laiv streamer eventually.   Please don’t quote me on the upcoming EverSolo T8....

I never thought a connection could be that good.....I2S

@sns Interesting concept.  I'm not currently using Roon, but if I add a different Streamer and want to continue to use my other Bluesound products, I may have to.  Adding a Hermes is indeed intriguing as it appears that in addition to it being the low cost option, multiple sources will benefit from it.

@rick_n I see that Innuos Next Gen series is now offering i2s options, but $$$!

I would love to see LAIV bring the Harmony NET2 Streamer to market on time and at the price and delivery performance of their DAC.  This would make for the cleanest solution.  But this assumes that their i2s module would be on par with the Hermes performance.

@mbolek

You said that I don't know what I'm talking about but I do.  The point I made was that the high end DAC companies optimize their units for digital connection other than I2S.  So please tell me, since I don't know what I'm talking about, which of the high end DACs are optimized for I2S.  Is it MSB, Lampizator, DCS or Esoteric?    

Mola Mola Tambaqui is one of higher end dacs with i2S input.

I'd also offer many dacs not offering I2S may not be reaching their full potential. This contingent on the dac's internal I2S clock and power supply to that clock. The Hermes, Gaia and possibly some other DDC implement high quality OXCO clock and power supply to that clock that may better what's in dac. And to dismiss dac's that offer I2S as having inferior usb interface/boards, this not always the case. While the Harmony usb is rather pedestrian, my Musetec 006 has one of the best implementation of usb I've seen.

I'd also offer up since few streamers implement high quality i2S outputs, dac manufacturers don't see any point in offering I2S input. Just because usb seems to be the de facto interface doesn't mean its inherently superior to I2S. I have an extremely optimized usb interface, used this for years without complaint for a number of dacs, the Gaia simply outperformed it with both present dacs.

r.e. Innuos

They make some excellent streamers and I just demoed their Pulsar model.  My DAC has pretty much all of the available inputs and since I wanted to have the best possible results from the demo I queried Innuos directly about which is their preferred digital out.  The reply from Innuos:  "​I would recommend using USB as the connection type - this is our specialty and I believe it is very implemented."

The Pulsar has the Phenix Lite relocker built in and it's basically a watered down version of the Denafrips Hermes using a USB pathway.  

My takeaway from this is that while offering different output/input options, manufactures seem to focus their technology on a specific protocol.  I think it's worthwhile to know where their focus is to maximize performance.  

here’s a recent, relatively robust discussion re streamers.

streamer discussion

 Re DDC, I have no experience myself, but would simply note that It makes sense to me that Denafrips would make a separate Hermes in part because their DACs are NOS, and as such may be more sensitive to digital noise (i.e., by definition they’re not doing any processing to the signal), so a DDC provides a cleaner data stream.  Query whether the LAIV would benefit (benefit as much).

oops, did a bit more research. any reason you wouldn’t just go with Laiv Harmony uDDC?

@mdalton The LAIV uDDC does not have an optical input but the Hermes does.  I have 3 systems with Bluesound Streamers and Oppos in them, and none of the Bluesounds have USB outputs.  Therefore, I require SPDIF and Toslink inputs in a DDC to get the most bang for the buck.  Another reason why I'm considering the DDC over new Streamer is that I can move it around to other systems when/if I decide to upgrade Streamer.

When I saw that the LAIV did not have optical input, I stopped comparing other features like clock, power supply, etc.  I bet that there are others here though that can tell us differences other than the $450 price.

This is just a suggestion.  Take a look at Pi 2 Design's Pi2AES or Mercury streamer/DDC's.  See review below.

https://goldensound.audio/2022/06/03/pi2design-mercury-streamer-server-measurements/

DDC or a new  streamer; different road end with different experiences. My node as been upgraded with the lhy psu kit and a external lps. I also have a Lhy sw6 switch, and to be honest, if I knew at the beginning that I would get more and more into listening, I’d have probably bought a better digital transport first, but I didn’t know at the time I would buy all separate. I still think the (upgraded node) is good to begin with. Now, with my Pontus 15th, some will say just buy a ddc and use the i2s. Others, go with better digital transport where no noise is better than trying to hide it with a ddc. 

Guess both solutions are good, it depends on how much we really want to improve our game and where is our end goal.  Guess, I’m not there and I’m looking at innuos, lumin and aurender. Let us know what you’ve finally end up buying ! 

This morning while trying to educate myself about streamers reading audiogon posts that you may or may not need a DDC if, your streamer of choice has a clock (or is it a reclocker?) I typed in google,

the benefits of streamer reclocking, audiogon.

And this forum popped up. 

A lot of us here on audiogon don’t have the budget that some of you have and members here sharing your post are invaluable.

I too will be going with the Laiv Harmony DAC versus the Laiv harmony µDAC not only for the all the reasons I gleaned from audiogon but specifically per @sns’s noted response of the Laiv Harmony DAC’s power options far outweigh switching wall warts and the fact that I have a 聖Hijiri Nagomi power cord I’m not using right now I suspect it will make an improvement on the DAC’s overall performance. Not to mention my LTA Microzotl MZ3 preamp only has unbalanced inputs and the Laiv Harmony DAC have both balanced and unbalanced inputs

I have another of that same power cord on my LTA Microzotl MZ3 preamp and the improvements were immediate, even while not fully being burned in. 

And using that same logic I probably will not be purchasing the Laiv harmony µDDC, but I will leave that option open as I DO like the fact that it has both I2s input and output. 

@audiostick, before I purchase a DDC, I’m going to wait and see the if Laiv NET2 will make it to market for sale. Laiv shows (teases) us with an almost done picture of a NET2 prototype. Also because of the amount of money Laiv spent on research and development, I’ll give them some time.

Yeah, they’re probably trying to get all the proverbial bugs out but I can’t help but wonder what type of clock it will have? And that give me pause to wait and see.

Thanks to all you guys (and gals) here on audiogon. We and I here at audiogon could not do this hifi/audio thing without you.

I should have written 'the Laiv Harmony DAC have both balanced and unbalanced outputs'.

audiostick

This seems to be the great conversation over the last month or two or six, I've posted (as have several others like SNS) at least a dozen times on this subject. I've gone into very detailed discussions, so I'll not redo that here again as I just don't have the time. But here are a couple of links, and both are worth the reads

Here is a good discussion https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/received-my-denafrips-venus-15th?sort_order=asc

Another great DAC discussion with notes on the DAC-DDC relationship https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/six-dac-comparison?page=3

The Hermes added to the Laiv would give you quite a few improvements with your current set up, will it be enough for you? Only you can tell that. But if you did buy the Hermes, it is a really easy resell.....they don't last long on the used market

Audioman58 here in Audiogon is an authorized Denafrips resesller