DAC comparison

Interesting timing for me as I upgraded my Gungnir a few weeks ago to the original Yggdrasil.  I have all ARC gear otherwise and then a few weeks later a matching silver DAC 8 pops up for sale.  I couldn't resist and got it for the aesthetics.  I felt there was an improvement but admit by subjectiveness was likely driving by loving the look next to my Phono 2SE It definitely was not worse.  There are so many different combinations of the Yggdrasil as well that makes it a tough as well.  I only use coax FWIW.  They both seem to be solid DACs with good reputations so you could sell whichever one you like less.  

@charles1dad, thanks.

@vinylvalet, yes, Audio Note, SW1X, Merason, Abbas and a small handful of others are eschewing the fashionable 'does everything' DAC for one that prioritises power supply and the analogue stage and by omitting superfluous features shorter signal paths are possible. A non-resonant chassis and attention paid to EMI/RFI also contribute to the resultant sound.

 

Audio Note and ANK Kits make very fine sounding DACs using the Philips TDA 1543 chip from the early 90s.

I have a SMSL-SD9 as a music streamer, and unfolding MQA feeding a Musician Pegasus DAC. The Pegasus sounds very analog, and doesn’t give the listening fatigue of the delta-sigma DAC’s I’ve owned previously (Topping D90 MQA). The R2R sound is very lifelike to me, and many others.

@lemonhaze 

Guys who have got over the must play DSD, must unfold MQA, must have USB input, must etc. and have heard redbook played via a dedicated unit are coming round to appreciate just how much quality performance resides in the humble  redbook 

Amen brother and well stated.

Charles

 

My Wadia 15 which is now about 29 years old gets used all the time and it is redbook only. I also have a Bryston BDA-1, bought so I could listen to some hires but seldom listen to it because the Wadia gives me everything I want and its build suggests it will last another 29 years.

Guys who have got over the must play DSD, must unfold MQA, must have USB input, must etc. and have heard redbook played via a dedicated unit are coming round to appreciate just how much quality performance resides in the humble  redbook CD.

Chasing detail is one way of choosing a DAC but I prefer something that provides me with the necessary heft and immersive experience that I hold more important than a unit that plays all formats, converts on the fly, plays DSD, upsamples and has a dozen inputs etc.

Wadia is not the only one to excel with redbook, there are others and they can be found cheaply. The model 15 that I have can be found for about $800 and I have compared it to some very expensive modern DACs, some of which have been embarrassingly disappointing.

Ignore the joker who claims:  "I wouldn't touch a DAC more than 10 years old"  His myopic ignorance will steer you in the wrong direction. 

Stupid happy? I am totally stupid over the change in fidelity in my system since adding the Venus II. ...Dizzy happy. -

I have a friend with the Border Patrol DAC. He brought it over to my system to compare with my Yggy which, at the time, was my primary DAC. The BP was much warmer sounding with a laid back presentation. I was actually surprised by how different they sounded since most DACs I’ve tried have a very similar tonal balance. I think in the right system, the BP could be a good choice, particularly for the money.

I’ve since upgraded to a Denafrips Terminator Plus (original Terminator first). These DACs have a very similar tonal balance to the Yggy but are much smoother with more detail and significantly better imaging.

I don’t have any experience with the ARC DACs.

I've never heard the ARC, but I did get a chance to compare the Shitt Yggy vs my old Peachtree DAC-iT and it doesn't come close.  The Yggy was edgy and nowhere near as musical as my 7 year old Peachtree.

Eric -

 

Basics of what you are referring to (charged caps) is in Analog Devices MT-0156: "Basic DAC Architectures 2" by Walt Kester

I have no opinion on their sound. Not nearly enough experience, yet.

For the record, some very old DACs, with a new digital front end (USB, clock, processing - spit out to DAC) can be superb. I refer to mine as "franken DACs" for short.

Indeed. Audi makes a fine car (my wife drives Audi Allroads after years in BMW's) but they are FWD biased, even if power is being delivered to all four wheels. 
 

@ghasley I agree totally.  Audi makes a fine performance car for the masses (R8 or 10 excluded), but if it’s passion you’re after — sorry, Porsche — no substitute. 

@soix 

I've been test driving cars. The Audi S5 and S6 are illustrative / representative of the same. Uber competent. Yet missing more than something [for me].  : )

Indeed. Audi makes a fine car (my wife drives Audi Allroads after years in BMW's) but they are FWD biased, even if power is being delivered to all four wheels. 

I've been test driving cars. The Audi S5 and S6 are illustrative / representative of the same. Uber competent. Yet missing more than something [for me].  : )

It’s called Porsche.  That’s what you’re missing. 

Aside from ring dacs (i.e. dCS)  I wouldn't touch a DAC more than 10 years old. 

How about the well-known Philips TDA 1541A S1 or S2?  Very analoguously musical even it can only decode 16 bit.

@ghdprentice 

 

You have an amazing dac in the refcd9se. The Dac8 is nowhere close. In fact, if you heard them both in your system you might wonder what was going on at ARC at the time. It was a reasonable dac if fed a low jitter signal through spdif/aes but its usb implementation was ill conceived.

Get an RME ADE2 and get a pro quality transparent, solid build quality, no nonsense German component. It lives up to DACs five times its price that have "audiophile" fanfare etc. 

Roon rock core Intel NUC >optical lan>PS audio network Bridge II >PS audio Perfect wave DAC Mk II. Such an eloquent solution.. perfect I2s integration without the need for cables. The whole streamer DAC problem is the connection and how the DAC can handle it. At least in my opinion. For what it's worth...

DACs have come a long way in the last couple years. No longer is it necessary to trade off detail/resolution for naturalness/musicality or vise versa. I recently picked up a Meitner MA3 that I feel does a superb job at both: https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2022/07/08/meitner-ma3-dac-review/

https://www.stereophile.com/content/meitner-ma3-integrated-da-processor

And is has a great network streamer to boot.

I own an REF 9se… (technically a CD9SE). It is the best DAC I have ever heard… I had a Berkeley Alpha Reference 3 ($22K and highly rated) in my system with my ARC 9SE for several weeks… I fully expected to be coming up with another $5K for the Berkeley… but honestly the diffference was absolutely minuscule and tipped in the favor of the ARC… a tiny…tiny more flushed out sound.

I was pretty shocked when I heard the ARC… and went back and read reviews of previous models. They are very highly rated… so, I am sure there is not a huge differences between models. Tne strengths of the ARC is musicality, fully fleshed our sound that sounds natural. The detail is all there… but not pushed in your face… but very realistic. The 9 is definitely world class. I find it hard to believe the 8 isn’t relatively close. I have heard great things about it.

However, some folks want a lean, details forward sound… that is not ARC. You can see my system under my UserID. The ARC DAC… is simply amazing and completely complementary to the other ARC stuff to produce detailed musical sound. Obviously the sound I have been going for for decades.

@david_ten 

I completely get your automotive analogy. I would say that this really applies even more so to audio equipment. Listening to music is undeniably an emotional undertaking (For me more emotional than driving). If the audio product fails to connect and engage you with listening to music, what good is it? If you aren’t being touched, something vitally crucial is missing.

Charles 

@charles1dad   Hi Charles. dCS (gen prior to Apex), which I seriously auditioned, is one such example. It is without doubt a top tier DAC technically; and for it's owners: also in performance. However, for my preferences, it fell short. Hopefully this clarifies my previous post.  Let me know?

I've been test driving cars. The Audi S5 and S6 are illustrative / representative of the same. Uber competent. Yet missing more than something [for me].  : )

 

It's eerie how much my opinions/experience overlap @charles1dad 😎I use the same roughly 12 year old Dac and it sounds fantastic. I also heard the BP Dac in the same show system as Charles and loved the system overall. And I agree you can't condemn all older Dacs many are quite musical and revealing with Redbook. I cannot comment on ARC Dacs specifically however it sounds like others who've heard it don't recommend it very strongly never a great sign.

My error, DAC 7 is not tubed.

@david_ten

FWIW, despite the Yggdrasil being the ’superior’ DAC, it is the ARC DAC 7 that remains memorable and special.

An interesting dichotomy, the "superior" DAC is recalled as less special and memorable. I wonder what is the perceived sonic gap between the DAC7 (Tube) and DAC 8 (Transistor) ?

Charles

@backdoor  If your decision was solely around the Yggdrasil, I'd suggest upgrading from it. There are many options that deliver what the Yggdrasil does well AND also give you more. In some cases, much more. For reference regarding what I just wrote, my preference coalesces around naturalism, realism, and emotional connectivity.

The DAC 8 is a 'different' choice. Analogous (though not entirely) to someone choosing 'vintage' components over modern ones. As others have pointed out, listening to it within the context of your system and goals is important. 

My point being, were it me, I'd be comfortable upgrading from the Yggdrasil without an in home audition TO: current well reviewed / owner feedback DACs. However, if the choice was the DAC 8, I would want it in my system first...before making a decision.

FWIW, despite the Yggdrasil being the 'superior' DAC, it is the ARC DAC 7 that remains memorable and special.

Aside from ring dacs (i.e. dCS)  I wouldn't touch a DAC more than 10 years old. 

A broad paintbrush it appears to be. However we can only report our own experiences as we know them. This stance/perspective is definitely understood and appreciated in that light.

Charles

There's a really interesting paper by AKM running around somewhere about using charged capacitors instead of resistors and the benefits.  I'm not able to remember the technical details, but the appearance of these DAC chips coincides with my experience of there being a whole new era of DAC's.  Aside from ring dacs (i.e. dCS)  I wouldn't touch a DAC more than 10 years old. 

@oddiofyl 

No doubt it was.

Charles 

After bringing home a new DAC it further reinforces how important the DAC is as a source component. Especially if it is the hub of your system like mine is. I still listen to FM, but  the DAC is really where most of my media is connected to.

If you asked me last year if I would be spending $3200 on a DAC I would have thought you were crazy. It was money well spent .

@ghasley 

I have heard the Border Patrol DAC (BP) but in a full BP system with Volti speakers under show conditions. The overall sound quality was quite good but of course no way to isolate the BP DAC contribution. Some on this forum have praised the BP DAC and others have trashed it and called it over rated.  Just makes the point that no audio component goes unscathed. Thus home audition if feasible.

@backdoor 

I hope you are able to hear the ARC DAC 8 and judge for yourself within the context of your own audio system. This DAC had a very good word of mouth reputation. I think it’s worth looking into.

Charles 

@erik_squires +1

 

I owned that dac. It was good, not great, at its release and it was far better upsampling than redbook. If you want it to match other ARC equipment then cool. If you do get it though, the USB input is horrible. Use spdif or AES. In today’s dac world, I would take a Border Patrol at around $1,000 used and never, ever regret NOT getting the DAC 8. For a very brief while though, ARC’s Ref dac was selling for between $4-5k. Now that was a great dac if you ignored all the poorly thought out tech. It was a terrific dac with a Ref5se output stage. Feed that dac through its AES input and it was a screaming deal at its used price.

 

Dacs have come so far the past 5-10 years. Alot of really bright people have addressed jitter in some truly innovative ways. Its a great time to be in the hobby.

31pm

@backdoor That DAC was part of the last of the "we don’t like Redbook" era DAC’s. Since then most good DACs have demonstrated such an improvement with Redbook that you almost don’t care about high resolution music anymore.

Not sure when this era of transition took place, but an interesting observation. I have had the same DAC (Yamamoto YDA-1a) since 2010 it is simply wonderful with Redbook CD playback. Paired with my Pro-Ject RS2T transport the music presentation is genuinely superb and natural.
 

So maybe some brands/manufacturers crossed the threshold to terrific Redbook 16/44 earlier than others. Nice topic. Listening to jazz guitarist Kenny Burrell as I type this. The CD is “Lotus Blossom “ and it’s beautiful and captivating. Long live Redbook CD.

Charles

David I read where dac 8 was resolving with wider soundstage than many others. My Yggy is very good but might be slightly lacking in soundstage area. The rest to my ear is good. Thanks. 

@backdoor  That DAC was part of the last of the "we don't like Redbook" era DAC's.  Since then most good DACs have demonstrated such an improvement with Redbook that you almost don't care about high resolution music anymore.  Of course some will always say you must listen to hi rez, but to my mind these legends were due to the older DACs just not doing as well.

 

Former owner of the DAC 7 and the Yggdrasil. Sharing more about your preferences, desired outcomes and system focus will be helpful.

Erik I was concerned about the age of this dac too. Wasn’t sure how it stacked up with modern dacs. Thanks for input. 

I owned the DAC 8 for six months. Used it with a Wyred4Sound upsampler.  I also got a chance to look at the output on an oscilloscope.  That DAC had some visible noise issues which at least one reviewer commented about. 

The DAC 8 is only good with high resolution files. Something more modern will work a lot better with Redbook. I switched to a Mytek Brooklyn and was a lot happier overall.

Get something newer.