Cube Audio Nenuphar Single Driver Speaker (10 inch) TQWT Enclosure

,,,,just waiting on david to get back with me on settinga  time to hear his Cube Neuphars...... David are you cking your  mail box????

 

The T+A PA 3100 HV integrated is back in the system (after a very long run addressing break-in playtime due to recent other component and cable changes).

I'm bypassing it's preamp section. The T+A SDV 3100 HV is serving as Preamplifier. For those unfamiliar with the SDV, it is a Network Player/Streamer + DAC + Preamp with completely separate digital and analog sections (including the power supplies and power cables).

Sound quality, even with a full on digital solid state chain, is exceptional. Emotional, Engaging, Natural. 

Stressing this point since many in this thread are driving their Nenuphars with solid state systems. 

@larryi   Larry, thanks for sharing your personal and in-person findings from the Capital Audio Fest. 

Sounds like highlighting upper mid - lower height frequencies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_0HOgRxCMk

It's rather difficult to separate out how much the room, as well as the recording position, is contributing to the sound.

At the Capital Audiofest, I got to hear the Cube Nenuphar Basis speaker in a very large conference room setup, with the speakers set far away from any room boundaries.  The electronics included a particularly rare First Watt amplifier.

The sound of the setup was fantastic--rich, harmonically dense and complete, relaxed and natural sounding while remaining lively.  This was among the best sounds I heard at the show.  The mild reservations I had about the sound of the 10" Nenuphar systems I've heard before at shows, were completely non-existent in this system--no upper midrange peak or tendency to "shout" and superb performance with music that required weight, such as full scale classical music.  In absolute terms, a very good sounding system, and at its price, a fantastic bargain.  

Thanks David!

Also new kid on the block! The new Zen speakers with 15 inch open baffle sounds intriguing. Anyone here heard them?

I’ve also found a modest but worthwhile improvement using Stillpoints in place of the factory spikes. Stillpoints makes some adaptors that work for the Nenuphars too. I think they’re for the Acoustic Zen Adagios, going from 1/4” to M6.  

david_ten  No I haven't tried raising my listening position--not really practical.  Trying to figure out now whether I like center of driver at ear level or not...

@stephendunn  Correct!!!  Placement is such a critical and rewarding factor with speakers in general.

Have you raised / have you considered raising your listening position to accommodate the 3 inch height increase with the Nenuphars on the Townshend platforms?

I imagine the results will be different with the bass reflex cabinet designs (i.e. sealed bottom cabinet versions) ???

david_ten I was curious about the platforms and since my last iteration was with the speakers on their spikes I've done a little experimenting.  I found that I much prefer the Stillpoints Ultra SS in place of the front spikes!  I'm not sure if I like them better than the platforms, but all this has made me realize that driver height makes a big difference with the Nens.  Off the platforms the middle of the driver, dare I say tweeter?, is pretty much at ear height.  On the platforms they are almost 3" higher.  That alone, regardless of what the platform technology is doing, is going to impact SQ.  

@abd1  You have excellent company and are in a very good place with your Alan Eaton and Primaluna amps and those tube choices at your disposal. For me, reading your post is happiness inducing. Thanks!!!

@kw6  +1 to @stephendunn 's response to your question (both copied below):

Stephen >>> "Nenuphars have ten inch drivers....those drivers deliver a ton of top end air.  Have you read reviews at 6 Moons, Stereo Times and avshowrooms among others?  They might help overcome your concerns about a single wideband driver. "

You >>> "Still concerned no tweeter not able to get top end air! What do you think?"

BTW, I just read up on the Odeon Rigoletto 2020s and they appear to be a great choice.

@stephendunn  Thanks for taking the effort and time [it's a  significant undertaking] on removing the Nenuphars from the Townshend platforms and conducting the A/Bs both on and off of the platforms.

Thanks also for sharing your results and your overall preference.

For me, the platforms are a NO GO. It's unfortunate that we can't listen to each others' setups. : )

"Does anyone know how they differ"?
Differences between the model generations were covered in Dudley's review. 
Charles 

FWIW, Art Dudley's review is about the newer Cortese. The one I have is an older model designed by Shindo pere, Ken. There is a review and picture here at Dagogo:
www.dagogo.com/shindo-cortese-f2a-tube-amplifier-review/
Does anyone know how they differ?

My understanding is SPEC doesn’t sound like typical class D. Robert, what SPEC amp do you have and have you tried it with the Nenuphar’s? 

Art Dudley's review,  
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.stereophile.com/content...

@rwpollock,
Class D SPEC amplifier driving Boenicke W-8 and Shindo Cortese driving the Nenuphars. Which is your primary system? Surely they possess rather different sonic presentations. I’ve always come across comments of high praise for the F2a output tubed Shindo Cortese. The late Art Dudley loved this amplifier. 
Charles

As I mentioned upthread, my class D SPEC amp is now driving my Boenicke W8 speakers. It was now time to explore tube amplification (fronted by Vinnie Rossie DHT using Takatsuki 300B tubes).

Where to start? As I looked at listing on Audigon and Audio Mart my thought was to go with something that had solid resale value. Also an amp in the (for me) mid price range. I didn't want to do the upgrade two-step too many times.

Well, brothers, I'm here to tell you I've seen the light. A bright green pleasure machine. Yes, Shindo has captured my heart. The little Cortese F2A -- 10 watts and 15 pounds. Texture and liquidity. Plenty of bass. And, as one writer put it, it just sounds as if the band was better rehearsed.

Will I sell my SIT-2? Not now, but maybe down the line....

- Robert

David--I have spent most of the day listening to my Nens with and without the Townshend speaker platforms.  Here are my notes:

With platforms:
Greater sense of ambient space, definitely more soundstage depth and air.  
Highs a little rolled off and/or sweeter
greater presence

Without platforms
Better instrument location and definition
Bass tighter and less need of sub woofer (turned it down but it still added a lot)
Highs a little harder
Sounds more like hifi than the sense of "being there" with the platforms

Overall impression: Sounds more exciting with platforms, more accurate without

I can see how some would prefer the "without" list of attributes and some the "with" list.  It does seem that the platforms are additive or colored.  (Which surprises me because their technological seems to be based on being subtractive, reducing smearing and distortion.)  I prefer them but I can definitely see how others might prefer the cleaner more accurate sound without.  If I put a SET tube amp in front of the Nens, that might change.

 

kw6 The Nenuphar's have ten inch drivers.  And those drivers deliver a ton of top end air.  Have you read reviews at 6 Moons, Stereo Times and avshowrooms among others?  They might help overcome your concerns about a single wideband driver.  

@david_ten 

I'm using an Alan Eaton 45 amp and a Primaluna Dialogue Premium. These are much less expensive amps, especially purchased used, but I love their sound. The 300B amps I tried definitely had more microdynamic detail and texture. They played a more vivid tone and did sound more "real." However, I felt the sound a touch dry and just not as engaging. The 45 and PL amps keep me glued to listening area. For some reason when using the 300B amps I had a hard time getting the sound to separate from the speakers compared to EL-34 based amps. The PL excels at imaging for me, and I love the versatility of being able to use so many tubes. EL-34's probably being my favorite but the other night listened to KT-150 in triode mode and it was gorgeous. Right now listening to Shuguang WE6CA7's (EL-34) with Radiotechnique NOS 12au7's and it's sounding great. It does gloss over some fine detail but the music is just so enjoyable through it. Same with the 45 amp. That amp just has some "bounce to the bass" that is just so enjoyable. Midrange texture just feels great. Again, not as detailed or crystal clear as the 300b amps (I tried Canary and Sophia Electric), but just fun to listen to. I feel some people would prefer the 300B amps and I can see why. The microdynamics were startling. Especially with intimate vocals recordings and string instruments. Part of my decision was economics as well. Promised my wife I'd sell some stuff so we can do some projects on the house, so I might still sell one of these amps and go with 1 for now, we'll see. I am also interested in modifying the PL and upgrading the caps to V-Cap ODAMs. I know some people don't love PL but I think its a quality amp with a lot of versatility.

Ok thanks Stephen! It's hard for me to demo the Cube! I was also fan of the Odeon Rigletto which has dealer I can drive to. Still concerned no tweeter not able to get top end air! What do you think?

Btw when I wrote 8 or 10 inches I meant what size driver in your Cube?

david_ten Yes the Townshend platforms are still under the Nens.  Sometime ago I meant to take them out to make sure they were beneficial but things were sounding so good I never did.  However, since experiencing the performance boost with the small sub, it has occurred to me the platforms might be impeding bass response.  So over the next 48 hrs I'll take them off the platforms and see what happens.  There is a lively discussion of the Townshend platforms under speakers in another thread but if one tried to create a bottom line from the melee it would be that their benefit is speaker and room dependent.  I'll report back.

@abd1  What will you use (in the interim) to drive your Nenuphars?

@dspringham   Echoing Charles' response...+1 

I put one of these Zen amps on my Cube Audio Nenuphars and it sounds unearthly good.

@mga71   Congratulations on moving forward with your Audio Note 300B. Can't wait for your feedback on the pairing results!

@stephendunn  Are you still using the Townshend platforms / podiums under the Nenuphars? Thanks. - David.

kw6 The KEF KC62 has "two 6.5 inch force cancelling drive units powered by 1,000W RMS of specially designed Class D amplification"--so not even 8 inch.

As to your questions about things I can hear, yes in spades to all but that was before the sub was added.  Of course the sub made the bass drum in a drum kit sound deeper and more three dimensional.  In fact, one of the surprising side effects of a well integrated sub, is, as abd1 mentioned, to add depth to the soundstage.  And I certainly hear that despite using only one sub.  Although I don't hear the muddiness that dspringham did, I thought about running the output signal through the crossover in the sub to eliminate the amp sending low frequency info to the speakers as strongly recommended by Srajan--which in theory would be cleaner, eliminating overlap.  But I'm pretty sure you have to have two subs to maintain the stereo effect to do that.  

Tried Gallo TR1 sub (sealed 10 incher) in the setup. Took it out right away - granted, not the last word in high-end sub sophistication but in my mind all it did was muddy the low end. Much prefer the Cube's "naked" - plenty of bass foundation in my room. All the Gallo did was replicate home theatre type bass in place of the pure texture and tonality of the Cube 10 incher. As always, YMMV.

Question for Stephen Dunn

Do you have the 8 or 10 inch?
Can you hear a real cymbal hovering in the air?
Can you semse the felt on piano hammers?
Can it reproduce wooden resonance of acoustic guitar?
Can it reproduce a small drum kit accurately? 

Thanks!😃

@dspringham, 

"I put one of these Zen amps on my Cube Audio Nenuphars and it sounds unearthly good" 

"unearthly good" I love that description 😊. The Enleum would seem to have a battle on its hands  to equal or surpass that summation. 
Charles 

Enleum is already out. My buddy has his hooked up to the Fleetwood Deville's and is loving it.

As an update, I just posted this in speaker related another thread;

"I put one of these Zen amps on my Cube Audio Nenuphars and it sounds unearthly good. Using a Vinnie Rossi L2iSE with Elrog 300B’s for DAC and preamp duties. With these speakers the Zen sound amazingly natural and open - wide soundstage, wonderful clarity and tonality with great separation of instruments and voices. Bass is strong and deep. Within it’s power parameters I prefer the Zen sound to that of the Rossi’s own built-in Mosfet output stage (@100w/ch). All in all a surprising outcome - I’m sure the crossoverless Nenuphar FRD has a lot to do with the end result."

I think the one thing that most keeps impressing regarding the Zen/Nen combo is the "presence". Everything just sounds so vivid and alive. I should add that my Zen has CuTF V-Caps.

Already lusting for the Zen 25th Anniversary but the backlog at Decware is just too long for the impatient.

I see there’s a few reports of dealers getting in their Enleum’s in stock. Would love to compare the 23R vis-a-vis the Zen.

Also, just bought a Shunyata Omega USB cable to step up the information perspective from the K30.

@mga71, 
Can't go wrong with that choice, should be beautiful sound quality with the Nenuphars. 
Charles 

I'm pretty much set on Audio Note UK. 

I can see no logical reason why a high quality 300b SET would not be an excellent choice to drive the Nenuphars. @ mga71 congratulations! Are you acquiring a name brand manufacturer or is this a custom built for you amplifier?
Charles

Thanks david & abd for the quick and elaborate replies. I feel now comfortable ordering my 300B amp.

I used sophia electric 91-01 monoblock 300b SETs with my Nenuphar Mini’s. Sounded fantastic. Plenty of output. Great detail, texture and very controlled, nuanced bass. I’m actually selling the amps however not because they were lacking in any way. Just that we moved and have some house projects to take care of and I need to sell some gear. I also have some hardly used Takatsuki 300b’s that take everything up a few notches. 

I want to make clear that the Nenuphar driver and enclosure design has limitations, specific to it. As does any speaker design. For illustration purposes, a large scale multi-driver speaker will deliver aspects related to large scale orchestral music that will fall short with the Nenuphars. On the other hand, the Nenuphars will deliver in areas those speakers fall short in.

@mga71 I believe I’ve posted on this before (if memory serves). IF NOT, here goes:

With this version* of the F10 Neo drivers: it is my opinion, based on two and a half years of personal experience, that the power output from a 300B SET amp is in the "ideal range" to drive the Nenuphars (F10 Neo + TQWT enclosure).

I continue to be surprised that owners have not used 300B SET amps to drive the Nenuphars. Even if I ignore [IMO] the "ideal power output synergy", the far wider numbers and brand options available (versus other SET types), the spread of options over a wide price range, the healthy used market, all point to a higher probability match.

My previous 2A3s were purposely designed to output 4 Watts. My current 2A3s are purposely designed to output 3 Watts. In both cases, my percentage of large scale orchestral music listening has increased. Note: this is also due to and dependent of other system based changes.

My room is 19 ft wide (front wall) by 26 ft long by 9 ft tall.

Given what I’m hearing across a fairly wide range of music genres, for my preferences and needs AND room size, I would not want to go below 3 Watts. Again, this is for a very wide range of genres. If someone is focused on smaller scale acoustic genres, then lower output power will be fine.

Is anybody using a SET 300B amp (~8W) on the Nenuphar listening to large orchestral classical music? 

Is that expected to work well in a 12x18ft room (4mx6m)?

BTW I should make clear that my previous post regarding sub woofing the Nens is not meant to be a blanket recommendation to do same.  My set up puts the speakers far from corners, sidewalls and front wall (to emphasize breadth and depth of soundstage) and my ceiling height is over 20'.  So there is little ambient base reinforcement which accounts for the KEF KC62 making a more positive impact than it might in another set up.  And I meant 60Hz not 60db for crossover.

Re the Ansuz cables, I have a set of D1 which, given the improvements from the 1 generation to the 2 generation, may be equivalent to the C2 level. Agreed that their power products are the place to go; I bought their other wires in a package deal I couldn't refuse from someone who was upgrading at the time.

At a lower price point I would certainly recommend the LessLoss products; Atelier 13 in Nashville offers a loaner two-week home trial. The package contains an assortment, but once again power is the ruler.

- Robert

rwpollock - which model Ansuz cables are you referring to that you place as your first preference.

I have C2 level Mainz Power Distributor and C2 Mainz power cables. Have always been tempted by their speaker cables but seem to think (from what I've read and researched) that their power products are the sweet spot in their lineup.

rwpollock I am happily using Shunyata Alpha v2 speaker cables.

The Case for Base

Over the past few weeks I've been auditioning a KEF KC62 subwoofer with my Nenuphars.  I did this not because I'm a base head or because I felt the Nens lacking down there, but simply out of curiosity (and the positive feedback of others who have added a sub or two) and the fact that KEF offers a 30 day return.

But, spoiler alert, I won't be returning this remarkable little subwoofer.  I've incorporated it to have such an effect that I have to admit I had no idea what I was missing.  And it's not slam pounding my chest at 95 db but the overall added musicality, a rich foundation which, when the sub is off, makes the Nens sound unbalanced, almost thin (I know, hard to believe, but that is the impression when one is a/b-ing).  To use a b&w photographic metaphor, I was missing the dark shades of grey through to pure black with the Nens by themselves.  There is now a foundation to the music that was meant to be there and was missing.  The real test for me were simple acoustic recordings with stand up base (read Charlie Haden with anybody) and one or two other instruments.  With the KEF sub dialed in properly, bringing the base forward in a tuneful yet solid way, these recordings had more presence, involvement and reality.  As if their true balance was restored.  And of course the same held true if not even more so for music with bigger base, rock and orchestral, etc.    

Obviously I'm a new comer to the sub party and there are no doubt better applications than adding one ten inch sub woofer, but my room is fairly small and this tuneful gem is doing the job to my great delight.  BTW I did the sub "crawl" thing to find the best location, which oddly turned out to be right next to my listening chair. I use the 60db crossover and not quite half volume.  No muddying of mid bass or any other downside I can hear.  Fun stuff. Brings the Nens to another level of enjoyment.

<<I thought it would be interesting to know what speaker cables you are liking with the Nenuphar’s?>>

I've used three types. In order of preference:
Ansuz
LessLoss
Stealth
Of course the amplifier plays a significant role as well.

 - Robert