Big greg its called keritoconus look it up
confused and don't know what to do
We would like to buy a nice audio system and also have this double as a surround sound but listening to music is the priority. We have listened to many speakers but have settled on the B&W 804's. Now the challenge is to select a receiver and all the other accompaniments we require. We have a little challenge in that our home is a condo and the outside wall is all glass. The space is combined kitchen, living room, and dining room all open with hardwood floors and hard tile on the walls of the kitchen and a lot of granite counter tops. It seems that every where we go, the recommendations are different depending on what the store is selling and of course, the sales people would like us to buy the most expensive. What would give great sound without going crazy. We are thinking about 2 tribe sub woofers and space is limited and an in wall center B&W speaker but we don't know what we are doing and don't want to throw our money away. Help! Too many choices and we don't have enough knowledge. Thank you so much.
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Just a suggestion Lalin. If you havent already you should take the sales pitches you have posted hundreds of times and break it down by different subsets of products. Also your braggery about your vast experience in the different areas of audiophilia. Could be a fancy excel sheet you could pull from so you can cut and paste your 10 paragraph sales pitches to save tons of time! |
Big greg its called keritoconus look it upSo it's a medical condition that keeps you from understanding plain English when people suggest that you make positive contributions to this forum instead of pushing your wares and arguing with people? A little time on Google will reveal some basic "Do's and Don'ts" for social media. You would help yourself and perhaps even become a valued member of the forums if you took a few minutes to do a little research and practice some simple etiquette. Stop doing the don'ts and you'll be doing us all (including you) a favor! |
No Big Greg you were wondering why there was a simple gramatical error. As per do’s and don’ts, everyone has an idea of what do’s and don’t should and shouldn’t be. Again, people are free to read or not read our posts in the case of Rbach most of his 66 posts are complaining about us, is that contributing to the discussions, why aren’t you calling him out for his "bad" behavior. We are very transparent, we list in our discussions why we like and endorse or don’t endorse a certain product, we show our biases, and let people know we are dealers for that brand. Obviously we write on forums to help get our name out there, and perhaps gain a few new customers welcome to the new reality of the internet. However people are free to purchase from whom they feel can assist them the best. We would also let you know out of the hundreds of discussions we have had with people not everyone is magically going to become our clients, we have had discussion with people in Canada and South Africa as well as other countries we are not seling those people anything. The entire point of a forum is to exchange ideas, our first post was exactly what the OP should do and possibly look at in their quest. Many of our posts are not done to appear bragadocious but to let people know why we know what we know and our experience. When we list brands it is to make a point about the kind of store and our product experience. If you store sells only Denon receivers how can you make an argument that another brand may or may not better if you have zero experience with any other brand? For example we have had on display: Anthem Statement, Anthem Statement D2V, Audio Control Maestro, Marantz, Primare, and now an NAD Master Series surround sound processors, does that not make us valuable in discussing if there is a sonic difference between these processors? For Theater amplifiers we have used, Plinius, Audio Control, Hegel, Electrcomaniet, Primare, Chord, Parasound, Cary Audio, to name a few that we have used over the years. If Rbach was trying to make a point then he could have done it succinctly and do it one time or Rbach might have just stayed out of it and let a discussion unfold. Each person here is a grown up and can see for themselves what each post can bring to the discussion. As mentioned we have every right to post here, and considering we are professionals who have actually built hundreds of home theaters and setup thousands of music systems in 30 years means we are more than qualfied to talk and address the subject at hand. In fact how many people on these boards have been trained to design these kinds of systems? Probably none unless you are talking to another professional or someone who has worked in a store or in the industry. Even people who have worked in stores may or may not be trained in Theater design. Now not everyone wants to build a dedicated Home Theater but there are CEDIA courses in it, we have studied with Toni Grimmini, Keith Yatess, and Russ Herschelman. Google these guys and you can see their experiences. Many stores have personal that have never taken any courses. Audio Advice posted a nice video about center channels, they never talked about rake angle which can help position the center channel correctly, which can be done with footers or by creating a wedge, as many center channels tweeters may not be actually in line with the listener. They also didn't talk about measuring the main listeners ear height and setting up the center channel for the main listening chair. So there discussion although quite professonal was missing out on a lot of topics, such as what if my main loudspeakers center channel is too big or can't fit what else can I do? Or what if my main loudspeakers do not even offer a center channel? Or having a discussion on phantom cener channels. In the case of Millercarbon, he is entitled to his opinion, howerver the point being made is a professional is going to have a very different set of skills and experience vs a hobbist. In over 30 years of professional design we have designed and built and retrofitted many Home Theaters and Media Rooms. Personally I owned a Fosgate Pro Logic processor and was playing with Home Theater 30 years ago. We agree with Millercarbon and many of his points our main listening room is highly tweeked up with Stein Harmonizers, Acoustic System Resonators, a Just Add Power Sorceer Quantum box, Furutech Cable Risers, Furutech outlets, Audio Magic power conditioners and Shakti Holographs to name some of the tweeks in our reference room. Where we disagree is that having a center channel is crucial and having back loudspeakers are also something that is going to add a lot into the effect of creating a believable sound field which if done correctly will help immerse the listener in the action. Sure if we dabble in webdesign, does that make us a "web designer?" If you are a weekend Basketball player does that make you suitable for the NBA? The point is our company listing experience and products and training is to establish professional credentials and why we can guide or assist others. The reality is we can all learn from each other and explore and take in each others points of view. Big Greg you could have chosen to talk about your feelings on the subject which is how to construct a music and theater setup, do you have one? That kind of discussion stays to the heart of the subject and doesn’t bring the topic off course don’t you think? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
It doesn't matter to Dave Lalin how many people suggest that if he toned it down, his message might be more tolerable......he just doesn't get it. In fact it fuels him to write longer promotional posts listing more and more products that he carries. "If Rbach was trying to make a point then he could have done it succinctly and do it one time or Rbach might have just stayed out of it and let a discussion unfold." Dave, maybe you should take your own advice and promote and post less. BTW, I don't know why you insist on referring to me as 'him'. Women are audiophiles too. |
First Rbach most people who post here are men so it is generally assumed that most people here are so, sorry about that. In terms of mannors and decorum, please have the courtsey to address us by Audio Troy which is our handle on the site, we don't have your legal name listed so we address you by your handle here if you would like to provide your actual legal name then we can address you by it as well. As per your comments, if you actually read the above post everything is explained in great detail why and how we retort. We mentioned our tweeks for no other reason than to prove a point that we believe in settiing up a system like Millercarbon does, we mentioned why we feel that his thinking of not requiring surround sound components is wrong for those who actually want to enjoy the full benefits of those components. Again we illustrated the difference between a trained person, vs an untrained person. via the example of Sound Advice missing the importance of rake angle as well as not measuring the height of the main listeners ear and then setting up the tweeter's angle and not just the height of the speaker. Triad actually did this with the original In room Gold which actually had an adjustable tweeter which could be angled. Again Rbach what is your point, you expect us to sit by and not reply to you when you attack us? Please look at it this way you may not like us or our posts we are assisting people all the time some of those people purchase from us many do not. We handle these attacks the same way we provide back up information on how and why we feel the way we do, stop attacking us and see how much shorter the replies are. Again back to topic what kind of system do you have? What are your experiences? Please post some pictures of your setup, what are your feelings on Music and Theater systems? What is the best Home Theater you have heard? Do you or any of your friends have a Home Theater or a fully conceived Music and Theater rig? Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
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audiotroy, OK so I guess you had my previous post removed so I will be very careful and only post facts and quotes. Moderators please do not remove this post. Commenting on your constant promotional posts is not an attack. I would call your response to millercarbon more of an attack. millercarbon was kind enough to offer his response to the OP and your reply to him was. "Actually Miller you could not be futher from the truth." First off, you addressed millercarbon not by his handle on Audiogon but by Miller. Didn't you just say to me.... "In terms of mannors and decorum, please have the courtsey to address us by Audio Troy which is our handle on the site, we don't have your legal name listed so we address you by your handle here if you would like to provide your actual legal name then we can address you by it as well." Secondly, (futher) is spelled further, (mannors) is spelled manners and (courtsey) is spelled courtesy. You may not realize this, but you offended millercarbon. His passionate response to you on 2/3/20 is evidence to that. But you didn't stop there. Your reply to him on 2/4/20 was to suggest that you being a dealer meant you know way more about HT than he does....(which is not necessarily true). "Your level of experience can not be compared with ours we builds both real Movie Theaters and we design state of the art music systems and in 30 years of professional audio experience the amount of gear we have sold, and tested and how many customers we have worked with is in the thousands." If you can promote the products you sell on this forum then we should be able to respond in a civilized manor. As we have said before, some of us find your constant self promoting and downplaying of posters input and suggestions offensive. |
Rbach first we didn’t have your post removed. Second we meant no disrespect to Millercarbon by shortening his handle to Miller. Thirdly,we praised his dedication to two channel audio and commented that we also believe in tweeking up and using all the tools necessary to construct a great sounding music system. However, we did take offense to his original post where he said that connecting any speakers to a multi channel receiver is a waste or that in general multi channel is a waste, if Dagastino built a $50k surround sound receiver do you think that piece might sound good? We have personally experienced that you can have a great music and theater setup by using a high end intergrated amplifer combined with a surround sound receiver, the receiver powers the centers and backs and the high end integrated powers the mains, you have a CD player or streamer going into the integrated and boom, you have a dual purpose system that is excellent for both. In this context the receiver is powering the centers and the backs so its lower level of quality compared to the main amplifier will be less noticable. Again, there are indeed very high end receivers that are superb for both music and theater, the famous Arcam AVR 600 was praised through the rooof by J Peter Moncreif as offering fanatstic sound for both music and theater the newer Arcam and Audio Control models are actually quite good for both music and theater. The difference of course is the quality and extent of the main loudspeakers for a pair of top of the line KEF and B&W of course you need even better electronics, but that still doens’t negate the fact that a high end $6,000.00 receiver isn’t going to sound quite good, would it sound as good for pure music as a $6,000.00 pure music rig the answer would be not as good, also today there are some really superb mutli channel amplfiers and surround sound processors. For the true music and home theater person you can also purchase a surround sound processor and a multi channel amp and add a good tube preamplifier and still have a combined music and home theater setup that works wonderfully well for both so indeed there are many ways of constucting such a system. The point made is that for many people like the OP they want a good system that can do both music and home theater to tell someone that you can’t do both when of course you can is wrong and may deprive that person of having a really immersive and totally engaging experience for watchimg TV and Movies which a Home Theater system can provide and of course you can still accheive great sounding music. Rbach you need to lighten up, our advice is based on having experience, that is of course going to be completely different from Millercarbons. There is a world of difference between a hobbist and someone who does this for a Living. We totally respect Millercarbon and for him his way is best, just please don’t tell people that want a system that can do both music and theater that you can’t accheive good results and that multi channel is a waste. When we watch a movie in our theater it is a totally engrossing experience and unless you have a real Home Theater you have no idea on just how spectacular the experience can be. Do we want this experience for others of course we do, we also want people to fall in love with the magic of a great two channel music system, the point we were making is that yes you can do both it just requires selecting and integrating the right equipment. Just please don’’t tell someone that you don’t need a center channel or rears the fact is those two types of speakers create the magic of surround sound in the first place. It seems that Millercarbon was saying some of the same things that we are saying he just said them incorrectly: It is always better to invest in a high quality two channel rig than for the same budget a five or more channel rig as the two channel rig will sound far better for music. What Millercarbon could have said was that you can start with this kind of setup a two channel rig and then transition to a rig that can do both by adding a surround sound receiver, a center channel and rears. As for experience, wether you are talking to us or anyone else in the industry, do you honestly think that a person who is a hobbist is going to have as much experience as someone who does this for a livng 40-60 hours a week, 365 days a year? Most of our clients have built 4-5 systems in their lifetimes compare that to any store employee or owner, who has been in business, 10,20,30 years, and most of us have built hundres to thousands of systems, you learn a lot in doing this a business. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Where we disagree is that having a center channel is crucial and having back loudspeakers are also something that is going to add a lot into the effect of creating a believable sound field which if done correctly will help immerse the listener in the action. Right. So rather than let this slide by as a simple disagreement let's analyze it a little and hopefully educate so people can decide for themselves. The reasoning behind the need for a center channel is simply that people in a movie theater are seated all over the place. A believably rock solid center image and soundstage only works from the sweet spot. People seated far off-center, instead of hearing dialog coming from the screen between the speakers it will come from whatever speaker they're closest to. This of course will ruin the illusion we want to create. For this reason and this reason alone a center channel can help, if and only if you want people sitting all over the place to hear dialog as coming from the screen. Everyone with seating for lots of people should probably at least consider a center channel for this reason. So for people with lots of seating, or with seating everywhere but in the sweet spot, it might make some sense to have a center channel. Have you mentioned this, audiotroy? You may well have. Its a weakness of mine to avoid wasting my time reading the posts of certain exceptionally boorish misinformed serial posters. So if I missed it please let me know. In fact no, I want you to let us all know either way. Am I in fact stating things accurately? And are you in fact informing your customers? Can you direct me to the post where you covered this? Answers. Please. |
Millercarbon, you do know that you are talking to trained Home Theater designer and audiophile correct? Your statements are in fact wrong, the reason a center channel speaker is used, is to create a sense of anchoring the dialog from a point in the center of the screen and to create a point which the actors voices or action can pan either stage left or stage right. If you mix in the center channel then the left speaker is producing the dialog as well as the right, there is no anchor point below the screen, this does not create as good as an effect. The other advantage of a center channel is that the volume of the dialog can be adjusted to compensate for the room and for the clarity of the dialog which sometimes boosting a db or two from its normal level can increase dialog intelligibility. Can you use a phantom center yes you can, is the effect as good the answer in most cases is no. One of the reasons for Dolby Pro Logic and then DTS, Dolby Atmos and systems with ever more channels is to duplicate how sound will travel in a real world enviorenment. In fact the best Home Theater systems place the center channel behind the screen so the dialog abosolutely comes from the actors mouths. You also disdain rear speakers, okay man we have on occasion done systems where there was no room for a center channel, but without rears there is zero surround sound effect and you completely lose the magic. We have four theater setups in our shop, the first is a dedicated 5.1 Atmos theater in a dedicted room designed to be a Home Theater this room features accoutically paneling, the second room is our "lab" room which is a conventional 5.1 setupwhere we demo many high end loudspeakers and components in a regular room, and our third room is lower end surround sound setups and music systems. We wish you could hear what state of the art home theater is, the effects can be magnificent, we can also hear your points about doing a really top high end setup. The thing on these boads is that not everyone wants the same thing, we sell great all in one components like the Naim Uniti which has the amp, preamp, dac, and streamer in one box, that concept with a good pair of speakers makes a lot of people happy. Yes for the same money you could buy a separeate amp, and a streamer, but for many people the simplicity and elegance of an all in one fits their lives better, for others it is the concept of ultimate sound quality for the money. Yes a $50k two channel super tweaked up system is going to sound better for music than a $50k surround sound setup that is not the point the point is what does the person want, if you are a casual TV watcher than allocating funds the way you suggest may be optimum, however if the person really loves watchig TV or Movies and is captivated by the idea of a system that will help create a more immersive enviornment than haveing the extra loudspeakers and electronics is going to be a better setup. It really comes down to what the person wants, it is our contention that you can design a system that can serve two purposes beautifully and wherever possible the addition of the extra speakers will be worth the time, money and effort to do so. What we do agree with is that multi channel music is a gimmick that is unncessary. Hope that helps you understand our position and Millercarbon we have a lot of respect for how well dialed in your system is, we do many of the same things you do in our reference audio room, and we know that there are also people here who think the tweeky stuff is bunk yet we know like you do that resonators, power cords, power conditioners, footers etc can all be valuable tools in helping make a system sound like real music. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
raw33, I actually went this weekend to the Tampa, Fl. Audio Show and fell in love with the new Sonus Faber Olympica Nova’s. The cabinetry was amazing and the sound for the price was superb. I listened to the Nova ll and can’t imagine how much better the 3 and 5 are. They have been improved quite a bit compared to the original Olympica line. The base was improved significantly on these Nova’s and they are sonically well balanced. They are engaging without being in your face. I am confident these will be good for your Home Theatre and 2 channel listening. I would highly recommend these, since I am a Sonus Faber owner and fan. I am actually torn between the Verity Otello and the Sonus Faber 3 or 5 at this point, by the way the Otello’s are awesome as well. I am suggesting the Sonus Faber because they have the center and rears. Also, Sonus Faber is willing to ship them to you for audition without having to commit. They will refund you in full if you do not like them. Let me know what you decide... |
Thank you so much for your note. It was so kind of you to come back and inform me about something that obviously impressed you greatly. I have never heard of this brand, but of course, you know I am a newbie and am looking forward to checking it out. Thank you again for thinking to relate your findings! |
seems to me millercarbon simply will not compromise his amazing 2 channel system. audiotroy may hope for sales, however I believe they do make effort to share their experience which I appreciate. people ask for advice, they are highly experienced and give it. take it or leave it. I agree with audiotroy, and I said in my initial response: Home theater: CENTER CHANNEL is a must, and at least a small pair of rear surrounds (engaged when real surround content exists) are needed. Switch it to 2 channel if it is fake/created surround. That complicates Video IF it's sound is better without surround. Using 2 channel with video, omitting the center channel, it is important to get a center origin from the mains. 2 Channel precise imaging, in a sweet spot is of course wonderful, but add your spouse or a friend, 2 people wide, perhaps 3 (OP said 'we') and things change.Speakers specifically designed (or easily moved) for wide center imaging are thus important. Also consider, precise imaging for music is primarily for stationary musicians/singers, things 'stay' .... Imaging for Video is ALL OVER THE PLACE. I have low ceilings, I've never been tempted to add height speakers or bothered seeking a good 7.1 setup to hear, I have been, and am quite happy with my small home theater. My music system is separate, the 'real' speakers/equipment. As I said, I used the same system for both music and video for a while, but that was before good 5.1 system/content was plentiful. |
People, like my neice, many others, love minimalist Video Environments: TV/Monitor wall mounted, no deep cabinet for equipment below, no big speakers. They often compromise with wireless speakers. Big Mistake IMO. No way to meet OP's desire for great music out of a video system. A darn good AV Receiver is Big, Hot, Many Wires. Add Blu-Ray Player; Cable Box. That needed cabinet provides a place for a real Center Speaker directly below the screen. Real full frequency Mains. That has the potential for a darn good Music System. Add more music sources to bare bones and it gets big and complicated, many remotes involved. Reel to Reel? Turntable? Streaming? DAC? ..... It can be done, but it is Hard to get right. |
Oh yeah, legacy stuff, I also have a VCR, and a quiet fanless PC (video on the motherboard), with small wireless keyboard for total access to the Internet. PC was used a lot prior to smart tv's and the restricted browsers of early smart tv's. PC has access to all content on the home network, and better processor. IOW, a home theater has/might end up having more equipment than you start with. Minimalist system will force you to compromise in my experience. |
raw 33, You will find a lot of stuff on YouTube that you can see and hear. Keep in mind this is not an accurate sound, since it’s not a live audition but it helps. At least you will have an idea specially of what things look like and reviews as well. If you enter the manufacturer, model numbers and add YouTube in your search, it will give you a lot of info. on anything you are looking for. |
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Guys, Give audiotroy a break, he is just trying to make a living... He does give good advise in my opinion, since I have researched some of his quotations. I believe there is nothing wrong in trying to sell a product that he believes and has confirmed its a good product. Some vendors do have good intentions plus I have seen him recommend product that he does not sell. |
@raw33 I just listed a great Yamaha AVENTAGE home theater receiver if you want to check it out: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa0fa9-yamaha-aventage-rx-a3000-receivers |
I got to hear a home theater a few weeks ago that doubled as a 2 channel set-up. He is using 7 Dunlavys, a bunch of mirage (?) speakers on top of the dunlavys for atmos (?). Anyhow, it was quite the set-up. 3 15” subs and an enormous screen. He says retail on the set-up is $300k. He has like $15k in cables. His set-up was really cool and music sounded fantastic (SC IV). When he turned on need for speed and let me see the theater aspect, I was really impressed. It was right up there with the most dynamic imax theaters I have been to, if not better. It was pretty incredible. Regardless, you can have both apparently. Theater and music... |
If you shop around you can purchase excellent stuff for under 60k, even well under. Remember to negotiate pricing which will save you 20-30% of retail for certain, just stick to your guns. Also, keep in mind there is a lot of used stuff that is in excellent condition. If you go this route ask questions before purchasing including return policy if any and this will save you a lot of money. |
Thank you for checking in. We auditioned the Kef Ref 5's and decided to purchase the ones on sale. We really enjoyed their warm sound and felt it would be appropriate considering our constraints. I certainly have been gathering an education about the pros and cons of associated equipment via everyone so kindly sharing their knowledge and experience. We are planning on pursuing serious listening at the end of this month in an effort to make further decisions about our wants and desires within a budget. |
Awsome.... So you did your first purchase based on your own opinion and likes, kudos to you. Since, I am not sure if your going to separate your Home Theatre from your music listening, I will give you a piece of advise. The Kef’s can be a bit bright at times, so my suggestion is to buy gear that lean to the warm side like McIntosh, Pass Labs, etc. for your music side. Hey, keep having fun... |
@raw33 Go to the Audiogon main page and search for KEF. There are more used KEF Blades on A’gon today than at anytime I can remember. An amazing speaker and you can get something like a Hegel integrated, such as Hegel 390 or 590 to drive those Blades to very satisfying levels of sound. You COULD be done with the music part of your system with just those 2 pieces for $18K - $28K. https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=KEF I have spent several hours with the older Hegel 360 and the Blades. It was rather good, I attribute most of my happiness to the Blades. The KEF Reference 3 and 5 are very good, but for me, the Blades are really great and a big step above. Non-used Ref 3 and 5 are also on sale now at a surprisingly low price. I do not know much about HT but you could get some KEF LS50’s for the rear, also on sale now. There must be a center speaker in the KEF lineup that could round out a very fine HT system. This would not be a newbie system, but an end game system. At least for me. |