Op here is how you do it.
If the system is for both music and theater you purchase a really good integrated amplifier to run you main loudspeakers and use a good surround sound receiver to power the center and rear channels.
This system design will give you a huge improvement for music as the high end intergrated amplifier will far outperform any surround sound receiver, the reason is simple, in a $2-6k high end intergrated amplifier you only have two channels of amplification, two channels of preamplication, and two channels of dac if the amp has one, vs five to eleven channels of amplification, eleven channels of preap, eleven channels of dac, video switching, dolby decoding etc, all of those parts and circuit boards cost money which means less expensive parts are being used in the surround sound product.
To use this setup you just take the line outputs of the receiver and connect those to a line input or HT bybass option on the integrated amplifier you have one additional setup when watching you have to go to the integrated amplifier and switch its input to the HT input and perhaps match the volume depending on the int if it has a volume bybass.
As per the loudspeakers you should always buy the best you an afford, the 804D is a much more refinded speaker than the seven series. we would also recommend the Kef Reference line right now they are on 30% off from the factory as they are clearing out Rosewood and Walnut, the Kef Ref 3 are outstanding for both music and theater.
The Kef line we prefer over B&W especially for Theaters as the Kef is a true point source and the flared cone provides for exceptional dispersion which is critical for Home Theater.
If you stick with B&W look for a warm sounding high powered integrated amplifier to soften the Diamond tweeter a bit.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Actually Miller you could not be futher from the truth. We have a state of the art Home Theater in my shop: KEF Reference Full Surround sound system, Audio Control Processor, Hegel C55 amplifier, all high end cables, Isotek power conditioning, treated room. https://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/audio-doctor-jersey-city?select=LYTdw0XSqJh2BIa6MaoiyAHere is the theater we built for Rev Run https://www.google.com/search?q=rev%20runs%20rennovation%20secret%20cinema&newwindow=1&clien...The point is that a really well executed Home Theater setup can sound fantastic for music as well. Unfortunatly really good Home Theater electronics are expensive, therefore the recommendation to get a great two channel amplifer such as a Hegel, Unison Research, Krell, Naim etc that can drive a great set of music speakers with the surround sound receiver powering the center and rears. Also the OP may really love Movies and Video so you can have your cake and eat it too it just depends on how you design the system. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ: |
Op please call us we can get you on a proper path. |
Excuse us Millercarbon, please list your experience in setting up a Home Theater, all you do is denegrate those people who enjoy the benefits of both.
As noted we gave the OP a few solid recommendations how you can use an integrated amp along with a receiver to create a high performing two channel system that also doubles to do home theater by utilizing a surround sound receiver.
We have also listed the reasons why a two channel integrated amp will outperfrom a surround sound recevier.
Our experience in this area has been demonstrated by the fact that we ae a professional company that actually builds theaters and we are very into two channel music oriented systems as seen by the brands we sell, we sell mostly two channlel systems and parts.
As per selling the OP anytning that will all depend on if the OP wants to contact us and we can put something together that will work for the OP.
We have consulted with many people over the years because we have the experience and we have the products as well.
Our experience has been learned by studying with Keith Yates, Toni Grimani, Russ Herschelman, and by putting together 100’s of theater systems over 30 years as well as attending CEDIA and playing with and seting up many different brand of surround sound products.
The fact that you don’t understand just how engrossing an experience that great theater offers should sideline you from this conversation.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
What Soix is saying is valid. You want to match the center channel if the room is large 7.1 providing you have the correct positioning.
Anthem Mrx receivers are excellent.
Nad T758 or T777 have modular card upgrades, Dirac, and Blue Os.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
This retort is both to Millercarbon and Rbach.
First Millercarbon, you do have a nice two channel setup, however adding a screen to a two channel system does not make it into a Home Theater.
No center channel and no rears and no surround sound processor means you have stereo TV which can sound great but this kind of setup wiill not offer the level of involvement for video sources that you can get by having the additional components.
Your expreriences with combining "Home theater stores" and expecting to get real music out of a conventional home theater gear of course is not going to come anywhere near the level of quality that you will get out of a real music system, most "Home Theater stores" are run by people without training into design of Home Theaters nor have experience with High end two channel music systems. Also many Home Theater stores use fiberglass acoustical panels which can make the room over damped or worse have no real acoustical treatment at all.
If your room is overdamped or underdamped neither will sound good.
Miller you seem to disadain the concept of Home Theater and seem to feel that the extra speakers are a waste. On contrare the center channel anchors the dialog and the real channels help create the expansive feeling of space which is why there are rear speakers in the first place.
If you also look at our posts we suggested that the OP look at a high end intergrated amplifier for the important job of providing the best possible wo channel sound and use a surorund sound receiver to power the rears and the center channel this is the same kind of setup you are also using except you have tube monoblocks and a preamp instead of an intergrated amplifier.
Your level of experience can not be compared with ours we builds both real Movie Theaters and we design state of the art music systems and in 30 years of professional audio experience the amount of gear we have sold, and tested and how many customers we have worked with is in the thousands.
As per the line that there are no such things as great Surround sound receviers the Audio Control and Arcam lines sound really quite good.
There are some also pretty amazing sound surround sound processor/preamps the Theta line, Audio Control, and the new NAD M17 MK 2 actually sound quite fantastic. The new Hegel C55 is a true music amplifier that just happens to provide three additional channels over a comparable two channel Hegel amplifer.
We have built theaters for major celebrities and have been trained by Toni Grimani Keith Yates and Russ Herschelman.
We have four soon to be five sound rooms which include both pure music rooms and our two channel business partners include some of the finest music gear in the world including: Naim, T+A, Electrocompaniet, Krell, Unison Research, Micromega, Zesto, Hegel, Coda, Lumin, Bricasti, Anthem, Audio Control, KEF,Paradigm, Dali, ATC, Quad, Cabasse, Legacy, Alta audio and lots more.
Rbach we write on these forums not to necessarily sell anything, we have helped clients from all over the country, and even in other countries all without selling them anything.
Why don’t you contact Fast who wanted to sell his brand new Kef Ref 5 because he couldn’t get them to sound right in his room, we started talking on the boards and he reached out to us and we advised him on what he needed to do to make the system sound great.
We sent him a power conditioner, power cables, interconnects, footers, room tuning accessories, a new dac, and music server and after working on his system for a few days which included repostioning his KEF Reference Fives, the system sounded fantastic.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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rbach sorry you feel that way but the reality is our company has way more experience with most of the products that are being discussed here then many people on these boards.
Our line list it very wide and most of the time if a product is hot we are going to pursue getting it if we feel that the addition of that line is going to be beneficial.
Our business model provides for a low overhead which enables us to funnel more money into product acccquisitions than many of the large stores we compete with.
We also go to most of the other audio shows around the country and get a chance to listen to a huge variety of gear.
Also we have over 30 years of experience in designing both music and home theater systems.
Rbach very rarely do we PM anybody, however, you are correct that we do chime in on conversations that we have products that we may feel may be of interest to the poster, we can not write in every forum post there just isn't enough time.
As per talking about products that we don't sell, perhaps the reason we don't sell them is that we feel that the products we currently have are better or may offer similar perfromance for less money.
We sell over 60 brands of gear we have lines we don't endorse we perfer Kef over B&W, we don't like Mcintosh gear, nor Dagastino, don't love Vandersteen, we make our biases well known and there are reasons why we don't carry these brands:
Mcintosh uses Automformers which are unnecssary with a solid state amplfier and limit transparency, don't like Dagastino too expensive for the sound quality and you are paying a lot for the styling, Vandersteen sounds too rolled off for most models, we can go on an on, Magico tends to sound a bit on the boring side to us etc, etc.
Rbach most dealers believe the products they sell are better for a reason we have a ton of great everything, we don't force or endorse any one line more than any other, if you come to our shop we would recommend Paradigm, or Kef, or Legacy or possibly Alta audio or Vimberg for our best loudspeakers.
However, for applications like theater the KEF line is one of our best recommendations as the dual concentric tweeter provides a true point source and the slight flared design on the cone provides a wide dispersion capablity that most loudspeakers lack.
Rbach we have a superb track record of assisting clients all over the country some people have directly purchased from us while others have not, but have still been thrilled with the products and advise.
We have extolled the sound quality of the Micromega line and have talked with several clients that purchased the M100 or M150 and have loved the piece, we have sold not a single one to anyone on these boards.
The fact is that there are tons of people with opinions we have the direct experience, product knowledge and product selection to be able to make a rationale discussion on to the merits and to the pros and cons of most of the products on the market.
You can choose to read our posts or not to read them.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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Excuse me Rbach we seems like just you.
There are tons of people here that read and respect our posts.
Doesnt seem like you add anything to the discussion at hand
Can you post some pictures of your home theater or music and theater rig so others can glean your commitment and system experiences? |
Big greg its called keritoconus look it up |
No Big Greg you were wondering why there was a simple gramatical error.
As per do’s and don’ts, everyone has an idea of what do’s and don’t should and shouldn’t be.
Again, people are free to read or not read our posts in the case of Rbach most of his 66 posts are complaining about us, is that contributing to the discussions, why aren’t you calling him out for his "bad" behavior.
We are very transparent, we list in our discussions why we like and endorse or don’t endorse a certain product, we show our biases, and let people know we are dealers for that brand.
Obviously we write on forums to help get our name out there, and perhaps gain a few new customers welcome to the new reality of the internet. However people are free to purchase from whom they feel can assist them the best.
We would also let you know out of the hundreds of discussions we have had with people not everyone is magically going to become our clients, we have had discussion with people in Canada and South Africa as well as other countries we are not seling those people anything.
The entire point of a forum is to exchange ideas, our first post was exactly what the OP should do and possibly look at in their quest.
Many of our posts are not done to appear bragadocious but to let people know why we know what we know and our experience.
When we list brands it is to make a point about the kind of store and our product experience. If you store sells only Denon receivers how can you make an argument that another brand may or may not better if you have zero experience with any other brand?
For example we have had on display: Anthem Statement, Anthem Statement D2V, Audio Control Maestro, Marantz, Primare, and now an NAD Master Series surround sound processors, does that not make us valuable in discussing if there is a sonic difference between these processors?
For Theater amplifiers we have used, Plinius, Audio Control, Hegel, Electrcomaniet, Primare, Chord, Parasound, Cary Audio, to name a few that we have used over the years.
If Rbach was trying to make a point then he could have done it succinctly and do it one time or Rbach might have just stayed out of it and let a discussion unfold.
Each person here is a grown up and can see for themselves what each post can bring to the discussion.
As mentioned we have every right to post here, and considering we are professionals who have actually built hundreds of home theaters and setup thousands of music systems in 30 years means we are more than qualfied to talk and address the subject at hand.
In fact how many people on these boards have been trained to design these kinds of systems? Probably none unless you are talking to another professional or someone who has worked in a store or in the industry. Even people who have worked in stores may or may not be trained in Theater design. Now not everyone wants to build a dedicated Home Theater but there are CEDIA courses in it, we have studied with Toni Grimmini, Keith Yatess, and Russ Herschelman. Google these guys and you can see their experiences. Many stores have personal that have never taken any courses.
Audio Advice posted a nice video about center channels, they never talked about rake angle which can help position the center channel correctly, which can be done with footers or by creating a wedge, as many center channels tweeters may not be actually in line with the listener. They also didn't talk about measuring the main listeners ear height and setting up the center channel for the main listening chair. So there discussion although quite professonal was missing out on a lot of topics, such as what if my main loudspeakers center channel is too big or can't fit what else can I do? Or what if my main loudspeakers do not even offer a center channel? Or having a discussion on phantom cener channels.
In the case of Millercarbon, he is entitled to his opinion, howerver the point being made is a professional is going to have a very different set of skills and experience vs a hobbist.
In over 30 years of professional design we have designed and built and retrofitted many Home Theaters and Media Rooms.
Personally I owned a Fosgate Pro Logic processor and was playing with Home Theater 30 years ago.
We agree with Millercarbon and many of his points our main listening room is highly tweeked up with Stein Harmonizers, Acoustic System Resonators, a Just Add Power Sorceer Quantum box, Furutech Cable Risers, Furutech outlets, Audio Magic power conditioners and Shakti Holographs to name some of the tweeks in our reference room.
Where we disagree is that having a center channel is crucial and having back loudspeakers are also something that is going to add a lot into the effect of creating a believable sound field which if done correctly will help immerse the listener in the action.
Sure if we dabble in webdesign, does that make us a "web designer?"
If you are a weekend Basketball player does that make you suitable for the NBA? The point is our company listing experience and products and training is to establish professional credentials and why we can guide or assist others.
The reality is we can all learn from each other and explore and take in each others points of view.
Big Greg you could have chosen to talk about your feelings on the subject which is how to construct a music and theater setup, do you have one? That kind of discussion stays to the heart of the subject and doesn’t bring the topic off course don’t you think?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Rbach first we didn’t have your post removed.
Second we meant no disrespect to Millercarbon by shortening his handle to Miller.
Thirdly,we praised his dedication to two channel audio and commented that we also believe in tweeking up and using all the tools necessary to construct a great sounding music system.
However, we did take offense to his original post where he said that connecting any speakers to a multi channel receiver is a waste or that in general multi channel is a waste, if Dagastino built a $50k surround sound receiver do you think that piece might sound good?
We have personally experienced that you can have a great music and theater setup by using a high end intergrated amplifer combined with a surround sound receiver, the receiver powers the centers and backs and the high end integrated powers the mains, you have a CD player or streamer going into the integrated and boom, you have a dual purpose system that is excellent for both.
In this context the receiver is powering the centers and the backs so its lower level of quality compared to the main amplifier will be less noticable.
Again, there are indeed very high end receivers that are superb for both music and theater, the famous Arcam AVR 600 was praised through the rooof by J Peter Moncreif as offering fanatstic sound for both music and theater the newer Arcam and Audio Control models are actually quite good for both music and theater.
The difference of course is the quality and extent of the main loudspeakers for a pair of top of the line KEF and B&W of course you need even better electronics, but that still doens’t negate the fact that a high end $6,000.00 receiver isn’t going to sound quite good, would it sound as good for pure music as a $6,000.00 pure music rig the answer would be not as good, also today there are some really superb mutli channel amplfiers and surround sound processors.
For the true music and home theater person you can also purchase a surround sound processor and a multi channel amp and add a good tube preamplifier and still have a combined music and home theater setup that works wonderfully well for both so indeed there are many ways of constucting such a system.
The point made is that for many people like the OP they want a good system that can do both music and home theater to tell someone that you can’t do both when of course you can is wrong and may deprive that person of having a really immersive and totally engaging experience for watchimg TV and Movies which a Home Theater system can provide and of course you can still accheive great sounding music.
Rbach you need to lighten up, our advice is based on having experience, that is of course going to be completely different from Millercarbons.
There is a world of difference between a hobbist and someone who does this for a Living. We totally respect Millercarbon and for him his way is best, just please don’t tell people that want a system that can do both music and theater that you can’t accheive good results and that multi channel is a waste.
When we watch a movie in our theater it is a totally engrossing experience and unless you have a real Home Theater you have no idea on just how spectacular the experience can be.
Do we want this experience for others of course we do, we also want people to fall in love with the magic of a great two channel music system, the point we were making is that yes you can do both it just requires selecting and integrating the right equipment.
Just please don’’t tell someone that you don’t need a center channel or rears the fact is those two types of speakers create the magic of surround sound in the first place.
It seems that Millercarbon was saying some of the same things that we are saying he just said them incorrectly:
It is always better to invest in a high quality two channel rig than for the same budget a five or more channel rig as the two channel rig will sound far better for music.
What Millercarbon could have said was that you can start with this kind of setup a two channel rig and then transition to a rig that can do both by adding a surround sound receiver, a center channel and rears.
As for experience, wether you are talking to us or anyone else in the industry, do you honestly think that a person who is a hobbist is going to have as much experience as someone who does this for a livng 40-60 hours a week, 365 days a year? Most of our clients have built 4-5 systems in their lifetimes compare that to any store employee or owner, who has been in business, 10,20,30 years, and most of us have built hundres to thousands of systems, you learn a lot in doing this a business.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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First Rbach most people who post here are men so it is generally assumed that most people here are so, sorry about that.
In terms of mannors and decorum, please have the courtsey to address us by Audio Troy which is our handle on the site, we don't have your legal name listed so we address you by your handle here if you would like to provide your actual legal name then we can address you by it as well.
As per your comments, if you actually read the above post everything is explained in great detail why and how we retort.
We mentioned our tweeks for no other reason than to prove a point that we believe in settiing up a system like Millercarbon does, we mentioned why we feel that his thinking of not requiring surround sound components is wrong for those who actually want to enjoy the full benefits of those components.
Again we illustrated the difference between a trained person, vs an untrained person. via the example of Sound Advice missing the importance of rake angle as well as not measuring the height of the main listeners ear and then setting up the tweeter's angle and not just the height of the speaker. Triad actually did this with the original In room Gold which actually had an adjustable tweeter which could be angled.
Again Rbach what is your point, you expect us to sit by and not reply to you when you attack us? Please look at it this way you may not like us or our posts we are assisting people all the time some of those people purchase from us many do not.
We handle these attacks the same way we provide back up information on how and why we feel the way we do, stop attacking us and see how much shorter the replies are.
Again back to topic what kind of system do you have? What are your experiences? Please post some pictures of your setup, what are your feelings on Music and Theater systems? What is the best Home Theater you have heard? Do you or any of your friends have a Home Theater or a fully conceived Music and Theater rig?
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ |
Millercarbon, you do know that you are talking to trained Home Theater designer and audiophile correct?
Your statements are in fact wrong, the reason a center channel speaker is used, is to create a sense of anchoring the dialog from a point in the center of the screen and to create a point which the actors voices or action can pan either stage left or stage right.
If you mix in the center channel then the left speaker is producing the dialog as well as the right, there is no anchor point below the screen, this does not create as good as an effect.
The other advantage of a center channel is that the volume of the dialog can be adjusted to compensate for the room and for the clarity of the dialog which sometimes boosting a db or two from its normal level can increase dialog intelligibility.
Can you use a phantom center yes you can, is the effect as good the answer in most cases is no.
One of the reasons for Dolby Pro Logic and then DTS, Dolby Atmos and systems with ever more channels is to duplicate how sound will travel in a real world enviorenment.
In fact the best Home Theater systems place the center channel behind the screen so the dialog abosolutely comes from the actors mouths.
You also disdain rear speakers, okay man we have on occasion done systems where there was no room for a center channel, but without rears there is zero surround sound effect and you completely lose the magic.
We have four theater setups in our shop, the first is a dedicated 5.1 Atmos theater in a dedicted room designed to be a Home Theater this room features accoutically paneling, the second room is our "lab" room which is a conventional 5.1 setupwhere we demo many high end loudspeakers and components in a regular room, and our third room is lower end surround sound setups and music systems.
We wish you could hear what state of the art home theater is, the effects can be magnificent, we can also hear your points about doing a really top high end setup.
The thing on these boads is that not everyone wants the same thing, we sell great all in one components like the Naim Uniti which has the amp, preamp, dac, and streamer in one box, that concept with a good pair of speakers makes a lot of people happy. Yes for the same money you could buy a separeate amp, and a streamer, but for many people the simplicity and elegance of an all in one fits their lives better, for others it is the concept of ultimate sound quality for the money.
Yes a $50k two channel super tweaked up system is going to sound better for music than a $50k surround sound setup that is not the point the point is what does the person want, if you are a casual TV watcher than allocating funds the way you suggest may be optimum, however if the person really loves watchig TV or Movies and is captivated by the idea of a system that will help create a more immersive enviornment than haveing the extra loudspeakers and electronics is going to be a better setup.
It really comes down to what the person wants, it is our contention that you can design a system that can serve two purposes beautifully and wherever possible the addition of the extra speakers will be worth the time, money and effort to do so.
What we do agree with is that multi channel music is a gimmick that is unncessary.
Hope that helps you understand our position and Millercarbon we have a lot of respect for how well dialed in your system is, we do many of the same things you do in our reference audio room, and we know that there are also people here who think the tweeky stuff is bunk yet we know like you do that resonators, power cords, power conditioners, footers etc can all be valuable tools in helping make a system sound like real music.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ
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