confused and don't know what to do


We would like to buy a nice audio system and also have this double as a surround sound but listening to music is the priority. We have listened to many speakers but have settled on the B&W 804's. Now the challenge is to select a receiver and all the other accompaniments we require. We have a little challenge in that our home is a condo and the outside wall is all glass. The space is combined kitchen, living room, and dining room all open with hardwood floors and hard tile on the walls of the kitchen and a lot of granite counter tops. It seems that every where we go, the recommendations are different depending on what the store is selling and of course, the sales people would like us to buy the most expensive. What would give great sound without going crazy. We are thinking about 2 tribe sub woofers and space is limited and an in wall center B&W speaker but we don't know what we are doing and don't want to throw our money away. Help! Too many choices and we don't have enough knowledge. Thank you so much.
raw33

Showing 5 responses by elliottbnewcombjr

I’ve done this, it’s hard to get right, and imaging requirements are different for Video and Music.

first, forget which brand/models of equipment and clarify a lot, then go shopping:

A. WHAT and WHERE

a1. what equipment, future changes, future additions. AV and Music is a longer list for sure.

a2. access, operational heights, remote control beams, access to power and cables now and in the future, relocation’s. After a few months, you may realize ’we should have put this there’ ...

a3. most people want minimalist, not clarifying 1 and 2, resulting in a few or many less than ideal compromises.

B. CENTER CHANNEL,

b1. Center Channel is VERY important, did I say VERY important.

b2. Center Channel LOCATION. Best is directly below the image, to keep the source of dialog and most of the sound originating from the image. Many people compromise the center, don’t do it.

b3. Center Channel ’SOUND’. You can adjust the volume of any center, but, you want the ’sound’ of the center to properly blend with your mains, so pick your mains and center together, solving both location and look.

b4. Center Channel LOOK. The opposite of Children, they are to be ’HEARD BUT NOT SEEN’. I always recommend the TV have a black frame, so that any black bars in any aspect ratio are not ’framed’ by another color; framing black bars is what makes them so apparent and undesireable and leads to the horrible stretching of images. So, black center channel? Match color directly below the tv? You need to think this thru when seeing what is offered by various brands.



C. WIDE CENTER IMAGE.

c1. VIDEO, Center Speaker ON. you want a wide center image, lets say for 3 people wide on a sofa. With the . Perfect in the middle, darn good off center, this effects dispersion choice of the Mains.

c2. MUSIC: Center Speaker OFF. Normally not as wide, but, you will also be listening to music in that location, perhaps together, Perfect in the middle, darn good off center, this definitely effects dispersion choice of the Mains.

My solution, many years ago, was DBX Soundfield 100, designed specifically for wide center image. I don’t know who makes what these days.

https://www.google.com/search?q=dbx+soundfield&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS881US881&sxsrf=ACYBGNSGzU-U28ZflNViXJy6X4W5kDD4DQ:1580128617839&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=j_TtQ2SC3R3aKM%253A%252CjVjpjMyjCYeg8M%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTh5zjZZUFVmeuCD-28vz0F_qCHvQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_0tzn5aPnAhWjZDUKHVf1B0EQ9QEwBHoECAoQCg#imgrc=j_TtQ2SC3R3aKM:

D. FLEXIBILITY

d1. TOE IN. IF you cannot find current mains that produces a wide center by design, you can get the same wide center image from any stereo pair: toe them in directly facing the center spot. Move left, you are closer to the left, but the right is facing you more directly, the same principle as the DBX. It works.


d2. RELOCATION. You can remain flexible, IF you can easily adjust the position of your mains. Adjust just toe in, or, one location for Video, another location for Music. My mains are very heavy, on 3 concealed wheels, easy to adjust toe in only; and/or distance from walls as needed. 3 wheels find level without wobble, and divide the weight by 3 not 4, more lbs/sq. inch.

E. STEREO DIRECTIONAL BASS, from MAINS NOT SUBS.

e1. Best is to get enough bass out of your mains and skip subs. Not only for full range listening, both Video and Music, also to eliminate complicated controls of subs, especially if using separate amps for Video surround sound and a 2 channel amp for music.

F. REAR CHANNEL SPEAKERS.

f1. IMO, are the least critical, the exception being how to get wires to them. Most people run them too loud. Except designated effects, heliocopters coming in .... Generally you should not be aware of them, until you turn them off, then the image ’crashes’ to the front.

f2. Cable makes false surround, often 2 channel sounds better. I cannot count the times the sound improved when I changed the AV receiver to 2 Channel. It happily ’crashes’ to the front, as originally recorded/balanced/imaged.


I personally would go with no subs, full range mains, and use a high quality Av receiver for Surround Sound and 2 channel Music.

You can always add a separate 2 channel amp later, IF you plan space for it now.
seems to me

millercarbon simply will not compromise his amazing 2 channel system.

audiotroy may hope for sales, however I believe they do make effort to share their experience which I appreciate. people ask for advice, they are highly experienced and give it. take it or leave it.

I agree with audiotroy, and I said in my initial response:

Home theater: CENTER CHANNEL is a must, and at least a small pair of rear surrounds (engaged when real surround content exists) are needed.

Switch it to 2 channel if it is fake/created surround. That complicates Video IF it's sound is better without surround. Using 2 channel with video, omitting the center channel, it is important to get a center origin from the mains. 2 Channel precise imaging, in a sweet spot is of course wonderful, but add your spouse or a friend, 2 people wide, perhaps 3 (OP said 'we') and things change.Speakers specifically designed (or easily moved) for wide center imaging are thus important. 

Also consider, precise imaging for music is primarily for stationary musicians/singers, things 'stay' .... Imaging for Video is ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I have low ceilings, I've never been tempted to add height speakers or bothered seeking a good 7.1 setup to hear, I have been, and am quite happy with my small home theater.

My music system is separate, the 'real' speakers/equipment.

As I said, I used the same system for both music and video for a while, but that was before good 5.1 system/content was plentiful.
People, like my neice, many others, love minimalist Video Environments: TV/Monitor wall mounted, no deep cabinet for equipment below, no big speakers. They often compromise with wireless speakers.

Big Mistake IMO. No way to meet OP's desire for great music out of a video system.

A darn good AV Receiver is Big, Hot, Many Wires. Add Blu-Ray Player; Cable Box. That needed cabinet provides a place for a real Center Speaker directly below the screen. Real full frequency Mains. That has the potential for a darn good Music System.

Add more music sources to bare bones and it gets big and complicated, many remotes involved. Reel to Reel? Turntable? Streaming? DAC? ..... 

It can be done, but it is Hard to get right.
Oh yeah, legacy stuff,

I also have a VCR, and a quiet fanless PC (video on the motherboard), with small wireless keyboard for total access to the Internet. PC was used a lot prior to smart tv's and the restricted browsers of early smart tv's. PC has access to all content on the home network, and better processor.

IOW, a home theater has/might end up having more equipment than you start with. Minimalist system will force you to compromise in my experience.