COAX Cable Recommendations.... need some glitter

... Quick sidenote. I see various cables such as Acoustic Zed and Nordost Heimdall that are listed as COAX. It seems the coax input in my DAC and the Coax output on the Nagra Streamer are RCA....

Questions:

-Will any RCA cable work here? 

-If an adapter is required, is this something desired to avoid? no adapter? 

Thanks,

Richard

High end audio sound quality is a balance. There are a number of overall characteristics. To me one of the most important it detail / musicality. You have already noticed this. The Cardas cable calmed your overly high frequencies. High frequency dominance gives you sparkle or as you called it glitter. 

The glitter. Caution. With the ultra detailed presentation you typically get high frequency hash and overly forward (highlighted) treble and relative attenuation of the midrange.  The benefit is that you hear things you have never heard before. The down side is the music tends to become dryer, fatiguing (from the hash that you don’t hear... but just puts pressure on your ear drums), and less musical. I attended the symphony for a decade and would go in and listen as if it was my system. Wow, you want to figure out what is wrong with your system... do that. 

All of these system issues are intolerable to me now. I learned slowly about them by relentless pursuit of detail and imaging, without understanding of the down side. So, I’m just recommending to be aware of the down side. I’d recommend listing to some real acoustic instrumental music and noting how forward the treble actually is... how so much is powerful midrange, if you reproduce this ... you’ll get the music... what you want to move your foot, sway, and get lost in. 

Coax = RCA... RCA refers to the plug ends and coax is the wire configuration... as opposed to XLR with three conductors. 

Hello @whyrichard , as usual, @ghdprentice is giving sage advice.  You did say 'calm the shrill' so maybe we are agreeing, but glitter often does coincide with harsh, fatiguing overextended highs which at first sound amazing and then lead to listening fatigue.  Its ok, I call the goodness in my system 'sparkle' and to me it means resolving but without glare or fatigue.

Looking at the newer Nagra streamer, it has USB and coax outputs.  You need to pick which one is best for your DAC.  But build materials of the cable do matter.  For me, all copper cables are smoother than any I have tried with silver in them.

I have used excellent digital cables from Network Acoustics, and my favorite, a Realization  from Kubala Sosna.

And yes, Digital Coax cables use an RCA connector, but the cable should be built specifically for digital.

For a coaxial digital cable, you want a precision-engineered 75-ohm cable with uniform impedance (incl. connector) to ensure accurate signal transmission and to prevent signal reflections caused by impedance mismatches with input/output devices. This requirement is less critical for analog applications.

Second, look for insulation with a low dielectric constant. The dielectric constant of vacuum and air is close to 1.0, while Teflon (PTFE) is around 2.0. Air-injected Teflon insulation can reduce the effective dielectric constant to around 1.4–1.5. Some products have developed such lower dielectric materials, which can significantly improve signal transmission, especially at high frequencies. Look for cables using such materials.

Once the impedance rating is matched, ideal length that people refer as 1.5-2.0 m can be less restrictive because the reflection is minimized.  If cable is high quality, well-shielded and imp. matched, 1 m is just fine and will perform equally well.

This coax shootout is a bit old, but may be helpful

I don't know what your budget is bur look into Snake River Audio. He has 2 levels of digital cables. Call him. his name is Jonny.

+1 @ghdprentice   (seems like I +1 George often).  He said it all … it’s all about balance … and cautions otherwise.  My recommendation as always:  WyWires Diamond if you can swing the spend, otherwise use the Platinum as I do.  

Just buy the most expensive one you can afford and let the expectation bias run wild.

@whyrichard 

No you should not use just any RCA cable.  You need a digital 75 Ohm RCA and the reason there’s two RCA inputs on the DAC is because you might want a streamer and a CD transport in your system.

All the best.

@whyrichard Others have covered the main technical bits already. I always go with a brand that has a generous return policy, so I can try out the cables in my own system with low risk. With most of the better brands you are only out shipping if you end up returning it.

Look into smaller brands like Triode Wire Lab, Veritas Cables, Audio Art, DH Labs, or Morrow Audio. All of those should have quality digital RCA cables at fair prices with good return policies. 

Thank you all for your suggestions! I am so grateful for the sage advice in this group!!!!

I went ahead with the Acoustical Zen silver MC2. I think the silver will serve this setup well. I have not yet received the Accoustical Zen Coax nor the Nagra Streamer, so when I hook them up I will let you know how it goes…. 

In the meantime, I am really blown away as to the expansive difference this Cardas Clear USB cable has with my system at present, running straight out of my mini running Roon into my DAC. It’s frankly a huge difference, when compared with the Audio Quest Cinnamon Cable I had before. It in my mind, proved to me that the handling of the digital stream is just as important as the analogue stream.

Really, since putting together the PAP speakers, the Prima Luna Amp, and the Holo Audio DAC, every single wire makes a large difference to me.

Alchemy of electrons! The music!

Thank you all,

Richard 

OP ..."It in my mind, proved to me that the handling of the digital stream is just as important as the analogue stream."

Back in the late 80's I got a two box CD player. Just to happily prove to myself that a digital interconnect couldn't possibly make a difference like in analog, I replaced the digital interconnect with a good aftermarket one. Jaw drop... a bigger difference than I had ever heard between analog components. Observation can be a really useful tool. 

Thanks for sharing. 

I replaced the digital interconnect with a good aftermarket one. Jaw drop... a bigger difference than I had ever heard between analog components.

@ghdprentice  Ditto.  One of biggest surprises I’ve had in audio. 

I am already upgrading the zen coax with a Cardas clear coax, will arrive this week. I just couldn’t get over how the nagra with the audio zen seemed a little murky when compared to the mini with a Cardas clear usb… 

so hoping the Nagra streamer with a Cardas clear coax will be the heavens bells…

thanks all,

r

I went ahead with the Acoustical Zen silver MC2. I think the silver will serve this setup well...

I just couldn’t get over how the nagra with the audio zen seemed a little murky ...

Murky presentation on a $5k streamer! It might actually be caused by the MC2—not Albert Einstein’s MC², but Acoustic Zen’s MC2. This digital coaxial cable, sold by The Cable Company, has an impedance of 110 ohms. I was dumbfounded—who on earth designs and manufactures a 110-ohm digital coaxial cable these days? Interestingly, this cable doesn’t appear on Acoustic Zen’s own website, but it does show up on The Cable Company’s site for $500, and yes, it’s clearly listed as 110 ohms, the same specs for aes/ebu.

There are several uninformed individuals here (no names mentioned) promoting this cable, and you might be one of the victims.

When you use a 110-ohm digital coaxial cable on a 75-ohm standard connector of sensitive, delicate audio gear, reflections can occur. This leads to a ‘murky’ presentation—meaning veiled sound, reduced transparency, or even congestion during complex passages.

If you still crave silver (plated), try the DH Labs D-750 digital coaxial cable—a true 75-ohm design—and see how it stacks up against Cardas. Both features gas-injection and extremely low dielectric constant that yields low signal loss.  Personally, I enjoy the smoothness of Cardas, but DH Labs wins me over with its greater dynamics and punch, especially in the low end.

I recently tried Audience FtontRow Reserve coax cable and it kicked butt in every department. Clarity, smoothness, details, bass, stage, etc.

It’s very expensive though. If you can find a used one, grab it. 

It might actually be caused by the MC2—not Albert Einstein’s MC², but Acoustic Zen’s MC2. This digital coaxial cable, sold by The Cable Company, has an impedance of 110 ohms. I was dumbfounded—who on earth designs and manufactures a 110-ohm digital coaxial cable these days?

@lanx0003  Someone here recently asked AZ and they told him the RCA version of the MC2 is indeed 75 Ohms.  Also, all the reviews across the board for this cable are stellar as is my own personal experience with it as well as many others here.  But if it’s not a good fit with the OP’s system that’s all that matters.  I would mention to check if the cable was installed with the correct directionality because that could significantly affect the sound.   Be interested to hear if the Cardas is an improvement.

@lanx0003 @soix A while back, I messaged AZ about my MC2.  Responses are below.  The rca connectors on my cable look exactly like the 75 ohm cables that he mentioned.  Does that make it 75 ohm?  Idk.  He's not real clear.  What I do know is it's the only coaxial digital cable that I've tried that made a big improvement when using my Denon DCD-1700NE as a transport. 

Ok, in fact MC2 is balance design and perfect for AES/EBU but many customers ask using MC2 with RCA (75 Ohm) sound still better than most true 75 ohm digital cables.

Yes, it is pure zero crystal silver conductors ….

Robert

If Mc2 using RCA and they are not true 75 ohm… it about 50 ohm.

If you want true 75 that we have absolute 75 or silver byte digital cable.

Robert

Try and listen !! if you have others 75 ohm digital cables that you can compare this one see what happen.

Robert

Seems I got to this thread too late. I owned an MC2 earlier in my journey, and it didn’t last. While it wasn’t bad, it wasn’t great either. Just typical run of the mill. If anything, I felt it was a bit soft and rounded. If it’s returnable after you receive it, you may want to consider doing so.

On the used market, I really liked the Tara Labs with ISM Onboard (very old, but quite good). Great sparkle. The DH Labs D-750 suggested above is really good for its price point new. And I also recommend looking at the Synergistic Research Foundation XL, whose digital cables just came out this year. I’m an authorized dealer for the brand, so take that how you’d like, but the Foundation XL loom takes many attributes from their TOTL SRX XL and trickles them down into a value-oriented line that packs a punch at its price point. 

@sls883  Hey thanks for forwarding Robert’s response.  I’m surprised/disappointed AZ would even make an SPDIF cable that’s not a true 75 Ohm cable especially at this price level.  That said, it sounds fantastic as you and many others have also found, and that’s really what matters in the end and mine’s going nowhere soon. 

@soix Yeah, it was a bit of a weird chat with Robert.  He ended the conversation by saying "compare it to other cables".

I haven't tried any real expensive coaxial cables.  The dac in my Denon is pretty darn good and I mostly stream, anyway. I've tried coaxial cables by Harmonic Technology, XLO, Morrow, and probably others. CD playback through my dac was not quite as good as streaming until I bought the AZ.  It's pretty close now. 

@sls883  If you look at both the AZ and The Cable Company websites, the AZ MC2 digital coaxial cable is no longer listed. TCC just took it down today. The CC lead rep mentioned that it is a big no-no to use an S/PDIF cable with impedance incompatible with the connector.  The previous sales person thought it was just typo.