I thought it was time we had a pro- Class D thread. There's plenty of threads about comparisons, or detractors of Class D.
That's fine, you don't have to like Class D amps, and if you don't please go participate on one of those threads.
For those of us who are very happy and excited about having musical, capable amps that we can afford to keep on 24/7 and don't require large spaces to put them in, this thread is for you.
Lots of great info and feedback on the "big boys" in class D (B&O, Hypex, Pascal).
I've been using the NuPrime IDA-16, which uses proprietary modules and I'm really liking what I'm hearing. So much so that I'm pretty sure it's staying (45 day trial period).
Anyway, anybody else using class-D amps from manufactures "rolling" their own modules?
I have three Crown ITech 5000HD stereo amps (6 x 1250 watts) with incorporated active dsp crossover controlling 2 JBL M2 Master Reference Monitors and a JBL Sub18 (2500 watts bridged amp). These are called class I by Crown and are a variation of class D. Dynamic range, transient response, and headroom, are well beyond the traditional average "audiophile" system. These characteristics are, in fact, staggering when compared to my conventional Classe/B&W 801N system. No doubt, this is due in part to the extreme high wattage and active crossover of the Crown amplifiers, something not easily obtained with conventional amps. I don't sense any particular harshness with the Crowns, and, in fact, the system sounds pretty sweet, but I do constantly wonder if upper frequency refinement would improve if the Crowns were other than class I. The totally outrageous slam and bass response of the JBL/Crown system, however, is quite fun.
Jtsnead, I have been following the evolution of the Nord since the inception of them,Rollable op amps,very cool.Colin North has quite a following on audio shark forum.
The Bhk preamp looks like a good fit for me and there is several used up for sale.Thanks for the info.
Madavid,
You may want to try a warmer sounding solid state or tube preamp with your d-Sonics. Let us know the details of your current system and what kind of musical presentation or flavor that you are looking for.
I do very much so Eric , maybe it’s you that needs an bi-aural Exostosis operation.
As I said before the only one of new breed of Class-D’s that I had any time for, was the latest BelCanto 600 monoblocks to which BC from what I understood by the presenter has done their own switching noise filtering, from what is standard from NCore.
But they had to be driving a benign 6ohm load, of a top line Raven tweeter’ed two way bookshelf, to get me to like them, on the other speakers they too didn’t sound very good.
When I was trying to the latest class D experiment, Nord was on my short list. I ended up going with D-Sonic because the latest Pascal modules are supposed have technology that lowers switching noise to levels lower than previously possible and they receive universally positive reviews (so do the nCores as a matter of fact).
Another factor, I hear claims that the NC1200 is subjectively greatly superior to the lower end modules, and if that's the case it would be like robbing from myself to go with less. Unfortunately, NC1200 products are in the 10k+ range...
But here's the thing, the D-Sonics crushed my soundstage and seemed to lend themselves to listener fatigue. Do they need class A preamping or a tube stage?
Anyone looking at trying the NC500 boards should look at Nord, Kenny I am using a BHK pre with the Nord mono's and it is awesome https://www.nordacoustics.co.uk/
lalitk, I haven't used my s-500 dragon very much,I have week old speakers so I'm using my 600m's because I know their sound and they have plenty of hrs on them.
I think you would be happier with a pair of dragons with your 800 d2's.I'm not that familiar with the Ati amps,they look very good though.I think they need more pwr then one s-500 can provide.
I'm personally looking at the Ps audio 700's mono's and maybe the Bhk preamp.I will let the dust settle and see what more user impressions have to say.
Kenny, I tried this amp recently with my B&W 800D2’s. While it sounded wonderfully adequate in low end and detailed in mid’s /high’s, it didn’t quite push the 800’s the way my current amp does from ATI 544NC. In addition to being detailed, the 544NC drives the low end with such brute force that I have not felt the need to use my JL sub.
I would have been more than content with S500 if I owned the B&W 802’s. When I spoke to Ryan Tew of RDA, he recommended using a pair of S500 in bridge mode to drive my 800D2’s.
Got one more amp on my list of audition before I happily settle with my choice of class D amp. Getting closer to sit back and enjoy the music :-)
I don't have to be nice to people who are being nasty, so I'm not being nice to you anymore. You are the most transparent hater in the long list of transparent haters, and I know haters.
You previously stated you know almost nothing about Class D but now you claim to be an expert and want to bashing all the contributions of almost everyone else in
this thread. I take offense at you coming in here and deliberately
starting trouble. I trust the contributors. I value their input, and
clearly you want to ignore all of us or call us poor judges of music and
sound, which I find a personal insult to me and everyone here.
I have two questions for you:
1 - What is your income source? Are you in the audio industry or do you own a store or sell audio equipment online?
2 - Why don't you just come out, make peace with whatever point you want to make and leave us alone. You have put a tremendous amount of emotional energy contributing nothing but hatred and bashing a technology. What happened? Did a class D amp fall out of the sky and kill your dog as a child?
Sorry, but there has NOT been significant strides in class D since then -- has there? If some of the legendary names in amp design aren't good enough, what would be?
I don't think that you quite get it,
There hasn't yet been a perfect amp designed or probably will never be that satisfys everyone's ears in the Sonics that each of us individually desire.
I can fully assure you that I will always have great respect for these legendary names in amp design.
I will comment on Nelson's Amps, Over the years I have owned many of his designs starting with the 400a and several other Thresholds,Pass Aleph 30 and Aleph 2 mono's, x-150,Xa-30.8 and then building the F5 from him graciously giving to the Diy community,The last owned and recently sold was the J2.I fully enjoyed every one of them,But the class D amps that I have now Satisfy my ears with the least shortcomings of any Amp I have ever owned in my 30 yrs in this hobby.
Comparing class a amps to class d amps is like comparing apples to oranges,which one is better is always going to be highly subjective.
At the end of the day, It's all about the music and getting closer to it.
That's not a valid argument. With a new technology, why would established manufacturers be better at implementation than those who helped develop the technology?
Sorry, but there has NOT been significant strides in class D since then -- has there? If some of the legendary names in amp design aren't good enough, what would be?
I’m afraid I’m guilty of saying "Digital" vs. "linear" when I should stick to Class D instead, so my bad. :)
And yes, those quotes and tech are stale as hell. No wonder George can’t enjoy digital amps, all the stories he reads about them are a decade old and he can't trust his own ears.
I love the use of a page of 10 year old quotes about a developing technology.
Beyond that, the article may only prove that all those famous designers didn't succeed in producing a good Class D amp. Only shows that they couldn't do it - not that it can't be done. As Bruno points out, it's a different engineering knowledge and skill set that many audio designers don't have.
So, to those confused by Class D vs. Digital, to be "digital" you have to convert or have the signal as an integer to describe the waveform. Like the digits in a CD track. This is "digitization" or converting an analog signal into a series of digits.
Class D does NOT do this conversion, but the amplifier IS switched on and off. :)
It’s confusing because what happens is that the comparator keeps the switch ON or OFF more or less in proportion to the incoming signal. This is why feedback is so important and completely different in a Class D amp vs. linear. The feedback IS essentially the only way the amp has to control the output signal, however this feedback takes different shapes. The more global the feedback, the more accurate the output.
It’s a subtle but important distinction.
Here is a list of Bruno's papers, I encourage you to read them, as I am sure I made mistakes, and the guy is one of the celebrated Class D amp designers of our time.
Interesting article, full of inaccuracies. One I may have helped propagate.
Class D vs. Digital Amplification
The article claims, erroneously, that Class D amps all have an A/D converter at the front. They do not.
It is actually more of an Analog to Analog converter with a switching voltage amplifier in the middle. :) Somewhere there is an article or paper by Bruno Putzeyes chafing at the use of "Digital" to describe his amps, which I can't find right now. Worth a read if you can find it
Class D amps (ICEPower/Hypex) generally rely on feedback to control the switching, which uses a linear comparator. There's no A/D conversion in the chain, it's not needed.
Interestingly, George, the Technics Class-D amp you are looking forward to IS more of a digital
amp than most Class D in that it DOES have an A/D front end, followed
by a DSP engine to do the calibration and frequency/phase adjustments to the original signal
before feeding the amplifier section. You are really trusting the amplifier with a great deal, because it will chew the signal up and digest it before spitting it out again. This is an approach not entirely unlike Theta and Meridian have undertaken.
Just a few of the industry's heavy hitters of hi-end design give their opinion on the merits of Class-D in a round table discussion with Absolute Sounds.
Kdude - I'm only jealous that people get to hear all these amazing pieces of equipment. I'm curious, more than anything. But when I choose a piece of gear, I tend to stick with it for years. I am a content human. Messing around with my system is fun, but I certainly do not have upgrade-itis. Thank Buddha!
The Ghents replaced a crown xls 1500, which replaced a NAD integrated. Can't remember which one, unfortunately. I'll look next time I'm at its current home.
Any amp after these will probably be some kind of class d kit..
I believe Bel Canto's REF600M is based on Hypex’s NC500 OEM module and SMPS1200 power supply. They do not use the NC1200 Hypex module.
I am hoping to try the 600's in next couple of weeks. It would be interesting to see how these mono's stack against the ATI's 544NC which is using the same NC500 module in bridge mode per channel.
One idea I had long ago was to build digital amp modules for the old Theta Dreadnaught line. Theta has already introduced a D version of the Dreadnaught though, here:
NCore NC400 is a very simple to use module designed by Putseys for Do It Yourself implementations.
As far as I know, the Theta Prometheus module is a full NCore NC1200 module, not a low end NC400. Hypex NC1200 cannot be purchased by individual audio enthusiasts for DIY projects. It can be sourced only by qualified high end audio manufacturers, such as Theta, Merrill Audio, Bel Canto, Rowland, and other similar companies.
I've heard it said (by a class D proponent) that ICE sucks, but Iceedge is going to be a game-changer. Truth?
Also, it's widely claimed that class D is improved with linear power supplies -- fact or fiction?
Extremely uneducated and immature statements from somebody that has no real experience with class d for any substantial amount of time and really doesn't belong on this thread and should stay on his trash thread unless have something positive to contribute.
My hats off too Erik for starting this thread probably knowing well that we that like class d would have to put up with this crap.
Look which tread has the most interest of the 2,It's this one.
Thanks @wtf I appreciate it, I had not noticed who that thread starter was, but I could tell the attitude was that of a brawler.
Re: ICEedge There are probably already products out there with this technology we just don't know about them yet. From B&O's point of view I think the main focus is on custom power and integration into receivers, all-in-ones, etc. not really us uber-audio-geeks who want to be seduced with stories of custom capacitors with dielectrics made from the excretion of a rare Himalayan beetle. :)
Honestly doing digital right is not easy, which is why Pascal, Hypex and B&O have been so successful. I think that in the high end, manufacturers are going to have to get VERY lucky to find talent who can bring on enough experience and insight to complement it.
This is all pre-game BS though. :) Can't wait to see what the future holds.
Hello all, Each individual component of a class d amp,the pwr supply,the input module or board,and Offcourse the class d module brand,work together in a synergistic way in the end result.
It's all up to the amp designer and the implementation of mentioned components,all 3 amps that I own are slightly different.
If you look at the other classes of solid state amps,the above mentioned matters to their design as well. Class d amps have come a long way and will continue to improve as time goes by,which is true with any newer technology.
From a historical point of view, your statement has value. In olden days, let us say about 10 years ago, ICEpower modules taken by temselves produced the kind of sound, which were not particularly musical. There were in those days several examples of ultra-basic implementation of ICE that did not sound particularly attractive. THe same modules, however, used by amp designers with a modicum of amp design knowledged yielded extremely musical amplifiers.... I already mentioned the Bel Canto REF1000 Mk.2 and the Rowland M312 as examples. It is my understanding that more recent versions of ICEpower modules do not share the problems of the olde ones.
I did not know about ICEEDGE.... I'll try to find out about it.
Your statement about ICEpower benefitting from linear power supplies is, a little tunnel-visioned... In the following sense.
ICEpower modules, as much as class D modules from other makers, often integrated their own power supplies, or have companion ready-to-go SMPS for those amp implementors who want to create simpler amps at a lower cost.
Most of these modules however, can be powered by power supplies of other origins, they be linear, toroidal, SMPS, or perhaps other types. Invariably, some of these supplies are very good, and some might not be. A good designer with knowledge of power supply design is able to enhance his class D amplifier with a custom supply..... I believe that Henry Ho has long term experience using linear supplies, with all reports pointing to great results... Rowland has been using custom SMPS for the last 15 years at least with equally great results. In the end, the type of power supply does not matter, provided it is sinergistic with the module, and truly enhances the musical experience.
This an open forum, that gives opinions from both sides of the fence, just as is happening at the "Class-D =Trash" thread, nobody has the right to dictate which side everyone should listen to, last time I checked this site wasn't run by communists.
ICEPower went through several incarnations. I can attest that the AS (or ASP if powered) is superb.
ICEedge is the chipset without the amplifier. :) Just the brains. So I think that we’ll start to see a lot more product differentiation among vendors.
The normal ICEPower module is 100% complete and tight in space. There’s no place to modify anything. At best, you can put in your own input buffer stage, and you can do lots with that. Transformers, tubes ets. but the ICEedge is the place where you can go really bonkers with part selection and circuit design.
I have no personal experience with these amps and linear supplies.
I use bare ICEPower 250 ASP modules. They beat a lot of premier class A amps.
Also, you bring a lot of attitude. Not everyone on this list has mentioned uber pricey class D amps. Some were quite affordable.
If you are looking for a place to start a linear vs. class D argument I really would be happier if you took it elsewhere or started your own thread. As posted, this thread, which is one of the most popular on right now thanks to the readership as well as proponents who are participating is for people who like Class D. :)
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