Fair question, I have an integrated amp I took time selecting and I’m kinda of the mind that of 250/425 wpc isn’t enough then there’s something wrong with the speakers. The experts suggest starting with the speakers and building around them. I think its pot luck either way you go about it.
change amps or speakers
I am powering Eminent technology LFT8bs with quicksilver M60 monoblocks. No preamp - I am running a dac directly to the amps, which works because with this configuration I am using very little attenuation. Problem is it is obvious that the ETs require more current and/or wattage- the detail is there but not the punch and there are times when I am maxed out on volume at 12 0'clock and need more. Question is do I change the amps or speakers - I love the quicksilvers and put some serious $ into modifications. A well respected friend/tech highly suggested I seek out a used pair of PSB stratus golds. I have a medium sized family room and like detail neutrality but need more rhythm and dynamics. Thanks you.
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Hello majorc, Your description of your current system's shortcomings are remarkably similar to the perceived shortcomings I had with my system as formerly constituted, although I used more powerful ss amplification with my Magnepan 2.7QR planar-dynamic speakers. I believe your ET LFT8bs are also planar-dynamic type speakers that have the 2.7QRs similar strengths of having fast and detailed midrange and treble performance along with very good, palpable and natural stereo imaging qualities. But I also believe they share similar weaknesses of having restricted rated bass extension, mine are only rated down to 35 Hz, and having rather poor bass dynamics. About 5 years ago, I bought and installed an excellent solution that dramatically transformed my system by providing the solid,powerful, rhythmic, fast, detailed and smooth bass impact and dynamics, with a rated bass extension down to a flat 20 Hz, that I perceived as being absent from my speakers sound qualities. The system is the Audio Kinesis Swarm system. Here's an Absolute Sound review that provides a very accurate description of what to expect: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I'm fairly certain this system will perform equally well as a supplement to your speakers and dramatically transform the rhythm, impact and dynamics of your system. Best wishes, Tim |
I have those same amps and they have much more power than you think. If you'd like to message me, I can tell you what I've used them to drive. I've paired them with a couple of preamps and my main preamp is a Quickslilver linestage. But their wattage should not throw you; they are much more powerful than you might think. |
@majorc By chance are you in Sac? Familiar combo here locally. I’ve heard the LFT8bs on the larger 100w QS Mono 120s, and the smaller LFT16s on amps as low as 10w. In either case, neither were super loud but sure are musical. Neat speakers. It depends on how loud you want to play them, and those speakers can be tricky if they are not placed out from the wall, very room sensitive. The older 2014 review by AS indicated they preferred the 8bs with at least 100wpc. https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/eminent-technology-lft-8b-loudspeaker/?page=4 However, I’m also wondering if your DAC direct to the Mono 60s is not giving you sufficient output voltage/gain to drive the Mono 60s properly. I’ve tried a former DAC direct to my own QS amps and it did not drive them properly. Do you have access to someone you could borrow an active preamp from to test it out before bailing on speakers or amps? |
The LFT-8b is a pretty-stable 8 ohm load. The LFT m/t panel itself is an almost purely resistive 11 ohms, so good with tubes. If you bi-amp---with any old solid state amp for the woofers (180Hz down) and your excellent Quicksilver amp for the panels, you may find happiness. If you like the LFT-8b panel a lot (I do), look into the OB/Dipole Sub offered by GR Research in collaboration with Rythmik Audio. Unlike any other sub on the market, the OB/Dipole plays up to 300Hz, and can be used in place of the LFT-8's woofer. Imagine dipole operation from below 20Hz to over 20kHz! Details on both the GR Research and Rythmik Audio websites, discussions about the sub on the GR Research section of the AudioCircle Forum. |
Thank you. I did speak with Mike at Quicksilver and he thought the amps were sufficient to drive the speakers so long as my room was not to big and I don't play too loud; he also recommended possibly trying a preamp. But I did use a preamp (sonic frontiers anthem pre1P) and it sounded better going direct without the preamp - much more detail - as though a blanket was taken off the speakers. But the tradeoff is now I have detail but no weight or dynamics - the sound is a bit thin - and I do need a bit more volume. My budget is 3,000 give or take - if I had to choose 1 to replace it would probably be the speakers - I love the amps. And I tried replacing the amps with an Eagle 2c prime which was recommended to drive the ETs, and it gave me a bit more volume but did not in any way compare to the sweetness of the quicksilvers. I understand the moscode 600 is recommended to drive ETs- not sure how that compares to the Quicksilvers sound quality wise. |
Do you have the older 60 watt Quicksilvers? Or the new ones? M60 Mono Amplifier
http://quicksilveraudio.com/products/sixty-watt-mono-amp/ |
kenjit is right for a refreshing moment. I’m surprised if you get 90 dB in room with those 83 dB sensitive transducers. Try some Ice power OR get some >90 speakers with the QS. What we have here is "A Failure To Communicate" Even this sez you need => 92 dB with the 60's: http://www.kaplanhtdesign.com/QuicksilverAudio_Sixty_Watt_mono.html |
These would probably kick those ET's. https://orchardaudio.com/bosc I agree you should demo a preamp first. |
Those speakers are for 'midrange lovers' Without a doubt, I suggest you try new and more efficient speakers with a tighter measured frequency balance. this from their web site I find funny: " The speaker is moderately efficient and its impedance averages 8 ohms." they are very low sensitivity, 83db/1w/1m. you need 4x power to 'get to' equal of a 90db efficiency speaker. That's why you need max volume on your amps, and still not enough. "frequency balance +/- 4db (in a typical room)". that is adding bass reinforcement of a 'typical' room, and still -4db. highs fall off -6db (+ 3db needs twice the power. another +3db needs twice the power again, so that is a LOT of diminished sound. highs 'smoothly' fall off to -12db at 20khz. 12 year olds with wonderful ears couldn't hear those diminished highs, certainly not my 72 year old ears. |
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@majorc Did not realize you had older Mono 60s with EL34s. Great tube, less drive. +1 on earlier KT88 suggestion. Genelex Gold Lyon KT88s, a good tube preamp, and good OCC interconnects could give you more drive and transparency you are looking for. Or, if you go to different speakers, what color stain are they and how old are the LFT8s? PM me if you plan to sell them. May know of a buyer :) |
Thank you for your input. Before I make a decision to purchase the KT88s for use with the ETs, does anyone any thoughts regarding how a newer speaker such as Fritz or Salk would compare to the ETs? (my room is 20X14) And does anyone have any experience with the PSB stratus golds and would they be a good fit for the quicksilvers - they are rated 88db/4ohms. Have a great weekend. |
Hi majorc, In an earlier post you mentioned the Goldmund Dialogue speakers that impressed with their sound quality. These are 96 db sensitivity and reputed to have a fairly easily driven speaker load. Are these speakers available to you used? Your QS amplifiers would coast driving these speakers. In your price range take a look at the Tekton Audio Perfect SET speakers. Very efficient and easy to drive. Another option is the Canadian Coherent Audio speakers made in Toronto. Charles |
@majorc By chance have you heard your LFT8 speakers in an audio store with quality tube amp or monos at 100wpc+? (or solid state amp) I’ve heard them locally with 100pc tube amps (QS Mono 120s with KT150s) in fact, and they are wonderful sounding speakers; even compared to $5k 2-way Audio Note speakers along the same lines as the Salk/Fritz. Your LFT8s can give off a sound a smaller box speaker cannot replicate in the same way. Don’t mean to push, but those are nice speakers with the right preamp/amp combination. Can sound wonderful given a chance, I’ve heard them at least 20+ times and enjoyed them every time with the right pre/amp, and particularly when fed with a really good Audio Note DAC and Audio Note preamp, wow. Can be amazing. Keep them if you can! +1 charles1dad, what he said. With the lower power and older version EL34 based QS monos, many go for a more efficient speaker, several collegues in my areas with those amps, and many settled on speakers 92-100db sensitivity. With the newer QS Monos with KT88s, I’ve heard them with mid efficiency speakers 88-92db sensitivity, and they can do pretty well but with a good active (non-passive) preamp with some gain helps too. btw, I've heard the Sonic Frontiers preamp you have and tried, it was a little bit more laid back...a buddy of mine had one for 3 years, and he ended up parting with it for an Audible Illusions Modulus III that drove his RM EL34 tube amp a lot better for his less efficient 88db Totem speakers, Similar scenario as yours. Sorta know what you are referring to. @hilde45 can tell you all about the Salk and Fritz after having completed an exhaustive review using the latest (larger transformer) QS Mono 60s, an offline discussion with him might help there too. |
Actually I have never heard them at their best - I purchased them upon the recommendation of a tech - a local guy that works out of his house and would come to my home. Issue is I put some serious $ with that tech into modding the quicksilvers - and it was a huge improvement - if I change amps I will never recoup that. As I stated earlier when we recognized the mismatch he recommended an Eagle 2Cprime amp - I tried it and it gave my slightly more volume/dynamics but the magic/liquidity was not there like with the quickslivers. One option is to swap the tubes for KT88s and then if that does not do it add a preamp, but I always understood that it is important to get the speaker amp match right and then add a preamp if necessary. Any recommendations for a preamp would be welcome, and I know Mike Sanders will send me the quicksilver preamp to audition. I have one source - a computer. |
The Gold Stratus won’t do. Low sensitivity and 4 ohm nominal which drops below in the midbass requires power and high current. https://www.stereophile.com/content/psb-stratus-gold-loudspeaker-1997-measurements |
@majorc I’d get a good matching tube preamp no matter what. Tons of threads on this topic alone. If you do order a Linestage preamp from Mike at QS, heads up, for $50 upgrade service fee, he can convert the TapeOut to a 2nd set of PreOuts if yourdecide to bi-amp as others suggested earlier. Or, use the added pre-outs to add a really good subwoofer for added bottom end your mono 60s won’t have to make up for. A nice sub could fill in bottom end and let your LFT8s flow with KT88s in the Mono 60s. Add good tubes in Linestage preamp from Mike@QS. Local Tech Option: You mentioned a local tech. Yes, a good local tech can also upgrade coupling caps in those amps to much better ones to add transparency you are looking for, along with checking tubes, re-bias. I upgraded my own QS Mono 120s with Mundorf Supreme EVO Silver-Gold caps, and the upgrade has been very rewarding. Yes, see your tech! Option-C: Check this out. If you keep the LFT8 speakers, you could do the preamp now, add KT88s, run for 1-2 years. Then,wait for KT170 based amps to come out next! Yes, did not mis-spell. New tube coming from Tung Sol would be perfect for your LFT8s. :) Guarantee you’d love those LFT8s all over again with a bit more drive. https://www.instagram.com/p/CG77jvZJEoH/?igshid=xj8re0i2fhl2 |
@yogiboy Do you have the older 60 watt Quicksilvers? Or the new ones?+1 @yogiboy Agree. This is an important question for @majorc to answer to first. @majorc FYI, my local dealer who’s carried Quicksilver amps and Eminent Technology speakers since the 90s shared to pass along to you today, quote: "the older mono sixties with smaller transformers running EL34 output tubes are power limited to effectively drive and power the lower efficiency 82db sensitivity EMT LFT8b speakers." He’s tried several amps with your speakers over the past few decades. He also shared, The "latest design QS Mono 60s with the LARGER transformers and KT88s -OR- the QS Mono 120s with KT150 tubes -OR- a good 100wpc solid state amplifier would be a much better choice to drive your LFT8b speakers". He also shared a good matching preamplifier for a proper amp(s) is highly recommended. Hope this helps... |
@ majorc I have a pair of quicksilver amps, the silver sixty's, I use them to drive my 4425 monitors. And they sound fantastic. They are very dynamic amps. You have a great pair of amps. Amp and speakers should match. The 4425 monitors are 8 Ohm and their efficiency is 0.8%. They have great detail, they are neutral and very dynamic. You can play them at 65dB or 105dB and their composure does not change. With the 4425 20 watts is all you need. Also, your quicksilver amps have a gain of 25dB and need a preamp of at least 14dB of gain to drive the amps to their full sixty watt output. IMHO: I would try a preamp first, and if you do not like the sound look for different speakers. If you change your speakers make sure they are 8 Ohms or higher as that will make the quicksilvers very happy. I hope this helps. |
@ditusa Your super cool el34 quad-output-tube Silver 60 amps (with larger V4 amp transformers) are close to 2x the drive compared to the older and smaller dual-output-tube EL34 monos. Now your amps would definitely drive @majorc ’s LFT8b speakers. I’ve actually heard that combo together before at a local dealer. Was there to buy those amps on trade-in, and they sold too fast. Very nice. Lucky You :) |
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@majorc
I could be wrong but I think that pre-amp (sonic frontiers anthem pre1P) is a phono stage pre-amp but I think you need a line stage pre-amp which is why it didnt sound right... |
Thank you. Looks like I will need an active preamp no matter what avenue I decide to take so I will try that. Any suggestions? I can start with the quicksilver line stage - others I see on the gon that are highly touted is Don Sachs and Backert. I wish I didn't put so much money into modding my quicksilvers - if I didn't I would just sell them and replace with the newer model. |
@majorc IF you decided to sell them, your current el34 based Monos would make a nice setup for someone within the higher-efficiency speaker crowd, kind of desirable amps on the used market. Could recoup some funds there. And of course, the other option is to keep them and buy much higher sensitivity speakers, you know that already. Since you’ve not bought a preamp yet... One other option might be to part with the monos and purchase a really nice higher power integrated tube amp to more effectively drive your EMT LFT8b speakers. |
I'm back - was going to go the preamp route but I spoke with Mike at QS and he said the older M60s are a complete no go with the ETs - they are way to inefficient. He said doesn't matter whether the speakers are 8 or 4 ohms with the M60s, but to look for speakers with 90db or greater sensitivity - Mike suggested a pair of older JBLs. Any recommendations would be welcome - some that were previously expressed in this thread were the tekton and JBL 4425s. |
I run a pair of Martin-Logans ESLs with Quicksilver Mini-Monos. I was surprised that the M-Ls played loud and were easy to drive. I played that system for years and the amps are still in use. Not sure what happens if you drive the amps really hard all the time but I get all the volume I need with just 25 watts and the amps held up fine. The system was quite good. . |
@majorc Yeah, kinda wondered if he'd say that, and he's a Klipsch horn speaker guy according to local dealers here. I've only heard your same taller EMT LFT8Bs with the later model Quicksilver mono amps with the larger transformers and knurled speaker terminals. Sounded quite nice. Also heard the smaller version EMT LFT16a 85db speaker many times paired with a low 8 watt limited production Audio Note Meishu integrated tube amp and it was impressive. 16As were amazing with the new QS Mono 120s, and could tell the EMTs like power. Matching well is key for sure. fwiw, both pairs on all amps were run with very low capacitance RCA silver interconnects and low capacitance silver plated speaker cables. All combos had plenty of volume in a 20'x40' foot room too. |