You can walk in any dealer and make just about any fair reasonable offer and he'll take it. The Inet is killing the dealers. Just make your final offer and walk. He'll be calling. |
Oscar, buy from him at 5% off and be glad he helped you find what you are after. If it's not what you want, then don't agonize and move on.
You decide what is a good deal for you. That said, the above is my take.
Above all, enjoy. |
Without knowing more, unless the set up takes substantial time, I would say that the answer is no. You should be able to do better. |
OK, this is late but I auditioned a pair of speakers in a dealer's house (he works from home). These were in his listening room and are his demo/personal use pair which he is not selling. He does not keep a lot of stock other than what he displays and demos (two listening rooms, one TV room) in his house. He quoted me MSRP plus tax for a pair of speakers. I auditioned there for a couple of hours by appointment. When I asked if he could do better on price he offered a 5% discount if I paid up front when he ordered them from the manufacturer. He would cover delivery and set-up in my home. Fair or no? Does it matter if these are $5k or $20k speakers? |
I don't know where people are getting their information, but B&W is 40-45 at best depending on speaker. I have sold them. I agree with some in saying that discounting is great...online, but don't waste my time then buy it on line or expect me to service your piece once you have a problem. Most of us speciality retailers will no longer service anything unless bought at the store. Part of what you are paying for is a nice venue to hear the speakers, people to explain and educate you on the speakers and service after the sale. If none of the above is important then the internet in the place for you. |
Northwoods_maine,
EXTREMELY well said, especially the concept of VALUE. |
Fiddler - as a sales manager for a manufacturer (not A/V related products), I also need to have a working knowledge of the legal aspects of pricing and agree with you completely. It's all about the "S" in M.S.R.P. - Manufacturer's SUGGESTED retail price. You can infer and suggest but can not demand that your distributors OR retailers use any specific price. From a legal standpoint, they're free to sell for whatever price they choose.
Also, there are numerous mentions of various business terms in this thread (and others) that seem to be taken as being synonymous that aren't. When people talk about "markups", "gross profit", "gross profit margins", etc., they need to understand what each of those terms mean and not use them randomly and arbitrarily.
Cost $100.00 sell for $150.00 = 50% markup
Cost $100.00 sell for $200.00 = 50% gross profit margin
Cost $100.00 sell for $200.00 = $100.00 gross profit dollars
Don't mean to "give a lesson" but way too many people use these terms without actually knowing what they represent.
Those who think that a 50% markup (33% gross profit) is "way too much" for a traditional bricks and mortar retailer to achieve aren't being realistic about what the actual costs of running a small business are. Most traditional small business owners that I've known would (at best) barely break even at a 50% markup.
As a consumer, I also want to get the "best deal" I can for my hard earned dollars ... but that doesn't always mean the "best price". As consumers we need to look for what we consider to be the "best value". Sometimes that is the "best price", other times the purchasing experience, the seller's product knowledge, warranty and service after the sale are what create the "best value". It's up to you to decide what comprises the "best value" for you. |
Bignerd,
Hey, don't be cursing me like that. Ain't no lawyer and couldn't be one. Have too many ethics! :-)
But as a business owner it pays to know what the law is when it pertains my business. |
Wow! You do sound just like a real live lawyer (no offense to any real live lawyers on this thread). Hope pre-law exams are going well. Study, study, study!
:) |
Mdhoover,
The answers to your questions are available online. I've wasted enough time on this already. |
Fiddler,
1) Given the large number of legal precedents, why is this not common knowlege?
2) Why is it that enforcement of this law (or statute, or rule, or regulation or order, or whatever it's called) is seemingly done on a complaint-driven basis?
3) Why are some of the compliance orders issued by the FTC given a five year time limit?
4) In the Chrysler case:
-----a) Was the dealer association the target of a complaint by Chrysler because of the threatened boycott, or were the dealers the plaintiffs?
-----b) What were the terms of that settlement?
-----c) Did Chrysler have to change its vehicle allocation restrictions or not? |
No_money, let me know if you need more.
------------------------------
I. FEDERAL CASES
Nintendo of America Inc., 114 F.T.C. 702 (1991) (consent order).
The Commission prohibited Nintendo, for five years, from terminating
dealers on the basis of the resale price they charge. Although I was not at
the Commission when it considered the Nintendo matter, I do not think it
is merely a coincidence that the complaint also alleged that Nintendo
accounted for more than 80% of all home video game equipment sales.
The presence of market power makes vertical restraints far more suspect
because of the potential for even nonprice restraints to have
anticompetitive effects. Nintendo-like relief also may be appropriate in
egregious situations where a manufacturer demonstrates a willful
disregard of the law on per se vertical price restraints – for example, if a
manufacturer continues to engage in unlawful RPM after repeated
enforcement warnings.
Kreepy Krauly, 114 F.T.C. 777 (1991) (consent order).
The Commission alleged that a Florida manufacturer of swimming pool
cleaning equipment entered into written agreements with dealers to
maintain resale prices. Kreepy Krauly settled with Commission and
agreed to rescind the paragraph of its dealer agreements that required
dealers to agree to maintain resale prices, and to cease including that
paragraph in dealer agreements. The consent order also prohibited Kreepy
Krauly from entering into agreements with dealers to maintain resale
prices.
United States v. California SunCare, Inc., 1994-2 Trade Cas. (CCH) ¶ 70,843
(C.D. Cal. 1994) (final judgment).
DOJ brought charges against California SunCare, an indoor tanning
products manufacturer, alleging that, from November 1992 through April
1994, the defendant entered into agreements with certain dealers to fix and
maintain the resale prices of its products. California SunCare settled with
DOJ and agreed to refrain from price-fixing, announcing a pricing policy,
or threatening to terminate or actually terminating for non-compliance
with suggested retail prices for a period of five years.
Keds Corporation, 117 F.T.C. 389 (1994) (consent order).
The Commission settled charges that Keds Corporation allegedly had
agreed with some dealers to maintain resale prices on certain types of
athletic and casual shoes, solicited commitments from dealers regarding
pricing, and encouraged dealers to report noncomplying dealers. The
consent order required Keds to refrain from: fixing the prices at which any
dealer may advertise or sell the product; coercing any dealer to adopt or
adhere to any resale price; attempting to secure commitments from dealers about the prices at which they would advertise or sell the products; or
requiring or even suggesting that dealers report other dealers who
advertise or sell any Keds products below a suggested resale price. The
order also required Keds to inform its dealers that they were free to
advertise and sell Keds products at prices of their own choosing. For five
years, the order required Keds to incorporate a similar statement in any
materials sent to dealers suggesting resale prices.
Reebok International, 120 F.T.C. 20 (1995) (consent order).
The FTC alleged that Reebok and Rockport fixed the resale prices of their
products. The settlement prohibited both companies from fixing the
prices at which dealers advertised or sold athletic or casual footwear
products to consumers. The settlement also prohibited the companies from
coercing or pressuring any dealer to maintain or adopt any resale price, or
from attempting to secure their commitment to any resale price. The order
required Reebok and Rockport to inform their dealers in writing that
dealers were free to advertise and sell Reebok and Rockport products at
any price they chose, despite any suggested retail price established by the
companies.
United States v. Playmobil USA, Inc., 1995-1 Trade Cas. (CCH) ¶ 71,000
(D.D.C. 1995) (final judgment).
Playmobil USA had maintained a Retailer Discount Policy that provided
for the termination of any Playmobil dealer that failed to adhere to certain
Playmobil suggested price ranges. In January 1995, DOJ filed a civil suit
that alleged that Playmobil enforced this policy in a manner that violated
the antitrust laws by reaching agreements with some of its retailers about
what their retail prices would be. DOJ and Playmobil entered a settlement decree prohibiting Playmobil from reaching agreements with its dealers
on retail price levels, and also from threatening dealers with termination
for discounting off the retail price.
Onkyo U.S.A. Corporation, 1995-2 Trade Cas. (CCH) ¶ 71,111 (D.D.C. 1995)
(final judgment).
Onkyo U.S.A. Corporation, a manufacturer of audio components, agreed
to settle FTC charges that it violated a 1982 FTC order under which it
agreed not to fix prices or engage in unlawful resale price maintenance.
The complaint alleged that Onkyo sales representatives violated the terms
of the order by: agreeing with a dealer to establish resale prices for the
Onkyo products the dealer outlets sold to consumers; requesting that the
dealer adhere to specified resale prices or price levels, informing the
dealer that its prices were too low; directing the dealer to raise those
prices, asking retailers to report other dealers who deviated from Onkyo's
pricing policy; and responding to such deviations with threats and
intimidation. Under the settlement, Onkyo paid $225,000 in civil
penalties for violation of the original order.
New Balance Athletic Shoe, Inc., 122 F.T.C. 137 (1996) (consent order).
The Commission charged that New Balance entered into RPM agreements
with some of its retailers, in which such dealers agreed to raise retail
prices on New BalanceÂ’s products, maintain certain prices or price levels set by New Balance, or refrain from discounting New BalanceÂ’s products
for a certain period of time. New Balance induced dealers to enter into
these agreements by monitoring retailer prices, threatening to terminate or
suspend shipments to discounting retailers, and demanding that retailers
raise their prices. New Balance also assured retailers that New Balance
would secure similar price agreements from other competing retailers or
otherwise prevent unapproved discounting of New Balance athletic shoes.
The settlement prohibited New Balance from fixing or controlling the
prices at which retailers could sell the companyÂ’s athletic footwear.
American Cyanamid Corp., 123 F.T.C. 1257 (1997) (consent order).
The Commission alleged that, between 1989 and 1995, American
Cyanamid entered into written agreements with its retail dealers under its
rebate programs, pursuant to which American Cyanamid offered to pay its
dealers substantial rebates on each sale of its crop protection chemicals
that was made at or above specified minimum resale prices. This
conditioning of financial payments on dealers' charging a specified
minimum price amounted to an agreement on resale prices. The consent
decree enjoined the defendant from seeking agreements by retailers to fix
prices.
Fair Allocation System, Inc., 126 F.T.C. 626 (1998) (consent order).
An association of auto dealers settled charges that it threatened to boycott
Chrysler if the manufacturer did not agree to change its vehicle allocation
system to restrict vehicle supply to discounters engaged in Internet sales.
Nine West Group, Inc., 65 Fed. Reg. 13386 (March 13, 2000) (proposed consent agreement).
The Commission ordered a manufacturer of womenÂ’s shoes to cease
seeking agreements by retailers to fix, raise or stabilize shoe prices to
consumers.
|
Fiddler, maybe you could give us a link? |
Csmithbarc,
Geez, you guys are hard-headead. Please spend a little time doing research other than reading a simple definition from an online dictionary. There is tons of case law describing exactly what were are talking about here.
What ML is doing is price fixing by Federal Law if they are requiring dealers to sell their product at a certain price. It has nothing to do with any other speaker manufacturer's price. And some of you are confusing "vertical" price fixing with "horizontal" price fixing.
I could care less what ML prices their speakers at because I have no interest in purchasing their speakers. And the government could care less about ML's pricing also until someone starts screaming about it. As long as dealers or consumers aren't complaining long and hard about ML's pricing, the government has much bigger fish to fry.
But the fact remains, several of you here need to do some homework and stop spewing incorrect information until you have done some research. |
If I understood your explanation, then we could surmise that gasoline prices at present are the result of industry price fixing whereas the cable TV situation is the result of nothing more than a monopoly having its way. And if these things are illegal, where is the government? |
This is not price fixing. "Price fixing is an informal agreement between direct business competitors selling the same product regarding that product's pricing". A method of "price fixing" is for direct competitors to agree to set minimum price contracts from supplier to dealer for similar products. As such dealers such as ML can set minimum price limits for their products and it is not "price fixing". It WOULD be "price fixing" if ML and other companies with similar products got together and had an agreement to set a minimum price level for their similar products. |
No_Money and Herman, you guys simply don't know what you are talking about.
Superhonestben is EXACTLY right!
The Sherman Act first addressed price fixing in 1890 and many cases have been adjudicated since. Case law is very clear and explicit. Do ten minutes of research and you will see how wrong you are.
ML or any other manufacturer CANNOT tell a retailer what they can sell their product for. It is illegal period!
What they can do is give the retailer a "suggested" retail price. If the retailer does not comply with the "suggested" price, then ML can choose to terminate the retailer.
As a PRACTICAL matter however, ML can get away with setting a retail price to dealers as long as dealers are willing to put up with the price-fixing. But that doesn't mean it's legal. |
You are mixed up. The manufacturer has the right to pull the line from any dealer who breaks the rules of the ML dealer contract. The rules can include discounting. Dealers can choose to bend this rules (and discount) and in most cases the manufacuter will look the other way as long as no other dealers are complaining. This is common practice in all segments of retail. |
has anyone paid list price for a speaker nad considered it money well spent or a fair price ??
there may be a few speakers which are priced fairly where paying list price is not a problem.
i'm think of one which i may buy and i am having difficulty getting a discount. it's the magnepan 1.6 . |
Lets take off the pretend-law-expert hat and put on our propeller hat instead. We are audiofools afterall.
Happy scrounging.
:) |
Fiddler, They are not colluding with other manufacturers to fix prices; they are establishing what their dealers can charge. Two completely different things. If they want to be a dealer for that product they agree not to discount. A very common practice in many high end products, not just audio. And yes, if I did buy retail I would want a discount. |
No Manufacturer can tell a dealer what to sell the product for ...period...if they do they are breaking the law, in fact I do believe it was the hifi bus that made this so, I think both B&0 and Pioneer were charged with this in the 70s....anyway If a ML dealer says he "cant discount" because the manufacturer said so...is in stric violationof the law....sure you can ask for a discount and you will probably get one...the more you buy from a store, probably the more they will take care of you on both price and service....BUT they need to make a profit to stay in business and 10-20 percent over cost doesn't cut it...my guess is on any speaker line you can get 10-15% off and everybody is happy |
It is not price fixing. They are not controlling what ALL speakers sell for, just thiers. It is called protecting your products value and protecting dealers in your network. If you want to be a ML dealer you are limited to the amount of discount you can give period. Lots of other brands do this as well, if it was illegal they would have been busted long ago. |
Bignerd100,
It is not semantics. Price-fixing is illegal anyway you cut it. Do a little research.
And BTW, Federal Law says marijuana is illegal, period. |
Fiddler,
Well, technically marijuana is not illegal. You simply have to have the appropriate stamp from the government in order to posses it legally. THe thing is that there are no such stamps in existance therefore... marijuana is illegal.
Semantics.
Some manufacturers protect the dealers that Smer319 speaks of. These dealers do have to turn a profit to stay in business. They are also protecting their products "good name" if you will by discouraging discounting. |
Discounting is a disease. I dont know where you guys get the idea that there is 50% mark up.
All you guys need to go to accounting school if you seriously believe in this crap.
A typical senerio.
A store in Los Angeles Ca.
3000 sq ft. rent 5000.00
Electrical & other expences 1000.00
Salary to a sales person 3500.00
Misc expences & bank payments 1500.00
Insurances & other expences 5000.00 { accountant, Computer lease, Software payments, Corporate taxes, Theft insurance, & many others }
10,000.00 is spent before making a penny.
If the person sells 100,000.00 in audio he makes 32% in gross profit.
32000.00
His expences are 15,000.
Store owners salary is 5000
the rest is invested in purchasing newer product.
He makes 7000.00if he's lucky & had a perfect month.....
We have not added gas expences & return freight charges on equipment that has to go back because it failed or you guys brought back...
Do you guys still want discounts or are you going to pay full price ? |
Bignerd100,
ML can't tell a retailer how much to sell their product for. It's called price-fixing.
What they can do is not allow a particular retailer to sell their product at all. But to tell a retailer how much they have to sell their product for is against the law! |
And don't forget direct importers. AV 123 sells what I personally feel is the best deal in the audio universe, the Onix SP-3. |
There are a number of them, Ubglub. On the speaker front: Tyler Acoustics, Ohm, Decware, Zu Audio, and I'm sure others still. As far as other components are concerned, there are MANY companies who offer a trial period, some with (and some without) a restocking fee. Decware, Wright Sound, Portal, Channel Islands, and so on. Most of the cable companies offer a trial period of 15-45 days. In addition, there are often dealers who themselves offer trial periods with no restocking fees. |
In response to Macrojack, could people chime in with their knowledge of which manufacturers offer direct home trial? So far, I'm only aware of Soundlabs and CAT. In each case, freight is the responsibility of the customer of course. I believe CAT also asks a 4% restocking charge in the event of return. I'm sure there are others I don't know about. |
Forget markup, forget profit margin. Just ask yourself this
"Do these speakers give me the best possible sound for the money ?
Am I prepared to spend this much on a pair of speakers ?"
If you answer yes to both then buy them. If no to either then don't buy them.
In summary buy the best speakers you hear within a budget that is acceptable to you.
In all lines of business you can ask for a discount and the retailer or manufacturer can offer a discount. There's no point getting upset if the offered discount isn't what you expect. Just walk away and explore other avenues. |
It was difficult to wade through all of what has been said, but there are different philosophies that store owners employ. They do on average getabout 40% mark up on High end speakers take from that the operating which is extremely variable depending on the size of the store their inventory debt etc. and they obviously don't have a lot of room to move. That said if you can manage to find a small operation that carries or can order them for you it's still a considerable chunk of change approx 5000 bucks I am sure that a quick $2000 profit would work, they can manage with that.
In response to the general retail question of course if your selling $20 shirts you only make $10. You can't pay the rent with $3. The store can either hope to keep volumes high enough and importantly customer loyalty so you keep going back to the guy who will give you the dscount or try and make a single killing on those who don't care. |
There are, I think certain rules to follow in dealing with dealers.
1) No requests for dems if you have no intention of buying from the shop. A dealer friend says that there is a special place in hell for guys spending hours deming an item, then driving 50miles to a discount store to save 5 bucks.
2) A dem does'nt mean you will buy, you may want to look elsewhere too, but you should have the intention of buying at a retail price, at some point.
3) If you make a decision, bargaining over a discount is fair, if your expectation is fair. If you have taken 30 minutes of his time, it may be more than a 3 hour trawl through different gear. He has to make a living, but your cash did'nt grow on trees, its what is known as a free market.
4) Be open about what you are after, he can't advise if he does'nt know. Many dealers I know are frustrated by guys bringing in a HiFi mag demanding product X, not interested or suspicious of advise. assume these guys know a bit about HiFi and have your interests at heart. A happy customer will come back. If in doubt about this or you feel pressured to a product or price that is not for you, walk away.
Following these rules is a problem for me. most of my gear is 2nd user, so I don't feel I can seek dealer dems, I feel you must follow the rule to be fair. Unless you have a relationship with a dealer and are upfront about the reason for the dem, he may accomodate you to build up a relationship with you.
This seems common sense to me |
I sold audio in a retail setting from 1975 til 1988 and sporadically after that. In those days, hi-end stores were able to subsidize the cost of maintaining a high dollar inventory by selling large volumes of mid-fi stuff. We didn't have cables but most stores pushed some higher margin line of speakers as a loss leader and cheap phono cartridges had as much as 90 points in them. We used the term points to indicate what percentage of the total ticket was profit. A 40 point line cost the dealer 60% of list price. As a salesman, I was a sharecropper. I would work the floor typically maintaining a 31 to 35 per cent aggragate profit, of which I was paid 17 to 20 per cent. What this means is that I got between 5 and 7% of my total sales volume. This represented a significant piece of dealer overhead. Shipping, advertising, insurance, FICA, high rent, large floor space, yellow pages, utilities, etc. all added up. But the dealer could do it.........until the Best Buys and Circuit Cities took away the mainstream. As someone else stated, the higher end product did not offer the margins that were growing on the mid fi stuff. Also factor in that the mid fi customer was less savvy and more apt to pay list price and be otherwise duped. It left the high end store with the option of moving to HT or trying to hang on with infrequent high end sales. Today high end audio stores can only survive in areas of high population density and places like where I live are virtually unrepresented. That's a primary reason why I use Audiogon. We all know that the initial purchaser eats the depreciation and fortunately for me there are plenty of you willing to do that.
The higher the price of something, the fewer the potential customers. High end audio very nearly priced itself out of existence. Today there is a new and promising movement in high end. Factory direct marketing is showing signs of success. Srajan of 6moons.com seems to deliberately ferret out products like this for review. Typically there is an in-home trial period where you get to make up your mind slowly utilizing your own system and room over a predetermined period of time. What could be better? If you decide against the purchase, you will be out round trip freight but that can be considered rent on a brand new product which you return with no depreciation or insurance against buying something that you will later have to lose money on at resale. There aren't any villians in the picture. All parties are just trying to make their way. Remember that these are luxuries and, despite the half serious melodrama often expressed, not necessities like the exploitively priced fuels we all consume daily. If you want to be pissed off about pricing, I suggest that you direct your attention toward energy and medical extortion. Those are essentials. Audio consumption remains voluntary. |
I've known a number of high-end dealers, none of which I would ever trust anywhere near 100%, to select the right component for me. But I've never met some of the hard working, knowlegeable and experienced, intelligent honest and helpful, high-end dealers/businessmen, who are sucessful in such markets as NYC and LA. If anyone here knows of such a dealer I would appreciate contact info. It would also help if he/she customarily gave significant discounts.
I've done repeat business with Kevin Deal; he comes closer than most. It's also very hard to ignore those 3-4 full page ads in every issue, each ad replete with numerous examples of Kevin's twisted sense of humor. |
What about the notion of VALUE???? If one has a knowlegable dealer (as I've had--two actually), it can save a person time AND money by not having to first purchase, then empirically test a list of products in the quest of meeting one's own sonic criteria. Initial purchase price becomes less of an issue if long term satisfaction (and thus less component turnover) occurs. Also, the HASSLE FACTOR goes way down.
This is not to suggest that one should have blind faith, either. The above points apply ONLY if the dealer is:
1)totally honest, both with respect to pricing and with respect to sharing their blunt opinion (good or bad, and in detail) about products; 2)smart, experienced, knowlegable and familiar with your personal sonic tastes, and 3)is selling items which have a great price to performance ratio. |
wow NERD too bad I am done with my purchase from them, I almost would have lost sleep over it. |
You are not donig your dealer any favors Chadnliz.
ML keeps an eye on these forums.
ML has a fairly strict "NO DISCOUNT" policy.
Dealers (yours included I'm sure) are some of the only people who have the time and inclination to spend all day on A-gon.
Don't be surprised if your dealer suddenly gets conservative with discounts.
Don't be surprised if ML gives him a spanking too.
Ata way to post yourself out of a good thing. |
I bought BW speakers, Rotel amps and Processors, wires on 4 seperate occasions and always got 20% off MSRP everytime.
Matter of fact I think I got the wires at 50% but thet were not really high end stuff. I did get a quote for a cinema center that I was going to add to my Innersound Eros and again it was flat 20% off MSRP. |
Chadlnliz: Hmmm. Hearing about Audio Visions in Ohio selling ML for 20% off makes me wonder about my local dealers. Sorry to ask, but are you 100% sure about your information? Are buyers at Audio Visions giving something up in return for the discount? |
OK here ya go,
If you ask no more than 5 questions ask for 20%
If he turns lights off around you and walks you out as he locks the door then dont get too greedy
If you slap your cash down or credit card and simply order your gear with no more then a pleasant
"Hello.....nice weather ehhhh?" then ask for 30%
(I mean you didnt use him for any knowledge riiiiight?)
and try not to feel too bad for dealers that dont make as much as they did some time ago......they made too much!
|
Douglikesaudio
Thanks again, your points are understood and well taken.cj |
A good dealer is very important/and a good customer from a dealers perspective is equally as important. This hobby goes both ways. The internet has changed the whole marketplace of audio(and everthing else) With these changes dealers as well as manufacturers need to change their marketing strategies. The internet has increased the competition. This is great for the audio consumer. This is nothing we should apologize for. Finding the best price we can,and still expecting support(from the store and the manufacturer)is something that should be strived for and expected by an audio consumer. I think a large part of the problem lies in the lap of the manufacturer. Their prices are ridiculously inflated. Thats the part thats squeezing the audio shops. The vast majority of high end gear you would be lucky to get 50% of retail 6 months after its sold. This is gear in pristine condition. If this is the case-was it really worth what it originally retailed for? |
anything less then 20% off is an insult! AudioVisions in Ohio sells Martin Logan and will atleast offer 20% off. |
CJ, sorry if the litmus test seemed directed at you. I offer it as a counter to some of the posts above from other responders. Also, you made it clear in your post that you are new to the hobby and trying to figure out how to proceed. I don't like sounding high and mighty here, but there are so many views in the above threads that counter my own experience that I thought it best to offer another side.
In short, to some responders above a key component of "value" is the price they pay relative to MSRP. I suggest that you don't get hung up on that definition of value at such an early stage in this hobby. What I have found is that a really good dealer is worth alot more than they usually charge. Their charge being the difference between what I could pay from the lowest price alternative vs in their store.
Let me give you an example. My local 2channel shop has been in business nearly 40 years and is the last 2channel shop in our metro area. I went in last year to see if he had a Sony SACD player as I was hot to get one. He didn't have one but he acquainted himeself with me and my goals and said I may be interested in another product he carried. I borrowed the piece he suggested for the weekend. I brought it back the following week and ordered one from him that actually cost 3 times more than the loaner. I have since purchased many more items from the same manufacturer through this dealer. The kicker here is that I wouldn't know a thing about this manufacturer's products if the dealer hadn't been there to answer my questions and loan the product to me for the weekend. Now, when I buy from him I sometimes get discounts, but it's not the driving factor for the purchase.
On the flipside, I've bought on Agon after hearing things at shows and at friends. Doing so, I don't believe I am taking away business that I owe to my dealer. The difference is I didn't go to my dealer and listen and then say "if you don't give me a discount I'll buy elsewhere!" or some other ultimatum that puts his business at risk.
I am in a similar boat as you, in that $11k is alot to spend on anything audio, and I want to get a good deal like anybody. But, I don't want to sacrifice my values in the process.
This is a great hobby. Don't underestimate how much a good dealer can improve your enjoyment of it. |
Douglikesaudio,thank you I have enjoyed reading all of the posts and am learing a little about this game. your litmus test for me is a little harsh. When you say"If, however, your intention is to take their resources without buying, you have in fact stolen." I never would even consider this option. If I hand over my money and the dealer takes it this results in a equitable transaction. Aussming each party has roughly the same knoldge base. I am but a green- horn in this sport, I belive in working for what i want and getting the most for that hard earned dollar. Douglikesaudio I enjoyed your post and hope to read more of your thoughts and that applies to all that have responed. cj |
Krelldog,you took the words right out of my mouth,10% is better than nothing.
Lush
here's what make's no sense to me about the dealer's who are unwavering on their price's or your defense of them,when you know the prospective buyer your talking with is a working man who needs to save in order to fund his purchase(like me)wouldnt it be smarter to make that buyer an offer he cant refuse even if it only meant making a 10% profit & gain a customer rather than chance alienating him,people who have to save & i really mean save & not just taking one vacation instead of 3 or putting off new furniture for their vacation home but realy save need to make their cash stretch & if you give them a smoking deal they will be back,instead of taking that approach they keep the price's high & drive that person to buy used leaving them with zip.
im very lucky that i have a great dealer who realizes that i simply cant afford to buy high end gear unless the price's are low enough that when i want to buy something different i can sell my old gear & not loose anything & maybee even put a few buck's in my own pocket instead of loosing a fat wad.
i will never understand the elitest attitude that many dealer's have twords customer's that ask for discount's or beg as you call it nor will i ever understand why people such as you leap to their defense,one thing that i know for sure is that if i had to pay 90% of msrp on the gear i buy i would be limited to midfi gear at best & by the time i saved up enough cash to buy a better 'whatever' the rest of my rig would be obsoulete so what would be the point of even trying to upgrade,i'd call it quit's before i went thru all of that & took huge losses when i sold to upgrade,the same 'starving dealers surely dont give a second's thought to me loosing 50% out of pocket at resale time,is that fair?
when a dealer give's a customer better price's he not only gain's a loyal customer but he gain's a customer that will upgrade more often & spend more in his store because he isnt loosing when he sell's his old gear to buy new but these guy's cant see that far ahead they are only worried about now instead of building a real customer base.
when i first went from midfi gear to the higher dollar gear i was forced due to a severe lack of funds to buy only used gear but after meeting a dealer who was willing to go the long haul with me & not try to make his whole monthly expenses off my single purchase i have been able to spend a lot of cash in his store & i constantly upgrade,also when i do upgrade i never make a move without first giving him the chance for my business.
i think that alot of dealer's have lost their way over the last 10 year's or so & blame their slumping profit's on internet site's & used gear buyer's instead of looking within & try to figure out why they do not have a loyal customer base anymore & it's not home theater either,home theater has become a huge part of high end audio & like it or not any dealer that is to thrive will need to offer these types of products.
last year most dealer's snubbed their nose's at my business & made me offer's like 5 or 10% off & in return they gained 0% of close to 30k worth of my upgrade's & lost me forever as a potential customer while the dealer who i am loyal to profited 15% off of that same business with me & this summer when i upgrade he will profit again.
Cjlcapp,keep on looking bro,sooner or later you WILL find a dealer who wants to have you as a customer & who will give you good deal's,it took me a while but i found one & you will too.
dont take my comments as dealer bashing because they are not & i do believe that dealers can use our business but i dont believe that we should buy from them soley on the basis that they have the gear. |
Cjlcapp, you have clearly touched a nerve! I have wrestled with the ideas at the core of your question for some time. The answer for you will be of course be your own, but it's encouraging to see such differing points offered for consideration. In fact, the emotion displayed in this thread shows that we take this seriously.
On that thought, I offer my own view. Lush, I agree with you. Krelldog, I disagree but I see where you are coming from.
The litmus test for me is found through intention. If your intention is to buy from a brick and mortar, then taking their resources is potentially an equitable transaction. If, however, your intention is to take their resources without buying, you have in fact stolen.
This is obviously a moral thing, and I don't pretend to take the high road easily. Anyone else have the same view? |
Lush, I can assure, to no end, that people are not buying Rolex because of their service. When it can take 12 weeks for service work to be done. |
I must be one of the lucky ones. My dealer lets me home audition anything in his store than doesn't weigh more than a small car. I can go in his store and listen for a full day 10am to 6pm and he doesn't bother me for one minute unless I ask him too. On top of
that he gives me 20%
off on new equipment and up to 35% off on current demos. BTW- He carries all the top brands that you can't get discounts at the other stores. Is this guy going out business, Hell no he is one of the highest volume dealers in the state and I don't live in Kansas.(no offense to Kansas people I'm just trying to make a point) He lives in a multi-million dollar house and drives a car that cost a third as much as my house and I don't live in a shack. Meanwhile the other dealers have turned down my business because I asked for a discount. In the last year 2 of those dealers have closed there shops and the 3rd one just sold his business. |
