I agree with you charles1dad at least 55-45 Between a Source and DAC. Synergi is important and when you hear how important the Source isit is a eye opener. At least to me😆
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@knock1
Yep, not at all surprised by your results. If you were to substitute the nice Cambridge CXC for the Jay's Audio CDT2 MK III or Pro-Ject CD Box RS2 transport you'd hear quite further sound quality improvement with that same DAC.
Charles
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There is no longer a compelling reason to buy a CD player unless you love playing with physical things.
Er, yeah, whatever... Are companies still manufacturing CD players & transports...you know the answer. Do many audiophiles have large CD collections...you know the answer to that too.
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From my personal experience. I had been using Arcam 192 CD player, not too shabby in its days, as a transport with Denafrips Ares II, it was big improvement over Arcam inside DAC. Then I bought Cambridge CXC transport and the improvement was really significant. Here I said it.
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Given the requirements of the DAC and CD transport and their impact on sound quality when either is suitably upgraded my perspective of their respective contribution is 50-50 Maybe 55-45 in favor of the transport. The delivery of the digital signal from the sorce is paramount. So this obviously varies from one individual's viewpoint compared to another.
Charles
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IME, it is important, but less than DAC.
if DAC = 100% then transport is 30-40%.
Similar to upgrade the digital I/C's from transport to DAC vs analog I/C's from DAC to amp.
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@havocman
The P700 may not have been Esoteric’s very best effort but during that era it served me well and was better than most in that particular price range at that time. I’ve heard their more recent models at a not too distance dealer.
Charles
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Charles 1dad, the esoteric p700 was not that good, that was their cheapened out version of the esoteric P10 which is what I have, that thing was so well built they were even using OCC single crystal wire for the internal wire back in 1990 when it came out, they were so far ahead of everybody even back then, but they're transports now are way crazy priced, the P10 was only $2,500 Canadian back then and the p1 was $4,000, now they're transports are like 10 $20,000 that's ridiculous.
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@noske
No problem.. If you go to the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T website description page they lay out their product design and objectives.
@havocman
I had the Esoteric P700 which may have been the first generation of the VRDS disc clamp-drive unit. I purchased it in the mid-late 1990s. It still functions fine today! I have used it in various 2nd systems. When acquired it was considered one of the better CD transports for reasonable cost. I have heard numerous later generation Esoteric transports but have not owned them.
Charles
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Charles 1 dad, which esoteric transport did you own?
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@charles1dad Pro-Ject specifically wanted a small footprint package (Their "Box" concept). Adding an internal LPS they reasoned is inevitably going to increase the physical package (Which they are seeking to avoid).
OK, thankyou, I didn’t know that.
This makes everything I’ve said irrelevant. Too late to delete everything now.
Also, I agree with the logic that people who buy the Pro-Ject will possibly be of such a disposition to wish to personalise it according to their own perhaps unconventional preferences.
You have described this for people like me who are a bit slow to hear the penny drop. I would like that choice too, having thought about it for a nano-second - my thought process often goes on tangents rather than a straight line. It is aspects like the ability to customise which make the journey enjoyable and maybe cerebral.
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I had the Luxman CD-06 : the driver was very good ,but the Dac within was à nightmare. : sound was flat, no dynamic … now I bought the Audio Note CDT two/2 with the Metronome Technologie C6: : the sound is great ! Very 3D , open , detailfull : I love it now. The Moon Mind 2 streamer is also connected on de Metronome : great !!
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Putting two components into a shared chassis is always a compromise. A dac introduces noise to the transport section. It’s better to keep them seperate. Usually a transport will have a better mechanism and read capability, as that is where the money is spent, absent the dac. Cyrus makes a nice transport in the CD-T for $1200. Add in a nice Border Patrol r2r dac.
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I'd rather stand before my stacks as if in a library to decide what I'm going to listen to next than screw around with an I-pad.
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@charles1dad ...yeah, I saw the pix after my earlier post. It seems I haven't really kept fully up to date with the changing Jay's lineup in the last couple years. Sorry for the confusion.
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@acresverde
I took the time last night to post picture and info regarding the CDT3 which is a transport. It was their flagship CD transport as recent as 2019. They may have creased production as this unit relied on the Phillips CD PRO-2 drive mechanism. Which is distinguished from their CDT2 which uses the Phillips CDM4 drive mechanism.
Charles
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@mdrone
I don't own the Jay's Audio CDT2 MK II/III. I'm sure the component dimensions are available on their website.
Charles
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Charles,
How wide is the Jays transport?
How much clearance does it require?
Looks like its built like a tank.
M
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@charles1dad ...again, I have not checked but it seems to me the CD3 was a player in toto and not just a transport.
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CEC TL5 Belt driven top loader with Denefrips Ares 2 DAC...Wonderful. Turntables isolate motor noise by using a belt drive. CEC gets it!
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@noske
Well for me the number 1 objective of an audio component is "how does it sound?". So that's the first thing to address and get right. Pro-Ject specifically wanted a small footprint package (Their "Box" concept). Adding an internal LPS they reasoned is inevitably going to increase the physical package (Which they are seeking to avoid).
So they went the route of external LPS for those who desire this option. Keep in mind as I and other owners and listeners have pointed out, sound quality with the wall wart is excellent. So the LPS is not mandatory for excellent sound quality.
A number of users have acquired Pro-Ject's own LPS or the LTA (Linear Tube Audio) LPS with excellent results. I opted for the Fidelizer Nikola II LPS and the pairing is divine.
So owners have used different brands of power supplies with terrific results. This flexibility is an additional asset. I listed the expensive transports as a reference point if they want the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 unit. These types of high quality CD drive mechanisms are the heart and soul of a transport.
There is currently no other CD transport anywhere near the cost of the RS2T that utilizes this latest technology CD drive unit. That's a very key point. Look, I understand no matter how good I or someone else believes a component is, it is not going to please or be for everyone.
Maybe the Pro-Ject simply is not what you're looking for, easily understood. There is a wide market for other transport choices. I feel that based on my actual listening experiences and direct interactions it is a marvelous sounding CD transport. YMMV as is always the case with audio related matters.
Charles
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From the review by Mr London -
An audiophile who will spend $3,000 on a dedicated CD transport would be very motivated to spend a bit more to get the maximum performance out of the Box RS2 transport.
.....I contacted Mark Schneider, owner of one of my favorite companies, Linear Tube Audio,......They also make very high-quality linear power supplies that can be customized for other companies’ gear. I had Mark take their LPS+ linear power supply and change it from a 12V/3Amp to a 20V/3Amp to match the Box RS2 transport input level, along with building a DC umbilical cable. Total cost, $645.
This for a custom made external LPS. In my experience custom made are much more expensive (and not just in $ terms - yours and my time to research and talk and research, perhaps travel, etc. It adds up) than a supplied component due to one off tooling costs and so on.
And after all that, it is still external. I maintain that it is false economy to not include an internal LPS. Like saving pennies on an heirloom.
Still, well within comfort boundaries compared with the prices of other technologically comparable units - those prices are so far away as to make any comparison like apples to oranges.
The Pro-Ject engineers would design one that is optimal for the transport. I would suggest that this would be "better" than a generic one that is designed to fit around the product rather than specifically for it.
So, we agree -
The cherry on top is one can further extend the sound quality if they decide at some point to add a LPS. This is a splendid scenario as far as I am concerned.
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@noske
At this price point I’m quite disappointed that Pro-Ject does not include an internal linear power supply
With all due respect I believe that you are missing the value/performance ratio of the Pro-Ject CD Box RS2T. At this juncture there are only a few manufacturers who have adopted the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 and Blue Tiger servo-84 unit.
Aqua Hifi La Diva II (9,000.00), Accustic Arts Drive II (18,000.00) and the Gryphon ETHOS CD player (39,000.00). These companies felt the CD Pro-8 was the best choice for their flagship CD transports/players.
Pro-Ject ofers the consumer this latest drive technology at roughly 3,000.00. This is very much worth acknowledging. Yes it is physically scaled down compared to the more expensive alternatives. It comes with a wall wart power supply whereas the more expensive alternatives have LPS as standard.
So Pro-Ject is providing a reasonable cost entry point to obtain the latest Stream Unlimited CD drive mechanism technology. I do not mind the smaller form factor at all. As Terry London noted in his review, even with the supplied SMPS wall wart it still outperformed his Jay'sAudio CDT2 MK II, MBL CD transport, CEC, Accustic Arts transport (Not the current Drive II)and so on.
I can understand his conclusions as the wall wart powered Pro-Ject outperformed my P.S.Audio PWT with has a LPS. So it seems to me that the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 and servo unit are likely the dominant factor as to why it sounds so terrific. Pro-Ject went with a wall wart power supply to lower the price entry point. They do offer a LPS upgrade option.
@bigkidz who is a manufacturer of custom high end audio components and said the diminutive Pro-Ject outperformed his highly regarded Metronome CD player and his CEC. Again accomplished with the wall wart power supply. So in my opinion the Pro-Ject RS2 transport offers superb sound quality at its asking price.
The cherry on top is one can further extend the sound quality if they decide at some point to add a LPS. This is a splendid scenario as far as I am concerned.
Charles
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Yes the cd transport matter. If it is made proper it does not matter if it is a top loaded transport or not. Some of what i have had in My own system:
Oppo, Cambridge, Lyngdorf, Playstation, C.E.C TL5, Simaudio Moon Neo 260D,Jays Audio mk2, Denafrips Avatar, TASCAM CD-9010
Have had a trusted friend test the Pro-Ject rs2 t against the TASCAM CD-9010 Used as a transport only.
Now i have the TASCAM.
In My opinion you get a ok value for your money from the newest transport from Jays and Pro-Ject is better. Compared to what has been made the last 10 years of cd transports you get more than you Pay for with Theese 2 transports
The Discontinued Avatar transport from Denafrips was a good transport but service was.......
Just my opinion.
Regards
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And now I see that Terry London has written about this error of judgement in his review, but doesn't quite get to mentioning internal PS.
I'm currently trying to digest his word block, deliberately designed to make my three neurons fight with each other. And I'm not even dyslexic.
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@charles1dad I got a LPS about 5 or 6 weeks ago and its just improved to silly good level.
At this price point I’m quite disappointed that Pro-Ject does not include an internal linear power supply.
Should there be disadvantages with this approach I must have blinked.
What pearls of wisdom did you discover in your recent LPS research and adventure? I know very little about the nuances of external LPS units, so another learning curve I guess.
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CDT3-MK2 Flagship CDT
 
"I was so taken with the Terminator driven by the Jay’s Audio CDT-3 MK2 that I have bought two sets of both, one for each system, and sold my previous digital gear which included an Esoteric K-03x. The Terminator blew away the Esoteric’s DAC and the CDT-3 MK1 blew away the Esoteric’s transport. The Terminator is finely built, an ergonomically excellent functional design, comes with a 3 year warranty, and most importantly sounds excellent. And for me it is a bargain at its price. I wholeheartedly recommend it and the excellent Jay’s Audio CDT-3 MK2 for your consideration. And last but not least, the worldwide distributor, Alvin of Vinshine Audio provides service second to none. Thanks for reading. "
@stuartk
This is the model I was referring to above that used the Phillips CD PRO 2 drive unit.
Charles
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Yes @nonoise
Terrific SB game!
@stuartk
I understand that you have to feel comfortable with a component. The smaller scale form factor was chosen as to require less shelf space. The irony for me is that the small physical size is yielding huge sound field. Makes me think of Nagra. Every bit as fluid and music flowing as my old WellTempered turntable set up (Which bettered my Linn Sondek LP-12). Pro-Ject engineers did their homework on this one.
Charles
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Off topic
I believe that the 2nd half of this super bowl is going to be classic!
Charles
Oh...it was. 😀
All the best,
Nonoise
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You and me, both, Charles!
Even my wife remarked at how good it sounded.
Just wish it was in a standard size case.
I guess Europeans have a thing for miniaturized audio. . .
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Off topic
I believe that the 2nd half of this super bowl is going to be classic!
Charles
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@stuartk
I really wish the RS2T ergonomics and smaller size had worked out for you. You already know how good it sounds with the supplied SMPS wall wart. I got a LPS about 5 or 6 weeks ago and its just improved to silly good level. This small footprint transport just fills my listening space with a beautiful organic presentation.
Charles
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@stuartk
Well the Aqua Hifi Diva II would get you the coveted CD Pro-8 drive/Blue Tiger -84 servo integrated drive unit re RS2T. However for the cost I don’t believe that you will beat the Jay’s CDT2 transport. Just my 2 cents.
Charles
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@charles1dad:
Thanks, Charles; that's very encouraging!
I've e mailed Jay's re: availability of spare drives.
I'd still like to move to a top-loader but naturally am wary of the infamous "boat anchor syndrome".
If I had the $, I'd just buy the Aqua Diva and be done with it. . . and a matching Formula DAC (why not?).but that's not likely.
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@stuartk
When Teajay (Terry London) reviewed the Pro-Ject RS2T he mentioned that the Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK II was better sounding than his CEC, MBL, P.S.Audio PWT and his Accustic Arts transports. Quite the very high praise. I believe that you would be ecstatic with the CDT2 current version MK III. If the RS2T weren’t around that would definitely have been my choice.
Charles
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@stuartk
The CDT3 was their flagship but I think it is no longer produced likely due to lack of Phillips CD Pro-2 units available as spares. They don’t have this problem with the CDM4 units for their CDT2 transport.
Charles
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@charles1dad :
Lucky for you that placement is easy!
I don't see a CDT3 on the Jay's website-- there's a CDT2 MK3. . . is that what you mean? I know they'll supply replacement lasers but not sure about the actual drive. If I bought the Jay's, I'd want a spare.
@mdrone :
Well, some of it is gone, which is why I don't play my electric guitar anymore (although I haven't had the heart to sell it, yet) and also why I have an SPL meter within reach of my listening chair ;o)
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@acresverde
I stand corrected.
The Jay’s Audio CDT3 (Their flagship transport) utilizes the Phillips CD PRO-2LF drive unit.
The Jay’s Audio CDT2 MK II/MK III utilizes the Phillips CD M4 drive unit.
Charles
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@charles1dad ...I didn't bother to check first but I'm pretty sure the Jay's transport does not use the Pro CD-2. CD-4 sticks in my mind.
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....at least you haven't lost your hearing....
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Aging is not improving my manual dexterity ! ;o)
LOL I hope that is not the case 😊
No problem for me placing the CD in the Pro-Ject.
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Aging is not improving my manual dexterity ! ;o)
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Somewhat off topic, but I had issues inserting disc's into the top-loading well of the Pro-ject without catching the disc on the side of the well. Does anyone know whether the well is less cramped on the Jay's?
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@noske
I understand they are very good but I don't like slot loading. Trays aren't much better.
I'm so superficial
I believe that there's something to that perspective. It seems that there are legitimate arguments for top loading CD mechanisms. Some of the most admired and regarded CD transports were top loading and many utilized the Phillips CD PRO-2 (Still used with the highly respected Jay's Audio transport) which is superseded by the Stream Unlimited CD Pro-8 drive.
The Pro-Ject is my first top loading transport and I really like this approach compared to my prior tray loaders. I have no experience with slot loading transports.
Charles
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Audiolab 6000CDT has a buffer which helps considerably MSRP ~ $700
I understand they are very good but I don't like slot loading. Trays aren't much better.
I'm so superficial.
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Sounds better but not that much impact which leads me to wonder if the issue is the transport in the Luxman ( or my digital cord).
Issues with CDP are usually always mechanical, not electrical. Like, due to any number of reasons they fail which may manifest in skipping, getting stuck etc which you may find sometimes happens "normally" with a defective or dirty CD.
Yeah, so look elsewhere as you suggest like some robust cabling. I understand that 75 ohm coax should be at least 1.5 meters - about 5 feet. No, I don’t understand either when normally shorter is better.
Or perhaps some hardware aspects of your CDP have deteriorated with age which affect the digital signal.
The Technics CDP I mentioned is unlistenable probaly due to dodgy soldering or whatever with age and poor storage, and not just because of the antique internal DAC. Haven’t tried an external DAC with it, I didn’t look for digital out. I doubt it somehow, but I might be surprised.
Anyway, "better" is a good start - as I said with mine, better (lower noise floor, better filtering, any jitter figured out etc), as it was already pretty good. That’s all.. Not for one nano-second do I trust anyone who says the earth moves with a component change - something else must be fundamentally weak.
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