Just spent a hour upstairs with the Linn system. My kids who play in the basement have being singing along with the Klipsch for awhile now. My wife who was downstairs was singing as well. (Beatles CD burn in) That is a first for her!
Today when upstairs the kids said Dad can you turn that off!!?? That sounds terrible! My youngest will sit and listen to music a long time for a young kid. I asked her which stereo she liked better and she just looked at me with a stupid look and pointed her thumb down. (meaning downstairs)(they have no idea of my preferences)
I feel when upstairs I can hear someone in the background saying attention Walmart shoppers. (over the Linn system)
So Dgarretson to qualify
I would take a NAD cd player (worth about $20) the Fisher x100d (which is the same as a Fisher 500c without the tuner I think paid $300) and 30 year old Klipsch Lascala's with the Duelund's (and I do not even have the mid caps) hands down with out a doubt over the Linn system.
The Linn speakers sound hard, with crazy amounts of white noise!
My Linn dealer who says when they loan out or sell equipment (not just Linn but whoever) the customer will often say I can tell it's much better than I had. They say give it a couple of weeks and then put the old piece back in. The customer always is "shocked" when the old piece goes back in.
By this I mean getting Duelund's was a massive upgrade. The real "shocker" is when you go back to what you had. (I can go upstairs different system and just shift to the other speaker as well to hear all original) |
Friend stopped by and had a listen.
He owns a set of Klipsch Heresy I's and plays guitar as well. (but not big into audio)
First 10 minutes he liked the vintage caps. He liked the "fuller sound". It was a sound he was used to. He has heard these speakers for more than 25 years. At first he did not know what to make of the changes. He kept saying you can pick out every instrument. (new caps)
After 30 minutes and getting acustomed he said you can pick out the whole orchestra. He said classical music lovers would go nuts. (but was still in the vintage camp for rock)
After about an hour he just kept shaking his head and saying I can not believe caps can do that! I just can not believe it!
He said making the motion of wrapping a peice of paper in to a ball and throwing it. (that is what the vintage sound like just krinkle it all up and through like garbage.
He is more excited than I am about the mid cap. He figures he will pick up everything from his guitar favourites.
He said vintage caps instruments never sounded like the actual instrument. At first he did like the pleasing tones of the vintage caps and that sound was always there even if you had no idea what is was coming from.
He also said if that was just the tweeter caps the speakers would be unrecognisable from original once the midcaps went in. |
After the friend left it made me start to think about speakers.
After I had installed the Sonicaps I was shocked at how the Klipcsh sounded like every other speaker? Whatever I had come to know after all these years was changed by caps. I did not understand how that could be?
When the friend said when he first heard them tonight he said he liked the vintage caps better. It was what he was used to (as he has Heresy's) and the sound was so different to him it confused him.
Where is the bass he said? (typical comment of low to mid-fi listeners view bass as a thump not some instrument) After awhile he said there is bass but only when someone is playing a bass and when they are not it is done. In fact he said there is only the sound of the instrument or nothing.
He said the vintage caps were like listening to a guitar amp and hitting the distortion pedal. Sometimes some pleasing tones but nothing was right. (full and distorted)
At first he thought the Duelund's sounded like a studio (recording) and the vintage were like "live". Near the end of the hour his frustration grew with the vintage.
The last half hour he just sat there shaking his head. He said I have heard the song all my life yet never heard it. He said that is just "phenomenal". |
It looks like your friend might have to put some Duelands in his Heresy speakers. You've just turned your friend into an audiophile. I hope he has an understanding wife when he starts explaining why he has to buy all these new things for his system. (O: |
Sherod
I am going over to his house for visit. He left here last night shaking his head talking about going home and listening to some of his albums.
Wife was up today at 8am and had the music cranked! That has happened NEVER in 15 years together.
More normal was when she came home she would say turn that down. Man that was frustrating. The only time I could have it loud was when she wasn't home or was drinking!
Here is a possible side benefit guys and I am sure many of you have similiar wives. I think women hear different. "A Day in the Life" Beatles (personal Beatles fav) In the car right when it gets going she would always turn it down. Man did that piss me off! Like turning down art. (caused more than one arguement) To me a masterpiece to her just a pile of noise at the end. I think men we hear what the guy was trying to do and women hear what it is and in a car stereo it is not good!
So to me it is worth $1500 on parts if she stops bugging me to turn it down!
Kind of just kidding but for 12 years she has bugged me to get rid of those ugly Klipsch. When I got the attractive Linn she cared more about getting rid of the Klipsch.
Just today she said why don't you get rid of the Linn speakers. No more bugging me about getting rid of the Klipsch. (that's worth something too)
So the moral is you can keep ugly speakers as long as the wife likes the sound! (and they are not in the living room) |
My wife was a bit put off by my oris 150 converging horn array with 8 oris 150 horns and dual upsized imperal bass horns with 4 -18in woofers. This system end to end touching no space between was 19ft wide. My wife hated the size but after a week she used them daily. When I sold them to build other designs. She was upset;) Now she only listens when I have a horn SET system shes doesnt know this but I do...When I use SS shes just doesnt use them. My sons picky if I change for the better he will sit centered listening for quite awhile. If its not up to snuff he says turn it down daddy, no music. Hes 8 and autistic so verbal but a bit behind. He does have a musical photographic memmory, knows 100s of songs even keeps beat and time between verse. He can drum very well without any teaching. Built his 1st loudspeaker design unaided at 4. All I did was solder wire to driver. He picked drivers, cabinet [a tube], dampening, port size ,etc. And all was right. Ive had 2 friends build copys but with a veneered tube. I was working on a customer project he was without my knowledge working on my bench, used tubes from shrink wrap both same size. Still have 1 he trashed the other. I do trust his ears for I have tested system after he complains and have measured problems. |
Holy Crap John 19ft!
Your wife and SET? Hmmmm Care to speculate why? I know (or should say hear) that with tubes vs. SS it is odd vs. even harmonic distortion. So even if a tube amp measures worse it sounds better. With SET how much power and how did you power all those horns?
Very interesting about your son.
In Autism as I understand it the mind becomes very attuned to some areas. Do you think his area was because you are interested in music/speakers? Seen a show once of an autistic guy who flew over Rome in a plane and drew the whole city. (from memory) |
For those who read this in the future and are thinking of a capacitor repair/upgrade.
For me there was some very good sites like Tony Gee's cap review. But what I found hard even after reading his review is what that would mean to me? He says his test based strictly on sound quality and not price. To me that opens a can of worms. That is how I ended up with three of his favs, the budget Sonicap (bang for the buck) Mundorf's seemingly on everyone's list and Duelund's the 12.5 out of 10 according to Tony (best ever tested) vs. the 8.5 Sonicaps at 1/20th the cost.
I read so much about caps it made me sick of caps! Then I just ordered the 4 kinds. (plus having the originals) After realizing I would have to hear for myself.
What I did find out is that the sound difference from one cap to another is nothing short of huge!
To relate the difference to other purchases. One's I class as huge. (Duelund vs. vintage is huge and in the range of these changes)
I owned a Mitsubishi LT20 (lousy turntable big $) then demo'ed against a Rega P3 (budget but real and not a toy) Mine sounded broken!
Getting Lascala's as a kid compared to Sanyo speakers was huge as well.
So Duelund's would rank in the top three biggest upgrades I have ever done.
Big upgrades (Duelund was bigger than these but these were big to me)
1. First Linn cartridge
2. Lp12 (first one)
3. First Linn pre-amp and amp coming from Japanese
Pretty big upgrades (clearly noticeable)
1. Linn Klout from LK series
2. Going to an almost loaded LP12 from basic one on comparison head to head old one was slow and antique sounding. But dimishing returns here. A lot more money
Good upgrades (but now you better have better ears than my friend) (some people would say huge but some people can hardly hear these
1. Linn Kairn from Kolektor
2. Linn Karik Cd from NAD
Upgrades but things that take two or three times comparing and most likely to notice on your system.
1. Went from 18guage to Monster cable 25 years ago. (that was the start of cable makes a difference at the time that was new some thought it was bull)
2. Went from dirt cheap (throw in) IC's with NAD to moderate IC's like $70
Upgrades that to me are crazy
1. Went to bi-amping Linn Klouts (total waste of money in my mind and a lot of $) To me the biggest disapointment ever for the $.
Hope this helps in what caps mean to a regular guy.
Another thing to consider is what do you like. I am love the LP12 sound which many consider to be colored. My speakers are horns which are very dynamic. (some would say colored) So I am from that camp for sure.
Many who liked the Sonicaps heard them as neutral and see other caps as colored.
The friend who heard the speakers thinks in terms of bass, punch, tones, sounding live etc. Until yesterday he never thought all those sounds were coming from an instrument.
So now I know why some guys seek out vintage caps. Vintage oil filled have MASSIVE distortion. This may sound like an insult but it is not if you like a rock concert sound. The vintage caps distortion is not an all bad distortion. The down side is low resolution and EVERYTHING sounds like a concert even when it is not supposed to.
So if you listen to AC/DC or hard rock music you may not want to say with vintage caps. (although you are stuck with everything sounded like a stadium)
What the Duelund's do is remove a HUGE layer of noise and reverb and allow you to see into the music.
I can now hear the distortion the mid caps are doing. Sounds from that range are sloppy and distorted and I can not wait for the caps to get here.
Another huge benefit I did not see coming is the Lascala's have wayyyy more bass. (which I thought the lack of was in the speaker design but that was caused by the capacitors) Although I know there is not more it is just that the high freq noise is massively reduced and balanced is restored.
I expect more of this when the mid caps go in.
Even the friend who "liked" the stadium sound quickly grew tired of it. (and frustrated)
I will have two more reports to wrap this up. One when the mid comes in and one more likely on the CAST Duelund's I am likely to get for the tweeters. The CAST are known as the best on the planet. Tony rated the cheaper VSF's the best he has heard and he had not yet rated the CAST.
Stormen said some buddies consider the VSF's a little rough compared to CAST. That is mind boggling!
One thing for certain anything you think you have heard from a set of vintage Khorns is all wrong. In my mind as a almost 30 year owner ALL for the better with Duelund's! |
I did some digging on the Linn speakers and I understand they use Bennic XPP and a 10uf costs about $7. I guess I can understand the hard brittle sound? Supposed to be somewhat better than Solen and around the level of the very lowest Mundorf. What exatly does one pay for in most new speakers???? |
Volleyguy,
Found this under the news section on the Duelund website:
They also use the CAST inductor, though he doesn't speak about it in isolation.
http://www.speakerbuilder.dk/content/getPage.asp?id=36
You may have to choose: English flag in the upper right corner, articles, tests, Duelund Coherent Audio
His findings seem to mimick yours. |
Stormen thanks for the article.
I used to find this DIY stuff kind of nuts. Like how could any DIY guy get speakers to sound better than a major manufacturer? I often thought it was just to the personal tastes of the listener.
I am finding myself starting to move into Art Dudley mentality. I do not know if you have read his latest stuff but clearly moving into some vintage mentality. Stereophile gave huge praise to the Fisher 500c saying it gives up precious little to modern new designs. This is much tougher than one thinks as Fisher does not advertise in Stereophile as it is bankrupt.
By that I mean I really think I would buy whatever speakers I liked used and gut them and put in good parts. The cost of a new speaker (from a major manufacturer) with good parts is/would be crazy. Also I doubt any speaker at a reasonable price uses good parts. (Johnk this is not directed at you as I know you do and can use good parts)
I think the majors must try and get as good as sound as possible while spending as little as possible. Which begs the question can corporations improve audio? Are corporations best suited to cost cutting? When Paul Klipsch sold the company it seems like the first thing the new owners did was cut costs. Cheaper crossover parts, cheaper drivers, etc. The problem is I am sure Klipsch makes more $ today than it ever did using good parts. Just pride stopped Paul from using cheap parts?
Which Stormen brings me back into Steen's camp if crossovers parts were top notch you would not hear the improvements. When $20 resitors are "heard" as an improvement it screams weak link. |
Stormen I hear in your thread you mention that passive (Duelund) sounds much better than active for car stereo?
Is this correct? |
If you want a pic of the massive oris rig email. Used 2 watt 45 SET on horn array on bass horns used a 18 watt set. On loudspeaker like I mostly use SET are the most musical and real sounding. I try most every thing end up back in the SET and horn camp. |
Interesting note.
When I installed the Sonicaps (mids and tweeter) I could not listen to both speakers at the same time. They sounded like to speakers out of phase one going in while one going out. With the Duelund I have done most "voiceing" on one speaker but it is not hard to listen to both. Anyone care to speculate why? the speed? is the same on the two natural caps?
I can listen to the Duelund and vintage speakers together and they sound very good together. why? Yes the Duelund is better in every way but they are cut from the same cloth.
My goal was to keep the original sound and found the Duelund to be the closest.
Is this Steen's talk about speakers being in phase?
Is it plastic?
Is it the cap speed?
One thing it is real. Vintage foil in oil matches closely Duelund Virtual Stack Foil.
I can try with the Mundorf's to see if it was just the Sonicaps or Poly caps in general but it is unmistakable.
In past post you will see me comment on the two different systems. |
Interesting note.
Ask the youngest daughter (the one who asks to go and sit in a stereo store for 2 hours no complaints listening to music) freaked the salesman out he just kept looking at her like what is she doing? I asked what she though of upstairs speakers she made a crinkly face (like static) and said the (Klipsch she meant) sound much better.
So I asked her for left and right speaker she had a puzzled look like what's the difference?
So that's when I started listening to both speakers same time. No timing issues. She is right in a way they do sound the same. The Duelund's are a wayyyy lower noise version of the same thing. But shouldn't they be as they are both the same style? Neither has plastic. The vintage are wild but "real" and the Duelund's are civilized much more detailed and yet still "real".
But the common thread is both sound "real" instruments on neither sound like plastic. Is this what Steen was really doing modernizing an old idea? He was a fan of vintage caps. |
Volleyguy,
You should see the comment I made about the passive / active solutions in the context that many active filters in car stereo are DSP based, something I don't consider ideal.
I've heard both passive and active systems featuring Duelund components, both types have sounded great to me.
Regarding your statement about the vintage part of the Duelund design I agree completely. One would do well to remember, that the shift from metalfilm caps in paper and oil or wax to what we have today in the metallized designs, did not happen because of the quality in sound reproduction, but because they are smaller and cheaper to manufacture. As I see it, the Duelund caps are in effect good well proven tech taken bang into the 21st century. |
Thanks Stormen.
Just did not want people to think I am nuts, that the vintage and Duelund do sound similiar.
I was always confused by the vintage Klipsch magic. I thought it was horns. Then put in the Sonicaps and the speakers sounded "cheap". I was initially surprised by this.
I was also surprised that plastic caps plastized the sound. (not sure why I was surprised)
I am now likely to be on a mission after this is done to replace wire that is plastic coated. For sure in the speaker as it needs it anyway.
I had always wondered since getting the vintage amp and being very surprised by it, as to the "improvements" we have had in 40+ years. (Stereophile was "ga ga" over the sound) I have also noticed a lot of vintage amps that come up for sale after they have been "upgraded". Some will say I do not like the tone anymore. Is it the plastic caps? |
Stormen ever tried the aluminum VSF's?
I think my vintage foils are aluminum. |
The first White papered Cap, first real tested cap against like 300 others.. The first it seems with real results on how or why sound changes from cap to cap, and its not electrical... Highly suggest reading the first link, and then Watching the second link which is a video of this.. Very cool stuff, I am currently installing these into a tube preamp.
http://madisound.com/pdf/claritycap/MRWhitePaper.pdf
http://www.sonicstate.com/news/shownews.cfm?newsid=6667 |
Very good Undertow.
I was interested in how some people like high resonating caps. Like my friend when he first heard the comparison he like the perceived "fullness" of the sound. Massive distortion is what it is. After awhile he got frustrated with it but intitial reaction was good.
The vintage cans are a tin can and the sound sounds like it comes from a can resonating.
My friend did leave saying he could not believe the difference and thought it bigger than ANY amp (tube) vs. SS analog vs. digital difference of anything he ever heard.
Undertow as I understand this though Clarity Cap wants to keep the mass produced caps but with less resonating?
Undertow I can say that the vintage cap resonates like crazy and should with it's tin can shape but I sure do not hear resonate distortion on the Mundorf Supreme or Silver in Oil. I hear a plastized sound. This should get interesting. Is this a industry fighting back of changing the style of caps and saying we need same caps with less resonance? |
Volleyguy
The MR Clarity cap is not a mass produced cap like their others it is a brand new line, and from the Humble hifi site with the tests the one just below the new clarity MR is the DTAC which was tested and pretty much ranked the same as the mundorf.. The Clarity cap MR is more expensive, not quite as expensive as the Silver gold oil..
My concerns with Mundorf oil caps is mostly in long term electronic environments of heat, and nobody has really been able to see if newer oil caps will hold up over a very long term or not deteriorate at all.. Speakers I would not be as concerned about leakage or floating from the value as much.
Hence my choice in going this route, the Oil Gold got a 11.5 rating nearly as high as the duelund in the speaker tests..
However the DTAC from clarity cap which is said to not sound like any other clarity cap got a 10.5 and these MR's should be just that much better...
I can tell you this, the MR is quite a bit different approach for sure, I bet they will for about half to 1/3rd the price in electronic applications be equal or better than the duelunds. I used the SILVER oil Mundorfs in the electronics, Great hi's and mids, but bass was not as authoritative being in a Full range application like an electronic device putting out 5 hz to 50 khz for example..
Your Testing is very limited to simply a VERY limited frequency range in your speaker just feeding one DRIVER response at a time... That does not mean they are not great or superior in that single application as you have found they are that good, but for reliability, and for FULL signal unrestricted audio frequency handling, I believe this MR from clarity cap, and such types as VH caps, sonicap platinums, might just be slightly a cut above most of the mundorf and even possibly duelunds in this application for a few un-obvious to the passer by reasons.
I am planning to try your Duelunds in the copper foil VSF config on my own Klipsch horns.. I have full out Alpha core inductor and Jantzen superior caps in them now, The bass would benefit probably ZERO from using a duelund so leaving that alone I will change out my horn cap with the Duelund because I can believe they have that one more step of dimension and smoother noise floor, however I kind of refuse to use the Duelunds that you need to order special in 400 volt at double the price for an electronic application.. I am sure they would be fine, maybe a little magical, however due to the odd Shape, and the "Iffy" results in a full range electronic application, including the fact you will still have more caps changing the sound down the road in the speakers.. I will just believe the MR's will do a better job.
By the way the Jantzen superior caps for about 25% of the cost of mundorfs I believe a better value and sound overall, and are slightly smaller for installation.. you can see the praise on those as well at the humble hifi site, I just decided you can't put all your eggs in one basket of tone.. You are not the first to break ground on the duelunds sounding excellent in hi frequency transducer applications. So I believe you that they are special and worth a shot even at the obscene prices, which by the way I need to use duelund because they are the only ones that will custom make any value you need, any other cap I can't really get it. |
Volley
Oh and sorry what I mean by the odd shape of the duelund above is installing it is a task in my case for this electronic device, and may not fit as professionally as I would like. The MR is super huge too but with the round shape can probably make it work with some standoff from the board or something. Also I highly suggest reading that MR white paper again, it will sink in more and somethings I missed on the first run thru, also watch the video a second time, and you might be swayed that for the price they should be right there if not better in some applications than the top mundorfs or duelunds. |
Undertow
I did not mean anything bad against Clarity Cap. I see from Tony Gee they are rated very highly. I would have had them in my test if they were available from same supplier.
I just did not like a couple of Clarity's comment's. Like this one.
"The new MR range harnesses all of the knowledge gathered throughout the research programme and we believes offers the market a superior product based upon science and research rather than
snake oil".
I am not sure who they are trying to discredit the Teflon's or Duelund?
Another quote
"Specifically, we wanted to understand the
underlying technology of our capacitors, without looking at exotic materials and strange assemblies".
Again who are they trying to discredit?
I just did not like those comments but do look forward to what you think of them! I also am a little touchy when the industry seems to protect the current ways of doing things. I remember getting back into vinyl after being barraged when digital came in about no tics and pops like all would be great. I am also a little ticked at finding out how good vintage tubes sound after my dealer kind of told me tube people were also a little odd?
I do also want to hear more than just tweeter caps and can't wait till they are here. I do also realise Duelund is very expensive! |
Volley no offense but I believe both of those comments you cut are very just well "universal", they basically said well we decided to see if different shapes and materials were simply different shapes and materials not necessarily contributing to sound but contributing to the type of design necessary to use these materials they chose, I don't see that they were trying to discredit or say anything was wrong with other designs..I mean come on you don't see everybody including duelund trying to give a little extra fluff to their design marketing? I mean they virtually discredit the entire industry if you look at their point of view too!
IN FACT go look at the Clarity Cap DTAC its totally out of control ! It does not look like a cap at all, it looks like Duelunds inductors! So They are not trying to say the types of designs were not executed well by many, but simply that it could be executed obviously in a more traditional way as well vs. forcing a square peg into a round hole.. in a capacitor configuration. Don't think they discredit anyone, and they even state they worked closely with many of the cap manufactures on what they were trying to accomplish. There is definitely snake oil in some of the designs..
By the way I was not totally blown away by Clarity cap SA series, they were nice, and did nothing wrong, also HUGE, and believe it or not better built than even the mundorfs on many levels and much cheaper, but they were just nothing too exciting.. I would not have suggested the claritys if I did not see this was not even of their own family in design, I found the clarity caps however the best of cheaper caps minus the jantzens, and thats their lower lines, I expect pretty good things from the MR so I will not B.S. anybody about them, I have no gain from that, but they just make sense over spending 200 for V-cap or something that seems to probably be no better. here is the link to the DTAC. The DTAC was their previous top of the line till the MR came along as well.. Tell me Clarity cap is only trying to push conventional cylinder type designs now :-)
http://www.claritycap.co.uk/ |
Undertow
I can not comment on Duelund in electronics. I have only being rebuilding the low voltage speaker crossovers.
I agree on the obsene prices. I can not wait till you give your impression of the Duelund for the high freq.
That is why I had originally ordered one Duelund for the mid range as to see the effects were as big as the high freq. (worth the $)
On the low freq did you find the Alpha core to be a big step up from the original inductor? I also would expect less difference in the lows as error is not a critical.
I am still waiting and looking forward to eval'ing Duelund CAST for tweeters after being so impressed with VSF.
|
I will update on the Silver in Oil. The last time I had it in I was not noticing the the upward tilt so much as it did seem as hours seem to be smoothing it out somewhat. I will try it again with Duelund and Supreme again.
I need to know this for myself as my other speakers sound lousy since the new caps went in. (so may do them as well)
In a seperate question I had thought of two systems but now think it crazy as the better one just reveals the faults of the poorer one and mostly just sits there. (srreaming for more money!) Anyone else find that? |
Undertow where do you find Clarity cap prices?
Thanks |
I realize not really anybody can comment on duelund in electronics.. I have no need for the Cast design as I have a feeling its just gonna be another level of diminishing returns especially in a 10 dollar horn... But worth it if you really want the best without replacing a speaker.
As for low frequency, Yes the 12 gauge copper ribbons from alpha core goertz are 10 times better, the power, low frequency response, balance and efficiency all seem increase substantially in all of the klipsch speakers I have upgraded in the past, ONE thing is to make sure however you can get the EXACT replacement value is purchased to replace the original, not one off the shelf that is just close.. I believe Goertz is in connecticut still and you can call they will sell you a pair of the exact value inductors you need.
However for the Horns I found that the Alpha core 14 gauge did not really mark a large improvement, you just don't need the energy for a parallel inductor in the horn circuit, I found a better sounding and easier to install inductor for the horn was a 14 gauge 800 watt Erse inductor, its an air core, not ribbon, which you can buy oversized and have a company wind it down for you to the correct value smaller, the ribbon inductors you can not wind down to a lower value, the erse also handles 150 watts more than the ALpha core, however of course 14 gauge and 800 watts is not even close to necessary for your 100 db horn, but I like overkill and good quality so I will only go down so far :-)
The erse inductors are about the same price as Alpha core of the equal gauge and value for your horn. But I still love the Ribbon 12 gauge copper on the woofers the best. |
Clarity cap prices here...
http://madisound.com/manufacturers/claritycap/mr.php |
Thanks Undertow
Next week I will be ordering inductors as well.
The CAST by Duelund I can not say for sure if dimishing returns as I did not find the VSF's to be dimishing returns but large returns. I used to think I could never listen to digital unless I spent some crazy amount of money and even still did not know what it meant. I must say this is the first time I have enjoyed listening to digital. So for the price of caps I can enter the digital age and not have to listen to just vinyl.
I still have not heard the turntable on the Duelund's. I am waiting for the mid caps to be here to do that. So to me the caps are worth it. In some ways I am afraid to hook up the table, I love/hate when you get a new reference! I used to like my other speakers before the Duelund's. Now I cannot even listen to them, really that is kind of a bummer. |
Thanks Undertow
I wish Tempo eval'ed Clarity as well. As it is nice to have two opinions. I found the Supreme's much better than Sonicaps and Tony did not rate them much higher? All of our ears are slightly different. I found the dynamics alone worth the price for the Supreme's.
But Tony does not talk about that? (except in the congestion as how one cap is less or more congested) |
It could be interesting to try some small-value teflon caps bypassing the caps you've tried-- particularly the Mundorf SIO. Mil-spec surplus NOS Russian FT-3 teflon can be had in .1uf-.22uf values on the cheap from Eastern Euro sources on Ebay. I've had good luck with these in electronics, but never tried them in speakers. I wouldn't pay attention to the published reviews of the russian teflons, unless they make it clear than they tested the superior FT-3 version. |
I have bypassed mundorf silver / oils with .1 sonicap platinum's and yes it does add a little more clarity, Zip or speed, and more solid bass. If cheap enough its worth a shot, but then again I think just using one single better cap if possible might be the way to go, due to add up the cost of an exotic teflon and then the big body type of a mundorf and it might cost as much or in some cases more than just using a cap that will do it pretty close on its own, if its in a small size that is.. For example a 1 uF cap is not too large in value, and a better one vs. bypassing would prrobably be better, but if you got an application of like 2uF or 5 uF I can see the advantage in trying a nice .1 uF to bypass it especially in the cost differences. |
It's very easy to play with russian teflon, as FT-3 is <$5. Low price does not reflect upon the quality of these products of the old Soviet military industrial economy. However they are large in size (.1uf/600V is 1" x 2"). Volleyguy, if you'd like to try some & report results I'll send you a pair. They do require ample break-in. |
Dgarretson
Sorry I see what your saying.. I missed the whole russian 5 dollar thing.. yeah worth a shot |
Even in 1980 they were realizing possibly the biggest advancement in upgrades of this audio technology was not the exact topologies but the capacitors it seems.. I have heard myself bigger sound differences using the same component with different caps over buying other totally different audio in many cases.. Interesting article below, check out the date!
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm |
Been gone of couple of days.
Dgarretson I may take you up on this. I could order a Mundorf Supreme 10uf for the midrange, to go with the 2.2 I have. I need to total 13uf (or close) I am waiting on Duelund. The Russian Teflon is interesting. Did you buy one of those boxes? |
I have been looking into doing the caps in the Linn speakers as well. Not sure I want to spend Duelund money again so soon but maybe Duelund Aluminum VSF for tweeter. I took the base off the Linn speaker on Saturday and they kind of seal the bottom screws. So I going to have to check with the Linn dealer on what to do? Do not want to hurt resell value. They are around 10 years old anyway or more. |
Russian caps are available in various lot sizes. FT-3 teflon, FT-1 teflon(compact 200V version), and K40Y9 PIO are all worth a look as coupling caps, and as filtering or bypass caps in PS. Space permitting they can be stacked in parallel to achieve larger values. |
Tearing apart the Linn speakers tomorrow. Looking at a less expensive redo there as well.
I have this theory that maybe a cheap Linn all in one player may sound better than much more expensive source and pre and amp with better crossover parts.
This goes right against what Linn has said for so long. I have really been questioning this (in my mind) overspending on source to run through crap crossover parts.
In my case a Linn Karik (with the Numerik) Kairn/Klout pushed 15k new. (with a Tuner) A Linn Classik was $1500. What if changing the speaker caps which Linn uses that are dirt cheap even retail to better crossover parts made the cheap Classik sound better than the much more expensive seperates? My wife would rather have just one piece of gear in the livingroom anyway in the second system.
It has been bugging me. I have taken Linn at there word and even if one did not get that brand I believed the formula of source first. Now I am really starting to wonder? A fully loaded new Lp12 is 15k plus! Then they run that through $2 capacitors! The Linn parts are much cheaper than Sonicaps. Not that price always means better but usually really cheap is just that. |
I have asked on the Linn thread about capacitors replacement. No response. Almost if it was a crazy idea. In Linn world Aktiv is taken as a given. I know it works well but what about just staying passive in the case of just being better without the massive expense?
Linn claims that the passive network can absorb 50% of the power! (at moderate/high volumes)
I think that can put to rest the importance of the crossover.
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:VC4GJNTO8-8J:www.tonbildspinnerei.ch/pdfs/Aktiv_Explanation.pdf+taking+out+Linn%27s+passive+crossover&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3 |
I took the Linn speakers apart and it is a crazy idea as the speakers crossovers are a circuit board. There is a 8uf Bennic and at least two other bigger caps 50mfd's and one unmarked cap. There is three inductors plus other parts I do not even know what they are. Much more complicated than the simple Klipsch "AA" so therefore more costly to redo. Linn claims just to skip the passive crossover and go aktiv is more cost effective. It seems to me Linn must not think one is going to stay passive for long as the 8uf Bennic is about $3 (if you order 10 or more which no doubt they are) Well built speakers and lots of insulation just not spending to much on the crossover parts.
The Linn Bennic 8uf cap is about the size of the 2uf Sonicap and is thought to be even a cheaper sounding cap. It is a tiny fraction of the size of the 2.2 Mundorf Supreme. I know some guys do not think cap size matters.
The 50mfd Bennic'a look to be worth a buck and half each. It would cost a fair $ to build out of Mundorf Supreme quality of parts though not being cost effective compared to used Aktiv and amps.
Scatch that idea. |
Clarity cap MR
Well its the best cap made period, for the price none will come close.. A Vcap with 400 hours on it will probably sound 95% similar.. out of the box these bad boys are all there! Unreal soundstage, earth cracking huge, vast, tight and clear bass
Vocals are full and dynamic without a hint of glare. Highs are silk, better than the oil caps in my opinion even, how did they do it? I have no clue, some caps are best in certain locations or frequency ranges, this is the best Full range wide open cap I have heard.. I was very worried that they would need some substantial burn in to clear up, or have lower glare and distortion, they don't need anything.. They are what I consider for the price of about 60 bucks a 1 uF cap, perfect. My previous caps in my tube amps and preamps before.. Yes they were all in the same equipment and changed out over the years
Warning the MR clarity caps are HUGE and HEAVY
1- my equipment came with Auricaps "So so"
2- Cardas caps, very nice, a little rolled off, but as good as any teflon caps
3- Mundorf Silver oils, excellent with highs and mids, bass was a bit too soft
4- Sonicap platinums, might be slightly better than the cardas, definitely better bass than the mundorfs, also a really good bypass cap. Take forever to burn in however..
5- Dynamicap (TRT Wondercaps) A little too emphasized and zippy, but if you need to pep up some tubes these can help.. These were not bad on their own, and pretty good in speaker applications, but benifited very good from sonicap bypasses above.. I have used these in both electronics and speakers as with all the above caps.
6- Jantzen superior, best cost to sonic ratio also with best voltage handling to most of the above, for the price these kill the cardas type caps which are not cheap, and are similar but better, they don't take much to burn in, they are a tiny bit fuzzy compared to some of the teflons, but still very natural, distortion is bettered with a good teflon bypass cap making these a bit more "Solid" sounding.. They have the best bass out of the above caps as well as very extended highs.
7- Finally the Clarity CAp MR
For the price, build quality, and incredible sonic response, these are not beat.. Zero need to mix with some other cap to try and re-balance something, absolutely the best out of the box caps as well.. And they play nice with others, ZERO compression in the sound, Best darkest background and just depth, no doubt this is a worldclass cap, I can believe these for the money will probably beat out the V-cap types without question and are available in way bigger values than the v-caps
I would look no further than these if you want all of what these exotic caps claim like the Mundorf Gold Oils, and the v-caps, even the duelunds. These will work out the kinks in even the most critical applications I truly believe and thats not just because I am now using them.
I have not heard the caps in a speaker like all the others above, however I can say I doubt they will not perform to the highest in that application as I have them running full range single caps right now handling virtually the entire signal feeding all my other caps in the system which are 100% Jantzen superiors, I dumped all the others. I am going to back them with a Duelund VSF in a crossover, this will be a world class mix..
My opinion, best cheap but not too cheap caps are the Jantzen superiors for sure, no contest even with the caps 4 and 5 times the price in the ones I have experienced, the MR's are that final just put it on cruise control level however, they do nothing but perfect.. Who knows once they burn in, but this is the first ones I have heard that I don't even care!!! Much like how some believe the duelunds off the bat are just better from the instant satisfaction. And Zero regrets on the money spent vs. some of the above which get questionable. |
Oh forgot to mention the Jensen Oil Copper caps.. Reason is they are not worth mentioning... That should tell you enough, very fuzzy, very boring. I know they make the dulunds, but obviously a totally different design. |
Mundorf electrolyics
2x around $30 each speaker
1x Mundorf Supreme 8uf $60 each speaker
3 inductors Alpha Core app $150 each speaker
Misc caps and extra parts easy $300
You could easy spend $1k on decent crossover. Plus paying someone to do it and not being able to recoup the cost of crossover as no one would pay you anything for it. (not being made by Linn)
I have been doing sound test on mostly around 5 CD's. Took the same source up to Linn speakers. (linn Karik) (same Cd's) It is hopeless on those speakers.
This has been a learning experience for me. I will be de-tuning the livingroom system to just a Linn Classik all in one stereo as I do not think the speakers justify anything more. That would be better balance. It will become my wife's stereo for background music. Or just getting rid of them. |
Volleyguy
Yep.. A full on no holds barred crossover will cost more than the raw price of some speakers.. But everytime I have done it, was worth more than speakers costing 3 times more, just do the crossover and your 1000 dollar pair will be easily in competition with a 5000 dollar pair from my experience. Also one thing you did not mention, not only the parts cost and building is a pain to be professional about it, but they will not fit with these kinda parts in any speaker really, you then need to do external crossovers, redoing much wiring, and other issues to get the bi-wire or tri-wire setup to the outboard crossovers.. So this method is only for the hardcore, if you get involved be prepared! |
Thanks Undertow
You are right and I am not that hard core. Linn also does Aktiv and used Aktiv is likely cheaper and for sure more resaleable.
I have moved the CD player back in to the Linn system and can now understand why some were so excited about Sonicaps. They are better than Bennic in my mind. I hear Bennic (that linn uses) is about the same as Solen's which are 6.5 (according to Tony)
The Sonicaps are 8.5 so that would seem like a jump up it that is what you had before. Coincidently the Sonicaps are again much bigger than Bennic.
Undertow every time worth it? Good to know. I could fit the crossover in and the speakers were a lot more than $1k new about $4k+ but that would be the used value. Does it take them into $10 to $15k new value with a $1k in parts?
I am starting to demo Klipsch now on vinyl with the SS to hear if the difference is the same with SS or just tubes. |
I don't know about Linn speakers.. I honestly just put forward an example of a 1 k pair
Yeah sure I could see the linns if they are that good with better parts being on par with something in the 10 k range, why not? Thats all it takes, I mean speakers in my opinion from the range of somewhere in 1 or 2 k a pair up to 25,000 all have good drivers, anything in between is mostly effected with results from better cabinets and damping, and the crossover network or lack of network, so for sure the better a passive network, or NO passive network and running a full range driver, or Active crossover system as you are looking at should in fact be better. What amazes me about klipsch which I mentioned on another thread here is their new Palladium series.. For 20,000 dollars are WAY out of their element, and they use Bennic crossovers, I have seen the pictures of them, that speaker would destroy with a better network for sure, again it has to fit in the cabinet, and of course klipsch will only put in about 50 bucks a crossover not 500 because their profit is very high then. |
Undertow a little confused?
The new Klipsch Palladium series if the crossover is so weak what about the rest of the components? What exactly do you mean WAY out of there element? |
Yes the crossover is excessively weak for a 20 k speaker was my point... Klipsch making anything in that range might be way out of their element in my opinion :-) |
