Hi Raul
I think the results are similiar as Tempoelectric.
Both did not think the expensive v-cap that great. Tempo put the v-cap in Tier "E".
Tempo also put the Sonicaps in Tier "D" above the much more expensive oimp v-cap.
Tempo also said it was close to whether the Mundorf SIO was going down to Tier "C" so that would put it only one Tier above Sonicap. (at much greater cost than Sonicap)
So if you compare Sonicap to some of the Solens that Tempo wondered how a cap could sound that bad it is very good for the $.
I am going to put pics on of all the caps (if I can) so people who have not seen the size difference can understand what I am talking about. I have offended some with not waiting till 200 hours. (some are close to 50 now)
It is the dynamics I am talking about not smoothness. In all honesty not one cap is more dynamic after any hours so far. Yes smoother more open but not more dynamic. (not that I can tell) |
Stormen
There is no resistors in the "AA" Klipsch network.
There is one large inductor and one small one. Can you describe the changes in inductors. Many people talk about caps but not so much talk on inductors. Is that because old ones do not wear out like caps? With changing caps you can go better and they wear improvement compounds to a huge difference. With inductors (I understand) it would be just the qualitive improvement? |
Volleyguy
In my mind no chain is stronger than the weakest link. I believe the qualitive leap you get from using a good inductor with your lower range driver is equally important to a capacitor. And why shouldn't it be, an inductor is no more than a reversed capacitor, with a rising impedance versus rising frequencies... |
I put the Sonicaps back in to complete the breakin on them as I have disapointed some people with the test.
I did some measurements for some
Sonicap radius 8mm x31mm long
Supreme radius 13mm x50mm long
SIO radius 20mm x53mm long
So volume of caps are pie x radius2
Sonicaps volume 6230 cubic milimeters
Supreme volume 26533 cubic milimeters
SIO volume 66568 cubic milimeters
My problem has been not the poor sound of the Sonicaps or lack of detail but lack of dynamics.
Upon having them back in I first thought I might have been too critical. They are a BIG step down from my fav's Duelund/Supreme. I may have to move them up from last though.
I would say they are realitively smooth but flat in dynamics. The Supreme's are smoother but more importantly more dynamic. If it was my Linn speakers I may consider them but would likely go with Supreme's. |
First off I will shed a little light.. I have experience with just about every cap, minus the Duelands.. I can say easily Sonicap standard Gen II's are not the end all be all or near it, they do cost very little money though, I mean a 1 uF cap is what 7 bucks? They are decent, but much better in some electronics than speakers from my experience, however even in components will be handed a beating from some of the better caps.. They are very linear, but slightly dry, and are no question flat... But they also seem to exhibit a slight over raw enhancement, much like Dynamicaps, which are even worse in some critical applications if you don't want a lot of added peaks and valleys in your overall sonic soundscape don't use sonicaps or dynamicaps...
This is just my opinion in the limited applications I have tried... The mundorfs are Great, but still slightly overpriced, a more neutral and capable cap to an extent in my opinion is the Cardas golden reference, and the Sonicap platinum, but both in very small values and are pretty pricey... They take about 400 hours to open up, I ran them in a hi power TUbe application for about 2 weeks straight with cheap 2 dollar tubes to burn them in, and WHAT a difference.. Speakers will NEVER burn in a tube like power electronics until probably even 1000 or 2000 hours so get ready :-) |
Thanks Undertow
I was starting to wonder if I had been to harsh on the Sonicaps. They at 40+ hours now.
I still find them very flat. They are not offensive just not that great compared to the others.
I notice their faults even more now after hearing the Duelund/Supreme. At 40 hours they seem even farther behind.
I can say some might find them better than the vintage (worn out) caps if they prefer their "more correct" sound and do not mind their lack of dynamics.
I still find them below the old vintage caps (to me) and for sure the vintage caps were better before worn out.
When I did this with the caps I got what Tony Gee called the start of high end caps at a bargain price. The Sonicaps may be that, I'll take his word but they are NOT in the league of the better caps. (Duelund and the 2 Mundorf's)
From what I understand one can do much worse though some of the expensive caps seem to be rated no better.
I have not tried Cardas or will I at this point. |
Stormen
Thanks
You have given me something to think about. (inductors) I am ordering the midrange caps Monday and will see how that goes.
That is quite a read on Steen Duelund. Going to take awhile to digest this. |
Trying to put a number value on the cap difference.
I have never been a digital fan. All the tests so far are done on CD because I do not want to log hours on my cartridge. The two CD players I am using is a NAD (20 year old one) and a Linn Karik. (which I never thought was that great compared to vinyl)
Doing just the tweeter caps Duelund/Supreme about $400 both speakers. ($30 for Sonicaps) If it came down to a choice (of money on CD player or caps) the cap difference from Sonicap to Duelund/Supreme is at least 5x the difference from the two CD players. That is just doing the tweeter caps. I can not imagine what it will be when all is done!
It is just HUGE! In fact when the Duelund/Supreme was in it is the 1st time I have ever enjoyed digital. I only have the player for my wife and back ground music.
Money on caps (great caps) also is better money spent in the fact that all sources will be better.
I would like to hear some opinions on this but I think money on caps may be better money than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of??? |
After buying the Sonicaps a light went off in my head that it is the caps that made the Klipsch special, I always thought it was the horns.
Steen Duelund
"A passive network needs spacing, so use bottom and backside of the loudspeaker box for it the bigger the better. Also do not expect this important part to be cheap. I personally use more money on the dividing network than on the rest of the loudspeaker". |
Volleyguy
"I would like to hear some opinions on this but I think money on caps may be better money than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of???"
Without a shadow of a doubt. |
Still I feel using such costly parts on the poor old klipsch tweeters is a bit of a waist of funds. Replace it, use a good cap and be done. Trust me the tweeters are a very weak link and with what your spending on crossovers parts you could afford proper replacement tweeters. I disagree with money on caps is better than money spent elsewhere for if your loudspeakers where modern and of proper design changing the caps wouldnt make much diferance. Now your replacing parts that probly where out of spec since you dont have a mint stock klipsch to compare to your voicing these speaker to your own tastes room system keep this in mind. I wonder have you tested the old caps to see if they are realy out of spec? Also with loudspeakers transducer quality realy maters as does crossover, cabinet, finish, dampening etc. Its a total design if done right. I disagree with this statement [I think money on caps may be better money[spent] than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of] I would say treat your system like what it is a system not a colection of gear. Focusing on 1 aspect of a systems performance mostly leads to grief in the long term. |
My Linn speakers look very nice (like many other brands) but no doubt use cheap caps.
Steen Duelund (I am impressed with dedication to the hobby a throwback to the past)
"That is really what you get even from the expensive part of the market. No real innovations, none new ways, as if normal methods are the best - but designs and finish are very impressive. Sadly this is for the eyes not for the ears".
"It seems difficult to build loudspeakers, which are more than 2-way, if you search the market. What has been gained, by these simple 2-ways constructions concerning recreation of a convincingly holographic picture of sound is lost, when more ways are chosen. Just consider how much energy has been put into the two way systems, to make them full range. None of them reaches the goal".
"In theory more ways should lead to better results, but practise has shown it otherwise. Normal filters and components are insufficient".
JohnK will like this quote. (Steen seems to be a horn guy)
"With a well-constructed horn and a single loudspeaker, much can be achieved concerning experience, but full range and relaxing to listen to, it will never be. But they can be very spellbinding".
I commonly hear that freq cutoffs should be abrubt from one driver to the other and Steen feels exact opposite.
"In the literature youll find "the perfect filter" described as having linear response until a sudden abrupt cut-off. That is probably correct concerning telecommunication but it cant be more wrong with loudspeakers. There the cut-off must happen in a very gentle manner, so let us see, how this can be achieved".
Steen on caps (I feel somewhat vindicated now saying that the older caps were better. The Klipsch vintage caps when newer would kick the crap out of the cheaper plastic caps. The vintage caps simply no plastic and wayyyyy bigger. That being said the Duelund with no plastic is better than the vintage ever were. Anyone ever try the old Mica caps?)
I also feel somewhat vindicated about comments about the Sonicaps being just too small to do the job.
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)
Interesting on sound our brain uses 4 senses? Wow did not know that?
"The brain in reality uses four of its senses by an acoustical event: hearing, sight, somatic tough for lower frequencies and even the sense of smell simultaneously.
Reproduction of only sound in a room creates problems for the brains treatment of sound missing two stimuli, as Ill rule out the smell".
Steen on loudspeaker cost relative to system.
"The price of the loudspeaker should mirror the price of the rest of your gear as almost equal. The reason is simple the more quality gained from the electronic parts the more handwork must be invested in the mechanic/acoustical unit. A good loudspeaker has no easy way despite the manufacturers advertising of "The simpler- the better". It only for them is better and of course easier and cheaper".
That one is interesting for me as my Klipsch with cheap CD player (vintage Fisher tube amp) outperforms the expensive Linn gear with the cheaper (slightly) Linn speakers. Linn has always said source is the most important and Steen takes issue with that, saying 50% of the system cost should be in the speakers and I tend (even as a Linn fan) agree with Steen. |
Dear Volleyguy: Now that you are trying and give it time to the Sonicaps it will be good that you listen to the Sonicaps at a little higher volume ( due to its lower distortion ) maybe 2-3db higher than the Mundorf/Duelund and see what you hear.
Due to its low price it would be not a bad idea to buy the Sonicaps for the midrange too.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Raul
I am not buying any more Sonicaps. I do just listen to one speaker so adjusting the volume is not a problem.
I am at about 40-45 hours on the Sonicaps and my opinion is now much lower on them. I find that in Audio you notice the going down even much more than the going up.
I just put them back in to make sure I was not being to critical.
I do want to sell the Sonicaps would you like them? Half of the ones I have are brand new.
I will likely not hit the hours on the Sonicap needed to be fully broke in. They are wayyyyy out of the league of the other caps. (and the originals) |
JohnK
I would have agreed on the tweeters until the Duelund's went in.
Bob Crites says he has tested thousands of caps this age and all were out of spec. I have not tested mine but did hear them go bad a couple of years ago.
I am not focusing on one aspect just trying to bring it back to at least OEM. According to Steen Duleund 50% of the cost of the speaker should be in the dividing network. Well Khorns cost almost $4k in 1980. So in theory $2k of the retail should be in the crossover network. (1980 dollars)
I can assure you John that fronting even a vintage Klipsch tweeter with 2 $7 caps is crazy! Fronting the speakers with two $30 is much better and a $30 Mundorf and a $140 Duelund is a even bigger jump.
I am treating the system as a system that is why I made sure the new caps had to be at least as good as old ones. I am not trying to create a weak link with cheap caps. |
I forgot to put volume size of the vintage caps and Duelund
Vintage is
53mm length 32 width 50mm high (at least 40mm before rounding)
for a total volume of 84,800mm (somewhat less as cans are rounded)
They are between 64,000cubic mm and 84,800 cubic mm say 75,000. (app)
The Duelund's are
90mm long 45mm wide 9mm high
36,450 cubic mm. |
Volleyguy
"Steen Duelund (I am impressed with dedication to the hobby a throwback to the past)"
He was quite an enigmatic character on the Danish diy scene.
You'll find some more info here:
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/files/duelund/duelund.html
www.steenduelund.dk
|
Thanks Stormen I will check that out as well.
The last one I could only understand his writing the math I do not have a clue!
I did find interesting his 50% of the system speakers because he thinks they are the weak link and within the speaker 50% in the dividing network. So if one had a 10k system (which is not hard today at all!) a full $2500 should be in the speaker crossover!
To me that sounds like a lot of dough in the crossover. I bet most are nowhere near that. But like Steen says people like shining cabinets with fantastic finish on them. You don't see crossovers you only hear them.
I had a buddy just e-mail today who had his phono stage sent back to Germany to install Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil and you would think he had gone to heaven! He had Supreme's. So caps are huge.
JohnK and I are in complete agreement about not going overboard in one area of a system. What we are off a little on is how much you have to spend to do it. I only started out to be as good as (worn out) OEM or better and that Duelund/Supreme is the point where I am not missing the old caps in anyway. |
I agree loudspeakers are the most important part of the system. As far as 50% cash for crossover 50% rest is just crazy. If I followed this 50% rule my loudspeakers would be the worse off for it. A crossover can not make a poor transducer into a great 1. Cabinet transducers and crossovers must all be designed to be a whole. Using crazy costly parts in crossovers is not the best way. Your getting the sound you want but your results are not of as of much use to others as you think. Steens wrong about loudspeaker design sure I use mostly 1st order gental slopes but I have use for stepper cut offs just depends on designs end goal no one way to build a loudspeaker. Sure its harder to design multiway loudspeakers but 3-4 -5 ways can be needed depending on design goals. I also disagree with the horn quote[With a well-constructed horn and a single loudspeaker, much can be achieved concerning experience, but full range and relaxing to listen to, it will never be. But they can be very spellbinding] I have designed constructed full range single driver loudspeakers also full range horn systems these loudspeakers are definatly relaxing to listen too. Well maybe the cap manufacters just dont want you to buy or DIY a loudspeaker without crossovers. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " I think the results are similiar as Tempoelectric. " +++++
Not exactly because the Tempo people speaks on Sonicaps on Electronics and the person on the link I posted rated on speaker croosover. Two very different applications with different " needs ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " I did some measurements for some ..." +++++
the size is not the critical subject on quality performance and here you can't compare not only because its designs are totally different but ( for example ) the Mundorf are rated at 1200VDC against 200VDC on Sonicaps, if the Sonicaps were designed on 1200VDC its size will be bigger but like I say it is not important.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
There are a few credible builders who have observed that when all things are equal(same cap type and capacitance value)a large/higher-voltage version sounded better than a small/low-voltage version. However, when comparing different types of caps, size would seem to be of little importance. |
Volleyguy
I am going to tell you this as I spoke once to the designer of sonicaps.. He literally states that the first 50 hours on a sonicap is okay, but at 50 hours is MUCH MUCH WORSE!!! Almost unlistenable in some applications. Then goes on to say they will be on the upswing again and probably start to get where they need be at 250 hours...
That being said I have had some with 300 plus on them, they are not a bad cap at all.. Not perfect but not bad, and yes were rather flat at times without really good dynamic contrasts... But I am not defending this, Just funny as about 2 years ago I was told this from the horses mouth so to speak..The designers exact statements were at 50 hours they turn for the worst unlike most caps. Why? How? Who knows... I can say the do get a bit sweeter and more separated over time.. Again we are talking about an average of 10 to 15 bucks a cap so don't expect the fullest mundorf experience..
I can say the sonicaps are better than any of this (Kimbercrap) or (Auricrap) caps that use to be about 3 bucks a capacitor and in the last 4 years gone up to 16 bucks a cap due to some popular manufacturers using them! They really suck, and maybe some applications are quite good, but I have not had that experience.
Oh and again burning in any of these caps in speakers will never really approach the level they get with using them in powered electronics from what I have found. |
JohnK I do think Steen thinks a speaker should be designed as a whole as well. I do think by his writing's that he feels most speaker manufacture's are "under" spending on caps and over spending on finish so that it "looks" better. Steen is clearly on the audiophile side and likely could care less what the speaker looks like. (I also know most manufactures af course care about looks-sales)
Johnk my results of course are based on a fairly expensive speaker. The internals of a lascala and Khorn are of course the same and the Khorn from the era was 4k (in 1980 dollars) So I feel (and can hear) using a $7 cap (likely $2 in 1980 dollars) is crazy on the cheap side one a 4k speaker! Now I do agree maybe the second Duelund sounds better but it was not a shocking difference the first was, so maybe I am reaching the point of putting more in is dimishing return and money could be better spent elsewhere. But the first Duelund in the tweeter was a bigger jump than from my pre-amp that was 1.5k to 4k. (same company) I had to do that one 6 or 7x before I could hear exactly what the difference was. The Duelund was pick my jaw up from the floor in 15 seconds. (and one Duelund was only $130x 2 for each speaker)
JohnK I do agree with you just maybe at a different point as to what is crazy. Would Duelund's 4k caps each be worth it??? No way not to me! I could improve a lot of stuff a long ways before I would ever spend that kind of money. (even if I had it)
I think why Stormen and I feel the improvement in the crossover may be better than any other area is because it might be the weakest area. Let's say someone has a 5k source 5k pre-amp 5k amp then it all runs through a $7 cap! To me that is crazy as ALL the sound goes through those devices! They are then the weak link. The trick is finding where that balance point is? I found "shocking" improvements all the way to 1 Duelund/Supreme after that it was like the pre-amp. It would take me a few listens to tell if it is better and how much. |
Undertow I am not saying Sonicap is bad at all! This is some stiff competition! Duelund is argueably the best on the planet and Mundorf Supreme is used in B&W top speaker (and the top audiophile cap for volume) and Mundorf Silver in Oil is on everyone's favourite list. Even the vintage are oil filled caps and are part of the reason we see oil caps coming back today! There are a lot of people who search out (and pay big bucks for vintage oil caps) and even Steen Duelund is a fan of some vintage caps. |
Volleyguy
Actually I was again not defending them, just sharing an interesting tid bit I was given on sonicaps... Believe me, I don't use them in the end either so that was not really my point.. Plus to be honest, sonicaps don't mix well with other caps, use all sonicaps seems the only way to make them perform their best, also sonicap platinums are really good as like a small bypass cap, so they can mix. |
Thanks Undertow
Where I am having a tough time is dividing up the 13uf for the midrange neither Mundorf of Duelund makes a 13uf so it has to be divided. Duelund does make a 3uf and both make a 10uf. I feel Duelund is the sound I like but Supreme does very little to mess it up and is very inexpensive. This is a tough one. Thought about 3uf Duelund and 10uf Supreme but is that enough Duelund. Any other combo does not work out to 13 uf. Duelund does make both but again this is costly! I have thought about 6.8 Duelund and 6.0 Mundorf. I do not know how I can change this cheaply??? if wrong? |
I have went through all the combo's again and still come back to same pairing. Duelund/Supreme. I find it hard to understand how one Duelund makes things so great but the second does not improve things at all.
What Tempo has said to me rings so true is mixing caps. This NEVER dawned on me. I thought it only to be a cost thing.
The Duelund brings things to "life" and the Supreme makes it smooth full and musical.
Duelund/Duelund tilts the sound like SIO/Supreme.
The only thing I may change it the order.
Duelund/Supreme
maybe to
Supreme/SIO
Duelund/Duelund (unless break in calms things down) |
Volleyguy
You are looking for a tuff call on that one.. I have in klipsch horns used exactly a 6.8 and 6.2 stacked of the same brand and ended up with much better result than splitting them up with 2 different brands or using one of lets say 11 uF and 2 uF to get the same end value... If you are buying a duelund that large and costly, well yes you are going into a "Peace of mind" issue that can not be solved even if it does sound great.. Plus the midrange is going to be even more critical in my opinion over the tweeter.. however you have knocked down the edge of that speaker already with the mundorf/duelund combo.. I hate to say it, but money wise, and performance wise, I would not stick anything on your mid horn but a stack of the mundorf only, meaning a 6.2 and a 6.8 and you will probably hear no more than a 5% difference for way less money than a duelund combo... Leave it on the tweeter, but also you don't need either of these caps on your Woofer, it should be parallel and have much less effect, but if its cost effective and you can get a mundorf supreme as a direct size replacement on your woofer go for it, BUT you woofer will benefit 10 TIMES more with replacing just the inductor on it with a Alpha Core 12 gauge copper ribbon inductor.. The cap has way less effect in this case, but even a solen cap for 2 dollars can sound great with the big inductor feeding your woofer. |
Thanks Undertow
Yes I too think the midrange even more critical than tweeter. In the tweeter of course the caps are in series and the midrange would be in parallel.
I may go next to the inductor.
You find that to make that much difference? I was looking at an Alpha Core 12 guage you mentioned a Mundorf 12 guage or maybe a Duelund.
I am confused with the Supreme on the woofer? We have a 2.5mghz inductor and no cap on the woofer?
Are you saying a better inductor made the highs sound better and Alpha core was better than original? |
Undertow if I understand what you are saying the inductor made more difference than caps? to you? or is the vintage Klipsch inductor not that good?
I know it is iron core and some kind of wrapping. What is the quality of their inductor? |
First off if your woofer has no cap thats even better, secondly YES an inductor mainly on the woofer alone will make a great deal of difference, caps not so much... You will get better more solid response and you will swear your speaker goes up another 3 db from like 98 to 101 db if you put that inductor on the woofer.. I guess the mundorf inductor is fine, but was not aware they existed? The duelunds look killer, but man they gotta be a ridiculous amount of money, I would go alpha core the big ones... You don't have a mghz inductor by the way its 2.5 mH, which is Milli henry as the measurment... That is a pretty large and VERY heavy in weight inductor by the way.. On your woofers will open them up like niagra falls so your bass response will be pretty highly increased...
As for inductors on your mids and highs, yes new inductors like the 14 gauge alpha cores would be far superior to the iron core cheapy ones on them now from the 70's, however inductors are more or less going to be more accurate buying new ones, not necessarily night and day difference on the horns overall like the caps, its the reverse for woofers, it will be a night and day difference with better inductors on the woofers, but caps are less critical on the woofers as long as they are the accurate value for the most part, in your case even better you don't need them at all! As a matter of fact you might find your favorite overall upgrade to that speaker is the inductor on the woofer all together, your integration with the mid driver will be that much more lush and dynamic.
Again unless your building outboard crossovers which I highly suggest, you might have a problem fitting and mounting a 2 lb weight inductor inside... they are not that cheap either your gonna be about 60 to 70 bucks each for that value I believe in the Goertz alpha core copper ribbon 12 gauge. |
By the way see link below... This is the last outboard and full upgraded version of klipsch speakers I did for a friend of mine.. I have done K-horns, cornwalls, and reference series by outboard premium crossovers in the past, you will see that using all premium parts like this make your original crossovers look like matchbox cars! These were only 2 way klipsch by the way, so no midrange circuit which is even more complicated, costly, and sizeable.. You will see the horn board was separate of the woofer board, and then they were stacked on top of each other to save some space and built into an enclosure which still ended up about 8"X 10"X 6" and next to some pretty large TUbe amps sitting in one pic with them hooked up you can see the comparison, they get rather large.... Good luck, and those caps and inductors are the sizes you are using, same physical sizes...
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103108.aspx?PageIndex=1 |
Volleyguy,
Duelund will make up a capacitor to any value you require. Have to spoken to Frederik?
The value of spending big bucks on the Duelunds comes with having a minimum number of caps, inductors, resistors in the path of the signal.
I have my woofers wired directly to the speaker terminals (no caps or inductors), with 1 Duelund cap (40uF) before the Mid/Woofer and 1 Duelund cap (5.6uF) before the tweeter.
When you add further caps and/or inductors, the purity and value of the Duelunds are diminished. |
I am just rebuilding to original specs and the "AA" network uses a 2.5mz inductor and 13uf (cap) on the midrange and 2 (2uf caps) on the tweeter. There is also one more small inductor as well. That's it there is no more parts than that.
(well the autoformer) |
I have e-mailed partsconnextion to find out about caps in parallel to see if that works?
Also on the Alpha core inductor. They are almost $70 which is not bad compared to $300 (I think) for Duelund. Mundorf does sell inductors but from another company. I never hear people talk about the brands as inductors making a difference just whether air core/iron core etc. |
Did talk to partconnextion and they said parallel caps are better than series. Now just to pick (guess) at cost effective combo. |
Not sure what that means parallel caps are better than in series? I think you mean parallel caps are not as critical and you can buy at much better prices than ones in series.. Series caps are very critical, parallel not really.. So you can save some cash just using one of decent sonic signature with the correct value on your mids if they are in parallel only..
I would still go ahead and run with the mundorf supremes since they are more than premium enough cap for your application, and you seem to be spending that kinda money anyway.. as for your tweeter your hearing the duelund because it is in direct path (series) of feeding that horn and does ultimatley in that application give you the signature of the sound. |
Undertow I will post Chris's response from partsconnextion.
CAPs in parallel sound even better......they reduce the ESL and ESR of the
combo.
Sincerely,
Chris Johnson, President |
Oh well simply stating the application itself being in parallel will have less effect on the sound, so in a way we are agreeing.. But that does not mean the quality of cap is as critical, because basically it should have less effect on the final sound is the point.. Series are worse and thats because you are forced to use them in a position totally effecting the output, and why you found the duelunds to be better as they are probably just better having the burden of that location. |
Wait a minuet, we might be confusing Parallel! You mean parallel as in the Circuit parallel, meaning one end of the Cap is on the positive tap of the amp and one on the negative tap of the amp? Or Parallel meaning using DOUBLE caps stacked parallel to equal the final value needed, if so then yes higher grade caps to bypass could be better, or 2 of equal quality in parallel for the earlier example a 6.8 and a 6.2 making a 13 uF stack yes is using 2 caps in parallel but that is not the same as Parallel in the circuit diagram.. |
I just talked to Chris on the phone and he thought the Duelund should be bigger and bypassed with a smaller amound Mundorf. They really recomend using two caps to stop the Sonic signature. He of course could not comment on the Duelund/Supreme in this case.
Undertow you are right though getting the midrange is even more important. I am still thinking 3uf Duelund and 10uf Mundorf.
I think I might put in the Sonicap while I guess which is the best combo for mids. I have a 13uf sonicap already here.
Now no vintage caps left in circuit. |
Yes I mean two caps in parallel to total 13uf yes stacked together. |
Oh okay, well yes 2 in parallel the way you speak would be better explained as a Bypass stack, or "Batteried" together.. Parallel in the circuit is a different thing, and normally this is how the cap is with the woofer which you don't have anyway, and again could be a cheap cap in most cases with basically no huge difference.. Anyway thats where I got confused with the terminology.. I can agree that a stack making up 13uF is fine, and yes has some advantage over a single cap simply for voltage rating going up, and or better conduction using dual input and output 18 gauge leads etc
however in your case I really doubt you could justify it being better necessarily one way or the other, I would still look into maybe seeing if mundorf or duelund could save you money and get a custom value 13 uF single if you really want to push this. |
I am actually suprised from all your trials here you have not considered the Audio note caps? Copper versions are a bit cheaper than the Duelunds even.. Maybe a stack of those on your mids would do the trick, getting right in between the mundorf/duelund combo on top... I am curious about these myself... I have seen in a few cases they say Audio note is the superior cap to all, including the V-caps and Duelunds in various applications. |
Undertow
I would have considered Audio Note if I had some reviews on them from others. Both Tempo and Tony Gee just had not reviewed them. They may be great. (built by Jensen as well like Duelund I believe)
I had to stick to a few brands for financial reasons.
One thing I did notice that was not much talk about was dynamics. When I put the Sonicap in the midrange again I had thoughts of is this all worth it. They tend to sound not defective but not exciting. Only AFTER I had bought the caps did I read stuff like from Steen that the bigger the cap the better. (all things equal) Now I know why even caps that don't sound bad (like the Sonicap) if they were only two or three times bigger they would be more dynamic. Of course that would end the Sonicap cheap price/performance ratio.
This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before. It is not something that stands out and yells at you (like a bright cap) or a cap that tilts the sound one way or another. You will notice that the music is just not as interesting. The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison.
JohnK I know you think crazy money on caps is not proper spending but I do know the fastest way to kill a speaker is with cheap caps. JohnK if 50% of the speaker on the dividing network is too much what do you think is the proper balance? Of course I understand if you could get the cap that sounded best for $1 that would be the way to go. But I do not believe you can and more expensive caps are often bigger and have more reserves.
JohnK I am curious where you think is the proper point of spending in this case? Which caps and what kind of $? |
The size of the mid caps
Vintage is (can type rounded edges)
95mm long x 52mm wide x 32mm high
Total mm3 158,080 (somewhat less for rounded corners)
Sonicap
14mm radius x 50mm long so
30,772 cubic mm
Supreme (from website as I do not have the caps)
10uf (supreme caps)
18mm radius x 106mm long
107,840 cubic mm
3.3uf cap
15mm raius x 56mm long
39,564 cubic mm
For a total of 147,404mm3
So a Supreme is roughly 5x as big as a Sonicap and likely slightly bigger than the different style vintage cap. (rounded corners taken off)
So is it a wonder that Supreme's sound more dynamic??? I know some say you can not use that but both Mundorf Supreme's and Sonicaps are similiar style and you pay for what you get.
To me they sound similiar but much more dynamic. (the Supreme's)
To people who read this in the future if you go to small on your caps you get this feeling the cap sounds like a filter. |
Trying to assess the Sonicaps in the midrange and they are massively undersized! Wayyyyyy below the level of the vintage. I am using this to figure out how much Duelund/Supreme to get. I can not believe how flat they make the sound. The difference is even bigger than the tweeter caps made. The vintage caps in the tweeters showed their age more than midrange. So now it is all negative with the Sonicaps. (except their is a slight less drone)
JohnK I am wondering on your Fisher rebuild did you use good caps? If they used cheap caps like this I can see why it did not sound good!!!
I will be putting in the order tonight. Here goes guessing. |
Ok, I can't take it anymore. This thing about cap size and it's relation to the sound is complete garbage. Rauliruegas
explained the reason for the size differences, but like a lot of good advice offered to you here, such as burn in time, you choose to ignore it.
There is a right way and a wrong way to go about what you are trying to accomplish, so far you're going about it the wrong way. |
Merganser
Not one cap has changed one bit in dynamics in break in. (that I can hear)
Can you tell me the right way then? Please do not say the lousy dynamics will somehow change at some magical hour of break in.
So are you saying that the MUCH bigger same type a cap Mundorf which has much better dynamics right out of the box is not because it is a much bigger cap?
Why is it only Sonicap that is sooooo flat? Are they special compared to others with break in. I am half way to 100 hours and after the first 5 hours I can not tell the difference. Even then the Sonicaps have not become more dynamic. |
