For guys waiting to hear about the CAST caps they are still coming. I have talked to partsconnexion and they will let me know when in. Put the stereo back to vintage tube amp and vintage mid cap and Duelund tweeter. By far the best combo I have. (in fact don't like any other combo)
Very excited about the CAST caps. It will be almost a month later this week. I know the caps take several days just to make.
Expectations are to have MUCH less resonance than the vintage and more detail as they are copper as opposed to aluminum in the vintage. This is likely the most excited I have been about an audio product coming. I am also curious as to how much better the highs will get. Right now the signal goes through the vintage and then to Duelund. I expect improvement there just because noise will not be added by the vintage caps. The Duelund is not better though with Mundorf (mid cap) than vintage. (the plastic effect of Mundorf seems to overwhelm the quieter cap)
I will also post on the difference that I find in the tweeter caps from VSF and CAST. I have enough to run one speaker with CAST tweeter caps as well. I have been told it won't be as big a difference as from the vintage to VSF. (CAST vs VSF) I would expect not and am prepared for that. (as the VSF is already excellent) |
http://www.duelundaudio.com/News.asp just to tide you over, untill you get your caps. |
Stormen those are huge! Can not even imagine how much they cost!
Stormen will I be able to tell the difference from VSF and CAST? Underow (I think) thought I may be into the point of dimishing returns. I wish they would just hurry up and get here.
Looking forward to it. What would you discribe the difference to be? (from VSF)
Another question how long did yours normally take to get built? Just shy of a month now. I know they just got back from holidays when my order was in. |
They normally take 5-6 weeks if they are a standard value. Longer for special values. |
Hooked back up the turntable into the vintage amp and it seems quite good.
Not sure what I did the first time. Maybe it was not grounded right as it was noisy and now it is not at all.
Hooking back up the main system which has not even been running. (and not really missed) |
After hooking back up the LP12 into the vintage system I remembered why I love it.
I admit to being somewhat confused when I first got vintage tube amp and Duelund's in tweeters. The Lp12 did not sound good and digital did? I never felt that way before! The vintage amp has the seductive midrange but the extreme's (for sure bottom end) is maybe lacking. The Karik for sure is not as alive as the LP12.
So now things returning to normal as I prefer the turntable again in both systems. I have to admit though tubes do make digital much better as I thought the Karik was awful before. (in the all Linn system compared to LP12 it still is)
I find this audio interesting why so many guys will get a whole system based on what they like and then sell it all off and go in another direction. What causes that boredom? or do we start to hear something with some set of chacteristics we now like better?
It would be much cheaper to be like my daughter listening to a horrific digital download on the DVD player through the TV speakers and she thinks it sounds good! She doesn't hear the phasy sound.
5 weeks and counting should be soon according to what the guys are saying. |
Good news the capacitors have been shipped. Right on the 6 weeks guys were saying.
I know some guys are wondering about the caps and what is the difference from VSF and CAST. Should get an idea very soon.
I can say I am becoming Duelund ruined. You don't even want to listen to anything else. I do not want to hear the Linn speakers or the vintage cap Klipsch speaker. I know FOR SURE my favourite is the partial Duelund speaker and even one speaker is better than listening to the other system with two. Time has not worn out the Duelund effect.
What I am going to do is go to the high end store when this is done to hear there speakers again. I live fairly close to a store with systems of 100k+++. The Duelund makes my Linn speakers sound broken. I just want to make sure they are not. The store has top end tube gear and top Dynaudio and VPI HRX's and the top SME turntables as well. |
After this project is done I am thinking of doing a rebuild of the Linn speaker crossover. I read on the Duelund site there is a link back to Audiogon with a another guy who was shocked at what Linn used for crossover parts. I just want to say in Linn's defense it is not just them but most mass producers of speakers use shockingly cheap parts.
When this started months ago I did not even know if spending on Sonicaps was worth it. Now I have no higher priority than crossover parts. I never thought that would happen. |
Volleyguy
Shipped to who? You or just from duelund to partsconnexion? |
Undertow
No I think they left Denmark on Monday. They are not to me yet. By the weekend would be nice but will see. I think they fly them over as parts said it does not take long. |
Yeah well I have had the run around for about 3 weeks now.. They first said they shipped on the 1st, than that they left the 10th(friday) or something, now they say finally they shipped this last couple days and they were to be in yesterday or today, still nothing... Not sure if they are just stringing everyone along to make it look like its on the other side being the issue, and know its a very expensive order so trying to make it seem like some kinda customer service, they could not even come up with what carrier they use to get them from denmark, or tracking #, nothing, or just flat out can't get them because of customs or something.. I have been reading canada is seriously backed up at the border, so who knows. I wish there was a distributor in the states, now we gotta wait to ship them back thru customs into the states all over again... |
Hmmmm interesting Undertow? You are waiting for resistors or caps? This is the first time I have even heard they were coming.
My e-mail Wednesday said they were shipped Monday and we should see them Wednesday or Thursday. No word. I am mostly concerned about how they sound not how fast they get here as I will have them for 20+ years. (I hope) |
I did not order the cast caps.. Which I would figure are the longest... I ordered just over 2 months ago for the VSF's... So yeah its been a very difficult cap to get obviously, I was told by partsconnexion that if I wanted to order I would need to do it right then, which was like August 5th because they were putting in one big order for a bunch of customers at once to get it done faster and ship all in one.. Well obviously that made no difference, they probably waited a couple more weeks and such others that finally ordered like your casts etc... finally pushed them to put the order in I guess. |
That's interesting Undertow and a bit concerning? Sure makes me wonder if something else is going on? Making by hand is a tough job to quote. It is interesting as I imagine after the price increase sales would have dropped dramatically at least I would have expected that.
They may have waited for my order as well as more. My original order was in late July. (before the price increase) I was just allowed to add to the order. At first I was ordering just one cap of CAST to try because I did not know how much (if any) better they would be. Since it was a one shot deal meaning I could not order at the old prices after original order was complete I got the CASt's now.
I am Ok with the time as I know the VSF's are worth the wait so I assume CAST is as well. I just figured (maybe hoped) they were taking their time knowing there are people waiting to hear the differnce from CAST and VSF. I believe I will be the only one on the net who is not from a company who will be talking about them in camparison. (which is only a tweeter comparison)
I know there are people who have had both but I am not aware of there comments. I was only nervous that CAST would somehow not be as good as VSF. It does happen in other companies where not always the most expensive is their best. I know many like some of the cheaper Mundorf's over Gold/Silver.
From what I have read CAST does not change the sound just better damping so even quieter. That I have got to hear. I have been told that not to expect the jump to CAST like it was from vintage. I fully expect that as in all Audio the diminishing return. (and the VSF is already at a VERY high level)
Speaking of people watching this link is now over 10k hits. |
Volleyguy I see..
Well not sure on my math here, but you have now been waiting actually 3 months for those caps if you ordered at the end of july, not 5 weeks as you stated earlier. Thats a big difference, so obviously this issue is quite a bit longer at this point. |
Well my intial order went through end of July which is now 2 1/2 months. They never started those caps as the owner was on his honeymoon with his wife. He was back late Aug when the order was put through with the added parts. Which is now exactly 7 weeks.
I had to cut some slack for the owner who now just married. So since in Europe they shut down for a month and maybe large orders went through and could be causing this to take longer than thought. (normal is 6 weeks on the CAST so I understand) So I am just one week longer than normal. |
Well hopefully they come thru at some point.. Thats all we can say now! |
I did just talk to partsC and they say the rest of the back order is coming and may be here today. Apparently they have got a shipment in the couple of weeks. (just not ours) I guess there resistors sell very well. I did have someone on the board (e-mail me) who has got resistors recently. It is a small company and hand built is not like turning on a machine. I am wayyyy more hopeful/concerned on the sound then how long they take. From my point of view I have owned these speaker 27 years so far and am thinking long term. That is why I am spending more on the CAST even though they may not be that much better. I hope to amortize that cost over 20+ years. CAST likely would not make sense to a person who changes speakers all the time. Unless of course they have much deeper pockets than mine.
I am the odd guy in audio who would likes to keep equipment for a long, long time. |
Yes I was contacted about the resistors as wellÂ… Even though expensive for a resistor 15 bucks is still easily going to sell more than 500 per pair of capacitors for sure! And many more are willing to take the (non) refundable risks if they don't like the 15 dollar resistor over a custom set of capacitors that will be worthless and very expensive if you decided not to use them. So its pretty simple to see the popularity difference and why they would sell many more duelund resistors in partnership with some 30 dollar mundorf caps vs. people taking a huge chance on probably the second most expensive made capacitors in the world :-) You gotta be as nuts as us to even consider it! |
Good Point.
The second most expensive?? Is there one crazier? |
Do you mean the Silver CAST? You know what I never really considered that? Not that I could afford it but just seems crazy to me. I would have a ton of stuff to put money into before Silver CAST.
I can say even the new high prices for the VSF's (Copper) I would still pay for sure for the tweeters. They are well worth it. I will know shortly on what this means for mid range.
In fact I am still so smitten with Duelund I would likely look to Aluminum VSF if cost was and issue still for the tweeters before I dropped down to another range. I would love to hear Tony Gee on Aluminum against other people's best. |
I believe still the king of top expense is the Audio note silvers starting at like 1800 or something each in low values, I could be wrong. |
Undertow
They are both about the same price with the Duelund being somewhat more in bigger values. Not that that is anything to brag about! Both are crazy and I never condsidered either, but I am not convinced on that much value of silver. |
http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1220501771.jpgVolleyguy and Undertow, while you wait for your Duelunds, see the size of the single caps for my speakers on the above link. Most of the hand crafting for Duelund is done by outside contractors and suppliers so Duelund is at their mercy. Be patient, the wait is worth it. |
Halcro
What values are those? |
Halcro any experience with the CAST??? I know the VSF is excellent but the CAST is just unknown to me? |
The large capacitor is 44uF whilst the smaller one is 5.6uF.
The drive unit pictured is a 5 1/4" Scanspeak Mid/Woofer which the 44uF crosses to at 950Hz whilst the Tweeter crosses at 4750Hz.
I could have bought the Cast capacitors instead of the VSF, but at the time there was no independent evidence of their benefits over the VSF except for Duelund's own advice. I just didn't want to risk it? |
I think to gain the benefits of the cast would need to be really critical applications... Main thing is that duelunds caps are so huge you would never build an entire crossover inside the speaker anyway in most cases and end up with them in a separate enclosure, which I start to see even less advantages in the tone aspect buying the cast over the vsf in my. Man I can't believe even the 5.6 is that huge! |
Halcro you say at the time there was no independent advice on the CAST over VSF. Is there now? I have not seen any?
I sure hope you guys are wrong on the no benefit of CAST. (no offense)
Undertow I sure hope it is not a critical application only to notice the benefit of CAST. I remember some guys saying the Duelund VSF was a waste and I have found it to be a huge jump from Mundorf and I would not call my system critical. In fact in my mind Mundorf has more in common with Sonicaps and cheaper caps than it does with Duelund.
I have been a (total) convert to Steen's thinking that the crossover is the most critical component of the system. That is the reason I have got the CAST. I NOW realise just how critical the crossover is. Now have I gone overboard??? Maybe? but I can say I have listened to more digital since I got the Duelund than in the last 20 years. Sometimes I pinch myself and say this is digital!
I would rate the tweeter caps as the BEST new money I have ever spent on gear, biggest improvement.
Now will the CAST be worth the extra??? I do not know but at least we should give Duelund a chance. Stormen said some guys found the VSF to sound a little rough compared to the CAST. I know I can not imagine that either. |
Point being I believe that the 2% more you may or may not hear with Cheaper drivers in a far simpler 1st or second order crossover its just not complex enough to spend 100% more or something for a very slight window of difference.. I am sure the VSF is a world class cap and in most cases is the true ceiling for the point of diminishing returns.. Again to me a critical application for a cap would be in a Full range electronic piece running the entire frequency range, or VERY complex multi driver type line array speaker..
But remember the cast was more or less developed to close the gap in the extreme case and really was more designed to overcome the lower voltage applications of the VSF.. The cast simply can take more power, my application and most other speakers especially being in the 90 db to 100 db efficiency range will never see that kinda power stress. You have to pick and choose your battles somewhere, my cutoff was at a point that the caps outweight cost and the performance of the possibilities in a speaker design themselves. |
Oh and partsconnexion did ship my parts today finally, they will be in tomorrow for installation.. My crossover is simple and uses only a 1.75 uF cap on the first leg of my horn.. Should be a sweet result I think :-)
If I was running a 1000 watt mono block, with a 85 db really Hi grade driver system in a more exotic speaker I could see where the Cast could come into play... |
I just talked to parts and my order is in as well.
It seems there was some confusion with the CAST mid caps. I have only (and I say only) VSF for the midrange and two CAST tweeter caps coming. All in all this is Ok. Of course they are cheaper and as you guys say am I may be at the point of diminishing returns??? Maybe. At least I will be able to hear the CAST caps in the all critical tweeter section. Getting VSF's for the midrange does not make me afraid anyway!! Part of me was leary on the the CAST as you said unknown and if better how much better??? What scared me the worst was what if not as good?! I could deal with saying they were not worth the $ extra but what if worse! Scary thought!
I expect my order tomorrow or the next day as well.
My crossover works with the signal going through what will be the VSF mid cap and on to the CAST tweeter cap.
So I will be able to form an opinion on the difference and the value of the difference. |
I am sure the Cast are good and so are the VSF, I think they might sound a little different but probably not better or really preferable in certain given applications. But hey good luck, its a great cap I am sure, at this point no need to be concerned about it. |
That was a good point on the voltage. I of course do not need the high voltage. I wonder how much of the extra cost was due to that which is of no use to me.
I will be happy to be just done with this! Several months now of one speaker most of the time. This may sound strange but one really good speaker is better than two poor ones. Now two excellent ones this should be something. What I have noticed so far is you can hear around the instrument. Now feed those tweeters with a much quieter signal. Hmmm looking forward to it. |
Well again the Cast can take the heat so to speak.. The VSF would not be trusted in some high voltage applications.. The casing alone on the VSF seems to be a pretty much basic just get the job done, and its simple which is why I feel its very good to any speaker application the fancy finish on the Cast is for high voltage something Duelund did not focus on until now it seems..
Sometimes the more straight forward and natural the better I have learned.. No doubt the Cast is another level for the Esoteric, but at the same time the Esoteric sound is not one I seek, the VSF seems to get a little bit of a rep for a slight lean toward warmer and more open..
The cast might be a little more "Controlled" but I am looking for more relaxed especially with a horn, thats why I know the Duelund silver graphite resistors although well within price range to risk them will not work out as well for me as like the straight heavy duty new Mundorf Resistors that are super natural sounding, and only cost 1.20 each :-) |
Undertow & Volleyguy,
I asked Duelund for comments regarding your last posts on the technical differences between the CAST and VSF caps, this is the reply I got (my translation):
"While it is true, there is a marked difference between the CAST and the VSF (to our ears at least...) this has nothing to do with differences regarding VDC performance ie. the CAST is not inherently better at handling high DC or AC currents. To achieve that you need to look at either our VSF DC or CAST 630v variants as they employ more layers of paper between the foils.
The remark about the "casing" of the VSF being somewhat of an afterthought is off the mark. The cap being a waxdesign is after several days of vacuum impregnation capable of "holding" its own shape which we augment by using a special lacquer. The upshot of this is ofcourse that there is no resonating box around the cap a highly desirable trait in our opinion.
The CAST being an oil cap at heart is not able to hold its own shape as the raw cap is soft. We take advantage of this by squeezing it in the CAST proces meaning it gets as flat as we can make it. The CASTing layer then keeps it that way. But again this has nothing to do with the standard CAST being better at handling higher currents than the VSF. The design brief was primarily to create a cap that is even less prone to resonance than the VSF."
Me again:
Volleyguy,
When you get the CASTs be prepared for a very long break in period. I used them non stop for 14 days before I was anywhere close to the performance, I'm getting now. To my ears well above the performance of the VSFs. |
Stormen not sure you mentioned your application or sizes of cast caps your using? Can you enlighten what you did with the cast vs. the vsf?
Not sure, however they are for higher voltage.. Any cap is rated lower than it is from what I am told, for example duelund explained to me that the 200 volt rating for example is really capable of taking on 350.. Seems most caps virtually follow this.. however the cast are quite a bit higher at probably taking on about 800 to 850 volts.. Regardless its not really a point of the disscussion anyway, it was just simply stated that they made a higher voltage cap in which however the cast inherited the trait so be it.
Thanks |
They did it seems just in the past couple months come up with a higher voltage VSF design, this is rather current however, and I think it changes in Tiers of capacitance however I could be wrong, and I was explained for example a 1 uF cap is only done in a 400 volt version. |
Stormen you are upsetting me. That quote of the CAST being quite a bit better than VSF? They made a mistake on my order and it would have taken 6-8 weeks to get CAST midrange caps. So I said just ship me the VSF's! I have two CAST tweeter caps (and two VSF tweeter caps previous order) and I am going to compare against each other. Now when you say the CAST is quite a bit better is that in the midrange as well??? I can see in the tweeter caps but even in the midrange? This is the question people have thought me nuts already and way past the point of diminishing returns. Then you go and say the CAST is THAT much better.
The order has been sent to me and I expect it tomorrow or the next day at the latest. I will likely never know what a midrange CAST cap sounds like. Now that the price has shot up. That is something I am hearing very little of that makes me wonder?? The CAST prices were once 50% more than VSF and now are 100% more. Which is why I ordered CAST in the first place based on old prices. Is it still worth the $ for CAST based on new prices?
Undertow my understanding of the CAST was not just about voltage but even lower resonance due to the high pressure construction. (lower resonance I just could not imagine and had to hear) It was the CAST that went up the most in price, much more than the VSF which is why I ordered (but only got some) CAST caps as they are now out of my range.
Undertow I am Ok if the VSF goes toward warm and open as I have horn speakers.
Stormen it sounds like Duelund says the CAST is basically a oil cap? Like the vintage ones I have?? (but of course with a massive reduction in resonance) Then maybe I do not understand the construction differences. The CAST as I thought them were the same as VSF except less resonance.
This is what confused me on the original order. The VSF sound like I did not know digital even could! So are they the ideal match for me even if they are less costly? Spending more money does not always mean better even for us audio nuts on the lunatic fringe!
Stormen on the breakin?? I do find the VSF to be sounding better today then when I got them but there was never any not wonderful sounding part of the break in except maybe first few minutes.
I do know Tony Gee has the CAST in for testing and it will be interesting if he ranks them a 14 or second to the VSF for whatever reason? |
My VSF caps instantly sounded pure, tranparent and very musical. They did not appear to 'break-in' very much after the first few days so I'm surprised by Storman's comments? |
Halcro mine did as well but (I think) sound even better now, again not much and nothing like the instant improvement they made. It sounds like the CAST may be a different beast.
Duelund does say the same thing as Stormen though about the CAST anyway.
Has anyone even heard of someone who did not like the VSF??? or liked another cap better? I have not heard of it.
Like I have said I think Steen will go down in Audio history. |
I know this is going to be hard to believe after all this time but the caps are here and the midrange cap is hooked up.
You guys ever notice the smell? They have this all natural smell. |
Just the first few hours on the mid range VSF Duelund with the well broken in VSF's om the tweeters.
Trying to get a handle on this.
This is not the same change as the tweeter caps. The first time I heard them (mid cap Duelund) my daughter was down here singing more than ever!
This is not the slam dunk that the tweeter caps were for two reasons.
The best cap I have here for the mid range was the original oil filled foil cap. It was miles better than the Sonicap and the Mundorf Supreme. The Sonicap I have sold long ago. The Mundorf sat here and I MUCH preferred the oil filled foil cap. Where in the tweeter cap all caps are much better than the originals.
I am going to have to go back and forth with the vintage and the Duelund VSF. Less resonance with the Duelund which I knew was in the vintage but it does sound harder???
The Duelund is not like the feeling I got with the Mundorf of falling in the ditch going what happened? But it is not all good either. As shocking as it sounds I could pull out the Duelund and put back in the vintage mid range cap?
The Duelund and vintage sound much more alike then any of the plastic caps.
Right now it is wayyyy closer than I ever would have guessed and so far it is still
1. Vintage for mid range.
2. Duelund VSF for mid range. (sounds rougher than the liquid filled vintage??? Shocked and not sure what is going on)
Then a long way down to
3. Mundorf Supreme (with the Russian PIO by pass)
4. Mundorf Supreme
5. Sonicaps
Tomorrow I will try the CAST with the vintage in the mid range. Also I am going to try the SS gear and analog (LP12) front end.
Somewhat concerned as every other cap I have tried the initial impression was similiar even after many hours and different gear combos. That will mean I will have spent a ton of money on little or no improvment. Something none of us ever wants. |
Volleyguy...
Again as a warning, my suggestion you have to really remember here you can only expect in some way to end up being as good as the speaker is... I would suggest since going this far you need to probably build outboard crossovers, re-wire with better cable internally, probably deaden the cabinets further, possibly some simple bracing, maybe putting new footing on the speaker via spikes or some other means of coupling or de-coupling to the floor...
I mean it is all critical in taking a design to the next transparency level, your kinda just taking the same old desert receipe and dumping more whip cream on it vs. changing the receipe a little. Again you were kinda warned about this and spending what you did without maybe addressing some other issues.
You will still need a far better INductor on your woofer to really open up, and you also have the issue of being into a more complex situation since this is a 3 way speaker your working with and the midrange is always the hardest in the design.
Good Luck |
Undertow
These speakers are made with a outboard crossover. You may be right with the whipped cream though.
The first whipped cream (Duelund tweeter capacitor) made the desert MUCH better. Maybe I was (incorrectly) thinking more whipped would be even better.
But what if it is a simple as digital going through a tube amp going through a liquid filled capacitor (the vintage one) took all the digital edge off? Like I said I had never heard ANY digital sound like that. I did not even believe my CD player could sound that good!
I am going to put the vintage back in the midrange and listen for a bit then put in the CAST tweeter caps. Might be interesting.
Undertow I was not just trying to improve my speakers part of it was maintanance. (28 year old caps) That is how the whole thread started. The speakers got noisy and I started with cheap plastic caps (Sonicaps) then Mundorf (ordered one Duelund just to see) and was shocked how they were all downgrades except the Duelund whose foil design match perfectly.
Back to the vintage in the midrange.
One thing for sure is foil caps sound very different (and better in my mind) than plastic. The Duelund and vintage sound much closer than any of the plastic caps to the foil.
Next putting in the CAST tweeter caps. |
I do understand that, I realize it was a "maintenance" type approach, however you spent more on a couple small pieces than the speakers were worth so might as well get some full benefits out of the time and experience of it. |
These threads can be good to get a bunch of guys opinions so that one does not lose their head in the process.
Yes I know once I spent on the crossover I was locked into the speakers. The all vintage crossover does sound like a worn out speaker though so the money was spent replacing worn out parts not just for change sake.
I have the CAST in the tweeters now. Things might be looking up there. Even right out of the box they sound very good! |
Listened to the Linn speakers today before the Klipsch. They have to go or be fixed!
Undertow I should not have made it sound like I was disapointed with Duelund. It is more I was shocked how good the vintage (mid cap) was/is in comparison to all.
You have and others have said about this being to much money in fairly cheap speakers. I find used Khorns to be quite expensive. Here is a 40 year old set for $4k!
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1227224990&/Klipsch-Klipschorn-1968-oiled-
What do you get for that?? Even if one loved Klipsch sound these caps are 40 years old and I know for sure my 28 year old tweeter caps are shot and how long before the mid caps are gone if not? So for $4k you have to buy (in my mind) Duelund caps new wiring. So you are going to have $7k into a set of 40 year old speakers. That is not cheap in my mind. I see say Linn's Akurate 242 for less than $5k.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1228163709&/Linn-Akurate-242-
at a couple of years old. Or as set of B&W or take your pick whatever company you want $7k used is quite a bit of money and for 40 year old speakers that is a lot! |
Having the CAST's in for 12+ hours so far.
I am going to wait awhile but the CAST's are not the same as VSF and seem to tilt the sound (quite a lot) to the bass.
I have went up to the amp several times to see if I have turned up the bass? (vintage remember tone controls)
CAST and VSF sound very different. (so far) I did not expect that? It is not just lower resonance they are a different sounding cap.
Undertow I was thinking about the vintage cap. Maybe a little liquidity in the mid range is not a bad thing? Give voices smoothness? Now that liquidity might not work in the highs where you need clarity? The plastic caps sound absolutely dead. Was that not Mundorf's intention with the Silver in Oil to get the liquid sound? |
Getting a baaaaad feeling I am going to wish I had of pushed for CAST for the midrange. |
