Final thoughts before ordering.
I have got back and forth to listening to Linn speakers same source and Linn with the Lp12. Klipsch with tubes and SS and digital and analog. Not sure why but on vintage my turntable does NOT sound very good at all. Likely poor phono stage.
I keep thinking I am going to wake up and realize what was I thinking. But time and time again the the foil caps vintage tube amp and the Klipsch sound better.
Even the much smaller amound of distortion through tube amps does not upset like SS distortion.
The Klipsch with vintage foil and Duelund VSF's sound so much more like being there.
Foil caps make the sound of real instruments and poly caps make the beat of the instruments but the mind says this is not real.
The distortion in foil caps does not bother one as much as poly distortion kind of like SS vs. tube distortion?
When listening to foil caps and 70% is sounding right (like real instruments) you listen to that and discount the 30%. With poly's you notice the distortion more and I think it is there is nowhere to hide in the music that sounds bang on. So the mind becomes fatigued. I can't listen to poly for long and have to turn it down or off.
My expectation on this is that likely the Duelund Aluminum VSF's (which I am not getting) still sound very real and likely beat any poly cap. The reason I say this is I think the vintage is aluminum and it sounds better in the midrange than Mundorf Supreme.
I had come down to three choices.
1. Duelund VSF's in the tweeters and vintage in the midrange. The Mundorf's were close to $120 delivered. So in my mind the used vintage foil in oil caps are a steal! They are worth more than Mundorf Supreme's except the being already old part. The vintage tweeter caps are just to noisy.
2. Duelund VSF in the mid's and tweeters. (this fixes all worn parts)
3. Duelund VSF and CAST (one each in the tweeter)
Duelund CAST inductor's as well. This one is some big $ and inductors don't wear like caps so if they do not sound better $1k of inductors is a lot of money to me! |
Inductor help
I am checking the Klipsch inductors and they use a wax paper wrapped inductor for the tweeter that is air core (I guess) Would this not really be very similiar to the Duelund wax paper inductor.
What could be the differnce? Higher guage better wire likely. |
I did check on the much cheaper Mundorf copper foil air core but they use poly to coat the wire?
Would this not cause the same problems as it does with caps? and maybe the vintage might be better???
Can't afford to find that out.
The vintage use on the tweeter circuit air core what looks to be waxed paper wrapped and is likely the same as the cheaper Duelund except the Duelund is 12 guage and no doubt the Klipsch is 16 or 18 guage wire???
I wish someone could tell me the difference? other then heavier guage wire? and would going from 18/16 to 12 make that much or any in the tweeter circuit?
I know Klipsch iron core woofer inductors are .29ohms (according to Bob Crites)
This put there resistance about as low as 12 guage air core. So a 12 guage air core waxed paper would be better because of being air core and but would a 12 gauge air core poly be better???? What would weigh in importance no poly or the iron core? or heavier guage wire?
Is Duelund really a vintage company with more modern tolerances? Not that this is bad thing?
Foil caps made better. (same but lower vibration)
Inductors same as old ones but being air core thicker wire
and in the case of CAST more solid.
What about their resistors?
All this means there was some serious $ in an original Klipsch crossover at today's prices. |
Volleyguy
First off I would be shocked if your tweeter inductor is 18 gauge, probably not and its most likely a 20 gauge in that speaker.
Second you are way to concerned in the case of the inductors.. In the tweeter it should be in the circuit parallel... 16 gauge standard magnet wire types should be excellent, even 14 gauge, and you can get silly with getting solen perfect lays or erse which both are overkill and cost more than you need at about 20 bucks an inductor..
You can also get the copper ribbon Alpha core inductors in both 16 gauge and 14 gauge as well.. or even 12 gauge which would be pointless in your application.
The capacitor is far more what will do the most in your tweeter, and fact being you can probably switch between your old inductor and a new one and barely if at all tell the difference..
Your Woofer is a totally different story, you could put a duelund or a mundorf cheap M-cap or superior and the biggest difference will come from your inductor being in series in there, which the bigger the better, I suggest the copper ribbon from goertz. You want to go to duelund well thats your choice, however as for resistors.. I have now tested the Mundorf resistors, and the Mills top ones, the Mills are very good, the mundorfs a even bigger and cheaper, which do the same job.. From reading the Duelunds being silver and the graphite really is not a better resistor but much more "Bright" sounding material from the reviews I have found, and many have backed up and actually removed the duelunds due to the silver probably being the culprite in most tweeter circuits especically horns putting them a bit too much.
This is all in the Shades of Grey area my friend, and with your speaker being a basic horn from klipsch, I would not get into overly exotic resistors and inductors you will guaranteed not get anything but the point of diminishing returns spending another 100 bucks or something over getting the very premium mundorf resistors or mills, with good copper standard inductors.. Wax paper, poly, or PLATINUM coated is the last of your concern, you will just need exact value inductors for the most benefit, and again a 16 gauge on the tweeter with magnet wire or ribbon will be the same as anything else almost guaranteed, I have tried them trust me.. As for the woofer again thats where you want the money in the inductor in my experience. |
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Thanks Undertow
I have had a chance to read your comments more now as we were out for the evening. You are right the tweeter inductor is in series. Even when talking to Chris at partsconnextion before he did not think parellal to be a very big deal. So I am getting nothing there.
Now back to the woofer inductor.
Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?
What weighs more heavy the thicker guage Alpha Air core with poly coating or the thinner guage with Iron and but no poly?
Undertow I expect the 12 gauge Alpha to be better than other smaller guage poly inductors but have you compared with waxed paper inductors? (even the vintage ones)
Excuse me for not sounding confident in the new products but these 30 year old vintage foil caps are kicking the crap out of one of the best Poly caps out there. I am concerned as to why? and it is not small differnence!
I am concerned with other brands of inductors. (other than Duelund) I sure do not want to spend anything on a part that is not better!
Is a 12 guage Alpha better than what I have? It has slightly lower resistance. But not much. .29ohms vintage and .23 for 12 guage Alpha.
Are inductors not sometimes 300ft long? Isn't 300ft of wire covered in poly a not good? I am sure the woofer circuit though is not as important as the tweeter being messed up by poly. (or in my case the mid range)
I am not going to try this one. If I get an inductor it will be Duelund or stick with the waxed paper vintage.
If the Mundorf Supreme is $120 for the mid range a speaker caps then the vintage should be worth $250 easy! I am running the system 24/7 on repeat to pile on the hours. |
"Is a Alpha Core at 12 guage air core better than the vintage Iron Core which is likely wrapped in waxed paper?"
You are definitely mixing priorities up here.. First off guaranteed that a 12 gauge copper foil will probably trounce the wax 18 gauge or whatever it is in your woofer circuit from 1970... Caps, well Caps are in a different world over how an inductor might or might not sound.. Caps are a material that can effect the signal more, an inductor of a good copper material with tight tolerance value will work well from just about any manufacturer, and in the case of the woofer I truly believe its more about how thick you can go, in otherwords a 12 gauge etc... will get you better, tighter, cleaner, and even faster low frequencies in my opinion.. Not once has a good inductor shown a problem in a woofer.. Its all about the exact right value.. By the way alpha core in connecticut I think they are still in that state will sell you a single pair of exact custom value direct if its not on the shelf with other distributors, and they do not charge any kinda premium for them.. I will admit this, the Alpha cores are not as good in my opinion on hi frequencies or midranges necessarily, but the best I have heard on woofer circuits demanding high power copper conduction, and have used them with several klipsch speakers with un-real results, but your running a vintage pro driver that barely moves I believe with tight surround, so its hard to gauge how well or not it will increase your response on that driver, but I know it will work excellent..
And by the way this "Poly Plastic" sound you are supposedly pinpointing really should not show in any woofer really, your hearing it up in the mid probably 1000 hz and higher giving you a more compressed sound, this will not occur in your woofer, your over thinking it trust me. |
Excuse me Undertow I meant to say of course the tweeter caps are in parallel.
Undertow have you done that test on inductors?
Waxed paper ones vs. poly covered ones?
or anyone?
Undertow a copy of Stereophile's article on the Fisher 500c. I am going to say likely most any vintage piece to different degrees. The vintage foil caps is SMOKING what Tempo Electric (Mundorf Supreme) says is the second best cap. I think all those dead guys with ears are great but most likely it is because they did not have poly caps then. Everyone used natural stuff because that is what they had.
That is why I think only the Duelund will be an improvement. My bigget fear is I would spend a lot (on an inductor) and not even notice it. (I hope I do!) My wife when she heard the Sonicap vs. vintage thought the Sonicaps were BROKEN! She could not believe the difference and had no idea which caps were in either speaker. Undertow I am not a vintage guy and my main stereo is as new as 2004 pre-amp and all what is known as "high end" and this is what I have found
1. Vintage int tube (smokes new big $ SS pre and amp)
2. Vintage speakers (smokes the '90's higher end new stuff)
3. Vintage foil cap (in the mid range) smokes high end poly caps.
Stereophile quote
"Forget everything you've read or imagined over the past 20 yearsvintage gear does not necessarily sound rolled-off, soft and woolly, or fuzzy. This stuff is as far from windup Victrola sound as HDTV is from 1950s black-and-white TV. It is serious high-end audio, and offers a bouquet of endless multilayered soundscapes, pinpoint and holographic images, startling frequency response, and exceptional pace, rhythm, and drive. It's what we look for in our hobby, and it's been here all along. I've invested many years chasing the best cutting-edge gear our industry offers, yet I've never been more satisfied with music and audio since finding a home in yesteryear with all those dead guys with ears".
What is the reason?
I think it is modern plastic cheap manufacturing yes but does horrible things to the sound. |
Sorry Undertow
I did not see your post before mine.
Undertow it is a good case that any heavy guage good inductor will do as I understand the skin effect it is a high freq that would be effected and since a woofer is not that a good arguement can be made that the negative effect of poly would not matter.
If you have tried in the woofer than you are saying that the 12 gauge weighs more heavy than the negative effect of poly. Which I do believe you as that does make sense in the low freq.
I am going to wait to see what Chris says today and make the order. I do agree I would rather spend the $ on quality on the high freq cap as it is VERY noticeable there. |
I don't know of any wax paper anything quite honestly.. I don't know if anybody even makes such a thing these days.. However from inductors I have used, I have gone really stupid once and used the 10 gauge like 10 lb inductors from northcreek custom made, very expensive.. Good no doubt but found in the end probably unnecessary.. Again a Good Series thick gauge like the 12 gauge on your woofers will be plenty to give you full response without power compression from any amp.. I have driven them with 8 watts and had monster subwoofer bass out of drivers driven with 12 gauge copper ribbons.. Very efficient, and yes the effect you are kinda looking for with Clearing up the bass, and having more "Efficient" or more "Effortless" sound will be apparent with the Alpha cores for sure on your woofers.. I believe spending something like 150 or more on inductors will just be again another point of diminishing returns.. Although I have no idea what size inductors are feeding your woofers, if they are anything at about 2.5 mH or under you should be able to get a pair somewhere into the 100 or 130 a pair range from alpha core..
And yes your tweeters etc
are in parallel not series which is why you will find little to no difference in most cases, go with a nice 16 or 14 gauge if you really want to get thick magnet wire inductor, air core.. Whoever you can find is fine.. I would not spend much more than 30 to 50 bucks a pair of inductors in that case. But for your woofers being with the series inductor directly feeding the power to the driver yep you want something good, you might be shocked at the extra balance you get to keep up with those mundorf circuits once you wake that woofer up and then you might find the midrange with the mundorf is not harsh or plastic at all once you put in an inductor on your woofer, it will blend and give you more low end with better results and you might save yourself from replacing the midrange circuit again, and just keep the duelunds on the Tweets
Good Luck |
The vintage inductor has what looks like waxed paper wrapped around the wires to stop vibration in the inductor.
Duelund does this same style but with air core. Duelund is all about getting the plastic out of the system. All the caps have no plastic. The inductors no plastic and I am sure the interconnects no plastic.
I am not going to spend the money to try it but would not at all be surprised to find that modern inductors do not sound as good. More bass due to lower resistance maybe but more natural sounds? I doubt it as they are wrapped in poly. The resistance difference from 12 guage Alpha and vintage is not that great.
Keep up with Mundorf's! The Mundorf's are wayyyyy out their league compared to vintage. The foil caps are MUCH faster smoother and sound way more real with much better timing. The Duelund's are just a modern version of the vintage and they are better. (in the tweeters anyway)
Undertow believe me this is not what I expected. I thought when the Mundorf's went in I was going to decide if they were good enough to not get Duelund. Never in my wildest esxpectation did I think they were not going to be as good as the vintage foil caps.
I am getting Duelund's just waiting for the call from partsconnextion. It is whether it is VSF or CAST that is the only choice.
Undertow it is plastic I am sure of it.
That is why Stereophile praised the 500c. That is a receiver for pete's sake, hardly the be all of any company's line. I think the plastic has more effect than anything. Can you not sense the disgust in the reviewers words when he was talking about vintage (receiver) from dead guys with ears being better than anything today at mega $. That is a huge stab at modern methods for sure. When you are a adverttising magazine and you say a comment like that about a company that is out of business (so they can not advertise) against your current companies you can bet he took heat for that. |
Running the Mundorf Supreme's 24/7 now for awhile.
At least 50+ hours now. |
I have put back in the vintage foil caps in the midrange.
The sound is much smoother voices more real. Instruments do not have that jagged edge of poly caps. All poly caps I have tried are the biggest downgrade you can make to the sound.
I have put the order through.
I went with Duelund CAST midrange and 2 Duelund CAST tweeter caps.
I could not pull the trigger on the inductors. Although I am sure they are an excellent product I just do not know how much better they would be then current vintage inductors or Alpha or Mundorf Inductors. I know the Poly affects the sound but I do not know how much on the inductor it does. I think Poly is a skin effect thing and that is high freq. At Alpha or Mundorf prices I can try and see if they are better than vintage at Duelund prices you just have to know what the effects are going to be. |
The Teflon caps are here.
I am going to listen to some vintage mid caps put the Mundorf's back in and then leave the Mundorf's and bypass with Russian Teflon.
So far favorite tweeter caps
1. Duelund/Duelund
2. Duelund/Supreme (maybe Silver in Oil after time the tilt to the high end calms down)
3. Supreme/Silver in Oil (only have one SIO)
4. Sonicaps
5. vintage (wayyyyy to much noise)
Fav's in the midrange (Duelund not here)
1. Vintage Foil caps that come with speakers (by a long shot)
2. Mundorf Supreme (dynamic but fake and rough sounding)
3. Sonicaps (not near dynamic enough
I have no idea what to expect of Teflon as a bypass. |
Retesting the vintage and Mundorf's. The gap is closing with the Mundorf's as they break in. (compared to vintage)
On the plus side Mundorf brings out more bass.
They still sound rougher than the vintage and always sound fake but they are quieter. They have a "stereo" sound to them vintage foil has a "real" sound.
I will put in Teflon for bypass. |
I put what I thought was the Teflon at only .44 of 12.7uf total value and thought the sound was smoothed out somewhat.
I find out those were the Paper in Oil ones. I was surprised to be honest of any change with such a small bypass. But the change was real.
It would have been interesting to try a pile of the Russian Paper in Oil.
I have the Teflons in now. |
I have the Russian Teflon and the Russian K40y-9 PIO. I really liked what the PIO did when they first went in. I thought they were teflon's (Russian caps you can't what they are) but they seemed to smooth things out. With the Teflon it does not sound as good.
In another cap review I hear they are considered one of the best Russian caps. Ahhh another guy who thinks all plastic caps sound like plastic! I was shocked to find a small by pass reduces the plastic sound of poly caps.
quote from someone else on these caps.
"I must thank Bob B and Les Lemmars for kindly loaning me these K40y caps. After the usual rocky burn-in ritual, this PIO cap settled into a confident, natural sounding device. There are some audiophiles who rank these PIO caps as the best of the Russian military caps, including the FT-3 and K72 teflon caps. I may agree with this sentiment when it comes to utter naturalness and ease of presentation as well as the lack of a subtle plastic sound, which of course all plastic (film) caps have". |
I have become intrigued with the Russian PIO. I took back out the Teflon just leaving in the Russian PIO.
I need to put some hours on these but first impression is good. They reduce the nasty plastic sound of the Mundorf Supreme.
For the first time since the Mundorf's went in I do not feel the need to burn in while not in the room or the desire to pull them out. |
K40Y9 PIO sounds pretty good right out of the box and should improve within 10-20 hours. FT-3 teflon takes much longer to break-in and can be irritating until it does. I've had good luck paralleling K40 & FT-3; this seems to improve bass definition and treble clarity, as compared to K40Y9 PIO by itself. When mixing different types and values you should listen carefully for smearing of detail.
It would be interesting to have your views of these byapss caps tested separately on the tweeter and woofer sections. |
Thanks Dave
What is the voltage of the PIO? Can they be used in electronics to replace vintage caps?
You are right on the Teflons being not that good right out of the box. I have heard some crazy hours like 400 for Teflons? That is almost a month at 24/7! Wow!
You would want to know they are good at the end of that. |
K40Y9 that you have are .22uf/1000V; FT-3 is .1uf/600V; FT-1 is .01uf/200V. Other values and voltage ratings are available on Ebay. All are OK for electronics within their voltage range. The russian seller claims to have tested FT-1 .01uf/200V out to 1000V.
If you don't want to wait for break-in of FT-3, put them all in parallel and wire the parallel pack in series with an AC load such as 75W or 100W lightbulb. Give them several weeks like that.
To hear K40 at its best, clip off the steel leads and replace with audiophile wire soldered to the stubs left protruding from the glass ends. BTW these mil spec PIO are hermetically sealed and should never leak. |
Did some more testing and I do not mean to upset anyone here who owns either Bennic, Sonicap, or Mundorf but all plastic caps I have heard degrade the sound in a big way and it is NOT hard to tell. In the horns you hear everything. (good or bad) I am being critical of even my own gear wondering what the heck was I thinking!
Biggest surprises
Duelund in the tweeter, how good the vintage STILL is in the midrange, Russian PIO as bypass can help and these may be very good caps maybe better than vintage if they were big enough.
Biggest disapointments
Linn and B&W and many big name speaker companies use just cheap caps. I guess that is why I have had a foil cap speaker for 30 years. Unacceptable at the prices they charge! Mundorf SIO and all plastic caps. I guess good if you want to make your system sound more like plastic.
I got one plastic cap to get rid of in the amp with I hope Russian PIO and then all done.
So far favorite tweeter caps
1. Duelund/Duelund
2. Duelund/Supreme (not SIO I do not see them as even better than Supreme)
3. Supreme/Silver in Oil (only have one SIO)
4. Sonicaps
5. vintage (wayyyyy to much noise)
6. Bennic (in the Linn)
Fav's in the midrange (Duelund not here to compare)
1. Vintage Foil caps that come with speakers (by a long shot!)
2. Mundorf Supreme (with the Russian PIO bypass caps)
3. Mundorf Supreme (dynamic but fake and rough sounding)
4. Supreme 10uf with SIO and Russian PIO (again do not care for SIO at all)
5. Sonicaps (not near dynamic enough)
6. Bennic (in the Linn speakers awful) |
The CAST caps are not here yet but will be interesting.
JohnK had done extensive work on vintage Klipsch speakers. He had tried working on the cabinets to dampen them down. I feel the resonance is caused by the foil cap and maybe not the cabinet. At least I hope it is as I know the caps resonate.
Tony Gee talked about how the Duelund's made everything sound more real. That would not be the exact words I would use. I find the Duelund sounds similiar to the vintage with a MASSIVE reduction in resonance. My words would be (after living with foil caps for 25+ years) is that plastic caps are much less real and plasticize the sound. Where the Duelund's shine is they are wayyyyy out of the league of vintage in noise reduction.
Tony and Tempo talk about things sounding more real (with Duelund) I believe real is what was there (always in foil caps) and the plastic caps changed everything to plastic sounding and we have become used to that.
The weakness of the vintage Klipsch is the resonance and I think it is in the vintage cap not the box. The only thing I can go on this is the HUGE reduction in resonance that came from the Duelund in the tweeter.
I have not been as excited about an Audio product in a long time as I am about these CAST caps coming. Very high hopes. I am glad they were designed for horns. |
Well why not just finish your duelund investment off right?
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablspkr&1225763765&/Duelund-Speaker-Cable-10%-off- |
I am looking at that very idea of speaker cable. I am using 12 guage Linn speaker wire. 25 ft x 2. (which I need nowhere near as much) I am curious as to how much difference plastic free speaker wire will make? Easier to replace worn out caps than almost new speaker wire. (in the mind anyway)
Looking at homemade speaker wire not sure why Duelund costs so much? I just can't make my own caps.
Very pricey wire though! |
Last night I replaced the Sonic Cap Gen I's in the high pass with Claritycap MR's.
My first initial impression was, they're tremendous! The .89uf MR is larger than the 17uf Sonic Cap used in my low pass. The 4.7uf MR is just tremendous. If I didn't build a point to point x-over on a piece of MDF, there would be no way I would be able to use these.
First listening impression, right off the bat they seem smoother, less closed in, pianos especially sounds more realistic, and there is slightly better separation. And I don't know if I am imaging things, but there seems to be less floor noise. Now does someone want to give me a loan so I can purchase some for my low pass? :D
I can't wait to get some hours on these! |
Face,
Your not imagining, I used the MR's in a more critical location than you and its a much quieter and smooth background than any of the other caps... Yep the size is ridiculous on these so applications will be limited for most as they just won't fit, however still the best value for the money and materials available right now in caps that I can see or hear. |
Hmmm that's interesting. Face I am not surprised that the Clarity is better than the Sonicaps. Dynamics on the Sonicaps is very weak.
Face any other caps to compare too? Would be interesting compared to Mundorf? As I understand they are much more costly than Sonicaps? Now you and Undertow are very smitten with these caps.
I of course cannot comment as of course I have never heard them. I will have to wait for a Tony Gee or Tempo review as I have blown my load!
I have put one of the Russian .22uf PIO with the vintage as a bypass cap and can say so far I do NOT like that combo. |
Anyone heard the buzz about Audio Note speakers? I had never heard of them. (30 years with one speaker will do that)
I keep hearing how they sound better than B&W etc for the $. I did check out what they are made of and it is interesting to see that as you move up there line they talk about the upgraded parts. They use at some point foil capacitors and Alnico magnet woofers etc. It is nice to hear companies talking about the quality of components. I read in Stereophile the other day and none of the speaker companies really talked about there crossovers? Like it did not mean everything.
Has anyone ever heard Audio Note? I may check them out for the livingroom. (Klipsch will NEVER get there or I will be divorced) |
Well I would suppose you heard of the audio note capacitors as we mentioned them a few times in this thread alone
So yes the speakers are another one of their products, but not sure if they are what you would want or need, they are about 10,000 per pair I believe and thats with just a single 8" driver and soft dome tweeter. |
Undertow I did see that price after putting in the post. Not cheap but I do keep hearing how there speakers are better than most for the $. Yes I have heard of the capacitors. I only tried Duelund as they seem to be higher rated than Audio Note. I am sure there foil caps are good though but they do have 10% tolerances which Duelund is 1 or 2% and I do not believe they make to order? I did not find anyone to go crazy over Audio Note caps and they are not cheap? I think Audio Note is the same as Jenssen??? Just rebranded??
I am going to put in an all Mundorf crossover today and put back on the SS. Linn Klout amp and LP12. I think it only fair to use modern amp with modern style (poly cap)
I just want to make sure the foil is not just a good match to vintage tube gear. |
I put back in the Mundorf caps in the midrange. What is noticable is the less noise. I remember reading McIntosh quoting higher signal to noise ratio out of there amps using poly caps. This is easy to understand the only thing that would concern me is yes the S/N ratio is higher but what happens to the signal? Is it kind of a CD thing where the noise is lowered but the signal is compromised and the "number" looks better on paper.
I do appreciate the lower Mundorf noise floor. (much lower than vintage) It does improve bass as it reduces noise. PWK had once said there is noise even in a hall to record. I often wonder if that is some of the fake sound to poly caps are they just too quiet? (but Duelund does not sound fake and is very very quiet) Is the sound of poly's unaturally quiet? The friend who liked the all vintage foil caps crossover at first likely thought the reverb sounded like what his mind was expecting things to sound. When you hear a band live it is always a noise filled affair with tons of reverb.
So I guess in a way caps would suit the type of music you listen to and what you want for sound. That is why there is vintage only guys and I suppose they like a "real" sound and lots of reverb.
If one mostly listened to classical you for sure would not want lots of rock concert reverb.
What started this thread was the speakers I always loved I was not liking anymore. Was it me? (getting into my 40's) and not wanting to hear a rock concert all the time. Listening to different music with a different desire. Or were the caps worn out? The tweeter caps for sure produced massive noise!
When the thread first started I prefered the Linn (non horn) sound. The soundstage was bigger and set back farther and was not coming at you like horn speakers.
Now with the tweeter caps and vintage tube the favorite went back to the horns. The Linn's sound very harsh and have almost no upside.
I have now put in an all Mundorf crossover. I will also put in a analog front end with SS later. |
I've only tried the MR's, Sonic Cap Gen I and II, Dayton, and Solen so far.
I emailed Tony Gee about the MR's a week or two ago. Here was his response:
"Hi Mike,
I am not completly finished testing them yet, but so far I find the Clairy Cap MR to be very spatious, they have a very wide and tall image with lots of detail and at the same time they ar quite neutral and smooth. I will probably place them above the Clarity Cap DTAC.
regards,
Tony"
I'm curious to see his final rating since he rated the DTAC a 10.5, Mundorf S/O 10, S/G 11, S/G/O 11.5.
Mike |
Thats very interesting.. But I bet they are in the 11.5 rating probably equal, I would take the MR purely based on build and future reliability with no OIL.. Especially if in an electronic piece vs. speakers. |
Great work Mike.
I guess the Clarity Cap is very, very good. How does there price compare to Mundorf range? One thing I do find strange is Tony's assesment of Mundorf range and Tempo's? Tempo likes that Supreme better than SIO and Tony places each more expensive Mundorf higher. I have heard many not like Silver/Gold? I do see Tony does not like all foil caps and really just the Duelund's stand out to him.
My biggest concern is that the CAST is better than the already excellent VSF. A nightmare to me would be that the CAST is not as good at more money. Tempo doesn't like SIO more at more money. So $ do not always equal better.
I am running an all Mundorf crossover now with one tweeter SIO the rest Supreme. I have tried on just tubes so far but will try with SS. My LP12 was my main listening and CD just as back-up.
The Mundorf is very good compared to the Bennic in the Linn. All those cheap crossover parts just sound cheap! I am trying to compare Mundorf to just Bennic. If I compare to Duelund/vintage I get frustrated. |
I would with an educated assessment of what I have experienced say the CAST vs. VSF in a very critical or higher power application will most likely have an edge in some cases, again depending on the application..
However I have experienced as with many things I really know that the VSF in a speaker vs. a Cast I would give the edge to the VSF simply sonically being not too much of a good thing or whatever, and the fact it is definitely at the helm via point of diminishing returns already I am sure, and I feel the same with the MR caps, Even the audio note silver due to cost, or the V-cap would be a turn in the wrong direction in my opinion regardless just based on cost to performance difference alone. Especially looking at the type of speakers or overall frequency range we are talking about here... I still feel the best for the money but impossible to use in most applications due to the physcial size is the Clarity MR now. |
By the way volley, the MR's are about 25% cheaper than the SIlver/Gold Oils mundorfs top dog, and are about Half the price of the Duelund VSF Cu series
So they are more cost effective and materials used in them is a little more reliable from the history of caps as it goes I guess, as nobody really knows how long the new range of Oil caps will last without breaking down, never really tested time reliability, and I am not making a case for it here at all just thought it was worth mentioning especially with the cost involved obviously deciding to buy these kinds of caps.. |
Another eval of "A Day in the Life" Beatles. I use that because I am sure many people have there music to compare.
The song on vintage tube all Mundorf. (one Supreme one SIO tweeter cap)
Aggressive sounding
The song with Duelund/vintage is about Ringo peacefully in his own space with the orchestra in the background center. You can visualize him all by himself. There is a spot in the end where John is made to float and the orchestra is brought forward. I only knew this after Duelund/vintage.
With the Mundorf the sound is much more aggressive. Ringo is not in his own space and is not drumming in peaceful isolation. The orchestra is overbearing. John does not float. It is not the same soft beautiful subtle song with the same effects.
I always wanted to know what some of the differences were in caps. I know rated 10, 11 or 6 or whatever and Tony touches on it but what does it mean? I know it is easy to say what is wrong with say Bennic (noisy and very harsh)(or in my case Sonicaps lack of dynamics) but what is the difference at the higher level?
This is a very interesting note.
I have praised up the vintage Fisher no end on foil caps and beat up the SS Linn Klout. On the foil caps the Linn Klout sounds awful very mid range shouty. On the Mundorf's now that I have put the Linn Klout back in it at least sounds as good as the tube amp and if not better!!???
So for sure there is something about foil caps and vintage tubes and horns. Likely all voiced together at the same time from the same era.
The Linn Klout on digital sounds Ok on the Mundorf's not as good as vintage tube on foil but certainly not worse than the vintage and I think better.
Somewhat faster and better timing. But neither make "real" instruments in my mind on plastic caps.
I am going to hook back up the Lp12 which will be nice as most of my music is on vinyl and the phono section on the vintage (to me) was awful! |
Undertow
I hope and pray you are wrong. (no offense) I hope the CAST is better than the VSF in the crossover. I am only going on the hunch that the CAST is the same but has better damping properties. (what they have been saying) I have talked to Duelund and Burt Doppenberg. They both said the CAST was better but you are right also meaning deminishing rates of return. Better I can live with and say whether or not it is worth the $. Worse would not be good!
I understand the CAST to be much quieter but maybe only really noticeable on horn type speakers. The CAST were designed for horns as horn and noise not being good. Horns are great to reveal everything but that is a double edge sword. |
Well my only cavet over the issue is being such a supreme cap so to speak is only being used in a very limited frequency response application.. I would say for the money at that point I hate to say but the VSF is probably 99% of it and you would never know the difference.... If it was a full range audio signal in a tube electronic along with being a major piece in the signal of the system I could see some slight advantage possibly of the cast...
Other than that I am just speaking from an outside point of view knowing I would never pay that much especially for the type of application here. Your electronics might come into play more than you wish after running the cast because now you might have moved to another facet of this thing and really need to feed those horns with something VERY quiet and dynamic to get the optimal results, your pair of capacitors in cost now virtually outweight the entire worth of the whole system it seems.
There is however some glimmer of hope, I never knew the background noise a cap could filter until I heard the MR's, they are dead silent, and I thought the other caps were dead silent before the experience! I assume the cast could have similar results due to this whole talk on internal vibration control character these very new hi end caps are addressing.
Good Luck |
Undertow we for sure do not feel the same of importantance of the the crossover caps. Limited freq response? I am am confused the mids and highs are run by the mid and tweeter cap. Other than the inductor for the woofer all freq are covered by crossover caps?
As for the differnce from foil Duelund to Mundorf not being in a critical area? It is the biggest difference from any component I have ever heard.
As for the CAST being better maybe not, but the difference from Duelund to Mundorf on tubes is MASSIVE! |
I think you mis understood the comment... Point being the caps you are using in a crossover are only handling each portion separatley, in otherwords you are using a cap to feed each driver which is only producing a very limited range of audio response. Use a cap in an amp or preamp etc.. And it is feeding the entire range at all times.
\Your dividing up the bands and thats the point of a crossover in the first place. Again simply illustrating there might be a true point of diminishing returns here, using your mundorf on a woofer alone for example will probably perform nearly identical to a CAst or any other in most speakers.. The cast would show more of its performance optimaly on a mid or tweeter alone so to speak.
And in a full range application literally output caps directly in a signal of the electronics exhibit much more of what a cap is capable in with my experience.. Much why many like to use these V-caps and other teflons as they have a bit higher power handling and complete frequency spectrums.. Again in a loudspeaker even these guys testing only used and state that mundorf or duelund was tested in loudspeaker application only for example, mainly because they are too large in size and or just not really designated to be electronic device caps, Although the mundorfs have very high voltage ratings, and thats fine. I have used Mundorfs top caps in electronics, it was much better suited in the crossover, however the clarity MR's and Jantzen superiors are much better in these applications for instance of electronics. |
By the way I think you are very wrong in that I don't believe in the importance of the crossover caps, I have spent more time and money on speakers and caps than some have on the systems my self in the past!! I just learned there is a certain approach and variables to look at meaning one cap being good universally is very hard to find all the time.. And only reason as a universal cap for the money the MR's are the best yet in this realm my opinion
You are going on a one time experience in just getting a more echo and not really considered refined sounding horn in the first place to calm down and spread out, nothing to much of a miracle did you find here(no offense)
You have spent a lot on caps an a very short time and limited application so what you hear is probably correct, but by no means the best and most efficient method for every situation, so I simply offered a little more logical and more or less true approach to see what is truly necessary or effective for the purpose at hand. You choose to not chance it and spend much more than necessary to be done and never have a question you have the best of the best, thats fine, just suggesting for those where money cannot be spent and they really want to have a solid approach to this, its not always the answer to believe the best has to be all one thing, there is a balance, and it can be obtained without going as far as the combo of using only the like second most expensive capacitor in the world on a 500 dollar pair of speakers. Although I admit I hear what you do in that I would many times now believe a 500 dollar pair of speakers with the best crossover available can beat the pants off a speaker in the 5000 or 10,000 range with a 2 dollar Solen cap in it. |
Well Undertow you could be right and I think you are as that is why I backed away from buying Duelund CAST inductors. Yes even Chris at partsconnextion thinks the tweeter cap being the most important. (and hardest to get right)
The Klipsch of course use and inductor and not a cap for the woofer. I was allowed to add to my Duelund order as it was open before the price increase which was good but allowed a one shot only order. I would have ordered a CAST tweeter cap to hear the difference if that was not the case. You may be right about dimishing returns. I will say the returns are NOT dimished by VSF at least in an no poly system.
You are right about the full range of caps in the system but I (think) are missing by far the biggest point and that is that crossover parts are only powered by the signal. This makes them MUCH more sensitive as they use the signal to power themselves. The "full" range caps in the amp are of course powered by the electricity in the socket and not the signal. This is why both Linn and Steen Duelund believe the crossover will ALWAYS be the weak link of ANY system.
All I was saying is the Duelund is specatular in a foil based system but even ONE plastic cap in the crossover degrades there value in my mind. My reference is still vintage foil cap in the midrange vintage tube amp and Duelund in the tweeter cap. It may switch to CAST in the midrange and (I hope) it does after they are installed. |
Undertow I can understand your non belief in the importance of a crossover cap as I admit ONE poly cap in the crossover and all is lost! I do not know why. (I can guess)
I would not say a "one time" base of less echo. The Duelund do much more than that.
No offense taken on the miracle cure with Duelund caps. Although the tweeters caps were the best (new) money I ever spent.
Undertow I did even say I only think the full effect of the Duelund only really shines in a fully non poly system. The Duleund was based on previous prices to me and I do not think I am going crazy as all the other options have proven to be let downs. (not hearing clarity caps) I do not think of Audio as a job of just being "good enough". I fully do admit and said if saving money was an object the vintage foil cap is very good (paired with the Duelund tweeter cap) and of course is free as I already owned it. You are right that these are not valuable speakers. No arguement here. ($500 is a little cheap as the last set sold on e-bay for $3k of similiar vintage) I will say with the vintage foil/Duelund they blow away my Linn speakers by a mile! I just hope the CAST is as good as I hope.
It is nice to hear we are in agreement of the importantance of the crossover allowing a much cheaper speaker to beat the pants off an expensive one if it has good parts. Before this I admit I would have doubted the importantance of the crossover. I just can not afford to try Clarity. I love the sound of Duelund so my only dilema was VSF or CAST. Duelund was bang on what I was looking for. Clarity might be great I do not know. I can just sayall the polys I tried I do not like and even vintage foil was better leading me to cut the chase and stay with foil. Now I hope they just get here soon! |
Last couple of days digital on SS and all Mundorf. YUCK! I now see why I went back to vinyl. That just makes it much more tolerable. Tomorrow back to foil caps and SS and vinyl for one more try. Until I got the vintage tube amp I thought my CD player sucked! I was going to sell it. I thought vinyl was the only thing to listen too.
Does anyone want some Mundorf caps? As soon as I get the Duelund I will do one last compare and then sell off the Mundorf. The biggest comparison for the Duelund will be to better the vintage, which is still the best in the midrange.
Just PM me. This will make an affordable try for anyone. If not they are going on e-bay. Values are Mundorf Supreme 2.2uf, 10uf, 3.3uf and a Mundorf Silver in Oil at 2.2uf.
I have a friend coming by with a vintage SET amp and a few others once the caps are in. He wants to hear for his Khorns as well. |
Tony Gee updated his page again.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html |
I see that Face.
Is the foil cap Obligatto new as well???
I was waiting with baited breath on the CAST review. Somewhat nervous as well. I had this fear of looking down and seeing a 10 or something on the CAST! I hope to see a 14! (and new reference)
I am back to where the test started one speaker on vintage foils and the other on poly's. Only now it is Mundorf instead of Sonicaps. Back to SS for comparison. The sound is similiar except the Mundorf have more dynamics. A beefier sound. Funny my thoughts have not changed very much on caps since the start. |
One thing I wish Tony would do is go through his ratings and knock the numbers down. If a Duelund VSF is a 12.5 (out of 10) it gives the impression of stuff being to high. Make the Duelund (or whatever the reference is) a 10 and then put the Mundorf Supreme down to 6.5 and the Solens at 4. That would reflect more reality. That would say most factory speakers use a 3 or 4 (out of 10) part and a upgrade to to Supreme would be a upgrade to a pass from a failure. Right now it looks like everything above 10 out of 10 is gravy! (or something crazy)
The numbers he uses make it look like most are really, really good and some (like Duelund) are just stupid good (like 12.5/10) and I disagree with that. Undertow talked about dimishing returns and stuff like Tony's review make it seem that way, because if 10 is perfect why get 12??? |
Tried to test the vintage amp on the Linn speakers and this did not work as the speakers are set up for twi-wiring and I would need the bars to use single wire.
What was I thinking. |
