Well now we are getting silly, I agree CAP PHYSICAL size HAS ZERO to do with performance.. Reason a Mundorf may be more dynamic is it is in fact 2 caps in one, and run to be like almost a cancelling type device... And they are in series inside the cap housing which might be what adds to the slight Harmonic excess, and the slightly "Higher" efficiency that many claim to hear that cap has, which in turn enhances the dynamics..
The Duelunds are a different animal and layed out completly in a different geometry and probably the characteristics is similar to the same effect the mundorfs have on the sound.
As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat, not a ton of detailed information nor are they 3d or spacial masters by any means, however they are of a more conventional design than either the mundorf or duelund, and they are simply of different materials as well.. NOTHING EXOTIC is used in the Sonicap, the others are totally off the standard path of capacitor materials with much higher degree of quality type tolerance and approach..
But I totally agree Physical SIZE wars has nothing to do with it and is totally ridiculous... Zero correlation to do with what is going on here.. There are smaller caps that can sound as good, and also as bad, difference is the bigger caps have higher voltage ratings because then the dielectric is thicker and will not melt, this could be worse for some designs who knows?
And Dulunds are only so large due to the geometry, They are not nearly as thick as a round cap however. |
Actually I know for a fact a sonicap does not sound as good as either of the 2 other caps here, so thats not the point, However it would be interesting to see taking the 2 smaller caps of smaller value, be it Sonicap or whoever and "BAttery" them together for example 2 sonicap 1 uF caps to equal a total of 2 uF, and I can tell you this, I have actually heard it, and it was in tube amps, this was as dynamic as a single mundorf which would have 2 (4uF) caps inside doing essentially the same job as the "Batteried" sonicaps... However still the mundorfs use higher grade materials, in the end will sound more liquid, less dry etc... With probably a little more organic bass and dynamic contrasts...
So in order to make all things equal if you wish to compare PHYSICAL size parameters in this case, you would Need 2 SONICAPS which will be DOUBLE the size you are now talking about and it would be VERY close in physical size to the mundorf which has DUAL capacitors in ONE single housing.. They are totally different caps, and totally different sizes, but not because of what you think or see. |
To put the theory to rest, I just looked up and converted BOTH the sonicap size of 2 20 uF caps or a Single Mundorf 10 uF cap which is 2 20 uF caps in one body and guess what, Identical SIZE TO THE 'T' !!!
Sonicap Gen 1 20 uF 1.41" x 2.02" multiply x 2 = 1.41" x 4.04" long
Mundorf 10 uF supreme cap 1.42" x 4.2" long
So if Sonicap was to construct an identical cap as the mundorf as they already make, this should debunk the size theory... Sonicap does not construct DUAL caps in series in one housing, mundorf does, but they are identical in size with this config... Again I will not argue sonicaps are good, I can care less, but it has nothing to do with size... And if it does, essentially you should get nearly equal dynamics using DUAL sonicaps than for making up a single value, which in fact I accidentally heard due to a tube amp manufacture I have first hand experience has done, and it was excellent and VERY close to the performance replacing them with a single better brand cap of the same physical size.. which happend to be a mundorf with exactly double the capacitors built inside one unit etc.. |
Dear Volleyguy: With all my respect to you and for what you already posted ( caps's size, a higher price cap is better, parallel/series caps, no breacking time to the caps, caps combinations, inductors, taking the Tempo people like a reference, etc, etc )it is clear to me that you are a " Rockie " about caps inductors and speaker voicing.
What is a surprise to me is that with all that non-know how about suddenly you are an expert and give advise about to other Agoner's in many ways ( example ): +++++ This is something for all to consider when replacing caps make sure you get as big (dynamic) cap as before .... " +++++
IMHO in all what you are posted the only coherent statement is:
**** The Sonicaps to me are nuetral so the flaws only become apparent on direct comparison *******
You really don't know those " flaws " because for what you already posted you don't have any reference but other caps that maybe are the ones that has the " flaws ".
Undertow posted: +++++ As for sonicaps, well my opinion they are a cheap cap, and yes are a bit flat *******
he say is a bit flat and you that it is neutral, well IMHO both characteristics are highly desirous in any cap reagrdless of price ( the price means nothing about the quality performance in a cap. ).
From my experiences and the other people experiences the Mundorf are not a neutral-flat cap ( either the Duelund in lower level ) it adds colorations/distortions ( like the ones that you are hearing: dynamics, a false dynamics I have to say ).
Why don't like you the neutral-flat Sonicaps? well because show you the whole quality limitations in your system that for what you report about is not of a very high quality performance ( between other things the Scala's are not up to the task. ).
Why many people does not like a flat response in their audio systems? why they like the colored ( heavy colored/distorted ) system performance? because with a neutral-flat system only the good audio items designs can give them a pleasure and enjoying music, poor or mediocre designs ( everywhere in the audio chain ) show immediatly its " cooper " and IMHO that's what is happening to you.
The Sonicaps IMHO are a lot better of what you are reporting and more " honest " than the Mundorf or Duelunds.
This is what Atmasphere posted about caps of the same type like the MUN/DUEL that I agree about:
+++++ Paper and oil is nice, but in nearly all of them there is a slightly shelved high frequency character (mind you- not a rolloff) that causes them to have an overly delicate character. Nice for a lot of things but annoying if you play the complete range of music on your system. " +++++
+++++ Certainly they are more detailed than paper and oils with considerably more neutrality. Paper and Oil caps can develop electrical leakage over time that can damage other parts- +++++
both statements comes from someone that really knows what is talking about.
It is clear for me that your whole system ( through the Scalas ) are in trouble about quality performance and the Mundorf-Duelunds not only hide it but make heavier.
Of course, like I posted in my first post, that you like a colored/distorted performance nothing wrong with that but please don't give advise that a colored/distorted cap is a better choice than a neutral one.
IMHO any cap must be designed to add nothing and to be dead neutral as the materials permit it ( nothing is perfect ) and not to design caps with a precise signature performance ( colorations added ) like the Mundorfs-Duelunds that are frequency/performance manipulated on purpose.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Sorry guys late and off to bed.
I will answer comments tomorrow.
All I was saying is the Mundorf is much bigger has much more dynamics than Sonicap and is well worth the money difference. (for this kind of application in my opinion)
from Mundorf
"Special induction-free winding technology: Two capacitor windings are interleaved so that their inductances effectively cancel each other out. These two windings are connected in series. This means that it takes two 2µF windings to make a single 1µF MCap-Supreme capacitor - the same amount that it would take to produce a full 4µF of capacity using conventional technology"!
I wish I heard that from former Klipsch owners. I am no cap expert but have owned these speakers for 30 years so I do know what they sound like and can say a Sonicap is a for sure downgrade from original. (if I would have read that from a 30 year owner who has nothing to sell)
When I started this (I was and still am no cap expert or claim to be) I was told by so much I read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true. Yes there are better caps out today. (Duelund for sure) I'll I am saying is if Sonicap is the best bang for the buck cap one might start to think about spending more than you think.
I hope one reads this in the future and says to themselves Ok $3500 (for last pair of Khorns same year on ebay selling price) that it might cost them more than they think to bring the speakers back to spec.
A quote from Steen Duelund
"From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better. A good sounding construction will be introduced from Jensen Capacitor in the near future". (An artificial stack foil, which regrettably only can be manufactured by hand for now.)
Steen likes caps "without plastics". (can't argue there) Older type caps. (can't argue there) Bigger is better. (can't argue there)
I am just saying I think the man is/was on to something and something BIG! (no plastic may be the key!)
Tony Gee said how his caps made things sound so real and super natural. |
Rauliruegas,
That may be so, but neither the Duelund VSFs in question or the Mundorfs are paper in oils, so I don't understand why that is brought up. |
Halcro
Yes, I use a Duelund 10.37 uF for example. I also value highly that you can get the exact value you need in one cap, inductor or resistor. |
Duelund Coherent Audio
to me
show details 2:16 PM (19 hours ago)
Reply
Volleyguy
I think the reason is that most air cores are made in the same way, quickly wound and done. However, the Duelunds are made in the same vein as their caps with a wet oil dielectricum which they are impregnated with under high pressure for several days. Supposedly this reduces unwant resonances in the inductor, which is very beneficial to the sound quality.
As I've said, I never use anything else, but the price difference is of course large compared to the Alpha Core.
The Duelunds are only made by Jensen insofar, that Duelund has access to the Jensen machinery (They are located in the same building) , otherwise they are as night and day especially soundwise, I own both types. The english Audio Notes are no longer made by Jensen, but I believe Kondo Audio Note (Japan) continues to use Jensen. Furthermore, they are no longer paper in oil, but use a plastic material (mylar). I firmly believe in the paper approach, but again each to his own, and Audio Note UK probably had their reasons. |
I e-mailed Duelund about the connection to Jensen and copy/pasted some of their info into my reply. Now it suddenly looks at if, they made the whole reply?
Sorry for any confusion. |
Dear Raul
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I said I do want the dynamics of the original caps. The Sonicaps clearly are NOT there and sound like a filter. I do like the Mundorf/Duelund more dynamic sound and do NOT consider that coloration.
I do agree that the Sonicaps are Nuetral by this I mean they do not favour the high or low freq. One could say that maybe the SIO has a upward tilt.
To Undertow
With the Mundorf size thing. Mundorf states that they are using basically 4x as much windings to get the same result of uf. To me I kept hearing from what I was reading Mundorf is boutique (kind of cap) meaning that it was wayyyy overpriced for what it was. I am just stating that Mundorf IS wayyyyyy more cap than standard and SHOULD cost more money. To me I can hear night and day when the Mundorf goes in (over Sonicap) a lifting of congestion. I think (but do not have facts) that the 4x the windings is able to store and release more electricity. When the Sonicap goes flat the Mundorf is still going. I think the Mundorf is WELL worth the money. It is Steen Duelund (who is an expert) not me who says the bigger the cap the better. (all things equal) So that Mundorf wound 4 caps into 1 SHOULD be better in my mind.
All I did say is I agree with Steen. Bigger is better. No plastic seems better as well. |
Dear Stormen: Yes I only refer to oil and in my experience the sound is " oily ".
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " All I did say is I agree with Steen. Bigger is better... " +++++
Only for your records: bigger means higher inductance that means higher distortion.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Dear Stormen: 10.37uf?, well that's great customer service: good.
regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Undertow I am very confused by your comments. You cap size has nothing to do with it yet admit that Mundorf is two caps in one in series yet many claim it to be more dynamic? The Mundorf IS more cap Mundorf claims 4 caps in one. Would 4 caps in one of the same style of caps not be more dynamic? Mundorf is basically 4 caps so why would it NOT be more dynamic.
I do not mean a big empty can would make a cap more dynamic but 4 caps in one??? Why not? I actually think Mundorf is quite a cap for the money and no wonder so many high end companies are using it. You get 4 caps in 1. Whatever electricity is stored in a Sonicap is stored 4 times over in a Mundorf correct? Either way I could no doubt "hear" congestion lifting by even one Mundorf. All I am saying to Undertow is I read a ton of stuff about caps and it was not being stressed to me enough just how much better they were for the money. I find some people discount anything that costs more as silly waste of money especially caps which have no glory. |
Undertow
Again I do not understand your comments against size by saying IF Sonicap made there caps two caps in one like Mundorf they would be as dynamic. To me you are agreeing with me as I agree with you IF Sonicap did this they MIGHT be as dynamic as Mundorf. That is all I said is the "current" Sonicap is not as dynamic as Mundorf but IF Sonicap wound 4 caps in 1 like Mundorf they might be as good.
This proves Steen's theory that all things being equal you want a bigger cap!
It is a good debate as I do not want to pay for "nothing" either but in the case of Mundorf there is CLEAR reasons why they cost more and why they are better. To me a Mundorf Supreme is a slam dunk worth the money in any speaker that is worth very much at all! |
Dear Raul
I am a rookie at this but like I said have owned the speakers for 30 years know what they sounded like and can hear. Of course it is my opinion because if all liked the same caps there would only be 1.
I do stand by my statement on dynamics as I read a lot about caps and no one talked about the dynamcis just smoothness etc.
Duelund's add false dynamics???? I would like to get more of that false dynamics then!
The Duelund's are exposing weakness in my system??? Well Partsconnexion says they are the top selling high end caps they have. Must be a lot of people with weak systems?
You keep saying the Duelund's are colored/distorted and say I am giving misinformation. The Duelund's may be "colored" (by your measurements) but distorted. Holy Crap that is the BEST my speakers ever sounded.
If I knew for sure the Duelund's would make that kind of differnce in the midrange I would be thrilled!
Raul I think you are confusing Nuetral with "flat". I can not imagine wanting to make music flat (like the Sonicaps do) |
As mentioned numerous times, you need to let the Sonic Caps break in before making a fair judgment on them. I would agree that they are neutral, but they definitely aren't flat. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++
This proves Steen's theory that all things being equal you want a bigger cap. +++++
Everything equal a bigger cap has higher inductance than generate higher distortion. So that does not proves anything
You can take the MIT caps ( that I think were the first commercial caps with multiple caps design. No it was not Mundorf. ) with almost similar design that the Mundorf and are a not so good cap, some people say are a crap and I say is not so good.
As good as Sonicaps are ( IMHO ) they are better running some in parallel, example if you need 16uf then use four Sonicaps of 4uf. This estrategy is valid with almost any cap.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
Stormen do you have any more writings by Steen?
Also have you heard the difference from the VSF and the CAST ones? I can't even imagine.
Does it cost more to get special values? I see a 10uf or 15uf is $337 or $379 so should I assume a 13uf is in the middle for cost?
This would be much more cost effective than a 10uf and 3uf. The combo totals $500.
I think I am going that way. I will order tomorrow.
I can't wait to hear the reviews of the CAST ones from Tony Gee and others to hear if it is even better.
I guess I could bypass with a small Mundorf if I think it is needed.
Stormen these things are not good though it can ruin one for any other kind of cap. (and ruin your wallet)
If all goes well there I will look later at their inductors.
Thanks Volleyguy
I have contacted Partsconnextion for the quote. The worst thing that will happen is I do not like the cap in the midrange but am thrilled with them in the tweeter and feel it to be worth every penny there. |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " read (on the net) it would be easy to replace the vintage caps as they were not very good compared to modern caps. I have found this simply to NOT be true " +++++
+++++ " I said I do want the dynamics of the original caps" +++++
Guess why? are the original better caps?, both statements are really learning when you answer the whys about you will understand the whole speaker crossover subject.
Regards and enjoy the music.
Raul. |
$500 for caps? Fostex t90a $300 pair, t900a under $800. With a just a solen would do better than the klipsch tweeter no mater what cap you use. With a mundorf silver gold even better.... |
Sorry Raul I do not understand what you are saying??? |
Johnk I can not say about the Fostex tweeter as I have not heard them. I have to replace my caps with out a doubt as they are worn out. I am going to do the caps first no doubt. I can very much look at new tweeters when the time comes. How do they blend in with the Klipsch drivers in the midrange? Are they both balanced out nicely? |
Talked to partsconnextion. 3-4 week for custom caps from Duelund. The cost is in between 10uf and 15uf.
The problem is I keep coming back to the Duelund/Supreme for the tweeters.
The high freq noise of the vintage caps (midrange) is taken away by the Supreme/Duelund combo. The problem with this is trying to assess how much distortion is coming through the mid cap and what it's affect is? I tried putting the Sonicap in the midrange for tuning purposes and they do reveal that my midrange caps are distorting which I am not surprised. On the other side the Sonicaps really hold back any of the gains of the Duelund/Mundorf. The whole speaker sounds flat with them.
I really think having the reference of original there is very valuable to anyone doing this. (if you basically like the original) You can keep coming back to them to see what it was you like and see what is the faults you do not like.
When you replace caps the first thing you notice is what you now have. When the Sonicaps went in (whole speaker) I noticed the lack of noise and went Wow! Then after awile you realise what you don't have. The dynamic live feel why I liked the speakers in the first place was gone. (why I put them up for sale is I thought new caps might not have it)
My options are 10uf Duelund paired with 3.3uf Supreme (and wonder would 13uf duelund be even better) or 13uf Duelund built and add a Supreme by later if needed?
To me I would think 10uf would give almost all that the Duelund could give and 3.3 Supreme could not lower it in any way.
I agree with Tempo on the Mundorf Supreme
"It is rich, detailed, and full-bodied, though a bit softer sounding than the Duelund VSF" (I feel slightly rougher sounding)
The softening in horns is not a bad thing!
I do love what the Duelund does with one tweeter cap but do not like the second? The problem is is the reason the worn midrange cap causing the problem? The connection is midrange to tweeter caps so for sure whatever the midrange cap does goes to the tweeter caps. Or is Tempo right run two types of caps on any circuit you can?
I have put the lonely SIO back in with the Mundorf Supreme for the weekend to burn some hours on it and to feel comfortable with the Mundorf Supreme order I am going to make on Monday.
For Klipsch guys in my opinion all three have the dynamics that as a Klipsch owner you are looking for. The Supreme is a screaming good deal. I guess there is a reason that cap dominates the OEM (higher end) market.
One thing for certain all three are very good caps! In my opinion you can not go wrong with any of the three. The Duelund's take you into uncharted territory that your Klipsch will have never sounded like!
Very excited about next week as I am almost certain to get off the shelf Duelund/Supreme combo for the mids. |
Supremes are alright the silver golds are much much better but costly. I mostly use silver oil or silver gold |
Johnk the reason I like the Supreme's over the SIO is just the tilt. The SIO (in my opinion a very good cap) but a slight (to me) unnatural focus on the high freq. I feel like all I listen to is the cymbals? The Supreme's are only a bypass cap to the Duelund's. (they so far take a slight edge off the Duelund's that may be caused by my vintage mid caps) What is the proper % of a cap to be the bypass cap? The Duelund is much more real for instruments.
While we were talking what is the price of your new horns? Going by latest e-bay sales the last set of same era Khorns (as my Lascala's) was $3500 plus shipping. Then you have to spend on the crossovers and in my mind Mundorf Supreme is absolute minimum. (to compare to vintage) Then you may want to rewire. So for a person who does not already own Klipsch (like me) and had to pay for very costly shipping and a lot of $ in crossover especially Duelund or the more costly Mundorf. You could have easy $6k+ into a set of Khorns. Are yours around that range and are they better? (I am sure you do believe in yours or else you wouldn't be selling them) |
A friend of mine had the Silver Gold/Oil installed in his phono stage and he thought it a huge improvement. (from the Supreme's that were there)
I am not sure why the Supreme's are working so well with Duelund's for me? Could be a combintation of them being somewhat softer/quieter. They do take the slight white noise with the two Duelund's away and make the sound more enjoyable. I just do not know if the noise from the second Duelund (in the tweeter) is caused by the worn out vintage mid cap or is something that will be there if I go strictly Duelund in the midrange?
That is why I have been guessing/trying to figure out would I be better to go 13uf Duelund on the assumption that it will take out the white noise? or 10uf Mundorf and 3.3uf Supreme with it's softer sound?
The white noise from the tweeter caps is what caused the rebuild in the first place. That is how I knew the caps were done is much higher noise. The mids could easily being sending noise to the tweeters. Then the (two) Duelund's just shows it to be there. (the Supreme just take the white noise away) |
Dear Volleyguy: +++++ " Sorry Raul I do not understand what you are saying??? " +++++
Sorry to hear that because that's all about. Good luck !
regards and enjoy the music.
raul. |
Just came back from listening to my "main" system. The Linn speakers who before the tweeter cap upgrade (in the Klipsch) were completely above the Klipsch. (past posts)
Now I am shocked at the Duelund differnce. Makes even very good caps sound rough. The slight white noise has gone away and I will do the Duelund/Supreme test again to make sure.
On Monday I will order the 13uf Duelund. I am very excited to see what that can do for the midrange. That is going to be a tough few weeks of wait!
I might just have to get the Duelund inductor for the woofer in the mean time.
Stormen I can see why you just don't even bother with any other company.
Stormen I view these caps as perfection but they must not be as the cast costs more and must be even better? I can't even imagine! |
I did find more interesting reads on Steen on the Duelund website. That he made all his findings public for everyone to use to improve audio shows where his heart was.
The sound is mind staggering. Stormen please come on and tell me the CAST ones are not much better! I find myself going and looking at them far too much!
Like both Tony Gee and Tempo said you can't even imagine how good they must be???? |
Volleyguy,
I find the CAST clearly superior. I know that some who use the CAST now consider the VSFs defective in comparison. I don't know if I would go that far, but they are quite something. They do require at least 14 days of break in to sound their best as they are a little dark in the treble at first, but oh my god, when they break in... |
Thanks Stormen I was afraid you would say that! I am looking to get the inductor in cast. Would that make sense? Duelund's cheaper inductor is not solid so I can see a big difference there? (possible vibration)
I have found even the VSF's needed some break-in. The first was a revalation the 2nd in the circuit took a little while to settle in.
Yesterday I actually went up to the speaker to cup the tweeter to see if working. There is no grain letting you know it is on.
I have said to friends about Steen's feelings on 50% of the speaker in the crossover and 25% of the system. The response is generally a little hostile to the notion to say the least. I do find ideas in audio are slow to change. Linn when they came out with the Keel people (Linn people) wnet crazy at the cost.
Yet Linn did the double test of cheap Adikt $500 Akito $1500 tonearm Keel $2700 (I think) was better than Akiva $3500 Ekos SE $5k
By this I just mean people were Ok with an expensive cartridge Ok with a costly tonearm but in principle against a costly piece of aluminum. I think the same thoughts go against caps and inductors.
I own a Adikt and would put the money into even better caps than a Akiva as the caps last a very long time. |
Personally, I would contact Klipsch. They have a website and a customer service department. You probably could send the problem part back to them with their guidance. I would be leary of do it yourself projects. Your speakers are very good as you attest, and you don't want surprises after spending lots of money and time in do it yourself treatments. My first taste of high fidelity was in the late 50's. I am a violinist, and in high school, I hooked up with the Shapiro's..a very musical family for an evening of string quartet playing. Old man Shapiro was a physician and had a Klipschorn (mono) driven by Marantz tube equipment. I still can remember Marche Slav powering through those huge speakers.. I was hooked. |
Hi Stringreen
I have contacted Klipsch to buy replacement crossovers of the originals. Klipsch does not sell caps for them. They sent me to the aftermarket guys like Bob Crites, Dean and Al K. All very nice guys. I did buy Bob's Sonicaps as a replacment.
I am only replacing the parts with same value parts and quality of original or better. The Duelund's are the first caps to make me forget the originals in every way.
I too was hooked the first time I heard Khorns. I have owned the Lascala's for almost 30 years and was almost in tears when the caps went bad. The Duelund's are a no plastic cap and better the originals (at least in the tweeters and mids are coming) in EVERY way!
Stringreen it is stringed instruments that sound out of this world! I used to play Viola (school orchestra long time ago) and since the caps are changed I am spending a lot of time playing air viola! |
Cap order is in for 13uf VSF Duelund. I am like my kids in counting the sleeps!
Stormen I will need two more caps for tweeters and am looking at the CAST ones for the tweeters. I am very curious? I will be only using one CAST a side (but I am going to test two to see the difference) as I own the VSF's already. Is that where you would put the money in the first place would be in the tweeter as that is the toughest to get right? |
Duelund makes custom orders like the 13uf I am getting and the price is just the cap value price.
Kind of itching to get on with this and order the rest of the parts. But the Duelund is not cheap so I do want to make sure it gives the improvement in the midrange that they do in the tweeters.
Only question is will I do the inductors? The vintage caps were worn out no doubt so the improvement is HUGE but the inductors do not wear so it is only a quality improvement.
After the mid cap and if all goes well I will order 2 CAST tweeter caps and the other mid cap and be done for now.
I can not even comprehend the CAST caps? The VSF's exceeded my wildest expectations and can not understand the improvement on them? |
I will do much more burn in on the Mundorf's. They are around 50hrs and will burn them into several hundred as I am curious to how they eventually settle. I also want to know for future use in possibly replacing the caps in my other speakers. They may be more cost effective as I am unsure how much $ I would want to spend on them.
Right now the Duelund's make my other speakers unlistenable. So that is the downside that one may want to consider, the speakers you thought OK will sound awful after Duelund becomes your reference. |
It would be relatively inexpensive to try Alphacore air-core foil inductors. Cannot be certain, but it's likely that the sonic difference between ACore and your stock inductors is greater than the difference between ACore and D inductors. ACore sound really good. I believe they also make them in silver. What does Chris at PcX say, as he carries both manufacturers?
As someone mentioned above, alternative tweets might be the best spend. |
Dgarretson
I have talked to Chris about this as Alpha Core was top on my list.
He did say they sell many more D caps than inductors. I can not comment on the Alpha Core compared to vintage. In my mind one would want to spend more on tweeter caps than woofer inductors as the high freq is so much harder to get right.
Stormen where are you? Stormen did say the difference was big in inductors. The Duelund is certainly much better built as it is CAST and has zero vibration.
I do hear where you are coming from dgarretson. I remember reading somewhere in some Linn writings about vinyl and the stylus and how much tougher it was to pick up say a violin freq compared to a bass freq. The magnitude was shocking! It lead you to believe that you could error much more on the low freq than high.
So my next $ after mid caps are to try the CAST tweeter caps. If all goes well I may just buy the CAST inductor more out of repect to Duelund (for what they have done to my system) than any real gain coming. (compared to Alpha Core)
I can say the Duelund's have made my other speakers unlistenable. I am ticked in that sense that I wanted a system for the livingroom (and got one) as my Klipsch will never get there (they are in the basement) as my wife hates the looks of them. (can't blame her)
I am a LP12 fan and was planning on getting a Trampolin II maybe next and did believe the Linn theory that source is the most important.
I now have moved any Linn upgrades down below new caps for the Linn speakers. I also have doubts on Linn's cost effective Aktiv upgrades. I know they work. They do electronic crossover and remove the passive ones. I am just wondering if say Mundorf Supreme caps could do the same thing for wayyyyy less cost then two more expensive amps and crossovers?
I have moved into Steen's line of thinking. I have been there actually for awhile. (as I enjoy my Klipsch with vintage tube amp and fairly cheap CD player better than the better source better pre and better amp as the speakers seem the weak link) Linn's theory is good source cheap speakers beats poorer source better speakers. I do not know if I agree with that anymore. (well I know I don't)
Steen's with 50% of the system being the speakers. (Johnk you have to like that!) Steen saying that 50% of the speaker should be the crossover just upsets people!
So Dgarretson you may be right that AlphaCore inductors might be almost as good? But should we treat crossovers so lightly in this hobby? or is Steen right? I know you guys have not heard it and can be skeptical but I know I will never treat crossover (and caps) as some non important issue. In my mind the crossover has moved wayyyy up in importance. |
Volleyguy...for heaven's sake, get out your viola and old music and play. Air viola is for sissy's. You have the ability, the knowledge, and the gear...go to it!! |
Stringreen it has been a long time since I played. In the air I can still sound pretty good! Stringreen I can't even read music anymore can't even help my daughter with her piano.
But I do have the caps that make a viola sound like a viola! To be honest until those caps went in I never played "air viola/violin" as I find most speakers leave a lot to be desired with stringed instruments. The vintage caps in Eleanor Rigby the cello dominates over the violin. (barely heard) On the Duelund's the Violin player is clearly the star. (hence me playing "air violin" everyone want to be the star just kidding) There is even a pair of violin's behind the main player and behind that the cello or ('s) It was that song that left me sold on Duelund's which were "light years" better than the vintage caps and left me wondering how much am I missing?
I expect the mids to not be as huge as change and woofer inductors even less just because it is tougher the higher the freq. |
Volleyguy, I use copper foil througout my system, in various widths & thicknesses for ICs and speaker cables, and also the large Alphacores as 95kHz 18db/octave HF filter in my modded CDP. Yes foils sound great. Yes composition of dielectrics and natural vs. synthetic materials can be important. However, that crossover is starting to look like a Viking stove in tract housing. Do whatever you want--we are all drawn to exotic things-- but don't be surprised that a manufacturer of exotic crossover parts holds to the philosophy that a crossover is the heart of a hi-fi system. Conserve resources for other areas. |
Dgarretson.
I do take with a grain of salt what the manufacture says of what is important. I know Linn said source was everything as they had top rated sources. (so of course they would say that)
I do not know what the mid caps will do. But I have put resources into other areas such as Lingo power supply, Cirkus bearing, Ekos MkII tonearm (better pre-amps and amps) and not one thing I have done has been as big as the caps. So is it exotic or cost effective upgrading? One thing I can say is I believe Steen was very much an audiophile than a guy looking to make a ton of money. The fact that he gave away all of his findings saying he would not be able to bring them all to commercialization lets you know where his heart was.
Dgarretson I do believe that him saying 25% of a system should be in the crossover is controversial. (who else has ever said such a number!) It does open things up to good healthy debate as to where we should put our money in audio. No matter what audio is surely better when guys like him question what is the excepted norm.
Dgarretson if by saying a Viking Stove in track housing you mean to much $ into the crossover realitive to the rest of system?
If one spent (based on new prices) set of Khorns $8k a $3k source $3k pre $3k amp and wires IC etc you would have $20k into a system. The you put in a $200 crossover network. So that would be 1% of the budget. Is that not like putting $29 Walmart tires on a Ferrari???
When you say exotic to me that means crazy amounts of money for realitively small improvements. Audio is filled with that stuff! $10k cartridges that don't sound any different than $3k ones. (at least to me) I assure you I have no interest or money for that! I am only spending until I stop hearing huge improvemnts. If I order the CAST Duelund's and they fail to improve the system to the point where I feel I would have been better with money elsewhere I will be the first to admit it. |
Dgarretson
I have taken to heart what you said. I am going to burn in the Mundorf products for the next couple weeks. That will help determine is the $ improvement the best bang for the buck of anything I could do.
You are right one Duelund was huge improvement, two in same same circuit does not double performance but almost double's cost. (over Mundorf Supreme) You are right that there may be another area where $'s are better spent than second Duelund. Johnk says better tweeters. I will be ready with all caps fully burned in by the time the mid caps come over from Denmark. |
Volleyguy, the question becomes-- given other constraints in the Klipsch-- how far is it worth taking these speakers without looking at new drivers, or even more fundamentally, evaluating the absolute potential of Klipsch relative to more recent stock or tweaked designs. I know it is your mission to find out how far these speakers can go. But at this point, if the thread is worth continuing, it would be nice to hear your praise of Duelund in context of the running costs of the Duelund upgrade, and in context of all other components in your system.
For example, in my own(balanced) system, from end-to-end I have substituted about 16 critical coupling caps (V-Caps TFTF & Mundorf Silver/Gold) in four line-level and amp components-- and I have yet to experiment with the speaker cross-overs. Notwithstanding your advocacy of speakers & source as making the greatest difference, all these changes in caps were "revelatory." So I'm saying look at the system as a whole. As expensive as these crossover parts are, if they come to as much as 25% of total system value, then doubtless you're missing major opportunities to make meaningful upgrades elsewhere. |
Dgarretson, I guess it comes down to how good do I think the basic Klipsch design is? I believe very good. Arthur Salvatore website's eval's new and vintage gear. He only recomends three vintage speakers. The highest of all is the Khorn. This is competing against speakers costing many times more. (some up to 100k)
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Vintage.html#Other
quote from him
"Only three speaker designs of the distant past can hold up to todays models in my opinion, the original Quad Electrostatic, the KLH Model Nine Electrostatic and the post 1970's Klipschorn"
He had moved the Khorns down from (the very strict credentials) to Class C (upper) from Class B. (by far the cheapest speaker in the range)
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Speakers.html#ClA
Arthur does say at some point he would love to hear a all out set of Khorns. Well I can assure a Duelund set is MILES better than any stock one. Enough to move them back up to Class "A" I am not sure but it is huge!
Dgarretson, I can hear your snicker at my system being not "balanced".
I am very much a person who believes in balance not $. My system as I said was an LP12, Lingo, Cirkus, Ekos II and Adikt. I know Linn guys who say why do you have a cheap (realative) cartridge on such an expensive arm. My answer is that is what the dealer has recomended to keep in "balance" and that a Keel would be better money spent than expensive MC. My pre is a Linn Kairn which is made to work with the amp which is a Linn Klout and the Lp12. Those three were made for each other. My IC are all Linn my speaker wire is all Linn.
So do I seem like a guy who goes nuts in one area? My system would be text book balanced by Linn. (the sound I like) My main speakers (well they were my main) were Linn as well. Do I think them the greatest speakers no! But a well balanced system will deliver much more for much less $. (everything single thing I own was made to work in unison with the other component)
I am a very cautious person who does not go off half cocked on a crazy idea. I really believe Steen was on to something here with the crossover being of immense importance. |
Duelund in the context of other upgrades?
Dgarretson I have had one Duelund and one Supreme (both with 60hrs by now) I switched back to two Duelunds and the difference is very big indeed.
Instruments sound much, much more real and you lose an etched sound you get with the Supreme's.
Comparable from going from the NAD CD player ($600) to Linn Karik. The Karik is not worth much today so on a cost basis it is not expensive either. So if you compare another set of Duelund caps vs. a new Karik $3k+ (new) slam dunk, new caps. If you compare to a used $500-$700 Karik it is more interesting but I would still go for the caps. The Karik's are cheap and no longer in service by Linn and could break at any time and be largely worthless. I would hope the cap upgrade last for 20 years. (I used to think the Karik quite lousy compared to LP12 and it collected dust mostly)
What the caps do is make things sound more focused and wayyyy more real.
I would be real curious to here the person who put in Duleund's and thought them good but not worth the $? |
To the matter of proportion I can only say I have heard Karik & Karik/Numerik-- these are very long-in-the-tooth by today's standards. Even by Linn's definition the Adikt is an entry-level MM cartridge and Kiarn & Klout are middle-of-the-road. The system would not look out of balance were Duelunds not AAA+++ both in price & performance. You're hearing large differences between crossover caps, but the question remains whether even greater and perhaps more cost-effective improvements could be made elsewhere in the chain-- in turn reveal more tellingly the characteristics of those crossover caps. As to Salvatore's website-- always interesting-- but as occasionally explored over on AA, there may be conflicts of interest.
Anyway, enjoy the experiment. I'm jealous as hell that I don't have a fist-full of Duelunds to play with. |
I can not argue much with you at all on the Karik. Like I said myself I did not think it really that good at all. It was so far below my LP12 and I did not have the funds to pursue two top end front ends. Yes the Adikt is entry level cartridge but Linn's advice is Keel/Akito (much cheaper arm than mine)/Adikt. Linn says this betters no Keel Ekos MKII Akiva. So following their line get the table up to snuff then arm then cartridge.
The Kairn is a 2003 or 04 one of the last made. So the Kairn to be much bettered would be the Klimax and that would be a big jump. The Klout is very highly regarded (amongst Linnies) and was the flagship amp until Klimax came out and still holds up quite well today.
As for the Duelund's being rated AAA++ and better than everything else I have, I can not argue there either. But it makes the crossover a area I do not have to go back to and upgrade later because it has become a weakness.
One thing that I do feel comfortable with is I do love the speakers as I have had them for almost 30 years and with this I hope to get another 20 years out of them. So 50 years out of the same speakers is not bad? I have friends who have went through tons of speakers.
Thanks Dgarretson
Make it on your list of things to do is to try even just one cap in your crossover (tweeter) and tell me if you can go back? There was a guy long ago on this thread said (to me) you at least owe it to yourself to at least hear a Duelund. Now I am singing the same tune. |
Dgarretson, Do you know anyone who has tried there IC's?
I am NOT getting them as I will be tapped out for awhile but just curious.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?cablintr&1222474219 |
