I understand your frustration, but I have some different thoughts about your comments.
1. Yes, shippers suck. But not very much. They are large corporate monsters and they can't help it.
2. Almost all sellers suck. That is, most sellers can't pack a piece of audio gear worth a damn. Wrapping a turntable into a trash bag and loosely packed in an oversize box 2/3 filled with packing peanuts is not good packing. And sellers need to understand that until the item I paid for arrives safely at my address AND I have unpacked and inspected the item, the sale is not completed.
If, as happened to the OP, the package arrives at the wrong address - not my (the buyers) problem. If it arrives damaged - not my fault. If it doesn't work (assuming that I'm an honest guy, like all of us here on A'gon 😁) - not my fault.
3. PayPal and I believe eBay require a seller to provide tracking information, purchase insurance and require a signature upon delivery. If not then the seller is required to reimburse the buyer within a fixed (short) amount of time following request for a refund, whether the seller is compensated by the shipper or not.
4. Ask the seller to provide you a photo of the unit, ready for shipping with the box open. If the packing is clearly deficient then void the sale and ask the seller for a refund if your payment has been processed. You don't need to accept crappy packing which almost always results in a damaged or inoperative product.
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You had a bad experience, so nobody else should use a shipping service. OK....
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I am not doubting that the unit was packed to survive the trip; my point was that even though it was clear UPS had delivered the package to the wrong address, I'm still out of my money because PayPal's unbending rule is that if the shipper shows a package was delivered (even if it was the wrong address), they will not make a refund. The seller not only got my money for the purchase of the unit, UPS paid HIM when he filed a claim for a lost package. It is like trying to fight a cloud.
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Hard to believe an ebay seller with a 99.8 rating would double rip you off. I'd like to hear the other side of the story.
I've also, as a seller and a buyer, worked with paypal many times and they never told me "too bad, you lose".
Jerry
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I always use FedEx, never UPS.
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1. UPS truck pulled into my driveway on July 15th to deliver the package, but driver could not find it on truck. 2. Received message from ebay that delivery had been rescheduled for Monday, July 17. 3. On that Monday morning, got another ebay message that package had been delivered . I was home, and it was not delivered, at least not here. 4. Informed the seller of both events as they happened, and he promised to refund my money. Never heard from him again. 5. Filed a claim with PayPal - they checked with the seller, who gave them the tracking info. I guess they checked the number and saw that it was delivered, and that was that. Claim denied. I found out around Labor Day where the package had been delivered to, and went to the address. It was a business (warehouse) that takes in hundreds of packages each week, but nothing from private individuals. Even talked to the guy who UPS said had signed for the package. He didn't remember it. Those are the facts.
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I buy all my high value audio products from a dealer. I receive about two packages via Fed Ex or UPS, or USPS a day, for many years. Once every year or two a package gets delivered to the wrong address. Once every couple of years a package gets a bit mangled… only once or twice in the last ten years has that resulted in a refund.
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the problem is not how often things go wrong. It’s when they go wrong, the customer is screwed. To get through to UPS with a complaint requires an IQ of 160 and communications skills of a university professor and the patience of a turtle, then, maybe then you have a 10% chance. Otherwise, forget it, everyone at the other end of the line is a robot (not literally - yet) reading from a script with the purpose of causing so much stress to the customer that s/he will give up.
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I get stuff shipped to me via various carriers. The key is packing and palletizing.
Bespoke shipping- the guy with the Halliburton case handcuffed to his wrist tends to cost. I once inquired about shipping jewelry- not something that is easily dealt with as a citizen, but the dealers know how to do it. I rely on DHL Express for records outside of the US--I typically get them in 5 days.
Ditto, Japanese post-priority. Fast.
But for gear, you have to take extra precautions. Part of it depends on the sender to do it right. When I had my old Quad Loudspeakers restored, Kent McCollum shipping me good packing, then arranged for UPS ground to pick them up-- the UPS guy palletized the packed boxes, and when Kent was done, they were shipped to my new location in Texas. Not a problem.
With Lamm, they use wooden shipping crates with custom foam. Require air freight. Thankfully, I have not had to do that- I used to be in NY metro and would drive them over to Vlad (RIP).
It can be done without issues. I had a friend who used to ship multi-sk-zillion vintage racing cars all over the world. Same deal- palletized, shipped as air freight. Lord only knows what that costs now, used to be 5k one way. You don't need to spend like that to ship a piece of gear, but packing and palletizing is key in my estimation.
Bill Hart
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Amen, grislybutter! UPS customer interface protocol is designed to confuse, confound, and perplex anyone with a complaint to the point that they just give up. I consider myself to be fairly intelligent, and I was like a blind man in a maze when I tried to find an answer to what had happened.
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On Friday July 19th of this year I purchased a Conrad Johnson GAT S1 from The Music Room. In the deal they agreed to pay for next day shipping via Fed-X to the company I run (not my home) because we have a receiving dock and a receiving team ready to sign for items arriving. My rationale for next day delivery vs ground is because there are fewer stops along the way with fewer changes of transports. So I thought. On Monday morning July 22nd the package was at my local Fed-X center and then on the truck for delivery between 10:00 AM and 1:00 PM. At 11:05 I checked and the Fed-X tracking stated that it had been delivered and signed for a by "W.Brown". Problem is, no such person works for me. I went to my receiving dept, ant indeed Fed-X Express had not been by and I did not have my package, even though Fed-X showed it as delivered. TMR was notified and Fed-X entered an investigation. After nothing for two days, miraculously a man showed up in our lobby with my package. He informed my receptionist that he works at a warehouse nearby and the Fed-X driver had dropped it off there with multiple other packages. Thanks to this good gentleman, my CJ GAT shoed up unopened, unmolested, safe and sound. The next day, Fed-X notified TMR that the package had been found. Lesson learned by me: Have packages held for me to pick up at the Fed-X distribution center two streets away from my company and do not let their drivers touch it.
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That is exactly what happened to me, but the recipient in my case was not trustworthy, so you are one lucky duck!
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With FedEx or UPS, do your due diligence and hope for the best. If you want extra care; pay bit more, palletize and ship it via FedEx Freight. High value content, opt for signature required. Even then, no guarantees. If you’re OCD about the shipping and condition of the component, buy from a reputed retailer.
I have been buying and selling components over 20 years and almost in all instances, buyer don’t wanna pay fees or shipping cost. If you wanna cheap out as buyer, don’t expect seller to go extra mile for you. It’s a business transaction, both parties must feel good about the transaction…discuss and set expectations prior to finalizing a sale.
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Amen,
Always insist on signature required and insurance.
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@awise1961
Insurance through FedEx and UPS is worthless. When it comes to paying up, they will do all possible to accept any responsibility. Your best insurance is packaging, pack well to the point that box can withstand 3 stories drop or palletize your shipment, almost a requirement for anything weighs over 75lbs. A good measure is, if you can’t lift the box yourself comfortably, it ain’t going to be handled with care.
My UPS driver is a skinny dude, weighs no more than 110lbs. You can do the math. Both UPS / FedEx drivers don’t use any equipment during unloading the boxes :-)
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With our ubiquitous cameras, the delivery companies should be offering photo evidence of delivery. Amazon often does it and the food delivery companies almost always do.
They could have body mounted cameras and take a photo of the building location or person it's left with. That photo could show up as a text to sender and recipient in seconds.
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The past two years I’ve been using a local packaging and shipping service that caters to both residential and commercial, nationally and internationally. What I’ve learned from our conversations is that it doesn’t matter if it’s UPS or FedEx - both will attempt to deny an insurance claim, and claims are denied all the time.
For example, if sending a used component with original packaging and box, and the component becomes damaged during shipment: you didn’t provide adequate packaging as the original yet used cardboard box is considered to have “lost integrity” after initial shipment. The suggestion is to double box with peanuts between the cardboard boxes while ensuring that the component has no breathing room in the original box which would allow it to move around. The packaging should be tight and the outer box should be new per my local packaging service.
In a nutshell: package as if you’re expecting either FedEx or UPS is going scrutinize and put your packaging under a microscope to justify denial of an insurance claim.
From personal experience of working in a UPS hub in college, it doesn’t matter if there’s a “handle with care” or “fragile” on the outside of a box. If you’re under a time crunch, which is almost always the case, those labels will often be overlooked or not seen. Loading trailers in a hub is one of the harder jobs in those companies.
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Good point on 'Fragile' stickers on packages - they have about as much impact as the old 'Baby On Board' decals do/did. Choice of packing materials and double-boxing are the most critical factors in the shipping equation, IMO. Maybe a sticker saying 'Shake Me Up/Throw Me Around' would somehow induce appropriate care on the package's journey.
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@awise1961 said:
I checked and the Fed-X tracking stated that it had been delivered and signed for a by "W.Brown". Problem is, no such person works for me. I went to my receiving dept, ant indeed Fed-X Express had not been by and I did not have my package, even though Fed-X showed it as delivered.
Besides delivering to the wrong address, the other problem I've seen repeatedly is drivers lying about having obtained the proof of delivery signature. I used to collect / resell wines from cult wineries as a hobby. FedEx and UPS would both routinely put $2000+ worth of wine in my electricity meter cabinet in a large city, mark it as signed for, even though I wasn't home for delivery, and even though it's against federal law to deliver shipped alcohol without a signature. I've watched them do it on footage from my Nest cam.
It's a calculated risk on their part: Do I waste time (and lower the productivity metrics on which I am evaluated) by attempting another delivery later? Or just mark it as signed and the company takes the hit if something happens? Easy choice for the drivers...
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No they put the fork lift through my wislon maxx.
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They are like all insurance .deny
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