cleeds,
I agree, but do notice that tapes were not backed up to another tape but to entirely different (even allegedly inferior) format. That is saying something.
Maybe 10 years ago, a few more or less, I asked a person at the radio station to copy a reel of tape with some of the music my friends made in high school (pure nostalgia, nothing spectacular). Basically, to transfer the only existing record of that into some other format.
"Great, you came at the last moment. If you came five years from now, I probably could not do it. We have transferred all that we have into digital just in case and tape machines have been dying in the process. We have only one that is good now."
Sure, he could have them fixed, but it seems that they had, more or less, abandoned the format. By the way, it is a well-funded and quite serious radio station. Not a garage project.
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glupson
... notice that tapes were not backed up to another tape but
to entirely different (even allegedly inferior) format. That is saying
something Backing up the tapes to digital makes perfect sense, because dubbing them onto another reel will only add noise.
Maybe 10 years ago ... I asked a person at the radio
station to copy a reel of tape ... "Great,
you came at the last moment. If you came five years from now, I
probably could not do it. We have transferred all that we have into
digital ... "
... it seems that they had, more or less, abandoned the format.
By the way, it is a well-funded and quite serious radio station. In the US, broadcasting is a business, even for non-commercial stations. Analog tape is an inefficient, expensive, cumbersome format for radio, so of course most stations abandoned reel-to-reel. The industry has also mostly abandoned cart machines (remember them?) and analog tape for phone delay. |
cleeds,
I agree with, pretty much, everything you say. However, my points were aiming at the fact argued along this thread that R2R is thriving and not dying. Even the Italian poster’s informative description of revamped machines shows the opposite is happening. They redid their machines only to make more viable back-up.
For a handful of enthusiasts, R2R may be the best thing ever and there is no arguing about its merits but, as a format in general, it has deceased some decades ago. All of the references about parts involve eBay. Proof that it is great is a picture, or two, of a description of specific tapes from more than thirty years ago. It is, in fact, defunct on any significant scale. Together with a dial phone.
Nothing to do with R2R, but the radio station I was mentioning was non-USA located, completely non-commercial with, seemingly, unlimited resources to waste. To the dismay of local crowd that is forced to fund it, but that is a different topic altogether. They, to this day, have occasional orchestra performances in the studio. Just for the heck of it. Speaking of (in)convenience.
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As a small interesting piece, a person who signed off (who signed the arrival of it to the record company and was eventually a responsible "editor") on one of the topoxforddoc’s reels of tape has a story to tell... "Despot attended recording sessions of The Beatles’ Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band (London, 1967), Rolling Stones’ Let It Bleed (London, 1969), Pink Floyd’s Ummagumma (London, 1969) and Arsen Dedić’s Homo volans (Zagreb, 1973)." |
It’s amazing of the loyalty to a type of media format and we ALL have opinions of which each of us like one over another
yes R2R format became cassettes then CD Now it’s all on I micro chip 1000s of songs on the size of s finger nail.
Now we all sit back and wait for the next innovation. And will type away and talk about that I will stay with my R2R tape. vinyl records and tubes for my amp snd preamp until these supples are no longer available
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Topoxforddoc, George Michael is a waste of good r2r tape. |
"Now we all sit back and wait for the next innovation." Our wait is over. It is called "streaming". |
Lmao.
Nice one Glupson.
Now excuse me while I go read up on Elcaset some more ..... |
Streaming is 3 or more years old
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If they had made 7 1/2 ips Elcasets that would have been perfect! |
Next they will implant a device in your head and you will think of a song and it will play for you
I will still play my analog media |
Help me out. Is it true that streaming is for folks who gave up? Yes, I know they say hi res. 😬
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Bummer, I'm considering a Pioneer RT 707 for my system. Really just for looks, I mean you can't beat the look? Gorgeous. Stunning, bla, bla, bla... But do I really want to spend $500 - $100 for something to 'pretty up' my rack? |
uberwaltz, "Now excuse me while I go read up on Elcaset some more ....." So you are the one slowing that Elcaset website I am reading. Now, sleepwalker65 gave me another homework with that TEAC open cassette. I did not forget about it. I never knew about it. After all of this, 8-track seems like a mundane mainstream these days. Not to mention R2R. It is like a fledgling teenager. |
"Next they will implant a device in your head and you will think of a song and it will play for you" Not so long ago, I told it to another person and he said "Well, they already have that. It is called...drugs." |
"...do I really want to spend $500 - $100 for something to 'pretty up' my rack?" Yes, you do. |
Just think how you could fill an additional rack up.
Sony Elcaset.
Sony DAT machine.
Sony Minidisc.
Teac open cassette.
Pioneer 8 track.
The mind boggles at the living museum of obsolete technology/media you could create.
Yes that lot makes regular cassette and r2r seem almost mundane in comparison. |
Glupson,
The links are to my scans of the tape labels. The Mary Chain is the original Jugoton distribution master, sent to the former Yugoslavia. As I know Alan McGee, Jim & William Reid well, they have signed my master. The George Michael is a safety copy from a CBS Netherlands distribution/production master.
If you look hard enough, you can find little gems. There are quite a few distribution/production masters in circulation. Don’t forget in the heyday of the vinyl LP, there were lots of countries with record pressing plants. They all needed a tape sent from the record company to cut the lacquer for their own market. When the record plants closed, many of these tapes survived.
Charlie
PS Sleepwalker - the George Michael tape is stunning. My friend Chalkie Davies was his tour photographer in 1982. He said that he was an utterly charming guy. Yes, it’s the polar opposite to the Mary Chain, but I happen to like lots of different music styles. |
topoxforddoc,
I, kind of, figured out what that Jesus and Mary Chain tape was but, at the same time, am not sure what distribution master fully meant. If it is any kind of master that certain company (distributor in this case) got to work with, why was it given/sold away?
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In the days when tape and vinyl ruled the roost, the record companies would send a production/distribution master tape to Yugoslavia, South Africa, Mexico or wherever, so that records could be pressed for the local market. In due course, they sent hard discs, and now it gets sent over the internet.
When the record pressing plants closed, as everyone went to CD, the tapes got put in a dumpster/skip, or alternatively people took them away. The record companies had no desire to retrieve all these tapes, as they had nowhere to store them. Anyway, the record companies already had the original multitrack and stereo mix down in a vault. |
topoxforddoc, That is interesting. Giving away "originals" seems unusual for a record company when even hobbyists (as your example here shows) are considering them as good as it gets. Could it be that such a tape was, practically, stolen from the company while nobody was paying much attention? That particular place’s vault was not much of a vault, but it was enthusiastically taken care of. Not that you can find it out now, but it would be interesting to know which ways, and when, did the tape travel before it reached you. This is, it seems, what you are talking about... http://www.museumofmastertapereels.org/introduction.htmlAs you mention, it used to be tapes, then it was hard drives, now it may be Internet. As good as tapes may sound, vinny55 may be right, they are obsolete. Not for hobbyists, for everything else. |
Thanks for the welcome! On a publication, if I am not mistaken the National Recording Preservation Board, at the beginning of the new millennium it was estimated that about 80% of human knowledge understood as music, data, writings, etc. it was still recorded and stored in analog form (vinyl records, magnetic tapes, etc.). So the problem for RAI but also for the competition is that of the enormous amount of data to be transferred and that is why they have taken all the available machines out of the warehouses. Furthermore, there are many problems of degradation and poor preservation of analogue media that require very slow and delicate technologies to read them and then digitize them.
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Glupson,
I think you have got a bit confused about the "vault". Sony, Warners, BMG all have vast temperature and humidity controlled vaults, where they keep the original multi-track and stereo mix down MASTERS. These never leave the record company.
Copies (in their hundreds) were made by the record company and sent all around the world to record pressing plants. When these record pressing plants went bust in the 80/90s, the copies (production/distribution masters) were just put into skips/dumpsters. Some of these got rescued, preserved, and now find their way onto the market.
Charlie |
topoxforddoc,
I think I understand now where it came from and what copy it was. It was as close of a copy as a local distributing company could get to the original and it served as that to make actual records. That would make it, for all practical purposes, an "original" for that local pressing plant. That is what is puzzling me, why would they give it away? I know it may be impossible to find out about each particular tape. It just does not seem expected.
As life gives us surprises where we would never expect them, I got stuck with that particular tape of yours as it brings back a few memories. I visited that room a couple of times and I believe I might have been in it at the same time your tape was (just passing through as a curiosity, not much else). Remembering people there, it is hard for me to imagine they just threw the stuff away. Who knows, maybe they did.
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topoxforddoc, Thanks to Google, I found this website you are certainly familiar with. Clicking on pictures makes it even more confusing. All the available tapes are from very short period. Roughly 1987-1993. Nothing that I could find from decades before that. I did not check those with no pictures, though. Almost like someone decided that nothing after 1987 was worth keeping and everything before that was too good to be thrown away. Puzzling. All are on the same tape (Agfa PER 528) which was probably the standard of the day but I wonder if every major company had really used only those to send to the local pressing plants. https://www.mastertapes.eu/jugoton-masters#myCarousel |
I own a Tandberg 9000X and Technics 1500, both fine decks. However, I rarely use them anymore other than playback. The Tandberg was used until the mid-80s to make very fine recordings. However, LPs and CDs are just too convenient and only the LP cartridge wears out (the lasers I've had last 5,000+ hours) and now approach 15 ips RR quality. I use a digital recorder since the 2000s and have used DAT prior to that for recording transfers. Most of my pre-recorded RR from the 60s and 70s are inferior to well mastered and pressed LPs and often well mastered CDs. I have some 50s pre-recorded RRs that are amazingly good but transferred them to CD via the Alesis Masterlink. I've appraised many sound studios and found some rockers prefer RR from the 90s to the present time. They can also afford using RR instead of digital (some major bands). |
Like Vinyl, analog tape is of course and older technology. Is it dead, well that depends on your perspective. I have a VPI turntable, Wadia digital, Tuner, and Revox A77. This is of course a mix of vintage hardware and much newer technology. To put it simply, not all available media is either affordable or in good shape but I do have some older recordings (family type stuff) that I cherish and that was recorded on m A77. I also have recording that were made from sources that are no longer available to me in any format.
Do I enjoy any format over another? Simple answer: they are all great given the restrictions or the very character of the playback device. Noise, hiss, pops, etc. are part of the media and enjoying the music simply requires a mental step; what's more important the content or the delivery .... I go fo content always!
Sam |
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I have some 50s pre-recorded RRs that are amazingly good but transferred them to CD via the Alesis Masterlink. I've used the Masterlink extensively. Its OK, but is really an artifact of the early 2000s and not up to snuff with modern digital recording gear, studio grade reel to reels or LP. I've compared it side by side plenty of times. Nice for what it is though. I've got one for sale cheap. |
I honestly believe after cabling, music delivery medium is probably the least important aspect of a solid hi-fi system. If you have a properly performing and well attended to setup, you can get lost in well made mp3 files just as easily as tape. You might not listen as long, but a good deal of pleasure can still be had.
With tape, there is something so unmediated and transparent its hard to explain. As a delivery medium tape will just knock your mouth agape in awe and wonder. |
I HAVE A FEW Reel to Reel prosumer decks, but I would make two points here. #1- I listen with great pleasure to VERY old 78's played on the radio here on WLRN Sunday nights from 8-12MN. The sound quality is terrible but the music is captivating and wonderful if you can get into it. Once upon a time there were ONLY tube radios and they were wonderful. They played everything- comedy, news, big bands, classical,
blues- everything. Or you went out to the cinema or took in a concert.
Clubs played all kinds of live music. The IPOD is not necessarily an improvement, nor is your phone. Which is how most people think they're getting such a great experience. So it's a matter of opinion.
#2- Reel to Reel is not dead if you have a studio-quality machine built to last a very long time. But that also means you have to calibrate it and maintain it properly. A Studer-810 or an Otari MTR series (or better) can handle tapes properly and play them and record them the way it's supposed to be. Then taping will be the least hassle and the most rewarding. Of course the deck will be heavy and take up space. Years ago prosumer machines were easy to fix or replace. But unfortunately
those days have passed us by. And I agree that 15IPS audiophile tapes
are far too expensive. Make your own at 7IPS from someones' vinyl collection. And don't forget to listen to Bessie Smith recordings once in awhile. They're sure to put a smile on your face. |
I had an Akai Reel to Reel deck I bought overseas at a base exchange Rota, Spain in 1981.
It was a fine piece and sounded fantastic. It even had a plastic dust cover that went over the reels.
I sold it around '93/'94 for what amounts to peanuts. This was before the internet.
I wish I still had it only because I could sell it for a lot more now.
I still play my records but that's as far as I will go as far as inconvenience is concerned. Life's getting too short to be constantly fiddling and not listening. |
That was a totally erroneous statement; a reel is much less trouble than a turntable. I bought a reel in order to listen to a number of records without getting up to turn them over, and as a matter of fact my first reel was an Akai.
Face it, you wish you hadn't sold it because you would really like to hear the pristine beauty of that Akai reel again.
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I don't know why radio stations play poor sounding 78s, even acoustically recorded pre-1925. I have 7,000 78s, 100,000+ on CDs and LPs superbly remastered and they sound fine within their sonic limitations.
As to the Masterlink, it is an adequate recording device. I don't use it for live recording. I use it solely for copying and editing recordings to CD format. I prefer DAT recording to RR for ease of use and have great recordings on DAT. |
All I have to say right now is ... Ahhh!
Listening to Closer to Home by Grand Funk on 7.5ips pre recorded tape and it is really well recorded.
If buying pre recorded tapes I tend to only buy 7.5ips ones.
Very nice indeed.
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@uberwaltzSome 3 3/4 will surprise you! I think I said it before, Jethro Tulls Aqualung on 3 3/4 tape is the best way to appreciate that album. |
Brett
You could be right but I cannot afford Aqualung in any reel format!
Lol
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Long Live R2R.
Analog must involve physical wear. We deal with it, happily.
Analog simply gets the overtones right. That's why it is so Involving.
I play Sgt. Pepper's (anything I have in all 3 formats) on CD, then LP, then R2R. EVERYONE prefers LP to CD, and EVERYONE prefers R2R to LP.
Play
In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida, CD, LP, .. now play R2R, you can hear him say "In the Garden of Eden".
Play 1st Moody Blues Album, Go Now, before Justin, when they were a piano based blues band. Hear hard driven piano, muddy/mushy on LP, play R2R, it sounds awesome.
Rare Earth, ... Anything
I play McIntosh 300 wpc transistor, then 30 wpc tube amp, EVERYONE picks the tubes.
Come over here, we will listen, you will leave with tears of joy.
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I’ve ‘had tears’ twice now with reel to reel. One a recording of Nina Simone, the other an Ink Spots recording—a group and recording I had never heard before.
Simply amazing! |
I have some great early stereo 50's R2R that slay the LPs and CDs. George Wrights' Razz Ma Jazz on Audio Fidelity, Red Norvo Quintet Naturally and the Hi-Lo's on a pre-Columbia tape Amazing clarity and dynamics. |
Regarding tape longevity,
I am reducing my collection. I have sold over 150 of my factory recorded tapes from the 50, 60, 70's. on eBay. I offer unconditional returns.
40, 50, 60 years old, they still sound awesome, no one has ever asked for a return.
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@ orpheus10
Don’t really see how a R2R is much less trouble than a turntable. Once the table is setup it’s easy. Unless, you are anal and must make adjustments for every record you play.
Pre recorded reel tapes are expensive.
If you record on a R2R it can be very time consuming not to mention a pain if you want to listen to a particular album on a ten inch reel. I remember having a few 10 inch reels full of recorded music but got sick of fast forwarding or backwards to get to a particular album. Then having to take the tape off and putting another on to get to another album.
My deck also had an auto reverse function if you applied a small length of metallic tape at the end of the recorded tape it would reverse. So you could get essentially 6 hrs(?) of music on one 10 in. reel.
No thanks.
I admit that the sound was fantastic though.
Like I said, I could have sold that rig for a lot more than what I did back in the day. I hope someone is happy with it.
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Reel To Reel holds no appeal to me.
Would I sit and listen to a system playing RTR?
Definitely!
Am I even remotely tempted to integrate RTR in my set up?No.
People may say the move from the ease of digital to getting in to vinyl is cumbersome - gotta find vinyl, physically handle it, put it on the turntable, get up to change sides etc. But for many like me, that’s actually part of the appeal - not the "work" per se, but I find the physical aesthetics of albums and turntables appealing and I enjoy looking at them and interacting with them.
For me RTR holds no such appeal. I don’t care for how the machines look, they are generally quite large and bulky, and having worked in film "forever" I sure as heck don’t care to go back to the hassle of handling/using magnetic tapes and RTR machines. And the tapes themselves...no aesthetic appeal.
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Prof.
While I may agree that the physical beauty of many r2r machines can be lacking and the media is most definitely not sexy.
But there is absolutely something almost hypnotic about watching those reels spin at high speed and seeing one tape spool get smaller while the other grows.
And I do not need any eyes in all honesty, just my ears...... |
Although you have to admit some of the machines are nearly "steampunk" in appearance!
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
Indeed uberwaltz.
I've seen a few fancy RTR that look kind of cool.
But the physical aspects of using RTR tape has always been a turn-off for me.
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I have been using reel to reel since this last december and have only managed to destroy one $8 tape (which I cannot find a duplicate of...ugh). But other than that i prefer it to handling vinyl. Everything seems to affect vinyl playback--everything.
To do it right, you have to manage static, dust, rumble, people walking, keep the needle clean, don't bump anything, be careful how you slide the vinyl in and out of its selves, carefully drop the stylus, properly apply the RIAA curve (via one of a million different ways to do a phono preamp), dampen platter resonance, maintain tracking height, tracking weight, tracking angle, anti-skate, choose what type of stylus you want, how do you know if you have damaged your stylus or if it's gotten old, deep clean your vinyl....
Tape has pretty much none of this. All you've got to do is get it calibrated once a year by a pro (or learn to do it yourself), degauss the metal parts occasionally, clean the tape path with lint free swaps and alcohol, clean the pinch roller with some distilled water every week or so and adjust tape position in or out if you happen upon a warped reel.
Nothing is near invisible with a tape player. Much is near invisible with vinyl.
Plus vinyl has an additional mastering phase and by the time it gets to your turntable it's already like 3 more generations away from the master tape than commercially released tape is.
Tape path to your home:
Master tape>dupe master>tape you listen to at home
Vinyl path to your home:
Master tape>RIAA EQ applied and bass phase aligned and summed to center remix for cutting and then cut lacquer>mother>stamper(s)>record you listen to at home |
Distilled water on the pinch roller without any alcohol? I doubt that would clean any residue off. |
