Can we finally put Reel to Reel out of its misery? Put it to rest people.
The format is dying and too expensive to repair properly. Heads wear out so easy and many out there are all worn. High quality technicians are either retired or long gone. Its such an inconvenient format that can be equalled by nakamichi easily in tape decks. Retire it please put them in museums.
There is one vintage recorder that no body mentioned; it was my favorite, I owned one that was as good if not better than my reel, and it was more convenient. The one I owned was hi-end and I don't even remember the name, but if I took the time to look through some old magazines I might find it.
Aside from professional quality open reel, a Hi-Fi VCR was the best audio recorder around. I still have VCR tapes that I recorded on this machine. It broke and couldn't be repaired, but I bought a Sony that's still working.
By request, if anyone is interested, I could do a review of the Sony, and try to find the brand of the Hi-Fi VCR that was so good.
At some point there was quite a bunch of Hi fi VCRs able to record Audio very well. They were there originally to play Hi Fi stereo pre recorded movies and sure it was a great improvement over ordinary VHS. First tape I tested through my AKG headphones was Silverado that was just released! What an experience! Could hear all the details of a very serious sound production. Don’t remember the make of this VCR. Later I became involved in video editing and used maybe the best S-VHS ever, the Panasonic NV-FS 100S.
I became seriously involved in HI-FI VCR's after purchasing what I considered the best ever, it was head and shoulders above the rest, although I do recall owning a Panasonic; I know they made some good one's.
After this VCR broke and I was unable to get it repaired, I was never satisfied although I purchased several Hi-Fi VCR's after this one;
Unlike most people, I used it exclusively for music, and other VCR's for the purpose they were intended.
I think I'll listen to the Sony playing tapes made with the NEC and get back to you in regard to the quality. Too much trouble to put it in the setup, so I'll use headphones for the evaluation.
I correct myself, VHS-HiFi uses FM encoding. Great in concept except for the challenge of audio being a continuous stream which means head alignment is critical to ensure the playback isn’t hobbled with background buzzing.
I have been using reel to reel since this last december and have only managed to destroy one $8 tape (which I cannot find a duplicate of...ugh). But other than that i prefer it to handling vinyl. Everything seems to affect vinyl playback--everything.
To do it right, you have to manage static, dust, rumble, people walking, keep the needle clean, don’t bump anything, be careful how you slide the vinyl in and out of its selves, carefully drop the stylus, properly apply the RIAA curve (via one of a million different ways to do a phono preamp), dampen platter resonance, maintain tracking height, tracking weight, tracking angle, anti-skate, choose what type of stylus you want, how do you know if you have damaged your stylus or if it’s gotten old, deep clean your vinyl....
Tape has pretty much none of this. All you’ve got to do is get it calibrated once a year by a pro (or learn to do it yourself), degauss the metal parts occasionally, clean the tape path with lint free swaps and alcohol, clean the pinch roller with some distilled water every week or so and adjust tape position in or out if you happen upon a warped reel.
Nothing is near invisible with a tape player. Much is near invisible with vinyl.
Plus vinyl has an additional mastering phase and by the time it gets to your turntable it’s already like 3 more generations away from the master tape than commercially released tape is.
Tape path to your home: Master tape>dupe master>tape you listen to at home
Vinyl path to your home: Master tape>RIAA EQ applied and bass phase aligned and summed to center remix for cutting and then cut lacquer>mother>stamper(s)>record you listen to at home
One problem: You can’t buy a good music on reel to reel tapes that you can always buy on original vintage vinyl today in one click on discogs. So the choise of music on reel to reel tapes is extremely limited, if you’re not listening to some pop or some other well known garbage you will never find anything on reel to reel tapes (with very few exceptions). This is the reason why vinyl is still in demand. It will be simply impossible to find even 1% of my record collection on reel to reel tapes.
I hooked up the Sony Video Cassette SLV 770 HF, and it sounded clean, loud and clear; no distortion. Beyond that I'm not going to compare it to any "high end" source, although the NEC I had was comparable to high end sources.
Chakster, get some "rubber cleaner" for your pinch roller, over a period of time you'll ruin it with water.
Now that I've down-loaded my records to digital I no longer use the record player. The expensive NOS Telefunken tubes in the phono pre went belly up, and I'm not going to replace them soon. I replaced them with some run of the mill tubes, but you know how that is; you can go up the ladder, but not back down, I'll have to live without the TT until I replace those tubes with the NOS Telefunkens.
I divide my time between computer playback and reel; although the reel is better, the play list is more convenient; plus the records were down-loaded when the NOS Telefunken tubes were functional.
Some years back, there was intense discussion on this forum in regard to upgrading digital playback until it was as good as analog. I took it all in and made the necessary changes including different cards in the computer, and the best equipment for down-loading records, as well as DAC for playback; my digital is very close to analog.
Those who haven't caught up can complain how inferior digital is to analog until the cows come home, but in the meantime I'm enjoying the quality and convenience of upgraded digital. Actually, since it's vinyl that was recorded digitally and played back through a Digital to Analog Converter, it's just half digital.
Last week end I offered a DAC to my Technics RS 1500 US R2R, and recorded on a brand new lpr35 some WAV and AAC out of my SSD laptop Hard drive. What an improvement! The playback is fantastic, even at 7.5. Tapes or LPs, I really enjoy listening to the music while watching these 10 inches reels or the vinyl spinning.
you really need to check out Ebay for reel-to-reel tapes there’s more than you think out there @uberwalts you really need to check out Ebay for reel-to-reel tapes there’s more than you think out there
There are no reel to reel tapes with music i can buy on vintage vinyl, but i am not listening to the mainstream, any reel to reel tape with rare stuff will cost more than my turntable. With all my respect to reel-to-reel format this is a problematic to find music i’m after.
@orpheus10
Now that I’ve down-loaded my records to digital I no longer use the record player. The expensive NOS Telefunken tubes in the phono pre went belly up, and I’m not going to replace them soon. I replaced them with some run of the mill tubes, but you know how that is; you can go up the ladder, but not back down, I’ll have to live without the TT until I replace those tubes with the NOS Telefunkens.
This is definitely not my scenario, i love to play records and i don’t like digital. But i have working telefunken tubes, probably the rarest of them (a quad of E84L and pair of ecc801s, both military versions from the 60s...). Honestly i prefer my solid state and no longer use tube amps or anything with tubes since i discovered First Watt, Pass Labs (by Nenson Pass). I am far more impressed by the sound of his gear than by those rare and overpriced telefunken in my ex triode push-pull arm after direct comparison in my system.
Some of the best tapes come from the 1950s and 60s. Classical, Jazz, Motown, R&B, Big Band, Vocal, there is so much selection available... The cherry on top is all the Pop and Rock from the late 60s and the 1970s!
Plus a well cared for tape from the 1950s (or any decade) will totally outplay the same title on a well cared for piece of vinyl. No ‘surface noise’, clicks, pops, static, or need for deep cleaning. No more of the resigned sentiment “I like the clicks and the pops, it’s part of the experience”.
With tape you just get the incredible illusion of real music being played for you.
I have a very nice copy of closer to home by Grand Funk on vinyl and same on r2r at 7.5ips.
My tt playback is no slouch but even on pioneer rt701 the reel is more satisfying in terms of depth and spatial imaging. It just sounds more "real" Gor want of any better description.
Just depends how deep your wallet is on buying pre recorded reels. A lot out there but some crazy prices for real popular stuff like Zep or Floyd.
Chakster, I'm totally convinced that whether or not you choose SS over tubes depends on your choice of music, and the aspects of that music which appeal to you most; in other words, I doubt if the two camps like the same music; however, if I auditioned those two amps that you mentioned, I might come to the same conclusion.
@vinny55 Like with all things, I try to keep to a lower budget. I have a TEAC 2300s. It’s seems like a solid player. I had it setup and calibrated by a pro here in the Greater Los Angeles area. It handles 7 inch stereo 4-track reels at 3 3/4 and 7 1/2 inches per second (ips).
When it comes to what sounds best, generally stay away from late 1970s and early 80s, everything else has sounded pretty good!
The Pioneer rt701/707 were very well built units. 40lb well built! Much more compact and less agricultural looking than some other units. They could only handle 7 inch reels but playing at 7.5ips they are more than capable of delivering a stellar performance.
Best of all as they were plentiful when new, still lots of great examples around and prices are fair for a good working serviced unit, ($500 to $700). Parts still readily available for most normal wear items.
orpheus If a good CD is recorded to reel, the playback is pure "analog". What you have, is a noise free LP.
>>>>>Unfortunately for that theory the noise and distortion occurs as soon as the laser reads the CD. And the missing information and noise cannot be corrected by any means. The best laid plans of mice and men oft go awry.
Some people take that word "opinion" off into the wild blue yonder; however, since most of us agree that R2R is the ultimate reference in regard to recorded music, we can proceed from that point.
Digital or analog is not an audible difference or qualification, since all music is analog, which is why digital must be converted into analog in order to be music, otherwise it would be pure noise.
It's the quality of the components in this conversion that determine the quality of the music. While the audible difference between SS and Tubes has some merits; lately, that "digital", "analog" has gotten very foggy. An example is recording a CD to reel; that playback is 100% analog, that's not opinion, but scientific fact, and the proof lies in the manner in which that process is carried out to it's conclusion.
Although I rest my case on science, the bottom line audio speaks for it self, in which case all one needs is a good pair of discerning ears.
SS versus tubes; here is a case of some like vanilla while others like strawberry. While I can accept a tube pre, and a SS amp; I wont go beyond that; never a SS pre-amp. Many times companies will manufacture a SS amp, but with a tube pre.
In the case of tube phonos, it is the tube itself that determines the end result, as much as the quality of the unit; which is why "Uncle Kevin" is always promoting tubes.
These tubes will make a big difference in a tube phono, and that's not my opinion but an auditory fact; as a matter of fact, I will live without my TT until these are back in the phono.
All is not opinion, there are some clear audible facts.
Chakster you probably can’t find your rap on R2R, but sound quality was never a requirement for rap anyhow.
Oh, it’s you again with your favorite topic.
Sound Quality is a requirement for any genre of music even for a "grandpa country records" you may listening to.
The worst ever "music" often comes from people with the best systems, especially from digital officionados (imo). When i watch those reports from Audio Shows (USA or EU) on youtube i’m getting sick of the selection of music, it’s awful and they have no taste at all (as much as their designers who’s working on all those ugly looking modern "high-end" equipment).
90% of my record collection is properly recorded original pressings of rare 70’s Jazz-Funk, Soul, Soundtracks, Latin Jazz ...some of those obscure old records cost more than your audio components. And none of them available on Reel2Reel tapes, except for the impossible to find studio mastertapes.
The choice of music or R2R tapes is very limited, let’s face it. The choice of music on vintage vinyl is much wider, fact.
If i could buy what i like on R2R tapes for the price of original vinyl i would love to use tapes, but i think with so small choice of music it’s pointless. I don’t listen to everything just for the sake of quality and my heart belongs to the music from the 70’s (mainly played by black musicians).
P.S. You’d better discuss rap and hip-hop with your kids, each generation has their own music, when older generation blame new generation’s music it sounds like blabling of old f**ts and this is what you’re doing.
Uberwaltz, from a technical point of view, early CD's were not as good as today's CD's. But just as the case of a technically inferior record, you would wind up with the same result; this usually consists of the whole batch, not just one record.
If it sounds bad it's bad, if it sounds good, it's good; whatever your determination in regard to this fact is good enough for me.
Here is a CD I have determined is good from a musical point of view (which is arbitrary) but I also stand behind this CD as very good from a technical point of view; Pat Metheney & Anna Maria Jopek "Upojenie";
Here is a link to some tape deck photos taken by Todd Kreiger over at Audio Asylum at the 2019 THE S.H.O.W. recently in CA. (click each to supersize) https://photos.app.goo.gl/xXt5fRXqaD8CbfZx7
@sleepwalker65 my 3 kids, ages 18, 20 and 23 despise rap as much as I do. They like many formats, but genuinely love Rock.
I would rather listen to good music on crappy system than some crap on high-end system. I don’t care about Rock. This is not my cup of tea.
@brettmcee And only old square white people call it ‘rap.’
haha, exactly We call it hip hop
The genre was born because they start playing breaks from an old jazz-funk records and rhyming over it in the late 70’s and it was oldschool, then they start sampling an old records to make their own beats (included a rock records too).
There are some nice instrumental hip hop and many top jazz musicians performed and recorded with hip hop artists in the 90’s when the scene was completely different compared to modern hip hop. This is Donald Byrd (from Blue Note) on trumpet with Guru on Jazzmatazz LP and i still like this stuff.
I wasn’t into Rap or Rhyme too much, but i like the original jazz-funk records that early hip hop producers used to make their beats. Those original 70’s LPs are perfectly recorded and sounds amazing on High-End system. Here is the most famous example: Bob James "Nautilus" (on CTI Records).
But i think our sleepwalker65 is not into jazz, it’s s typical rocker’s attitude, no wonder. So keep on playin’ your country stuff, lol. Just don't tell us what is crap or not when it comes to music.
Like so many here I completely disagree. My Pioneer RT-1050 running in half track and 15ips absolutely kills my Nakamichi deck. My B-77 also half track does likewise.
I had the foresight to purchase spare head stacks for the Pioneer. I have two new head stacks for half and quarter track and after over forty years of use I’m still on the original stack. Yes, it they still meet spec.
There are several companies that can re-lap your worn tape heads for many more years of service. ReVox heads are especially well suited to re-lapping as there is so much material to work with.
I have also been enjoying second generation masters from Horch-House and the Tape Project, not to mention all of the standard quarter track 7.5 ips production tapes that are available on the used market.
Judging from the Munich 2019, reel to reel is doing just fine.
Chalker, the things you won’t understand about music could fill the whole universe.
1: rappers that sample recordings that are the artistic property of others are not manufacturing anything that they can legally call their own artistic property.
2: Rock and Roll is not the same thing as country or folk music. Your suggestion that it is, is as absurd as saying that rap/hiphop is the same thing as disco.
3: Jazz artists that involve themselves with rappers are only reducing themselves to the same level as rappers. They are no more artists than the rest of the filthy degenerates that produce rap/hiphop.
4: rap/hiphop doesn’t require sound quality. It is a colossal waste of hundreds of thousands of SL-1200mk2 turntables every year, and doesn’t even remotely require the capability of a child’s toy record player let alone a reel to reel tape deck.
Your assertions are unfair and inaccurate. I am a rather waspy (without the p) late 50’s music and audio lover. Hip hop is every bit as relevant to those who enjoy the genre as anything you like. For you to take a swipe at the artists in your point three above is simply ill informed at best and pitiful at worst. There are so many young people discovering great music as they go on a search for the original sample. You sound like an older than average, inflexible elitist.
Keep in mind, Bob Dylan was a protest music artist until he went mainstream and plugged in. You were probably there booing. Hip-hop happened and evolved into what it is today, and it is intensely profitable for the music business and the artists. Are you of the camp that believes an artist must starve and only conform to what you think is right and honorable.
Alot of exceptional artists straddle the lines like Robert Glasper. You should apologize for your little tantrum because its guys like you who wonder why young people aren’t audiophiles. Your post above is exhibit A.
Ghasley you really should keep to yourself your opinions about who I am and what kind of values I hold. Your perspective is your own, and utterly and completely worthless and laughable in my eyes.
Just because rap/hiphop is popular doesn’t mean it’s good, but you are insisting that it be respected, which I find hilarious.
Remember, rappers are heavily involved in promoting and participating in hatred and intolerance. rappers are egotistical narcissists that brainwash kids into thinking they have to posture and prove they are tougher than the rest of their crowd. rappers are also well known for promoting an atmosphere of violence that results in scores of shootings at night clubs that play rap/hiphop.
Finally, you should apologize for your outlandish and arrogant proclamations. They paint a picture of cognitive deficiencies, ignorance or both.
Moonwalker99, keep listening your rock and roll, i want to repeat that i am not a hip hop or rap aficianado, but let’s make it clear - i don’t like rock and roll (most of it), country and stuff like that, but you like it and always talk sh*t about music you don’t understand (you don’t even know a history of this music).
1: rappers that sample recordings that are the artistic property of others are not manufacturing anything that they can legally call their own artistic property.
In the beginning (late 70s) they used to sample beats (before a sample was even invented) using two copies of the same records and a mixer in real time on two turntables, in the 70’s it was DISCO records or JAZZ-FUNK record or even ROCK RECORDS if there was a drum break in the song. An MC was on the MIC at the discoteque and it was pretty much like Soul Train. That was the beggining of a new culture for youth people as the opposite to the rock and rock or anything else considered their parents music. Young folks created something new for themselfs to have fun, they don’t care about copyrights (it is true), it was in the black ghetto and they were poor. Graffiti appeared at the same time, break dance appeared at the same time. This is hip hop at it was born pretty much parallel to the disco music.
This music changed a lot in time and you probably referring to Gangsta Rap and other aggressive form of this culture, i am refering to the positive side of this culture only, stuff like this.
Today all samples cleared for superstars, but people are still sampling unknown records, rare records. Sampling records is a part of hip hop culture, crate digging etc.
2: Rock and Roll is not the same thing as country or folk music. Your suggestion that it is, is as absurd as saying that rap/hiphop is the same thing as disco.
Oh, thank for letting me know. Rock and Roll or Country is something i will never even listen to. Rap is not Disco, but seems like you have no idea what is a Disco Rap ? I’m sure you know this.
3: Jazz artists that involve themselves with rappers are only reducing themselves to the same level as rappers. They are no more artists than the rest of the filthy degenerates that produce rap/hiphop.
Thanks, this is all we need to know about you and your personality. Remember It was you who bring the Rap to this forum, not me.
As i told you many times i’m into 70’s jazz, funk, soul ... music.
4: rap/hiphop doesn’t require sound quality. It is a colossal waste of hundreds of thousands of SL-1200mk2 turntables every year, and doesn’t even remotely require the capability of a child’s toy record player let alone a reel to reel tape deck.
If you don’t know yet the rappers also performing live and recording in the best studios with full live bands. There are many different forms of hip hop music including intelligent forms or it, not just commercial rubbish. In many cases this is a new form of Jazz and Funk with syncopated rhythms and rhyme. Again it is all depends on the artist and his/her musical background. In general mainstream music degrade so fast, this is one of the reason i prefer an old records from the 70’s (that was the best time for music).
Why the insults @sleepwalker65? Have you listened to Robert Glasper? He is an amazing talent, deeply respected in both jazz and hip-hop circles.
Your assertions about all rappers/hip-hop artists being thugs/criminals/shooters is absurd. Check out Chance the Rapper or Sir the Baptist. No one is getting brainwashed either. Believe it or not, people can and often do think for themselves. I would rather witness people grooving together to any kind of music than the alternative.
I apologize if I somehow offended you, although, you really should finish cutting my lawn before it gets dark. Lighten up a little Frances....
Im with everyone else who considers hip hop rap reggaeton and protest songs dylan included a waste of recording space or listening time. No need for high quality equipment if that is what you like. You can say what you like its reality. the stuff is butt awful on any system. Why would anyone like to hear some terrible background music and a foul mouthed idiot complaining and cursing in high fidelity on a 5k 10k 15k 20k. Its trash talk basically
I made an account on here just so I could reply to this.
In 2014 I decided to buy my first reel to reel deck for the home. I went through Akai, two Panasonics, and finally landed on Teac 7030GSL to my liking. In 2017 I bought an MCI JH110 I use for 10.5" reels.
First I would just like to say this. The magic of reel to reel as a legitimate format that outpaces the CD is not really for playback but for making recordings. Obviously reel to reel is not a dead format as there are studios that still use tape to this day. I’m talking 2" multi-track master tape. Think Otari, MCI, Studer, Tascam, Ampex. Those are in a different league but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here. The wider tracks on large tape have way more room to saturate than cassette. The workflow of reel to reel for me is still my preference.
As far as the second category of reel to reel format, is the consumer decks that were sold for playing back prerecorded reel. Made by Japanese companies such as Sony, Akai, Teac, Panasonic. They usually are limited to 3 3/4 and 7 1/2 playback. These are inferior to CD’s. The prerecorded tapes they sold on the market are many generations separated from the source and probably played many times and worn. Unless you’re seeking out 15 IPS audiophile music releases that are brand new then in that case it’s probably going to sound incredible to your ears. However 7 1/2 can still sound very good and some decks have a frequency response that outpaces CD’s.
We should also note that is a myth that reel to reel heads wear. Yes the metal heads used on professional decks wear but then they are still manufacturing new heads for pro decks. The heads used in consumer decks are the same heads used in cassette decks like Nak. Ferrite heads last forever and don’t need to be relapped, but they crumble or crack if abused which is actually a little more common than people realize. I brought my Teac heads to John @ JRF Magnetics and he found they were cracked when he observed them. What does wear are the tapes themselves every time you play them, so more times than not any used tape you buy on the market has lost it’s higher frequencies and doesn’t sound too good. This is because as a tape sheds overtime it changes the azimuth. Cassettes last much longer since they are running at slower speeds. Funny enough one of the advantages of VHS tape for example is that it does not come in direct contact with the heads, so VHS heads and VHS tape does not wear and could have been an incredible music format if it was realized.
RTR as a format is not going anywhere, but it depends on the circumstance and it depends on what you are using it for. There are perceived qualities of analog that can’t be replicated with plugins. Analog tape including cassettes are actually the only format and I exclude vinyl that is capable of reproducing the full waveform of the higher frequencies. Something that 44.1 CD’s are incapable of doing. This is the whole reason why SACD’s were introduced. I would not recommend investing in a setup today for musical enjoyment. Do it as a serious hobby because the parts and support are non existent. For analog musical enjoyment investing in an audiophile cassette deck will get you superior results. Only reason I have them and restore them is I run an archival business for unreleased tape, as well as use them in the studio to make recordings.
... We should also note that is a myth that reel to reel heads wear. Yes the
metal heads used on professional decks wear but then they are still
manufacturing new heads for pro decks.
What's your point? First you say one thing, then another. Either way, there's no question that tape heads are subject to wear. It's not a "myth."
What does wear are the tapes themselves every time you play them, so
more times than not any used tape you buy on the market has lost it’s
higher frequencies and doesn’t sound too good. This is because as a tape
sheds overtime it changes the azimuth.
There are several ways tape can lose HF and wear is only one of them. Exposure to a magnetized tape path is another - that's the function of a demagnetizer. But I'd sure like to know why you think tape wear changes azimuth.
The heads used in consumer decks are the same heads used in cassette decks like Nak.
That's actually impossible. Cassette and reel are two different formats, two different tape widths.
Funny enough one of the advantages
of VHS tape for example is that it does not come in direct contact with
the heads, so VHS heads and VHS tape does not wear ...
A VHS tape deck wraps the tape around a rotary spinning tape head, which gives it a high "write speed" relative to the speed of tape travel. There is definitely contact between tape and head and wear is the result.
We should also note that is a myth that reel to reel heads wear.
While I agree with a lot of what you posted, its a simple fact that heads wear- I've replaced many of them in my time, on cassette, consumer RTR and pro machines as well.
My first and only deck was a Pioneer RT-1011L, which I would probably still have except for one thing: head wear. The heads had obvious visible wear at a time when I was too broke to replace them. So I wound up practically giving it away. One of the dumbest and most regrettable moves of my entire audio career. So yes indeed tape heads do not defy the laws of physics. Reel to reel tape heads definitely do wear.
What’s your point? First you say one thing, then another. Either way, there’s no question that tape heads are subject to wear. It’s not a "myth."
That’s actually impossible. Cassette and reel are two different formats, two different tape widths.
So, many of the consumer reel to reel decks sold on the market like cassette decks were manufactured with heads that never wear down. For that reason ferrite heads for example cannot be relapped. They never develop a flat spot. Since the ferrite is encased in glass unlike metal heads, they can be polished but not reshaped. Also to clarify, head wear and head failure are not the same. Ferrite can go bad.
There are several ways tape can lose HF and wear is only one of them. Exposure to a magnetized tape path is another - that’s the function of a demagnetizer. But I’d sure like to know why you think tape wear changes azimuth.
Mostly from wear on the spools. Tape played the first time will not have the same azimuth as the tape played the 200th time.
A VHS tape deck wraps the tape around a rotary spinning tape head, which gives it a high "write speed" relative to the speed of tape travel. There is definitely contact between tape and head and wear is the result.
VHS rewinders solved a problem that did not exist. Because of the nature of moving heads, VHS tape floats close to the heads but do not need to make direct contact unlike linear tracks. Early VCRs would load and wrap the videotape virtually completely around the video head (leftover technology from the U-MATIC format) leading to premature wear. Under normal circumstances VHS tape will never "wear out" or "fade". That is a common myth spread around from the ads to "save your tapes".
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