What is it that love about this type of speaker? Why would you recommend them? What do you like the most and the least about your horns? Thanks in advance for any and all responses.
Mr. Decibel, after they listen from 12 feet away from my horns I have visitors listen from 4 feet away. They marvel at the pinpoint imaging at 4 feet, the immediacy of the sound, the coherence, and the lack of harshness, brightness, or any of the things most folks would expect to hear.
I know studio guys who have done this with Tannoys for years.
So, for really well done horns, I disagree with your statement. Some of my horn speakers are better at listening position flexibility, especially going very close (ridiculously close relative to the size of the speakers) than any of my dynamic (cone) speakers.
I am wondering. How many of you can make a claim that the "system" sounds as good from 12 feet away as it does 4 feet away ? Kiddman does. I envy his system, and, his room. Maybe, even his ears. Disagreeing is sure fun. MrD
I have a pair of the JBL 4676a theatre speaker system rated @ 106 db, in storage. (I am temporarily in a small apartment) They are two-way based and on the JBL bottom 4550 cabinet and have an attached external metal boxed crossover that is 6 or 7 way adjustable with metal bars for the cut-off between hi and low. I did use them with a 40 watt SS B&O 5000 system (of all things) years ago for a few months, which is what I had at that time. These were purchased to eventually build my dream system around, however that is to be done. I currently choose between Wavelength 300B & 45 amplifiers of which I am VERY happy with. Given a needed larger room, I am contemplating bi-amping with an active crossover like Marchand, Heathkit XO-1 (?) etc. Any thoughts are welcome, constructive, humorous, the whole gamut.
Close listening requires really coherent speakers. The greater distances are forgiving of not so well matched drivers, for obvious geometrical reasons. I remember hearing VMPS, a giant box of differing drivers, sound pretty coherent from over 50 feet. 12 feet? Forget it.
Very close listening requires me to change toe in a bit, that's all. It's not just my ears, most listeners in my room are forced to go way up close, and all are equally surprised how great it works. It's like being in front of the stage, the singer 4 feet away, and very, very immediate, yet natural sound.
A low distortion set of components and very coherent speakers are the only requisites. I've done it equally well in small rooms, in some ways it is easier to get good sound in small rooms, the room reflections enter the picture less.
Many studio monitors are capable of this, even tough audiophiles often look down at the monitors, falsely thinking these guys don't know good sound because they don't see the big audiophile names, and assuming that the audiophile brands are the best speakers in the world. In reality, many studio guys laugh at audiophile equipment. The good studio guys hear much more live music than the vast majority of audiophiles, they tend to be very confident in their monitor choices, and very often for good reason.
Larryi, just a FWIW, Classic Audio found that there was an error in the throat design of the TAD horn, which is why the TAD horns tend to sound a little edgier and why the Classic Audio horn, which looks nearly identical, is nice and smooth.
Near field listening eliminates the reflections often associated by room interaction. It is the ideal way to listen, but most of us live in a "living" environment, and might not be practical. Yes, the speaker plays a large part as well, as some do better than others. The best recording studios I have experience with are quite "dead" in the reflective category, and when you are making the recording, this is ideal. However, some of the best rooms I have designed have a balance between direct and reflective sound (Bose 901s,lol). It is all about achieving, as much as possible, the "live" recreation of the recordings, in our rooms. Again, to my ears, "good" horns do it best. Kiddman, I think we can both agree on this. Yippie ! MrD
I have at least one customer who set up his hybrid horn speakers (waveguide-type horn on top, direct radiator woofer on bottom) in a nearfield setup so close that he could lean forward in his chair and touch them. I was skeptical, but heard it myself and yup it worked fine!
Further experimenting when I got back home indicated that, with my speakers at least, if you listen from very close (like arm's length), the height of your ears relative to the drivers became critical. With ears at the height of the center of the waveguide, the waveguide was the apparent sound source. With ears lower, at the midline between top of woofer and bottom of waveguide, the vertical discrepancy was audible and distracting.
So I don't know that this observation necessarily translates to other horn speakers, but it is possible that ear height is a factor in whether or nor the speaker sounds coherent at close range.
Atma-Sphere mentioned Classic Audio Reproductions... utterly magnificent speakers. Not cheap, but extremely refined and natural sounding, with stunning dynamics and impact, and no distracting little colorations. The current versions are among the finest speakers anywhere, and if their equals exist, I have yet to hear them.
I heard some of the bigger better CAR speakers at CAF 2012, with the field coil drivers as well, I think. Very nice, though the room was way too small to do full justice I am sure.
Your AK speakers are high on my want to hear list, but has not happened yet.
I'd be curious to know your opinion of how close your designs come? Would one one need to have a particularly large high quality listening space for the differences to be apparent? How about in smaller more common listening spaces like those most people have? You seem to place more of a focus on value and optimizing designs for certain more common listening scenarios that most are more likely to find themselves in, so in those cases, I'm thinking the "gap" could be pretty minor?
A lot of great observations and comments in this thread. I know it might seem that there are some fundamental differences in opinions expressed, but, I pretty much agree with everything said--differences being probably more a matter of degree or how one expresses what is observed, and matters of taste.
Charles1dad and Audiokinesis and others have mentioned the importance of good crossover design in both horn and direct radiator systems. I agree that this is a big issue. I think that is one of the strengths of horn-based systems when done right. Horn midrange drivers can cover a fairly wide band of frequencies so that the crossover points can be away from the 1,000 to 3,000 hz range where the ear is particularly sensitive to problems of speaker integration.
Isochronism, you asked about active crossovers. I have heard various horn and non-horn systems with active crossovers. I generally like active crossovers when properly implemented--the music sounds very clear, clean and more dynamic, even when high volume and additional power is NOT an issue. The "problem" is that those who have undertaken this approach have told me about how hard it actually is to get things right and the added complexity creates a lot of headaches (particularly when tube-based crossovers and amps are involved). The most impressive example of the difference between active and passive crossover that I heard involved the Active Advent speaker that the company put out; it was supposedly the same speaker as the conventional Large Advent, but with an active crossover and built in amplification. It in no respects sounded like an Advent to me--this thing had LIFE.
Audiokinesis, you mention "waveguide" horns. Do you mean systems where the horn is primarily acting as a means to control dispersion and where "loading" of the diaphragm with a column of air is not a primary part of the design? Also, the Classic Audio Reproduction speakers that you liked, were they the reproductions, like the Hartsfield, or the contemporary design like the T-3? I personally like both lines, perhaps more so the contemporary line.
Wharf, I have no idea if the Avantgarde Duo represents a "flawed" horn design with a lot of bandaids or if it is a correctly engineered horn design by whatever standards one could apply to make such a judgment. I do know that it is a hard system to setup (getting bass to balance correctly is extremely difficult). I also heard a certain "one note" quality to the bass even when it was properly set up. But, all those issues aside, that system can really deliver musical enjoyment. I also noticed that the Duo is quite amplifier friendly and sounded great with a fairly wide range of amplifiers I heard it with. You should, if you get the chance, hear it with an OTL amp--that is a lot of fun.
Mapman, I've heard Duke's speakers in some pretty small rooms and they have worked great! I've also heard them in some larger rooms with excellent results.
The Audiokinesis Jazz Module based on it's description, size and price would seem worthy of much consideration. I get the feeling that it would outperform many speakers that cost more. An added bonus it's very friendly to lower power amplifiers. Charles,
Latest AK speakers seemed to get very good buzz as I read it at recent RMAF, including at least one or two mentions I read as among the best in show. Didn't surprise me at all.
I have owned Audiokinesis Jazz Modules for about 5 years now. In fact I am the person Duke mentioned that could reach out and touch the speakers in my setup. At that time I had a very small listening space and at one point I just decided to plop down the speakers in front of my chair and listen to the results. I was pretty surprised at how well it worked and so was Duke. Subsequently I moved the speakers around and never had an issue tuning them to the various room boundaries. Duke's designs are quite flexible as to room size and placement.
I have also spent a fair amount of time listening to the Classic Audio speakers and have always been impressed. Given the prices I doubt I will have a pair in my system anytime soon, as is the case with my favorite Soundlab and Apogee (fully restored) models. I will say though that the Audiokinesis speakers are right up there for a fraction of the price. Duke's design principals are solid and in my opinion he is the King of crossover design.
I've owned audiokinesis prizmas for 2 years. They have a built in toe-in with the drivers being mounted on a 45 degree angle in the cabinet. this arrangement makes a very wide sweet spot, perfect for off-center listening and makes for ideal nearfield listening with the included various length port tubes, you can really dial in the bass.
Thank you for the kind words, Mapman and Larryi and Atmasphere and Charles1dad and Clio09 and W3ux. I'll try to answer some of the questions that came up.
Mapman wrote: "I'd be curious to know your opinion of how close your designs come [to the Classic Audio Reproductions designs]?"
I aspire to build poor man's alternatives to the Classic Audio Reproductions speakers. My designs do not have the combination of power and finesse of those magnificent field-coil drivers and their Beryllium diaphragms, paired with amazing high-efficiency woofers of unknown origin that can actually keep up. In years past I've sometimes thought that maybe my crossover design had a slight edge here or there, but after hearing CAR speakers at RMAF 2013 I'm under no such illusions. My think my designs are contenders in their weight class, but they wouldn't last long in the ring with John Wolff's speakers.
Mapman again: "Would one one need to have a particularly large high quality listening space for the differences to be apparent? How about in smaller more common listening spaces like those most people have? You seem to place more of a focus on value and optimizing designs for certain more common listening scenarios that most are more likely to find themselves in, so in those cases, I'm thinking the "gap" could be pretty minor?
Well I do design for smaller spaces and try to build in a fair amount of adjustability (user-adjustable bass tuning and top-end "tilt"), so once we start looking at smaller listening spaces the gap between my speakers and Classic Audio Reproductions might shrink a bit in some areas... but not in others. And in all fairness, the CAR speakers use the world's best custom L-pads (which cost more than most woofers) on both midrange and tweeter, so they are quite adjustable as well.
Larryi wrote: "Audiokinesis, you mention "waveguide" horns. Do you mean systems where the horn is primarily acting as a means to control dispersion and where "loading" of the diaphragm with a column of air is not a primary part of the design?"
Yes, exactly! My target is constant directivity with minimal coloration. At RMAF 2013 a couple of weeks ago, I was showing speakers that use the SEOS 12 waveguide-style horn developed and produced by DIY Design Group. I have other models that use the Pyle PH612, and in the past I used the DDS ENG 1-90. I also often use a reduced-level rear-firing tweeter to fill in otherwise-missing reverberant field energy when I use a rectangular or elliptical waveguide-style horn, to compensate for the narrowed vertical dispersion relative to the woofer in the crossover region.
Larryi again: "Also, the Classic Audio Reproduction speakers that you liked, were they the reproductions, like the Hartsfield, or the contemporary design like the T-3? I personally like both lines, perhaps more so the contemporary line."
I love both lines! My favorite is whichever happens to be playing when I walk into the Classic Audio Reproductions room. My Jazz Modules (now the Jazz Module 2.0) are arguably sort of like the T1/T3/T5 line, while a new speaker I showed at RMAF 2013, the Event Horizon 210, would be my counterpart to the magnificent Hartsfields. The EV 210 is really only a horn speaker from 8 kHz on up, so I'm not sure it belongs in this thread.
Charles1dad, the Jazz Module 2.0 is a bit more expensive than the original but perhaps not terribly so, considering the time lapsed and improvements. Shoot me an e-mail for info on version 2.0 if you're interested; I haven't gotten it up on my website yet.
Clio09 and W3ux, very glad to hear the speakers I made for you are doing their thing and adaptable as needed. Thanks for posting.
And thank you too, Atmasphere. In case anyone doesn't know, I design my speakers to be compatible with his amps, including the little S-30, which we used at RMAF a couple of weeks ago (and which could make the room shudder on a pipe organ recording). My speakers will work with most other amps including solid state, but there's a free lunch to be had with a low damping factor tube amp.
Just so ya'll know, I am now selling my most refined models (the Jazz Module 2.0 and the Dream Maker LCS - the latter being the Jazz + a pair of effects speakers) through a small dealer network. Clio09 (of Electra-Fidelity) is one of my first dealers, along with Aaron Goecke of American Audio Design.
Jwm, I appreciate the suggestion. I'm actually not looking to expand my dealer network at this time, that may happen at some point, and I have requests from several dealers already if/when the time comes.
Ralph, wow, I didn't realize John Wolff was actually manufacturing his own field-coil woofers. But that does explain how he came up with woofers that can keep up with those incredible compression drivers. I've never been a fan of combining an ubertweeter with a woofer that is clearly outclassed, because it's consantly reminding you of the mismatch. Better imo to have a well-matched system that may not be the last word in top end resolution but is easier to forget about and just get lost in the music.
Horns are THE speakers if you want to party or dance. Recommended -- of course. Music isn't musical without dynamics. Big reason why Strads are popular.
Horns are THE speakers if you want to party or dance. Recommended -- of course. Music isn't musical without dynamics. Big reason why Strads are popular.
Johnk, You fully understand good things in life. Big speakers and big dogs, and have a very impressive stereo pair, and right now I'm not referring to your speakers!! :)
Horns are THE speakers if you want to party or dance
Well yes, but my take on this is different.
Horns are really the best speakers to listen to music at a low volume, they are the only speakers that can bring out all the music, in full detail playing at low volumes, and that of course can swing it when big dyanmics come to play. Once you get your mind settled on the volume, then it will just bloom out of the horns and you wont miss detail or jump factor.
The only time I like monkey coffin speakers is when they are blasting! And then, they miss on dynamics....
Sad- I think we come out the same way, I would just express it differently. I find that there is a 'natural' loudness level for each recording (at least recordings that aren't overly compressed throughout), where, because of the recording, the system and room, everything just 'gels.' At that point, the system can still handle dynamic swings effortlessly, and as you said, you don't need to crank up the system to get full measure of what is on the recording. The other benefit is that I can get that 'open' quality of electostats that I grew to love over the decades, but can achieve something approximating a full-bandwidth system without having a GIANT speaker, like the big Soundlab. And since the horns are tres efficient, I can get away with a very musical SET amp to power the mids and tweets. So, on balance, I'm far less focused on 'audiophile' attributes, like soundstage and image, because the horn based system has an immediacy that goes beyond creating a 'faux' image; it sounds very 'vivid' and 'in the room' (which may turn into 'forward' and harsh, unless addressed by the associated equipment). Perhaps this is a band-aid to an inherent flaw in mine, but after many, many years of 'audiophilia,' I am listening to the music, not the system. (Not suggesting that the illusion will 'fool' you all the time, but on great recordings it is spectacular, and even on less well recorded material, I can enjoy what's there to hear). I do find that the horns are more ruthless in exposing the gimmicks of the recording- something that might be spectacular sounding on my old system because of detail, imagery, or the like, is revealed for what it is. When I compare different pressings/masterings of the same recording, the differences are not subtle.
Whart, Whart, I love what you wrote. It is even handed and honest. Your point, as I read it, is that horns are by no means perfect, but with their flaws, they still present a dynamically credible illusion of music. I particularly liked your point about the immediacy and vividness of their presentation, and the sound at low listening levels. (which is important to me) I agree that they don't always do the vast soundscape thing the way small monitors do, but for me, the other factors you mentioned are more musically important. As always, liking or disliking horns, or any type of speaker will depend on your sonic preferences.
Might I add that volume also depends on the size of the room. We have a similar system in two rooms, a big one and a smaller one. No matter how much I raise the volume on the smaller room it will never sound as big and loud as the big room.
The Volti Vittoras have been well received at audio shows and there is also a rave review by Art Dudley. What do the knowledgeable horn people here think of them?
I've heard the Volti Vittoras at 4 shows---2011 Capital Audio Fest, 2011 RMAF, and 2012 and 2013 Capital Audio Fest. I like the Vittoras a lot, so much that I seriously considered buying them after my first exposure to them at the 2011 CAF. They combine very impressive dynamics and pretty good detail with an overall coherency that is pretty unusual in a 3-way speaker.
The main thing I did not like so much was the lack of adequate low frequency weight when they were run without a sub. I realize Art Dudley says they sounded just fine without a sub so perhaps a different room might be a better match, but what I heard in the small hotel rooms was not full range until the sub was switched in. Unfortunately, the Vittora was not as coherent when run with the sub. I have had enough experience with subs to know that I would end up playing them without the subs and for my tastes they did not go deep enough. I also noticed a trace of "pro sound" coloration in the Vittoras but I can't say if that may have been due to something else in the system.
For whatever it's worth, I didn't feel the Vittoras sounded quite as good in the other shows as they did in my first exposure to them at the 2011 CAF and RMAF. I believe the designer Greg Roberts said he made a number of changes to the Vittoras during this timespan and he considered them improvements, but I enjoyed the sound in 2011 more than the other occasions.
I also have to say that I haven't warmed up to Greg's other models. The Vittora is the one with the magic.
I don't get around on the Agon site as much as I used to so I am very late to respond but I am an owner of the Edgarhorn Titan system with single bass horn. Yes the bass horn is the size of a refrigerator but I can use it for a casket someday so it came as good value.
I have been a music lover forever and tried very hard over the years to get realistic music performance in the home. After many attempts with many very quality dynamic box speakers with quality drivers, big planar speakers Solid state amps., PP tube amps., I discovered that most hi-efficiency speakers driven by a good SET tube amp. just sounds better to me as mentioned in this thread...right on but to each his own as long as you are enjoying the music.
IMHO if you are missing the dynamics then the rest of the spectrum just falls behind and you never get it right. I confirm this every year at the RMAF.
I first discovered Avantagrde Duos back in 2002 and they gave me the dynamics I was striving for but to me they had coloration in the midrange and I never got the powered bass sub. to have coherency with the rest of the system so I moved on and I tried a lot of loaner gear for experimentation but something always annoyed me.
Then in 2004 I attended CES and discovered Bruce Edgars room with his Titan system and Cyrus Brenneman 845 amps. with silver transformers (drop dead gorgeous) and I knew the speed, low distortion, coherency, imaging and tone was what I was looking for. Hell there was even one couple in the room that became teary eyed after playing their romantic classical piece and these can do it.
After later traveling to California for further evaluation I committed to the 1000 lb. system for my dedicated 15 X 20 room and I have never looked back but beware there has been much experimentation and changes to get it right. As mentioned these things are microscopes so everything has to be right and gear has to be of highest quality with precise gain match.
I won't bore you with the changes I have made or the summation of my system but Horns are not plug and play systems unless you do your homework first and seek out someone who has spent the time to get it right. Once you get it right I am not aware of any system that gets you closer to live music that a dialed in horn system if you can deal with the pain to get there and you will suffer if not correct. All good things in life come with effort so just be aware.
Hi Gwalt, Good to see you postihg again. I suspect that your system sounds truly superb! Have you thought about posting your system on audiogon? I and I'm sure others would love to see it. Regards, Charles,
Yes I had thought about posting my system in the past and just never got there so I will work on it and complete the details of what I have experimented with.
As I mentioned I have made many changes in the horn system and all have been for the better....to the point I have dropped all the audio mags. and just listen to the music and now the search for new music is more my passion.
Hi Gwalt, I did a quick research of you Edgarhorn system and came away very impressed. The end result was well worth your effort, I am sure! I am one of the others that would also love to see a system page, of course, I'm not one to talk as I do not have one up. You can read back my answers to this thread regarding a pair of horns which I hope to implement. Then I plan to put up my system page.
I plan to work on posting of my system and hopefully have completed over the weekend. I certainly want to post all of the modifications I have made along the journey and you will get the idea. I hope I can remember it all.
I love the sound of the EdgarHorn system. The designer managed to minimize the usual horn colorations while preserving most of the immediacy and dynamics of great horn systems. It is unfortunate that there are so few of these systems out there, particularly on the Eastern side of the US, so relatively few people have had the opportunity to hear a really good, modern, horn design.
The Edgarhorns are very interesting speakers. We have a couple sets at the shop Dr. Edgar made for Jack Elliano. We use them to test our 45 amp. In a couple weeks we will be visiting with Dr. Edgar who is interested in hearing our 300B on his set of Titans. Should be a lot of fun. It's unfortunate that there are not more of these speakers out there.
Yes I am enjoying the Takatsuki tubes very much and enjoy the Royal Princess also for a different flavor. I recently traded my Border Patrol smaller PSU's for Gary Dews new much larger XPS power supplies and OMG what a success...I love them and will post them in my system this weekend. Clio09 I would be interested in what Bruce thinks of your new 300B. I understand his health has withered and need to call him soon to see how he is doing. I also on occasion listen to my Korneff 45 and enjoy it very much. I run RCA NOS Globes and NU NOS in it and the tone is to die for. Hard to beat a good 45. I work for a bank managing 9 locations so my fun is sometimes limited but I do the best I can and the music is my other planet. I plan on posting my system this AM.
I have now posted my system and tried to describe some of the many changes to my Edgarhorn Titans. I know I have forgot something and will post when I figure it out. Bruce's system has a way to get the better quality of a horn system with dynamics, correct musical tonality, great imaging, very low distortion, while remaining more laid-back than most horns I have discovered. This system has had many changes over the years to get what I thought I wanted mostly with the vintage JBL drivers I consider some of the best. Horns are not plug and play and will extenuate any and all noise and errors. Get it right and game over IMO.
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