If it total hype, why has a known speaker manufacterer upgraded his one speaker with internal nordost wiring and it has made a significant sound difference
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Audiolabyrinth, I didn't take you the wrong way. I've read too many of your posts to know you are nothing other than a good guy. I know what you are saying about the insults; I don't like them either. Computeraudiophile is like a good sport. Its fun to watch every so often. Waxwaves, Let me take it a step further. If you don't clean your ears at all, it will be a perfectly good excuse to buy new equipment. You'll need better components to compensate for all the wax in your ears. Nyaudio98, Regarding your last post; Correct. Speaker companies want to make the best products they can. To do that, you need the best parts. |
Consider this..ever wonder where your local Broadcast companie's, TV Station's and Recording Studio's buy their cable's ? In the Seattle area where I live all the commercial companie's buy their I.C.'s and speaker cable's from Radar Inc. just north of Seattle. Call your local Radio and T.V. station's and Recording Studio's and talk to the sound engineer's and they will give you contact info of the local companie's they buy from. These supply house's have very good quality cable's at real world price's that are far lower priced than your local high end audio retail or online store's. |
@ audiozen,,Thats some very good info you have here!, However, The t.v.stations,recording studios,local radio stations cannot afford real cables!, The cables you are reffering to are junk!, I do know some world class recording studios and music venues like carnege hall, that use top tier Taralabs cables thru -out!, cheers! |
Really?..Very high priced interconnect's and speaker cable's did not exist back in the 50's and 60's. Yet some of the greatest recording's from that time from RCA, Columbia/CBS, Capitol, Atlantic are very much sought after today. Back then they were using "junk cable's" you refer to in the studio's. |
@ audiozen, Hi, I have never heard a recording that sounded like it was realistic sounding from the 50's and 6o's!, I believe those recordings that you are referring to were sought after for the music that was on them recordings only, not because of the quality of the recordings!, and I agree, the 50's and 60's recordings are sought after!,, In reality, not by anybody in their 20's or early 30's, just ole folks that are in their mid 50's to 75 years of age!, LOL! I am getting there, I am 46, I do like some 60's music, Janis joplin, the stones,jimie hendrix, etc..., the 50's, I have listened to alot of that, ask me what I just listened to, LOL!, I would not have a clue!,, cheers! |
Audiolabyrinth.."never heard a recording that sounded like it was realistic sounding from the 50's and 60's"..you gotta be kidding!!..RCA and Columbia were putting out stunning quality recordings in the late 50's. One darn good example is from the Grand Master himself, Miles Davis. The "Kind of Blue" album was released in August '59. The recent CD remaster issues are stunning to listen to. Back then the studio's were using all tube equipment in their sessions which is why many of the recordings from that time period sound so good. |
@ audiozen, Please forgive me, I am only 46 years of age, that should explain it to you, what do I know?, I never said I listened to an audiophile recording from that time period, I said I heard recordings that did not sound that good to me from that time period, your choices of that time period looks to be some sort of state of the art recordings from that time period that I really know nothing about,LOL!, Happy listening! |
The funny part is that I'm not kidding. I really don't know of any high end cable companies that give cables to studios. It sounds like a good idea. I'd do it if I had a cable company. Maybe its politics. Maybe its business. Where do you draw the line? $1000 per meter seems like a good cutoff point. I'm really not sure. |
@ zd542,,LOL! You got me laughing again!, please excuse me!, your contexts are hilarious! I am not aware of that happening my self! would be cool!, one station or studio would sound better than the next!, I think we are on to something!, how can the both of us make something like this really happen?, the cable companys would make alot of money thru promotion of the product!, lets get paid!, I am not kidding!,, cheers! |
I believe Analysis Plus does this free promotion with musicians and studios marketing. |
I'm almost afraid to post this, but here goes... I just started (okay, restarted) this hobby after a 25 year hiatus. I just upgraded my stock power cable (looks just like a computer power cable) to a Shunyata Venom 3. I can hear a big difference. My speakers sound better to me. I have not compared them to a $3000.00 cable. I don't need to do that. For the time being, I am quite smitten by this cable's contribution to my enjoyment. Perhaps, as I progress down this road of improvements, I will try another, better cable, but not now. I'm using simple 14 gauge speaker wire. I am told such and such speaker cable will have a huge impact. Since switching out my power cable had a noticeable effect, I am now willing to entertain the idea of better speaker cables. Just my humble thoughts. Regards... |
05-19-13: Mresseguie Oh-oh......Alice has just fallen down the rabbit hole! Buckle up for a long, strange trip! LOL! In all seriousness, I find it interesting that a power cord started this process for you. For most, myself included, finding changes in cables comes first, followed by experimenting with power cords. I concur that power cords are a trip unto themselves....welcome to Wonderland!! LOL!! |
Hello. I thank you for the welcome. The upgrade bug bit me a few months ago when I noticed a gentleman was offering to sell his Simaudio i3.3 Amplifier here on Agon. He was kind enough to sell it to me. I love it! That amp (even with an ordinary power cord) made my speakers sing! Now I'm thinking of upgrading to better, more 'appropriate' speakers. My wife and son already give me strange looks when I tell them about this or that piece of audio gear. ;-) |
My wife and kids don't give me strange looks anymore, they have adapted to my insanity. My wife will allow that my system sounds 'very nice' if pushed, but I know that she thinks it is a huge waste of money on the inside. So we just don't talk about it. I guess she feels the same way about my audio system as I feel about her wardrobe. Her clothes look very nice, but she spends waaaaay too much money on them. LOL!! The kids, they just don't get it.....an iPod is all the music that anyone needs in their opinion. So we are audio nuts....who cares??? |
"So we are audio nuts....who cares???" Maybe your wife and kids? Maybe more than you realize. Yeah, right who cares? But you gotta admit, if we are going to be honest, and we are honest, right? We are really a peculiar lot, even among ourselves. How about the cable issue for starters? And so begins the journey down the rabbit hole of belief vs atheism. And where lies the truth? Does anyone care but to boast their opinion? "I trust my ears". "It doesn't matter what your ears hear, an electrical signal passing through wire can not alter the sound" Naw, it's about the music with the wife in the background muttering under her breath, yeah, right! And you expect her to think that you aren't, at least a little bit nuts? At least with her clothes she is adorning herself with a visible end result while we bicker over minuata over what we can or can't hear. It's a funny thing, being an audiophile, that is. |
These last two post are a real reality!,Teach the kids to love music!, buy them an instrument, give them lessons!, when they are babys, play clasical music at low volumes at the crib!,, LOL!, by the time they are our age, well?, they will be like us!, Audiophiles!, How do I know?,LOL!, This happened to me!, cheers! |
No doubt the below links should be included in this thread, and probably some of the best answers. http://community.klipsch.com/forums/storage/4/1237745/Rodrigues%20-%20market%20quotes.jpg http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/2/29607/speaker_cables.gif http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=58443 Enjoy!! |
In response to the OP's question, the more I do this the less I believe in hype and the more comfortable I am with my own opinions of what makes a difference and what doesn't, at least to me. While I do hear differences between different cables, I hear far, far greater differences between different equipment and speakers. For example, I had some very good amps through here recently but regardless of what cables I used them with, they were never going to sound as good to me as my current amps. The cables were far and away secondary to the inherent sound of the amps. At the end of the day, cables are made from wire, dielectric and geometry (and not a small amount of psychological voodo). The differences I hear seem more associated with one of those three factors than with anything else. Of course, there are a lot of options such as solid vs. stranded, wire gauge, a single wire vs. multiple wires, silver vs. copper vs. other conductor materials, dielectric materials, minimal dielectric vs. well-damped, a wide range of connector options, and the sometimes overlooked factor of cable length. Isn't it interesting that cable manufacturers stay away from the question of length? Cables do not add to the quality of sound your equipment reproduces from your media, they can only degrade. Ever notice how many top equipment designers pride themselves on laying out internals to result in "short signal paths?" Then how can long cable runs possibly be a good thing for anyone but those selling cables? I have never heard adequate explanations from those manufacturers who say power cords should be a minimum of 2M in length, or speaker cables should be 8 feet long. The only thing I have heard that makes sense to me is to use cables that are long enough so they don't have to be bent or angled too sharply to make the connections. In other words, keep them as short as possible, but no shorter. Over the years, I have used top cables by Cardas, Purist, Acoustic Zen, Harmonic Technology, Audioquest, and others. They all sound different but, to me, none have ever made a fundamental change in the sound of the equipment they were connected to. I have found that I like the sound of cables made from high quality solid core copper wire with a minimal, natural dielectric and so my ICs and SCs are made by me using those materials, conventionally accepted geometries, and high quality connectors. I have some other manufactured cables around here that I occasionally use for comparison but I keep gravitating back to the sound of my own cables. I have made my power cords from premanufactured bulk cable that uses PCOCC wire, and they also have highly regarded terminations by Furutech or Oyaide. I simply have not found anything that I like better over the long run. Also, my cables are short. The longest cables in my system are barely over 1M in length, except for my one holdover manufactured cable, a 2M power cord by Isoclean that retails for over $1K. It sounds good but not any better than other PCs I have made. I only keep it because its not worth the effort of selling it on the used market just to replace it with something similar that I can make with bulk cable. That Isoclean power cable runs from a dedicated outlet to an Isoclean power filter that my front end gear is connected to. My amps are connected to individual dedicated 20A lines. I have found better noise reduction using dedicated lines than from any cables or power conditioners I have used. These discussions are fun to read because everyone has to travel their own path but the thing I find most interesting is the amount of money spent on cables to fulfill the obsession of creating a "perfect sound." Although not discounting the amount of engineering that goes into designing cables, I find the ratio of retail price to materials and manufacturing costs to be incredible. The cornerstone of a successful cable manufacturing company seems to be a good marketing department. Fortunately for the manufacturers, there have been no shortage of customers willing to pay large amounts of money on cables so their systems can reach "the next plateau." I wonder how many veils can be lifted, or how many plateaus can be reached, by spending money on cables instead of investing in better electronics and/or speakers? I will close by saying there are certainly systems much more resolved and better sounding than mine, and I respect the opinions of those who say expensive cables make a profound difference in the sound of their systems. My comments simply reflect my own opinions and viewpoints after doing this audio thing for awhile now. We all hear what we hear, we all have our own individual system goals, and we all enjoy tinkering with our systems or we wouldn't be here - happy listening. |
Mitch2, have you tried any of Tara Labs higher end offerings? I had no idea what a cable could do for a good system until I used Tara Labs Air 1 speaker and interconnect cable. I thought Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval was as good as I could do on my budget. Some older and more experienced gentlemen here on the forum turned me on to Tara Labs. I now have the overwhelming sense that this is a very serious audio system I am living with. Good luck with your system and happy listening to you as well! |
@ mitch2, I enjoyed reading your post, very well written!, however, I am one of the gentlemen you are referring to!, I believe cables are, if not more important than eanything in a system!, Thats my many, many years experience!, Its just an opinion!, like yours!, my cables cost way more than my entire system cost!, and my system is an exspensive one to me!, I have about $65,000.00 retail price!, Of course I do not Have that kind of money into it!, LOL!,I try to save money!, cheers to you! |
Mitch2, So what you are trying to say is that if you choose your components carefully, then all you need the cables to do is transfer signal from one component to the next? That will probably make choosing the right cable a lot easier and far less costly. No? Audiolabyrinth, "I am one of the gentlemen you are referring to!, I believe cables are, if not more important than eanything in a system!, Thats my many, many years experience!, Its just an opinion!, like yours!, my cables cost way more than my entire system cost!, and my system is an exspensive one to me!, I have about $65,000.00 retail price!" You must have a mean streak. You through out a comment like that and you don't even say what kind of cables you have! If they're that good, I need to get some. If I had to guess I'd say Kimber, or maybe Monster? Which one is it? |
So what you are trying to say is that if you choose your components carefully, then all you need the cables to do is transfer signal from one component to the next? That will probably make choosing the right cable a lot easier and far less costly. No?Not exactly, but rather that while different cables do sound different to me I have not found a good correlation between money spent and sound quality, and also that money spent on electronics and speakers generally offers greater improvements than on cables. I am not saying that just any old wire will sound good. My SCs and ICs are multiple wire, solid core, thin gauge, high quality copper in a minimal natural dielectric. SCs are star quad configured with separate runs for LF and MF/HF in biwire. ICs are either consistently spaced single wire or braided multiple wire. They all have high quality connectors. The cables are as short as possible while facilitating a relaxed routing between gear. I spent a lot of years, and a lot of time, trying different manufactured cables and DIY cables and believing the next great thing would make a significant improvement but often being disappointed. I am sure there are great sounding cables out there and I would like to try them but I no longer feel compelled to keep trying new things. |
Hey Mitch2, first let me say that I really like your preamp! Looking very nice! Bet it sounds great too! Would love to be able to collaborate with Steve have something similar done with my TLC-1 Deluxe. Do you have remote volume control? I really want to go all out, but I just cannot afford a VRE-1 at this time. I recently picked up a DNA-1 Deluxe with Gold Edition upgrades from SMcAudio. This tapped out my audio budget, but was well worth the price paid! Next, I must tell you that the Tara Labs Air 1 sc and ic cabling in my system has changed the game for me. I experienced huge improvements in sound quality and musical enjoyment in comparison to the many cables I had tried in the past! So there are significantly better cables out there worth trying. |
Hi Mitch2, I bet those Clayton M-300 amps sound incredible. I bet they have your AA 9 speakers in a vise-grip! I owned a pair of Clayton Audio M-100 monoblock amps a few years back, and IMHO, Wilson Shen and Stan Klyne are two of the best solid state designers in the business. I regret selling them. Steve McCormack does very good work as well. Those three men put out products that consistently embarrass many more expensive, better advertised solid state gear. |
Audio will always be a personal thing. You cannot think for others. Respect them, you don't have to agree with eachother. But be polite. I have my own opinion as well. At the end it is about what you hear. In the last 10 years I did a lot of blind tests for my clients. Many were amazed about the quality what cables can give these days. What I do is making an a-b comparison. I Always use a cheaper spource, amp or speaker with a not expensive cable. And a more expensive cable with a less expensive source, amp or speaker. So people understand more easilly what the difference is. These days the quality is so good that I can get a higher end result with a more expensive cable and less expensive source, amp or speaker. I want every client to get the most for the money they spend. So I Always give them different options to choose. In highend audio without the best available cables you Always will loose. I love audioshows because I like to blow every other set away. This gives me always a very big smile on my face. Good cables help me a lot to achieve this. |
@ Bo1972, I love your post here, I realized cables were the game changer all the way back in 1996 and 1997, when I used The Taralabs the one with grounding stations, and the Taralabs the one speaker cables to silence the laughing on a spectral, avalon, mit system!, I took the spectral amp out and replaced it with a Krell fpb 600, and ripped out all of the top of the line mit cables that had these ridiculous boxes in the signal path on the cables!The Krell, Taralabs combo put a priceless look on their faces, I will never forget as long as I live!, It was proven to all that laughed at what I was doing, The Taralabs cables are better than mit cables, and Krell was way more musical than spectral!,, cheers! |
I sold MIT cables and I owned the most expensive Powercables. The problem of MIT is that they can give a wide and deep stage. But the individual focus of instruments and voices is not sharp as in real. Avalon users are told thay they should use MIT. How stuppid can you be? This is only based on personal interests. Avalon you need cables who can give a very sharp individual focus. I recently sold a Avalon Oak to a client/friend with Avalon speakers. It was superior to the e 5000,0 MIT cable in every aspect. Now he has the sharpest individual focys I ever heard from an Avalon speaker. The boxes MIT uses give you less mid freq. The Oak was superior in the mid freq. So much more musical and richer mid freq. People want you to believe that you should use a brand they say. F.....'m. I can promiss you one thing: YOU WILL NOT GET THE BEST CABLE FOR THE MONEY YOU SPEND. |