Cables are important, however you can get to 90% of the highest qualty with very small price if you are careful. |
"I think that's only because you can't interchange them. Otherwise I think I would see posts about low-loss versus FR-4 circuit boards."
So True! They worry about the stuff that's 'easy' to 'upgrade'. |
Al, I of course agree, and called out cables needing to be application-appropriate earlier (only to have Nonoise twist my words around), but you know full well that's not what many of these folks are arguing for. They're arguing that two cables that measure alike can sound different. That even connectors can sound different.
To everyone else, regarding what we can and can't measure, I've got news for the non-technical among us, the level of design sophistication that goes in audio system cables, the frequency range and the voltages involved, are just so much child's play in modern electrical engineering. If you've got a new Intel-based PC you have 8 giga-transfer per conductor signals in it, using some incredibly complex signaling techniques. Just coming us with the design rules for circuitry like that takes years of research. Audio cables are first or second year BSEE stuff.
The only thing underlying the controversy with cables, IMO, is that one can interchange them. I don't hear anyone pondering audible differences in circuit board materials, single versus double-sided circuit boards, or the gauge or type of internal wiring, and I think that's only because you can't interchange them. Otherwise I think I would see posts about low-loss versus FR-4 circuit boards. |
Audiolabyrinth, wow... I bet you've really been enjoying this, LOL! send for more popocorn now!!! Thank you for the kind comments regarding my post 3.7.13! And ditto the respect sir. You too Jmcgrogan, Frogman, Zd542 I enjoyed your comments also. Nonoise, you are a true poet! Props to you for the highly thoughtful posts well worded.
Is science capable of explaining the differences we hear in cables? Measurements do prove differences in cabling exists. There has been some real research done with things like current bunching & skin effect. Also characteristic impedance of cabling which involves series resistance and series inductance, shunt capacitance, shunt conductance, etc. Learn about the latest cable research if ya need some cable science so badly.
When most music/audio enthusiasts or musicians hear something like a cable improving the quality of the listening experience, do they care so much about the reasons why? No not really. One will buy it, build it, do it anyway just because it sounds "better" than before and they can hear the difference.
I suppose the cable no-believers can hear no audible difference between vacuum tubes either? Yet, tube rolling has become a popular sport! I guess there is NO reason for adding upgrade wiring, hi grade capacitors, higher quality resistors, connectors, binding post, etc to our hi-end components and speakers either... that's just hype too correct? Oh, and why would we ever send our beloved 62' Fender Telecaster out to the custom shop?? Why?? Finally, cable non-believers, why on earth would we ever do something like rewire a tonearm???
Because it sounds better now than it did before and we can hear the difference.
|
I can't comment on the value of high priced cables because my money would be better spent buying better gear, but I suspect they can tweak sound one way or the other. In my mid-fi priced system, 12/2 Romex unterminated sounds good. Easy to find too.
One question I have: when you crack the cover on your gear, have you seen the wiring on the input/output terminals? Does it look like Purist or Anno Domini or Cantibile Beatificus or whatever? Mine looks like 14 gauge automotive wire. I then wonder why I would finish the circuit with an expensive cable when it starts and ends with basic copper cable? |
03-10-13: Zd542
Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid. I'd like to add to Zd's characteristically knowledgeable and level-headed post the self-evident point that analysis also has its place in the scientific method. To cite a few examples, the first two of which are somewhat extreme but not completely unrealistic: It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that the difference between 10 foot interconnect cables having capacitances of 50 pf/ft and 10 pf/ft is likely be audible to those with unimpaired hearing if used at the output of a resistor-based passive preamp having typically high output impedance. It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that the difference between a 20 foot speaker cable having high inductance and one having low inductance is likely to be audible to those with unimpaired hearing if used with electrostatic speakers whose impedance descends to 1 ohm or so at 20 kHz (which is not uncommon). It is easily possible to demonstrate by analysis that differences in phono cable capacitance will have a profound effect on the sonics of moving magnet cartridges. So cable differences can be audible. The question then becomes how much less extreme can the circumstances become before reports of claimed differences are sufficiently implausible that they are more likely to be the result of the placebo effect or failure to recognize and control extraneous variables. Obviously the answer will vary considerably from system to system and from listener to listener, and each listener will have to make his or her own judgment about that. My bottom-line feeling, however, is that as with most things in life the best answer is likely to fall somewhere in the middle ground between the ideological extremes. Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid. Not sure that those should necessarily be treated as separate issues. It often seems to be implicit in the arguments of those at the "believer" end of the spectrum that the existence of differences suggests that "more expensive" has a high likelihood of being "better." And the basic motivation of those at the "skeptic" end of the spectrum often seems to be to dispel that belief. For the several reasons I expressed in my earlier posts in this thread, and perhaps for other more cynical reasons that could be cited, my belief is that the correlation between performance and price, while significantly greater than zero, should not be expected to be a strong one. Best regards, -- Al |
Test this... Regina Carter - "Paganini: After A Dream" |
....(and) "What a miracle it is that someone can reproduce something that is capable of touching our emotions" - Frogman.
My nomination for the Nobel Prize!!!! |
I think the real problem here is that people on both sides of the argument are letting their emotions dictate where all of this is going. As the thread goes on, everyone just gets more aggravated and the insults keep piling up; on both sides.
"Here Irv, you are implying that if it cannot be measured, it cannot be heard. So don't say that you and Rok aren't making any implications or statements about science being your master. We say if it can be heard but not measured, science hasn't figured out what to measure yet.
I can take two speakers that measure the same, yet they will not sound the same, why is that? Science can't explain that..........yet."
I just want to clarify what I think we are talking about here. And that is, are we able to hear differences in the way differences cables sound? That's the question I want to answer. Issues such as whether one think cables are priced fairly or how much of a difference they make, is for another thread. That stuff is just personal opinion; everyones answer is valid.
Looking at the above quote from Jmcgrogan2, I have to disagree. Just because you can't measure the differences in the way cables sound, using traditional measurements, doesn't mean you can't use science to prove the differences exist. Measuring is just one scientific method. If all we are looking to do is confirm that 2 cables can sound different from each other, a well conducted listening test is just as valid.
I've worked in this industry for most of my adult life and had the opportunity to be involved in many listening tests over the years (Not all of the tests involved cables. We tested other components, as well.). The results are very clear. Even factoring in for error the evidence was such that there could be no possibility of a chance occurrence. The differences were real.
I fully understand that I won't even come close to changing anyones opinion on the matter. And that's fine. No one has any good reason to take my word for anything. I will suggest, though, since so many people take the time to post on threads like this, they really care about this issue. Why not just get together with a few people that share this common interest, and conduct some of your own tests? I can't tell you what the results will be, but I'm pretty sure no one will regret taking part in it. |
@ chayro,Hi,I was a professional musician for years my self!,good cables even make a difference on microphones versus cheap ones,I know I was the singer!,thou not as a big of difference than with cables for high-end audio systems!,@ rok2id,To tell you the truth I like Belden cables!,They are very good for the money,back in 1997 I had a krell fpb 200 amplifier that came stock with a beldin a/c power cord,me and some friends put alot of money together to rent alot of after market a/c power cords from the cable company,I recall we rented 5 different brands at the $600.00 price point,cables are very system dependent!,on that krell amp,the beldin stock cord was better sounding in every way!,the other cables sounded like crap!,still here, we have a difference in the sound of cables!,rok2id you have a good cable for the pricepoint you paid!,better than alot of cables costing a little more!,obviously you had to have heard a difference with the blue jean beldin cables versus lowes hardware store brand cables,I believe this,you bought the blue jean beldin cables..cheers,and happy listening to all! |
OK, Rock. My cable vs. the cheapo cable OF YOUR CHOICE! Let's tweak this challenge: you send me the cheapo, non-audiophile (generic, "came-in-the-box") cable of your choice and I will live with it for one week. Then you come over, and we do the test as stated above. Yes, my cable is store bought, and not tweaked.
You win, you get my copy of KOB. I win, you stop your rants against cables and Coltrane; that's enough for me. We post the results. The invitation is open; just let me know. |
The audio road is littered with stuff that measured great and sounded like crap. |
03-09-13: Audiolabyrinth
I have a financial incentive,,I will bet thousands of dollars that anybody that can not hear a difference between Taralabs zero gold,nordost odin against whatever cables that a non believer that cables do not make a difference can produce! Easy there big fella, you do understand that if you don't want to hear differences, you won't. Hell, for thousands of dollars, I would tell you that I couldn't hear any difference either. ;) |
03-08-13: Irvrobinson
At least with active components there are measured differences, and it's a matter of argument over what's audible. Here Irv, you are implying that if it cannot be measured, it cannot be heard. So don't say that you and Rok aren't making any implications or statements about science being your master. We say if it can be heard but not measured, science hasn't figured out what to measure yet. I can take two speakers that measure the same, yet they will not sound the same, why is that? Science can't explain that..........yet. |
Let me add something to the mix. I spent half my life as a professional musician and I was fortunate to get into the NY recording scene very early and I was doing demos in the 80s up at RCA studios and other famous ones as well. I thought I was pretty much a hotshot and I made my first recording. When I listened to the playback, I was astounded. The playback did not sound at all as good as what I THOUGHT I played - it was much worse. I then realized that I wasn't hearing was I was playing, but hearing what I thought I was playing. Somehow, my brain got into the middle of the ear/music making parts and twisted things around. It took me a long time of playing and listening to playbacks to sync them up to a point where I could hear what I played in real time and it would sound on tape just as I heard it in the studio - but that took time. Time to get that funhouse out of your brain that makes you think you're great when you're not. The brain that makes a skinny woman see herself in the mirror and think she's fat. I can guarantee you the drugs and alcohol were the 3-in-1 oil that kept the ears wired directly to the performance without the freakin brain stickin' it's nose in and convincing you that you're hearing what you played.
Maybe this will make some sense to some - once the human mind gets in the middle of things, a lot of strange roads are taken. I think that through years of training, I can actually hear what I'm hearing, uneffected by whatever funhouse mirror the brain adds into the process.
I don't think everyone will undertstand this, but I know some of you will. I do respect all of your view though. Rok - I do own a pair of 10 gauge Beldens with welded connectors and they're fine. I could problably live with them and enjoy my music just as much. I don't own any crazy wires, but I do think my ViVa speaker cables make the speakers sound far more open and clear, as if the window to the band is open wider. But when I get bored, I'll go back to the beldens for a few months and enjoy them and then swithch back to the ViVas and did the more open, less hi-fi presentation.
Gentlemen and Ladies - please don't let our disagreements divide us. We are predominantly a dying breed, so let's enjoy the waning years. Any of you are invited by to listen to some beatuful music and have a steak. Really. |
Seriously, I would take the bet as you stated it. All that your results would have to be, is greater than guessing. One change. it should be between your wire and a cheapo wire. And your wire must be store bought without any sort of mod.
Practice! And kiss that 'Kind Of Blue' goodbye.
Cheers |
"What do I get if I can do it? "
All of my Ornette Coleman and Don Pullen CDs. :) |
Ok, here's a challenge, Rok. If you find yourself in the NYC area, you are welcome to come to my place for a listening session. Here is what I propose:
We will listen to the same LP side in its entirety using one of the two wires that I sometimes use between my phono stage and my preamp; Nordost and Siltech. Then, I will step out of my listening room and you will swap the cable for the other; or leave the same one in. The phono stage will be situated in such a way that I won't be able to see which cable is connected. We will do this ten times. I will bet you my Columbia Six-Eye "Kind Of Blue" that I will be able to tell you at least nine out of ten times which cable is in the system. What do I get if I can do it? |
Well you speak of these 'men' as if they were 'gods' Rok. As if they know all that there is to know. As in 'turn out the lights, there is nothing more that we can learn/understand'.
IMHO, science is ever-evolving. As the human mind grows, so does science. Science cannot explain everything yet, however, folks like you and Irv do not realize that. You feel that everything there is to know is already known. Maybe that is why many here feel that naysayers are close-minded.
Science is a wonderful tool for all of mankind, forgive me if I do not worship at the foot of the altar or become a member of your cult of scientology.
Just because science cannot explain why folks hear differences in 2013, does not mean science will not have a better understanding of human hearing in 2113.
Have some faith in the human mind Rok! You may not believe it, but we will continue to gain knowledge of our world and universe as time marches on.
Pass the popcorn please.... Well, this post takes the cake. Rock2id and I don't understand that science is evolving? We think everything is already known? And whatever we said about science and engineering has anything to do with Scientology? This has nothing to do with human hearing, this has everything to do with the signals at the opposite end of two properly design cables being identical. Are you seriously saying that two identical signals can produce different sounds out of the same amp or speaker? Seriously? (I'll concede that my use of the term "cure" may have been mostly incorrect, though some cancers are indeed cured by surgery, most do more properly go into remission. My apologies for being imprecise.) Jmc... , you're really reaching. Neither one of us said or implied any of that malarky you're spewing, and I think you know it. I'll also concede that this discussion is no longer entertaining. You've worn me out. I had forgotten what it was like to have a discussion with people who fervently believe the cable lie. Thanks for the reminder. |
Again I am being misunderstood. I AM NOT saying scientist should take a piece of wire in a lab and analyze it, then say if humans can hear it.
I am saying this. How do we know what are 'normal' glucose levels in humans? Normal blood pressure? All of these 'norms' are based on studies involving thousands of people.
Now, I am saying, let Thousands of people undergo testing setup by compenent people. All over the country with standardized test. Audiophiles are welcome. of course they can't bring their own wire. that would like taking your own cards to vegas! All they need is for ONE person to demostrate he / she is able to hear wire. Once that ONE person is certified as being able to hear wire, this Debate is OVER!! Just ONE!! They will have proven, that at the least, some HUMANS, can hear wire.
People in science know how to do controlled tests. These will be people without an agenda.
If I had the wherewithal, it would have already been done.
Cheers |
The mistake that is made is the assumption that science is capable of explaining these things at all. Who says it can? Or that it should? We are talking about the sound of music; human expression. In all the talk about wether differences in cables (and whatever else) can be heard or not, very little time is spent talking about music; what it is, and what a miracle it is that one can reproduce something that is capable of touching our emotions. Can a "scientific" explanation really be expected to fully explain that which is the result of the soul of a performer; and how it may touch any given listener's sensibilities? I don't mean to get overly metaphysical about this, but to make this leap is to not really understand just how deep and fragile music is. That it can travel, via electrons, through a maze of electronic componentry and come out the other end sounding anything like the original is truly miraculous. That it should be altered to some degree by any and all the parts of that maze should not be a surprise at all.
Science has, for decades, been trying to analyze what it is that makes Stradivarius violins sound the way they do. They have analyzed every single aspect of their makeup; down to analysis of the varnish and glue used, in the hope of being able to replicate their sonic magic. They can't do it. |
Ridiculous but hilarious. These threads are always meaningless but entertaining, plus the insult one-upmanship comes in handy in other walks of life. |
Wow!,man-o-man did I miss the party!,I was tied up a couple of days,poped some popcorn and read both sides of the debate here,I have a financial incentive,,I will bet thousands of dollars that anybody that can not hear a difference between Taralabs zero gold,nordost odin against whatever cables that a non believer that cables do not make a difference can produce!,these two cables are in a group that is the best available,the differences between these cables and whatever else that can be produced by a nonbeliever will not be subtle!,It would be like going from an rca all in one box stereo system to a Dan D Agistino momentum mono block amplifier at $42,500 a pair!,again the differences will not be subtle!more like huge to say the least!,if anyone would say,how does he know?,lets just say I have lived with these world class cables before and lived with the rca and many of Dan D Agistino engineered products and $1.00 to $10.00 a foot cables. Irvrobinson and rok2id,welcome back to the thread,thankyou for keeping the thread alive and well,thou I did not start it,It is interesting and entertaining,cheers and happy listening to all! |
A man goes to the doctor - the doctor says "I have terrible news. You have cancer, you have alzheimers" and the man says "well, thank God I don't have cancer". One of my favorite Gilbert Gottfried jokes. |
*remission*, not submission. ;) |
BTW Irv, cancers are not 'cured', they may be sent into submission, but they are not cured. Almost everyone who is diagnosed with cancer will die of cancer, eventually, unless they are hit by a bus or something sooner.
I know many, many folks who were 'cured' of cancer, then died of cancer later on. |
Well you speak of these 'men' as if they were 'gods' Rok. As if they know all that there is to know. As in 'turn out the lights, there is nothing more that we can learn/understand'.
IMHO, science is ever-evolving. As the human mind grows, so does science. Science cannot explain everything yet, however, folks like you and Irv do not realize that. You feel that everything there is to know is already known. Maybe that is why many here feel that naysayers are close-minded.
Science is a wonderful tool for all of mankind, forgive me if I do not worship at the foot of the altar or become a member of your cult of scientology.
Just because science cannot explain why folks hear differences in 2013, does not mean science will not have a better understanding of human hearing in 2113.
Have some faith in the human mind Rok! You may not believe it, but we will continue to gain knowledge of our world and universe as time marches on.
Pass the popcorn please.... |
We don't need no stinking scientist (sierra madre), we got gurus!!
hahahahahahahahahaha
Cheers |
"That explains why the world is free of hunger and disease. Thanks to these wonderful, all-knowing men of medicine and science, no one has to fear cancer or any affliction anymore. LOL!!!
What a tool!!!"
Now, this post should tell any and every one, all they need to know about the intellectual level of the pro-wire crowd.
Nothing more need be said!
Cheers |
That explains why the world is free of hunger and disease. Thanks to these wonderful, all-knowing men of medicine and science, no one has to fear cancer or any affliction anymore. LOL!!!
What a tool!!! Well, you do live a lot longer than your great grandparents probably would have, and some cancers are cured daily. And seven billion people are pretty well fed, overall, and the US is going to be energy self-sufficient in a few years, and I can type this response from my iPhone, a technical miracle by comparison to anything that goes on in an audio cable. I'm not sure what your point is, but whatever it is it still mystifies me how people like yourself can argue about the validity of science and engineering via a medium that would not exist without a very deep understanding of the science and engineering you claim is so inadequate. |
03-09-13: Rok2id
I am speaking of scientific research. No 'audiophiles' allowed!! Just men of medicine and science. They know how to do 'real' research to discover the truth. That explains why the world is free of hunger and disease. Thanks to these wonderful, all-knowing men of medicine and science, no one has to fear cancer or any affliction anymore. LOL!!! What a tool!!! |
Rok2kid, "If they proved it could be heard"
What if a blind test with multi participants were conducted, as with some members reported experiences (here) in which all in attendance came to the same conclusion that a clear winner was agreed upon in the given test system, was clipped on you tube for the anyone to hear. Would you then be able to make a valued opinion played back through a pair of laptop speakers? |
This has nothing to do with stereo systems or ears or any of the rest of this audiophile mumbo jumbo. I am speaking of scientific research. No 'audiophiles' allowed!! Just men of medicine and science. They know how to do 'real' research to discover the truth. They can find out if humans can hear wire. Tell them the question, they will find the answer.
The problem is, this subject does not even show up on the radar of normal people. Why would anyone go thru the time, effort and expense to keep a few strange people from self-delusion. They are harmless. Sooo, I don't think we will see my proposal happen anytime soon.
If the scammers made any claims for their product,then they would subject to law suit. And then they would have to prove all this magic in open court. But, they don't make any claims,. the marks do that for them. It's the perfect scam! It also has to be the most profitable business this side of drug dealing, and without the deadly 'gone bad' thingy.
When the Lord was handing out gifts, he shouted BRAINS!, but the wire folks thought he said RAIN, and they ran for cover!
But, like I said, you are harmless, and it's your money. So who really cares. Just a way to pass time on the 'gon.
Cheers |
Anyone else here feel like a dog chasing his tail? LOL!! |
Rok2id,
This is the last post I'll make on this subject until someone else forgets and posts another thread on the matter, starting it all over again.
Your suggestion on DBT has already been shot down. Your victory screed of rising above the fray, waving your sword, and claiming victory is a poor take on St. Crispens speech. DBT has adherents who say there are no differences in properly designed amps and speakers as well. Next thing you know, people will be driven in cars, flown on planes, seated in restaurants, listen to live opera, all blindfolded, and dared to proclaim differences as to car, aircraft, food and singer and then told it's all in their heads.
But if you feel strongly enough about it, by all means, proceed to the other threads here and do your level best to knock them down as well. With all the threads about cables, amps and speakers, you and the naysayers could make a career of it. Maybe you could do a sequel to "The Prestige".
:-)
All the best,
Nonoise |
Irvrobinson:
Once again you have fought the good fight. All points excellent, and right on point. But this will never end because, There is no incentive for the wire folks to submit to scientific examination. And I mean FINANCIAL incentive. Think about this:
If all the folks who buy, test, review, make and sell this stuff would prove that wire can be heard, this debate would be over before noon today. If they proved it could be heard, the wire business would increase 1000-fold. They would make more money than ever. Hell, I would buy wire!!
Then why don't they do this? well it's the other side of the coin that is holding things up. Failure! If they can't hear it, it's 1929 all over again in the wire business. The scammers would still be rich of course, I am sure the homes in aspen and miami are paid for by now. But, there would be a lot of unhappy campers out there is audio land. Imagine sitting before your system, looking at tens of thousands of dollars worth of, well, wire. Wire that could have been purchased for a few hundred at most. Wire that is now worthless, except for carrying audio signals.
I hope I live to see this fraud exposed. I want to HEAR and SEE what the gurus will say then. Will they be able to show their faces ever again. What will happen to the audio Mags? What a wonderful prospect! I think they will say the equivalent of 'Never Mind'(gildna), and then fade away to enjoy their ill gotten gains. Remember this is not the first or only scam in audio. You people have been had before! It's just the biggest and most lucrative. And it surely will not be the last!
Advice: If you now own very expensive guru wire, SELL IT NOW! No one will ever know. Because when the crash comes, and it will, you won't be left holding the bag. Like the worthless stock certificates of 1929.
Cheers |
Irv & Nonoise, thanks for the kind words.
Best regards,
-- Al |
I've disagreed with you but never mentioned your maturity or experience. I simply doubt you or your systems aural acuity as there are cables laying about my place that all sound different And here you go again. My hearing or my system is called into doubt. There are only two possibilities. One possibility is that these cables do measure differently, in terms of the frequency response in your system, and in that case one or more of them is poorly designed. The other possibility is that they all measure the same and you're just imagining the differences. |
Why don't we all just agree to disagree and go on to better/other things? Because there are no better issues for cables. |
|
Reminds of the old saying: "There's two sides to every story, mine and the a**holes". :^) |
Just when one of these threads dies down another rears its ugly head. Agreement will never be reached between the two opposing schools of thought here. Why don't we all just agree to disagree and go on to better/other things?
These discussions never end well and eventually descend into vitriol, name calling and worse. |
If you put Transparent interconnects and speaker cables into your system and you can not hear a huge improvement over a conventional cable, then you are DEAF! |
Al,
Thanks again, for chiming in. Your insight is always welcome, comprehensive, and calming. Would it be that we all had that same discipline.
Irv,
I've disagreed with you but never mentioned your maturity or experience. I simply doubt you or your systems aural acuity as there are cables laying about my place that all sound different that anyone who has been to my place can attest to and none of them are badly or improperly made and that work in any system. None of them were that expensive nor would I condone dropping mucho coin on cables unless one could afford to. I know I can't.
Simple as that, all mass delusion theories aside.
I, and others, do hear a difference. As I've said earlier here and elsewhere, I've come across people who do hear the difference but simply don't think it makes that big a difference and it's only been through debating it that they finally admit it.
I believe it due to the nature of this hobby and the ridiculous prices some pay thinking it will make a dramatic difference in their lives. (this is not to impugn Audiolabrynth who's took a different and interesting route in assembling his system).
This enmity seems to be a in the form of a redress of sorts taken up with a well intentioned but misguided belief that one can set things straight if only they scold others enough.
It's only a discussion.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Al, I always enjoy your posts. You're a classy guy. I understand your position, that classical theory tells you shouldn't hear cable differences, but in a system context you feel you still do. I can take leaps of faith for audibility with active components, but cables? At least with active components there are measured differences, and it's a matter of argument over what's audible. Even then most of us fail the blinded tests. Amplifiers, especially, can be load-sensitive, but cables aren't, and there's just nowhere to stand. How do you reconcile that? Or do you just give in to your whatever your mind desires? ;-) (A position, incidentally, that I understand completely, as long as one is honest about what's happening.) |
The following was written before seeing Irv’s most recent post, the last paragraph of which touches on aspects of this controversy that are somewhat similar:
In the midst of all the disagreement, I think that there is one thing pretty much everyone would agree on. If in fact there are audibly significant differences among cables, those differences are not fully explainable on the basis of generally recognized science.
On the one hand, the effects that resistance, inductance, and capacitance will have under some circumstances are readily explainable, and can be analyzed quantitatively. The role that cables may play in ground loop effects, emi/rfi pickup, and (at least in the case of digital cables) impedance mismatch effects, are readily explainable, although not readily predictable or quantifiable.
On the other hand, various explanations of the claimed benefits of high priced cables, involving things like strand jumping, metal purity, dielectric absorption, skin effect, time alignment, etc., while perhaps providing the basis for effective marketing literature, are either speculative or do not have established thresholds that quantitatively define the point separating what may be sonically significant from what is insignificant.
All of which raises an interesting question, that seems to be rarely if ever discussed. If cable differences are not fully explainable on the basis of generally recognized science, upon what principles and upon what basis do the cable designers design the cables?
The likely answer, as I see it: Upon some combination of trial and error, using a relatively limited number of systems; pet theories, whose applicability across a wide variety of systems is unproven; and, perhaps most significantly in the case of expensive cables, by overkilling every parameter that the cable designer considers to possibly be relevant. With the degree of overkill increasing as the price of the cable increases.
In earlier posts in this thread I addressed how system dependency, especially the dependency of many cable effects on technical characteristics of the components that are being connected, can be expected to loosen the correlation between cable performance and cable price. Each of the three approaches to cable design and development that are listed in the preceding paragraph can be expected to further loosen that correlation.
Regards,
-- Al
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Irv, to say I believe in differences is not an insult but for you to hear it is?.
That's rich. Oh come now, Nonoise, I'm not talking about the discussion of possible differences being bandied about, I was referring to the insults and negativity, which you true believers seem to want to reserve for yourselves. Let's see, I've been called immature, that I lack experience, that I lack listening ability, that I'm closed-minded, and that's just you. And, of course, I'm an ass, according to my new friend Bandy. (Well, that might be true.) And what is the net of your argument, that you and other believers say so? And that some of them design amplifiers and speakers? This is evidence? All this is evidence of is mass delusion, or perhaps just some people saying what sells in some cases. Anyone that builds amps using hook-up wire you buy by the spool knows that the signal on that cheap-o wire, the wire that's just stranded copper with some teflon wrapped around it, is carrying the same signal as that special geometry, proprietary mix of various vintages of copper and silver, with four layers of some special insulation, and perhaps a battery-powered dielectric. Believe me they know. So do the speaker guys. They're building crossovers, and they know too. Oh yeah, they're choosing all of this so carefully. Especially the tube amp guys with their steel-pinned tubes and sockets that have mechanical play in them. Why is it that the cable fallacy soldiers on when there is not one valid theory about why such differences exist, or even one test case that shows anyone was able to tell the difference between cables, no less which one is actually better, any more than one would expect by random chance? Yet we have people who claim that not only are there differences, but that they can design cables to sound a certain way. Which is more likely, that cable vendors know some secrets no one else does, or that they just make stuff up that markets well, like funny geometries or some special mix of conductor materials, and says whatever it takes to make the sale? |
@ IRvRobinson,Hi,I am glad you are in this thread!,I thought the thread was coming to a demise,you have breathed new life back in this thread!,thankyou! |
Irv, to say I believe in differences is not an insult but for you to hear it is?.
That's rich.
That would be like one religion saying another religion insults them just for being different. Presupposing a superior position can only lead to a falling of sorts. Now when one is called silly when one had nothing better to say, is an insult. My response is nothing more than a response to an insult.
There is a planet full of amp and speaker designers out there of repute who would disagree with you. Nothing non-sensical in that. They all have preferences in cabling based on their design. That speaks volumes.
Engaging those professionals at the next audio show you go to would go a long way provided some of them might be willing to discuss it with you.
As for your analogy of who is a flat earther, I disagree. A flat earther would say what is apparent is only what can be seen, so the earth would seem flat. Even before it could be observed otherwise, it was supposed that it wasn't. That would be those who believe otherwise, or in our case, the cable difference believers.
All the best,
Nonoise |
Knghifi, mine are newer 2m that I usually only use for 2 subwoofers. The Linns will be connected to my sources for sure. I have an all tube system and liked the Nordosts, but their cost is not justified. Only their powercords make a difference. I even have the Blue Heaven Rev II bi wires, and they are good, but the sound was the same using Morrow Audio SP4 bi wires, and Kimber TC4 TC8 and TC12 single wires. Happy listening. |
