Cable Burn In

I have been involved with hifi both consumer and high end .. I have heard 100's of systems go thru burn in and have heard changes not just my system but many systems over a period of years .. ignore the haters 

mapman
There are only two paradigms really for how people approach things based on technology like hifi.

First is is the one I subscribe to which is try my hardest to understand how things work and use that knowledge to guide the way. That is how all new real technological innovations work.

The other is to rely mainly on faith in lieu of actual knowledge to guide the way.

Many things in in life are beyond human understanding and best handled by a combo of both.

Audio it is not one of those things. It is best handled by acquiring real knowledge. Hearsay alone may not deliver truly great results. Things that cannot be explained essentially translate to happening by magic ie nobody can factually account for what is observed.

>>>>>To summarize, a sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

”If I could explain it to the average guy they wouldn’t have given me the Nobel prize.” - Richard Feynman.

”Knowledge can be defined as what’s left after you subtract all the stuff you forgot from school.” - old audiophile axiom

@nonoise

Is this "engineer" who used to work for a cable company who all naysayers say is good enough for audiophiles and who appears to make little on his cables wrong?

I don't know.  He might be.  Again...the company he left does not see it necessary to make any such claims.  That an engineer who left Belden makes claims about burn-in doesn't mean it's true.

Has he offered anything other than anecdote or opinion on the subject?  Like, showing measurable differences between his cables when new vs burned in?  


@blueranger

I have a Duotech cable burner that has a setting for interconnects and speaker wire. Earlier this year I was burning in some new interconnects and after 2 days had realized I had used the speaker wire setting. I hooked them up to my stereo and they sounded horrible. No dimension and flat sounding. I knew they would settle back in like the exact other models in my system and they did. What's the point is that cable burn in does change the sound. I had some silver cables that sounded strident and I finally just burned them a week. When I plugged them in they sounded much better.

Yes there are many such anecdotes from audiophiles.  But I'm left wondering: what in the world do you think is actually *happening* to the cables to "ruin" the sound in your scenario?    What could the technical explanation possibly be?

@butch01

I listened to at least 15 minutes of that CD and 45 minutes to 2hrs of others, every day. I kept a daily journal. The change was not to be denied!

But our perception changes too.  Many of us have commiserated on how our systems can seem uninvolving or flat one day, but fantastic the next day.   The fact is our perception is very elastic and subject to all sorts of factors, from mood, state of mind, our expectations, what we are concentrating on at the time when listening, etc.  Your journal may well have simply detailed changes in your own mind, not the wire.  The problem is with these anecdotes, these variables are left tangled.

Hey, nobody’s ever bothered to measure cables before and after cryogenic treatment. Nobody’s bothered to measure tubes before and after cryo. Nobody’s bothered to measure CD players or amps before and after cryo. Nobody’s bothered to measure tonearms before and after cryo. Nobody’s measured CDs before and after cryo. And nobody’s bothered to measure trumpets and saxophones before and after cryo.

 Nobody's bothered to measure them because they don't want to waste their time because they know there will be no difference! 

 The best tweak in the world is a 5K run before you sit down and listen. Then maybe take it one step further and Add a cold beer. 

The best tweak in the world is a 5K run before you sit down and listen.

+1.  I can attest to that.

Unfortunately, though, as time goes by that tweak tends to become less practicable  :-(

Best regards,
-- Al

analogluvr
The best tweak in the world is a 5K run before you sit down and listen. Then maybe take it one step further and Add a cold beer.

>>>>>And if you keep chuggin’ em down before you know it your crap system starts to sound pretty freakin awesome.

geoffkait said:

"Besides, all I was asking for in the example you provided is EVIDENCE. That doesn’t seem too much to ask. 😬 I’m not demanding PROOF. "

Okay, change my question to you asking for "EVIDENCE". The result is the same. You ask for evidence but then claim that nothing anyone introduces rises to the level of "EVIDENCE". Same difference. Still specious. And you're pretty much just parsing words to wiggle out of the trap you set for yourself.

And he also said:

"You do know the difference, I assume."

I know the difference between rational civil conversation verses someone being patronizing and insulting to cover up for the inconsistencies of his posts. And, no, I will not find that "EVIDENCE " for you. It is in black and white all over this forum and stands in stark contrast to almost every other member and post I've read on this otherwise extremely cordial site.

Again...the company he left does not see it necessary to make any such claims. That an engineer who left Belden makes claims about burn-in doesn't mean it's true.

Why would the company make such a claim? Their product is used in an industry where they're used as patch cords and made to be inserted and pulled out over and over and hold up to abuse at the hands of those in post production. Just slap them in you'll know they'll work. Mass production, even at a technical level, is still mass production, no matter how one tends to glorify it. You need the equipment to hold up to use and abuse. It has to work at a basic level, again and again. No need to talk down to those who don't work at your level as it's not germane to the discussion: it's a red herring meant to distract. 

Now take that level of engineering needed to do that and go a step or two further in refinement and you'd have a better cable for home use where you'd set it and forget it. The manufacturer needn't worry about the rigors of industrial use and pass on some sage advice so as to let it (the cable) settle in and do it's thing. 

The same reasoning you'd have as to doubt someone who worked at that level of expertise would ask the same of you. Who's to say? Tell me truly, is there anyone you work with who feels differently about cables? Do you have discussions about what's good enough for home use? Do you have co-workers who do indeed, use what they feel to be better cables than what you work with? Odds are, there simply has to be and I'm curious to know what they say. Are you in the minority or is what you feel about cables an industry standard?

All the best,
Nonoise
 

"But most Electrical Engineers that I’ve seen discuss this over the years, who aren’t part of a company trying to sell boutique cables, tend to dismiss the idea. "

What I have learned over the years is that electrical engineers (no matter what experience) talk more  rubbish than anyone. I continually hear them say "technically there is no difference" or "there is no reason for that". NEVER take much notice of them. Recently one said "mains cables make no  difference - a waste of money - just get a normal cable and stick it directly into the mains". Another one said "single ended MUST be better than balanced as it keeps the purity of the signal". Good grief. We need a joke list  compiled of "sayings of engineers"!

n80 OP
geoffkait said:

"Besides, all I was asking for in the example you provided is EVIDENCE. That doesn’t seem too much to ask. 😬 I’m not demanding PROOF. "

Okay, change my question to you asking for "EVIDENCE". The result is the same. You ask for evidence but then claim that nothing anyone introduces rises to the level of "EVIDENCE". Same difference. Still specious. And you’re pretty much just parsing words to wiggle out of the trap you set for yourself.

>>>>>I’ve already given you my answer. As I suspected, you don’t know the difference between proof and evidence. Nor do you understand why I ask for evidence to support bold statements. Let me give you an example. When someone recently stated that there have been many blind tests of cables, I asked him to provide links to blind tests. Which someone did. That’s an example of asking for evidence of a bold statement. This conversation can serve no purpose any more.

Geoffkait said "And if you keep chuggin’ em down before you know it your crap system starts to sound pretty freakin awesome."

Now that you've told us your approach it really explains all your moronic posts

geoffkait said:

"When someone recently stated that there have been many blind tests of cables, I asked him to provide links to blind tests. Which someone did. That’s an example of asking for evidence of a bold statement. "

And then you dismissed blind tests. That's my point. Reading over this and a few other threads it typically goes like this:

1. Someone makes a statement you disagree with.
2. In your reply you ask for evidence. And usually throw in some pretentious and snarky dig at them....presumably because they had the nerve to believe something that you don't.
3. If they produce evidence, which many people won't because with you there is no point, you then dismiss the evidence out of hand whether it be subjective, measured or blind tested. And usually throw in another patronizing dig questioning their intelligence.
4. If someone has the nerve to point out this pattern you resort to direct ad hominem attacks and in this case, dismiss the rest of the thread as a veiled threat that you won't grace us with your presence any longer.

 If only we could be so fortunate! I'd like to say ignore him and he'll go away, but he won't… 

And yes, there is no point in debating with him, he just keeps moving the goalposts.

n80 OP
geoffkait said:

"When someone recently stated that there have been many blind tests of cables, I asked him to provide links to blind tests. Which someone did. That’s an example of asking for evidence of a bold statement. "

And then you dismissed blind tests. That’s my point. Reading over this and a few other threads it typically goes like this:

1. Someone makes a statement you disagree with.
2. In your reply you ask for evidence. And usually throw in some pretentious and snarky dig at them....presumably because they had the nerve to believe something that you don’t.
3. If they produce evidence, which many people won’t because with you there is no point, you then dismiss the evidence out of hand whether it be subjective, measured or blind tested. And usually throw in another patronizing dig questioning their intelligence.
4. If someone has the nerve to point out this pattern you resort to direct ad hominem attacks and in this case, dismiss the rest of the thread as a veiled threat that you won’t grace us with your presence any longer.

>>>>If you can’t stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Tip: If I were you I’d lose the attitude pronto. At least you’ve apparently learned the difference between evidence and proof. But we’ll see....

There needs to be an ignore option here like the Tapeheads site for people who make a forum post flow and read like you're walking through glue trying to carry a big Krell amp. Are you listening Audiogon??????

I have been a cable tester for about 15 years for a small manufacturer.  I've heard maybe 100 different cables, most never making it into production.  Before I test them, I burn them in for 24 hours, minimum.  I have found that a new pair of ICs versus a 24 hour used pair of ICs can sound very, very different.  

I've also tested Monster Cable 300s series years ago and found no appreciable difference after 100 hours burn in.  I found a slight difference using Belden low capacitance ICs.  Then again, I found that High Fidelity brand cables sound terrible on any system I've heard, generally, very expensive systems of $300,000 to $1 million.  I'd rather listen to Monster 300s than High Fidelity cables for musical enjoyment.

Since comparing newly manufactured audiophile cables to burned in cables is so obvious to me as well as to others, may I suggest that some or many professional based balanced cables do not have a significant burn in change in sound.  Note that so many great recordings were made using cheap professional cabling back in the 50s to 70s.  Could they have been better with more advanced design and metallurgy cabling?  I don't know.

When I purchased my SME IV arm in 1989, the dealer said listen for a while, then bring it back for modifications.  He shot closed cell insulation in the arm to remove the low mid/upper bass hump and installed Cardas phono cable with an RCA junction box.  It took about a month (100 hours) until I found great enjoyment using my new arm.  I am still using this arm in 2018.  

Honestly never bought into the cable burn-in thing. It's a piece of WIRE!! There's nothing to burn in................Try this, take two brand new identical cables. Keep one set aside and run the other set continuously in your system for a week, a month, however long you want, then have your wife or a buddy swap them back and forth, double blind, so that you have no idea which set is in the system or even if they swapped them around. I'd bet you good money that you can NOT reliably tell which is which or even if they've been swapped. You may guess right a few times, but I'd virtually guarantee that you can't honestly and repeatedly tell which one is in the system.......................Dude, it's WIRE.................45 years in electronics.........doesn't make me an expert, but I do understand a few things better than many hobbiests

Thank God we can't take this discussion or others like it to a "Game of Thrones" environment.  The carnage!!!!😮

I just recently bought quite a few brand new Audio Note cables interconnects and speaker cables.
I had borrowed the store demo cables prior to ordering and receiving my new cables. 
I replaced each demo cable with a new cable one at a time. Each new cable did not sound like the one I replaced. I asked the dealer about this. He said give each cable about 50 hours of music playing through them and they will start to bloom and sound like the demo pair.
Sure enough after 50 hours they started to bloom.
I experienced the same results with every other cable.

Spent 45 years working on top-shelf military electronics and have been an audiophile for just as long. I don't buy into the cables need to be burned in BS. It's a wire, it won't change tomorrow or next week or next year unless it breaks, shorts or opens. I honestly think that mega-cable vendors want you to hang in there until you essentially get used to their "wonder cable" and have time to talk yourself into believing that it just keeps getting better every day. ........All military grade gear gets "burned in".....usually at high temp, or alternating hot-cold cycles........to find out if it will fail under stress, that's it. The specs don't get better or worse with use..........if anything they get worse over time as components age............Wire doesn't "age", it's just wire.........If you don't believe me, pick up two identical sets of cable. Put one in your system and let it "burn in". Set the other aside during that time. Then have someone else swap back and forth between the burned in cable and the virgin set without you knowing which cable set has been installed or even if they changed anything at all. I'd bet good money that you will NOT be able to reliably and repeatedly tell which one is in the system..............You'll guess right some percentage of the time, law of averages, but you won't reliably be able to tell one from the other..............It's just wire my friend. If you don't like the way it sounds when you first hook it up, it won't sound better a month later, unless you talk yourself into believing it does.

Sorry for the double post, not intentional.

shadowcat2016  You sound just like an electronics engineer who looks at the numbers only and applies commercial products specifications to all audiophile gear.  Audiophile gear is not a by the numbers application.  Violins can be made exactly the same on an assembly line to mimic a Stradivarius, yet never sound as good as a Strad.  Why is that?  You are so certain that audiophiles are stupid or deaf that we believe what we hear is make believe. 

I'm a part-time classical musician and recording engineer.  My time with hearing differences in cables is critical to the sales of one manufacturer. I KNOW that his newly made cables sound different than a burned-in cable of at least 24 hours (after I get his new cables, I burn them in for five days, minimum).  They can sound better or worse after burning-in, but not the same.  He uses a very complex design and materials that are altered over time/stabilize including a mastic encased mesh copper shielding with tungsten, nickel and carbon powder.  

As I previously mentioned, not all cable requires or is effected by a burning-in process.  I have found that cheap and balanced cables are not as effected.  

fleschler,

Just curious:  What do you mean you are a "cable tester" for a small manufacturer?

Do you mean you are an electrical engineer and you are part of production, and take various measurements of the cables and find an objective measurable difference?  If so, can you pass on to us what measurable differences you've observed between the same cable new vs burned in?


Or do you mean a small manufacturer gives you cables to listen to and report on?

Well, one interesting thing fleschler said was that the burn-in makes things different, not necessarily better.

I have found it strange that this has not been pointed out before. There seems to be an impression that whatever happens to a cable as it "burns-in" somehow makes it better. Even if one accepts that something changes it seems a bit of a stretch to presume that that something is always going to make it change for the better. The packaging on the cables I bought, that caused me to start this thread (in complete and total ignorance) said the burn-in would yield optimal performance.

I also don’t think comparing a violin to a cable is maybe the best analogy. I’m sure there are variations in metallurgy and production in the same model of cable but it is hard to imagine that such variations would be anywhere near as significant as those found in wood, no two pieces of which will be the same.

I test cables without electronic testing equipment. I’m sure my high end system is junk to professionals although I’ve appraised 27 SoCal & San Fran recording studios in my former profession. I must say, the recording engineers had hearing deficiencies by the time they were 50 and result in non-flat sounding studio audio setups in many of them. Luckily, I’m friends with some remastering engineers with superb hearing, Kevin Gray, Steve Hoffman and Robert Pincus. I also do recording and remastering for a local orchestra, choirs, chamber orch., etc.

Back to my testing. I receive up to four versions of a cable, differing sometimes as little as having a 26 gauge versus a 30 gauge conductor or return wire or a copper, silver or rhodium connection difference. I won’t seriously compare them to the current, burned in version until I’ve cooked them as they generally (90% of the time) sound worse to start with. Sometimes, the newest version is better sounding than the current model due to significant changes in the design, such as when the new version reduced capacitance by 50% through additional teflon shielding over conductors and/or returns.

I don’t care that a machine will tell me that they all test the same other than for capacitance, inductance or resistance. The manufacturer tests for the basics. What we do is determine if sonically, we prefer the current version or the new version, usually its the current version. When multiple changes have occurred in the new version and it is significantly better, the manufacturer renames it. This has happened a half dozen times in the past 15+ years. A high percentage of the time, the cables do not meet up to the current version. The manufacturer is continually tinkering with his formulas, design and materials to produce the best cabling he can (although his speaker cables have only seen three or four versions in 20 years and A/C cables maybe three versions in 10 years).

We also test other upscale cables to his cables to see how they compare on at least two systems, mine and his. We’ve tried High Fidelity, Magnan, Kimber, Furutech, Nordost, Audioquest (not all of their cables but a selection over the years) as well as others he has tested on his own. He also take his cables to shows and upscale audio systems locally to compare to their current cabling. Never have compared them to Transparent Audio cabling which retails for 50X more for speaker cabling or Masterbuilt at 100X more. I heard them replace Siltech, Triode Wire and Shunyata as well as shows.

I don’t know what the manufacturer finds as far as the three electrical testable variables in his cables before and after he burns them in/tests them. I or the both of us compare the cables at my house and at his factory for a sonic evaluation. I don’t have any other relationship with the manufacturing of the cabling.

Works for me. 👍

fleschler,

Right, so you listen to cables. Ok.

I don’t care that a machine will tell me that they all test the same other than for capacitance, inductance or resistance. The manufacturer tests for the basics. What we do is determine if sonically, we prefer the current version or the new version, usually its the current version.

So what puzzle me here is:

If the cables need burn in, how are the manufacturers determining what is causing this phenomenon? As we aren’t talking about magic, presumably manufacturers identify some "pre-burned in" state they can measure, vs post burn in, where the measurements change. Otherwise...how do they know what’s going on at all?

That’s what I’m not seeing yet in this thread, including in your post.

What exactly do you think is technically happening to cables when you "cook" them, and have you, or the manufacturers you work with, any actual data showing these differences?

I don't care why it works technically.  Just like I don't care why SR duplexes, fuses and HFTs work, or Stillpoints or Omega E-Mats.  They work for my system and my friends systems.  My cable manufacturing friend doesn't use SR tweaks or stillpoints or E-Mats.  However, he heard the difference between SR blue fuses and his stock fuses and decided to eliminate the fuse with a breaker instead which resulted in a sound similar to the effect of an SR blue fuse.  His system and room are diametrically different acoustically (mine-live, high vaulted ceilings, windows and large room with flat walls with 4.5 way large high sensitivity speakers/his-damped room, low flat acoustic tile ceilings, small room with two way high resolution, low sensitivity speakers).  Two different rooms and systems to address the cabling effects for different systems.

I don't know what cooking cables does.  Same with components in equipment (like capacitors) and speaker cones and panels.  The latter two I've heard change over time, breaking in so to speak without regard to their technical changes.   

What I think is happening is an electrical circuit or field is changed while the cable or capacitor is charged.  Speaker cones and panels vibrate and become less stiff.  One's electrical and the other is mechanical.  It's just the way it is.  I buy into the burning in concept because I can hear it.  

I’m not quite sure I see why the military would have any use for cables that outperform. Unless maybe the General was an audiophile. Obviously there are technical standards for BER, voice recognition, signal to noise ratio, that sort of thing.

Prof,
Of course, perception is a major component of our extremely subjective hobby. If we all heard the same thing, we would all have the same system. Yes, subtle changes could be attributed to daily nuances in our lives but dramatic changes can not be ignored! Believe what you want, but don't be so pompous as to tell me what I can or can't hear. This is about enjoying the music and sharing our experiences with others. It's not a contest. Happy listening.
.

" Believe what you want, but don't be so pompous as to tell me what I can or can't hear."

That cuts both ways, right? How is it that person  'A' can say "I hear a dramatic difference" and another person 'B' with equally good hearing and skills  say  "I don't hear a difference" and that makes person 'B' pompous but not person 'A'?

I'm wasn't implying that different cable may or may not sound better or different in a hi-rez system, although in a pure sense, properly designed and built for the application, they should do nothing at all to the sound except get it from A to B. If you can reliably and repeatedly hear a difference, better or worse, go with what sounds better to you in your system.

 As both an audiophile and a career tech I am sometimes at odds with myself over WHY this or that sounds better, worse or simply different, when technically I can't explain why there should be any difference.  Electrically and mechanically gear does "settle in" after use, that I buy, speaker cones, amps, what have you, but WIRE?? Maybe it does and I just can't hear it. I've never had the funds to buy multiple expensive cable sets  and play with them. 

As for high end MIL gear, if different wires made it "better", trust me, Uncle would be only too happy to buy it with your tax dollars. Much of the gear I worked on in my career costs more than my house and cars together. Purely from a technical standpoint, wire is wire as long as it's applicable to the intended use................Does one "sound" different than another, yes I've heard that myself. I simply can't fathom why a hundred hours of usage should change the way it behaves or sounds..........call me ignorant, I've been called worse :)
 
Our hobby is to a very large extent, subjective, and there in lies the source of many of these debates. In the end, buy what you like and can afford. If it sounds good or better to you, enjoy the music. Wasn't trying to "P" on anybodies corn flakes here, just expressing my personal opinions and professional experience.

If you REALLY want to improve the sound of your system for a fraction of its cost, address your room acoustics. Little room for debate on that one and the audible difference is obvious and significant.

jea48  Thanks, that's exactly what I said.  Monster cable=no burn in noticed.
butch01  Right, it's not a contest.  It's a pleasure to hear music well reproduced.
Room acoustics are 50% of the sound.  I used to use multiple sound panels, room tunes, bass traps.  I have replaced them with Synergistic Research HFTs (32 of them).  They are great for slap echo in a too reverberant room.  

Jim, thank you. I think it is ironic that I started this thread in my ignorance, both of the existence of this phenomenon and the debate surrounding it.

The irony is that for me it makes no difference whatsoever:

1) I already have great cables (from what I've been told and the resale value I see on them.
2) They are all burned in for what that's worth.
3) The cables I bought are to connect a weak link in my system which no cable, burned in or not is, going to improve and which I don't care to do anything about.
4) I'm going to use this set of cables now....and later. If they improve things great, if not great.
5) My system sounds super incredible awesome to me. I feel no room or need for improvement.

So for me, at this moment, the issue is moot and is mostly just a curiosity to me in regard to the passions it engenders.

@n80. You speak about your cables of a recently-acquired, 15-y/o system being “burned in.”  Was the system actively used prior to your acquiring it or was it stored for awhile?

Warning: I'm a cable designer and manufacturer.
Cables and a system has to be resolved enough to hear the break in period. Cables like Monster are so grainy and blurred that there is no difference and just because a system is detailed doesn't mean it is resolved. Detailed just emphasizes the leading edge of notes.

Of course other things make bigger differences but just like speakers sound better when they are warmed up, cables change usually between the 20 and 200 hour mark depending on voltage and the materials used in the cable. Ours take 225 hours because of the Nano tubes.
BTW I think music is better than one of those break in machines that causes a signature on the wire.

Whoa! Back up! Beep! Beep! Did somebody say nano tubes? Is that like a really small bicycle inner tube?

Detailed just emphasizes the leading edge of notes.

And just, pray tell, how does a wire emphasize the leading edge of notes? That makes as much sense as saying that some ethernet cables italicize while others CAPITALIZE

The electrical signal is a continuously changing value which when transduced to moving air, our brain decodes into 'music'

Cables are equalizers and just as they may emphasize upper frequencies and sound 'detailed' they may just as readily roll the top and sound 'warmer'.

What any cable does when is utterly system dependent. See http://192.168.1.160/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php/ 

In over half a century of listening, EVERYTHING ascribed to cable burn in has been found to be connector related. See http://ielogical.com/Audio/#ConnectorCleansing

@ieales   Nice anecdotal evidence.  Not an establishment of fact, however.    🤔

n80's previous post:
" Believe what you want, but don't be so pompous as to tell me what I can or can't hear."

"That cuts both ways, right? How is it that person 'A' can say "I hear a dramatic difference" and another person 'B' with equally good hearing and skills say "I don't hear a difference" and that makes person 'B' pompous but not person 'A'?"

A couple things here: 
1. It's a pretty big leap to state person A & person B have "equally good hearing skills. 
2. prof IS pompous.   

My advice is not to worry about cable burn in. It will happen regardless, so why fret over it? And if you fret over it, then go out and buy a cable burner if you believe that will allay your concerns. But then you will fret over which cable burner to buy and whether it needs a burn in period. 

The accusation that "burn - in" is more psychological than real only works for the average buyer since he mostly likely purchase a pair of cables and has rely on his memories to tell the difference when he bought it brand new and now.

But this accusation does not work for cable manufacturers because they have a bunch of them lying around - some brand new, some has been used for awhile.  So there is no need to recall any "memories" since they can compare side by side brand new cables and old cables.  So if they can hear the difference then there is such thing as "psychological".
Cable manufacturers has nothing to gain by this.  If you bought a cables and it sucks, you call the manufacturer, they tell you to wait until so and so hours.  If after that it still sucks, then they got nothing to gain, because it's still suck.