I think the upgrade game is more something Linn does. Their upgrades are numerous to the point that the guy who sold me my Rega told me a guy spent $25K on an LP12.
Question for Chakster (Mike Lavigne - feel free to chime in although you seem to be focused on the highest end options, or any other cartridge experts): I've heard of a couple of the brands you mentioned above in your vast cartridge inventory, and seem to be a cartridge analyst for Absolute Sound, but I was wondering, of the cartridges currently commercially available and in production, what cartridge would you recommend for a Rega P8 (other than Rega's 2 MC's) from a value standpoint? I like a detailed sound that is transparent and tight without anything being added, which gets all that is on the record to come out. Not bassy or shrill or tinny sounding, just natural. I currently have a Van den hul One Special with probably 2250-2500 hours on it that I am pleased with (it's rated 25-3500) more lately with the virus, and in a year or less, I will either service it at the factory in Sweden (and limp along for a month or so while it being brought to new specs) for around $5-$600 or look for a replacement. I've heard good things about Hana, and of course there are the usual suspects of Koetsu, Lyra, Clear Audio, Ortofon, Dynavector, etc. I have a Sutherland Insight phono stage with the Linear Power Supply that has 4-5 adjustable load settings from 100 to 47K ohms.Thanks for your advice. |
I'm not certain why someone would conclude that I am "tweaking" my Rega Planar 10 by taking off the feet and using Rollerblock Jr + in their place. Using Rollerblock Jr + (or some other brand isolation/vibration control device) is rather common in high-end systems. I could easily have left the OEM santoprene feet in place and used the Rollerblock Jr + devices elsewhere under the plinth, achieving the same effect. However, the Planar 10 has a very unique plinth and using the Rollerblock Jr + in place of the santoprene feet was a near perfect fit and also looked very nice. As well, adding a Symposium, Segue ISO is another benefit for isolation and vibration control. All hi-fi components, from source units to phono stage, to preamp, to power amp, and even with AC conditioners, will benefit by using such products to support them. There is good reason those kind of products are on the market. This is part of hi-fi. I am not modifying my Rega at all. |
@aj523
To answer your question, no, I am not going to change the AC power cable from the PSU. I have it connected to an Audioquest Niagara 1200 and, therefore, am delivering a nice clean AC current to the PSU.
In a few months from now I am getting a Symposium Acoustics Foundation Ultra rack. Along with that I am upgrading to the new Niagara 3000 and all of my main components AC will connect to that, including the Rega. I am maintaining my Niagara 1200 for AC connections just for the theater processor and multi-channel amp, in a separate cabinet. I have a fairly serious main 2-channel audio system and for home theater I then simply switch on the processor and multi-channel amp. My main preamp (BAT preamp and power amp) can receive the R/L signal from the processor and pass it through to the BAT amp. Voila, I then have a home theater setup operating in full Dolby Atmos, 9.1. It's really quite nice! |
aj523, "@cd318 and the @chakster Sorry no idea what you are talking about. Because I asked about upgrading a stock cable that means I’m trying to change everything on this incredible machine? " Err... you also mentioned a replacement mat, did you not? "Rega isn’t going to put a $300 power cord on their table, they use a basic power cable that they didn’t design and its the law of diminishing returns....but that doesn’t mean its necessarily a complete waste." Before presuming, maybe it’s better if you can tell us what Rega have to say. That might be useful information for other owners of Rega decks. "I was just asking anyway. Jesus. So glad i didn’t go with a Technic or other DD design. They are ugly too." Thank you for your opinion. Many may not agree. big_greg, The Funk Firm are also another interesting company that seems to fly under the radar nowadays, and why do we so rarely hear about Origin Live? It wasn’t that long ago that their turntable arms were hailed as the very best in the business. Could it all be simply be down to reviewers fashion and flavour of the month based upon advertising revenues? |
@cd318
Seriously, c’mon dude....I'm just getting into TT’s and 2 channel stereo (yes, a newbie) and I make the mistake of reading all over the internet by so called experts (none of whom I suspect are engineers) about replacement mats and other tweaks using these crazy adjectives, it gets me thinking..... But I’m smart enough to call Rega after dropping $6k and they set me straight and told me it will actually degrade the sound.. Meanwhile all I hear about with other TTs like Technic (which they used to sell at Toys R Us when I was a kid) is how people tweak the hell out of them and I wonder if those tweaks really work then why doesnt the manufacturer build them in?
And yes absolutely I will call Rega about the power cord. I meant to do so today but I thought it was Saturday as I have off for the holiday. lol
Fun stuff. But why is everyone so preachy?
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aj523,
"Fun stuff. But why is everyone so preachy?"
Yes, it should definitely be fun, before anything else, including any expensive, possibly useless or counterproductive tweaks.
Remember the OP was faced with a budget of $2k and somehow, despite that we got carried away.
The OP didn’t and it will be interesting to hear how he gets on with his new deck.
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@aj523
Meanwhile all I hear about with other TTs like Technic (which they used to sell at Toys R Us when I was a kid) is how people tweak the hell out of them and I wonder if those tweaks really work then why doesnt the manufacturer build them in?
This is the best explanation that you have no idea what you're talking about, because a brand new Technics with Coreless DD motor is not what was in the shops near your kinder garden back in the day. As always you (just like some other people) mixed up together and OLD and NEW, expecting OLD and NEW is the same if there is a Technics logo on it. Regarding an old Technics that is still the best even today i can only recall two models SP-10mkII with EPA-100 tonearm, and SP-10mk3 with EPA-100 mk2 tonearm, nothing else. Fully adjustable (with dynamic damping) Technics EPA-100 and EPA-100 mk2 are two amazing tonearms from the past that can beat almost everything today! The whole Technics tooling was completely rebuild after they went out of business for a long time, they made a return only few years ago with a brand new line of High-End turntables. One of the reason is 100 Anniversary date. Technics brought SP-10R on the market and this is a killer reference class high-end turntable. Do you understand the difference between belt-drive Technics and direct-drive Technics? Technics also made belt-drive turntables in the past, but after a years of research they only keep making Direct Drive. Have you ever seen how many different models Technics made in the past? Now forget all that and read about SP-10R and it's budget version with the same motor SL1200G (and cheaper model is SL1200GR). Rega is just a tiny company compared to the Matsushita (Technics/Panasonic/National) giant of the industry. The reason why Technics turntable does not cost too much money is because they're making millions of them. These turntables does not require any tweaks at all to remain reference class Direct Drive turntables today. |
@chakster Sorry no idea what you are talking about. Because I asked about upgrading a stock cable that means I’m trying to change everything on this incredible machine?
Guess what? You can’t tweak the hell out of a Rega and that’s what makes it so special unlike other DD and other designs. Its not meant to be upgraded so not sure what threads you are talking about where people are trying to upgrade everything.
Rega isn’t going to put a $300 power cord on their table, they use a basic power cable that they didn’t design and its the law of diminishing returns....but that doesn’t mean its necessarily a complete waste. I was just asking anyway. Jesus. So glad i didn’t go with a Technic or other DD design. They are ugly too. @aj523 I don’t care about power cord for any turntable (always using stock power cable), there is no sound related to the turntable power cord at all, power cord just transfer required voltage to the TT power supply to rotate the platter. Since all my turntables are Direct Drive with stable rotation I don’t believe in this snake oil power cords, fuses and all that expensive modern BS for turntables to suck money from audiof**ls. I have never ever upgraded anything in my Direct Drive turntables, even if they are 30 y.o. i use them as it is, but i do care what i’m buying when it comes to vintage turntables (or anything) - it must be like new and perfectly working. I did not change anything is my Technics SP-10 mkII drive, it was mint condition and after many years of using i sold it as it is (still mint-) to a friend and it’s still properly working without re-capping or anything. Only lubrication of the motor as required by the manufacturer. I did nothing to my pair of reference DD i am using now (Luxman PD-444) in my system. I made (metal) custom racks for each of them. I did not change feet or whatever like electronics, i have never replaced power cord or anything like that. I do change mats and tonearms because this turntable designed for those who use many tonearms. A reference class turntable (in my opinion) must be reference as it is, no tweaks needed at all. @chakster Haven’t I read you post about upgrading feet on the Technics turntables? @big_greg I’ve mentioned Audio-Technica High-End pneumatic insulator designed for all king of components. The weak part of an old Technics Obsidian Plinth (made in the 70’s) can be solved with AT-616 pneumatic insulator. Same about any other very old plinth from the 20th century. I also replaced stock feet on my old pair of Technics from the 90’s when isonoe released direct replacement feet. BUT it is not necessary for a brand new Technics turntables made in 21st century, the stock feet already nice on SL1200GR or G models. And i think any manufacturer today must think about new standards and they have to supply a turntable with very nice stock feet. I would rather design a dedicated (nice and heavy) rack for each turntable. I made a few already. Reading Simone Yorke Blog i can see this dude sells his belt-drive turntables with very nice racks, this is the right concept!
I think the upgrade game is more something Linn does. Their upgrades are numerous to the point that the guy who sold me my Rega told me a guy spent $25K on an LP12.
@sokogear And Linn, yes :)) Chakster: I’ve heard of a couple of the brands you mentioned above in your vast cartridge inventory, and seem to be a cartridge analyst for Absolute Sound, but I was wondering, of the cartridges currently commercially available and in production, what cartridge would you recommend for a Rega P8 (other than Rega’s 2 MC’s) from a value standpoint? @sokogear One modern LOMC cartridge i bought myself after a long time of searching for it (not willing pay retail price) was Miyajima Kansui, but your tonearm probably is not heavy enough for it. I’ve heard good things about Hana, and of course there are the usual suspects of Koetsu, Lyra, Clear Audio, Ortofon, Dynavector, etc. I have a Sutherland Insight phono stage with the Linear Power Supply that has 4-5 adjustable load settings from 100 to 47K ohms.Thanks for your advice. @sokogear For Koetsu you need super heavy tonearm (just like for Miyajima Kansui). So your Rega tonearm is not good for Low Compliance cartridges. I really enjoyed Dynavector cartridges, in KARAT series the latest i have is 17DS2 mkII. Looking at Dynavector website now i can see the latest is KARAT 17DX. Lyra, Clear Audio (just like Dynavector Te-Kaitora model) are all have this long unprotected cantilever and in my opinion this is extremely dangerous (very easy to break) design, i would never buy anything like that for practical reason (the price is very high). Personally i would never spend over $2k for any modern High-End cartridge, because there are so many stunning performers even under $1k if you will look for vintage MM/MI or even MC. You should really try some decent MM/MI to break this stereotype forever. In fact an MM/MI can be as good as MC or even better. |
Thanks Chakster. Sounds like I should probably just send my Van den hul One Special back to the factory for the $5-600 overhaul. They do whatever needs to be done to bring it back to new.
It’s interesting that you mention cantilever length-that is something VDH talks about extensively in those links I sent out from their Web site. Theirs is extremely short to minimize travel in the rubber base of the cantilever that wears. It makes life between service intervals to 2500-3500 hours instead of normal 1500-2000. They also have a special stylus shaped so it actually goes deeper (like a sharp pencil tip versus a rounder elliptical one) into the groove and produces less residue (called VDH stylus) which also extends the length of service intervals. Koetsu I believe has no rubber base at all (it might be Lyra).
Although it retails for $1850, I was able to get the One Special from a highly respected local dealer who had taken it in as a trade for a higher level VDH cartridge after his customer only used it for a very short time.for $700, the amount VDH gave him for trade in credit to the new $3500 Frog (I beleive).
It is a high output MC with .65 output with 200 ohm recommended impedance and I’ve been very happy with it, and it sounds even better with the Sutherland Insight I mentioned above I recently bought privately.
Please keep up the banter with AJ-it is hilarious.
BTW, I didn’t think Panasonic (Technics) ever went out of business, just stopped making tables for a while. Interesting....
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@chakster I'm not into power cord upgrades but I'll call Rega anyway tomorrow. Their stand alone PSU is pretty impressive but I'm sure they will tell me not to waste my money. Our first agreement and its on wasteful tweaks !
Btw, if you have a 30 year old Technics, you might indeed have the Toys rUs version ( that was for Sogogear) !
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if you have a 30 year old Technics, you might indeed have the Toys rUs version ( that was for Sogogear) ! @aj523 Definitely RUS version because I’m in Russia :) My SL1210mkII was $350 in 1995 in local Technics/Panasonic shop, and i was 19 (good times). It’s interesting that you mention cantilever length-that is something VDH talks about extensively in those links I sent out from their Web site. Theirs is extremely short to minimize travel in the rubber base of the cantilever that wears. It makes life between service intervals to 2500-3500 hours instead of normal 1500-2000. They also have a special stylus shaped so it actually goes deeper (like a sharp pencil tip versus a rounder elliptical one) into the groove and produces less residue (called VDH stylus) which also extends the length of service intervals. @sokogear The shortest cantilever i ever tried was IKEDA9c III cantilever-less design :) No cantilever at all, maybe you will like it. Another one is Dynavector KARAT with very short (1.7 mm) Diamond cantilever, here is the interview with its inventor Dr. Tominari (Dynavector Systems). My old Dynavector thread is here. VdH stylus, Fritz Gyger stylus, and Ortofon Replicant stylus... are nearly the same, the difference is who’s got the patent and unique name for it. Garrott problers displayed them well here. Stanton/Pickering invented Stereohedron right after Quadrahedron. But Shibata-San at JVC/Victor who invented and patended Shibata stylus was first. New Miyajima Kansui has Shibata stylus because Miyajima-San love it. BTW, I didn’t think Panasonic (Technics) ever went out of business, just stopped making tables for a while. Interesting.... @sokogear In this thread definitely meant Technics turntables they stopped making for many years, but at that time Panasonic printers and Panasonic electric shavers were available and i bought them (and happy about quality, no upgrades since that time). |
Soko, if your phono stage has more than 60 dB gain, consider an AT ART7. Its recently been discontinued but you may be able to pick one up brand new by perusing the internet. I am more or less in the same camp with Chak when it comes to cartridges, although not as dogmatic, but I think the ART7 among modern cartridges is a real exception in terms of both performance and value for money. It’s really terrific. And when it’s been off the market for a long enough period of time, I think even Chakster will recognize its excellence.
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Max gain the Insight offers is 60 dB. Looks like the ART7 would be more than the VDH maintenance cost any way. Probably will just keep it. Just have to figure out when to do the service....Will be 9 years in November-about 5 hours per week, but last 4 months has probably been 15-20. So total of about 25-2600 on it.
Does anyone have a way to figure out when to do the service? The range is so big (2500-3500 hours) It’s hard to know for sure. I’m within the range now. I know that my records are in fantastic condition -almost no warped albums which cause faster cartridge wear. |
You have to ship it to Van den Hul direct, but make sure to check if he can personally work on your cartridge. If he can personally work on it then this is the best service. You can always ask via VdH distributors. |
I don't think you can ship your cartridge directly to Van Den Hul. I think you have to go through their distributor. It's now VPI for the US. I had my MC two special done a year or two ago. It was done by A.J. Van Den Hul himself. It was completely rebuilt for $500. Totally worth it. |
Thanks. I live within an hour of VPI, so I would drive up there and let them handle it (and hope they don’t sabotage my Rega when removing or reinstalling the cartridge 🙂). Hopefully they can insure AJ dies it himself or maybe swap a remanufactured one for mine for the same cost.
Any idea how to know when it’s time? |
The diamond fell off mine. That’s how I knew it was time. |
So it either breaks or not.....just like a Rolex needs service when it stops working?
The sound quality doesn’t gradually get worse?
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Yes, there should be signs - distortion, sibilance... you can have it inspected under a microscope for signs of wear. |
Thanks and for the $25 word I just learned. Good to know it will be obvious. |
It may be subtle, but if starts sounding different, have it looked at.
I was typing on my phone, so my answers were kind of short. The long version of the story about the diamond falling off was that I bought the MC-Two Special second hand. When I mounted it and set it up, it sounded horrible. That's when I took a close look and saw there was no diamond on the cantilever. I notified the seller and they refunded my money and said they didn't want the cartridge returned. That's when I decided to look into having it rebuilt. At the time the person representing Van Den Hul was someone on Florida. I contacted him and found out the rebuild was the same cost as what I paid for the cart., so I figured why not. It took a bit (ok, a lot) longer than I was told it would, but was worth it at the end of the day. I think you'll have a better and more professional experience with VPI than I did. I wonder if A.J. is still doing the rebuilds. I believe he's in his 80's. |
Let’s not keep hyping the great vintage tables and cartridges so much. It just pushes the prices higher for us. Best to just not argue with people so much and let them buy their cheap belt drives and let them find their path to better sound on their own. |
No one is talking about cheap belt drives. That is Chak's argument. He thinks the Technics new DD table is a better value than the more expensive belt drive tables. Cheap belt drives without external power supply units have a harder time keeping the speed constant.
BTW- I just saw VPI coming out with a 40th anniversary direct drive table, so once again we see that the technology doesn't matter, it's the design and build of the specific product. I do disagree with Chak that the exception to that rule is that MC carts are GENERALLY better than MMs. That technology seems to be better from all that I've read and heard, especially if you have a good phono stage. |
The right way to compare MC and MM is to buy a turntable with two tonearms and an MM/MC phono stage. If both cartridges carefully selected and matched to the arms then it will be impossible to say which one is better (MM or MC). But most likely MC will cost twice as much that MM. And being cheaper MM has user replaceable stylus (even with exotic cantilever and stylus tip). The situation with MC depends on who will fix the stylus/cantilever when your diamond is worn, after first refurbishing (if it’s not done by manufacturer or original cartridge designer) it can be serious degradation of sound especially for an exotic cartridges when someone will put something else instead of original designers choice. So first retip/refurbishing can ruin the sound of very nice LOMC. It will never happen with MM if the user can change the stylus with the next backup (original) sample. @sokogear did you read this ? |
@sokogear
The post said $2000 on a belt drive. I use a garrard 301, a couple direct drives and a belt drive. A Kuzma Reference. It’s a decent belt drive. I’m not against belt drives. I just think that for $2k there are better choices than a new belt drive in this price catagory.
The mm vs mc debate. I’m quite new to vintage mm. I have four arms mounted at once and have spent time comparing. I’m not going to say that one is better than the other, but I’m blown away by dollar for dollar vintage mm is the clear winner. Yesterday I listened to my $2k dynavector xx2 and an NOS Stanton 881s. I paid $300 for the Stanton. This isn’t the totl Stanton either. It sounded awesome! |
Yes, and it is I guess a matter of taste. When I went from a good MM cartridge that is no longer made (you might like it because of that) the Acutex 412 STR, to the VDH One Special, I remember thinking the VDH was much more alive, vivid, and detailed. But the Acutex back then was inexpensive - I think $2-300. I still have it, plus an extra brand new stylus the guy gave me since he stopped selling them.
When people are in the studio, they produce records trying to make a certain sound - not what is played in the studio, but mixed to achieve a certain sound. I guess those guys are the ones you should ask if the sound on a stereo from a particular cartridge is closer to the mark. Not the techies, but the artists themselves, especially if they produce their own albums.
You'd probably get lots off opinions there too.
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When people are in the studio, they produce records trying to make a certain sound - not what is played in the studio, but mixed to achieve a certain sound. Right, but Doug Sax is famous for DIRECT CUT (Direct-To-Disk) recording techniques. This is when a signal from the mics going to the mixing console and to the cutter stylus (no reel to reel in between). Audiophiles raving about his Sheffield LAB direct cut albums. His monitoring cartridge was Stanton 881s (not even the best Stanton model, but close to the best models). In that TAS article many engineers claimed than MC has a lot of coloration and not true to the sound. This is an opinion, but an opinion from a very well educated sound engineers and mastering engineers with very good ears. @sokogear It must be a very good MC to be neutral. You should really try some killer MM cartridges, your Acutex can't speak for all MM or MI. |
If I did that, I wouldn't need a phono stage, correct, or would it still help?
Acutex is not a top level MM - it is a good mid level one. What is MI? Sorry I'm not a cartridge analyst like you....
BTW, I listen to jazz and rock and (I guess you would call it} pop (Beatles, Paul Simon, Elton John, James Taylor, Linda Ronstadt), so it has to be versatile. |
MI is Moving Iron (like all the Grado and Sound Smith) IM is Induced Magnet (like ADC for example) MF is Moving Flux (like Glanz and Astatic) they are all belong to the group of MM/MI Watch SoundSmith lecture, he will explain the most :)) @sokogear |
Very relevant thread. So many T.T. choices out there...I’m thinking of selling my Basis Audio 2001/modified Rega RB900 with VTA adjust and upgrading to the Vertere Magic Groove MG-1 with the SG-1 tonearm. Everything I’ve read about the Vertere combo(and Touraj) is stellar. But I could not find many individuals who bought them both and reviewed them. It doesn’t seem like anyone would be less than thrilled but I am curious. The Vertere set up seems like a very big bang for the buck.
Any folks here have that set up or are familiar or heard reviews?
Thanks!
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@chakster
Relating to the Doug Sax article. I recently got into vintage reel to reel. A 4 track revox B77. A record dealer friend found me 25 7.5 ips tapes. Mostly jazz from the 50’s and early 60’s. I listened almost exclusively to these tapes for a couple weeks. Going back to my mc cartridges there was a distinctly different presentation. But switching to mm (881s) it was much closer. Most noticeable was guitar and piano. MM and even better, tape, gives a fuller, more weighted sound similar to when I hear my guitar and piano in the house. My mc cartridges are all of the more full bodied sound too. But I have to say piano from some of these tapes was the closest to the piano downstairs that I’ve ever heard in my room. But not in the audiophile sense. The tapes don’t have the frequency extension, soundstage, and air. But wait. Neither does my piano. Or my original 1962 Stratocaster through my assorted Fender amps. |
sdrsdrsdr,
"But I have to say piano from some of these tapes was the closest to the piano downstairs that I’ve ever heard in my room. But not in the audiophile sense. The tapes don’t have the frequency extension, soundstage, and air. But wait. Neither does my piano."
It's always more interesting to hear about direct comparisons rather than what we audiophiles think or expect that we should be hearing.
I'm not too surprised that tape came out ahead in your experience here despite expectations of 'frequency extension, soundstage, and air.' This kind of unexpected result, which has happened to me on a few occasions, can take a while to fully sink in.
Regarding MM v MC cartridges, I favour the former as they have a higher output and are less fussy regarding arms and might even track better. Sound archivists and broadcasters also tend to stick with Moving Magnets.
It's also worth bearing in mind that the cartridge is in effect little more than a slave electrical generator under total control of a much larger and important one - the turntable drive motor itself.
Anything the motor (turntable/arm) does incorrectly will be inevitably magnified by the cartridge output, even moreso for MC cartridges which unfortunately have a lower output etc.
Just where the bottleneck with today's vinyl playback systems is will depend upon which turntable, which arm, and which cartridge. Case by case.
Cost can be a very poor indicator of performance for all three components. Nothing new here.
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Arm and cartridge and then phono stage seem to have a bigger impact than the table, assuming the table can spin the platter at the correct speed with minimal rumble/noise from the motor, whatever that motor may be. Also, the table has to accommodate the arm base’s placement of course. Maybe these are big assumptions.
Matching the cartridge to both the arm and the phono stage is critical. The sum of these is not the result of how good each one of these parts are individually.
Porsche analogy is very appropriate-sticking a Porsche engine with a Ferrari transmission into an Aston Martin design may not be as good as a car built with those major components as part of its basic clean sheet of paper design. It could, but it’s probably not.
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@sokogear
Thats why I left it up to the engineering experts at Rega where all these design considerations are optimized. Rather then expensive experiments where everyone has a different opinion on what’s the best combination of table, arm, cartridge and even phono stage.
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You can't go wrong with your choice AJ. The deal you got was fantastic, and you got to hear the differences as you compared each level of Rega's offerings and assess their value to you. Like you saw though, all Rega would have been a mistake if you bought their phono stage. Some of us like Chakster are trying to save some cash and get as good a sound and value as possible.
I've never regretted spending money on stereo equipment except in my college days when I sold stereo equipment and was constantly swapping my own system. Fuses blew, turntables couldn't track and it was a merry go round of upgraditis. Now when I buy anything I make sure it's equal to or most likely better than the rest of my system and fits well.
15-20 years ago I had a Music Hall MMF 5 and I was going to put a Rega arm on it (RB700). When I looked at it, it was almost the same price as trading in the whole table ($7 or $800 versus $1150) for a P5, so I did it. That's how you get sucked down the rabbit hole. The P5 ended up holding it's value a hell of a lot better than what would have been a bastardized MMF 5.
Fast forward 30+ years from college and my speakers I recently traded were 25 years old. My amp is 15 with no plans of ever changing it unless there is major failure, which I don't expect as it is built like a tank. Current similar performing models are now 4 times what I paid. My cartridge is going on 9 and it looks like I will service it instead of replacing it. It is the best of both worlds; a high output moving coil with output of .65mV.
If I had cash burning a hole in my pocket, my local stereo salesmen would be glad to help me empty it to get something that sounds better. There is ALWAYS something better (or coming out) as even Mike Lavigne knows.
The system that supposedly won best at any cost at a stereo dealers show (I guess given a set room size and one table/arm/cart/phono stage/preamp/amp/with 2 speakers and cables-conditioner) was $400K. I am not sure if digital/streaming were part of it or not - I don't think so. There were others >$1M it beat. The cart/phono stage were both Van den hul top of the line, and there are far more expensive options out there for those things.
So, until you have $400K invested you are on the never ending journey. Enjoy the ride - there is no destination. |
sokogear,
"15-20 years ago I had a Music Hall MMF 5 and I was going to put a Rega arm on it (RB700). When I looked at it, it was almost the same price as trading in the whole table ($7 or $800 versus $1150) for a P5, so I did it. That's how you get sucked down the rabbit hole. The P5 ended up holding it's value a hell of a lot better than what would have been a bastardized MMF 5."
Good advice, if you ever plan to sell later. Original spec plus boxes etc will get you more.
"If I had cash burning a hole in my pocket, my local stereo salesmen would be glad to help me empty it to get something that sounds better. There is ALWAYS something better (or coming out) as even Mike Lavigne knows."
I'm sure they would.
As the OP wisely decided, it's generally best to stick to do your research, stick to your budget and accept whatever compromise that may bring.
Getting an all in package like a Marantz TT-15S1, or a Rega or any of the Technics decks seems a wise move too. |
Some of us like Chakster are trying to save some cash and get as good a sound and value as possible.
@sokogear because i'm buy many of them to compare them in my system when it comes to cartridges the most, also when it comes to turntables. I have tried over 70 great cartridges in the last 7 years i believe (doing that vintage carts research for myself) and it was not an entry level cartridges, it was very hard to find top models from the past (mostly MM, but many LOMC too). I bought too many turntables somehow, way too many for my listening room. Also many phono stages, suts, headamps ... This is madness, but i want to make it rational. It is not about saving as you can see, but when it comes to the price for some new equipment it is simply insane (a cartridge for $5k for example or even higher, a phono stage for $10k, a turntable for $20k ... etc). There are many vintage components in perfect condition that can blown away almost any new even if the price for new one is 10 times higher. And i've seen/heard some very expensive systems that sounds like sh.... This is why the price tag is not the key to a perfect sound. |
chakster, "This is why the price tag is not the key to a perfect sound." I don't think it ever has been anything more than an extremely lazy way of thinking. No amount of industry encouragement to spend can ever change that. Hi-fi shows are notorious for demonstrating that. The data from blind listening tests suggests the same. Even in the case of turntables where good engineering does not tend to come cheap, cost is not always a good indicator of performance. Michael Fremer (Analog Planet) put up his Continuum Labs Caliburn ("that costs as much as a house" $200k+) against the then new Technics 1200G ($4k). These videos can still be found on his Analog Planet YouTube channel. Technics SL1200 v Continuum Caliburn https://youtu.be/qY9YYkqW8ngAfter the results proved inconclusive Fremer decided to offer the same comparison featuring a vocal track this time. Vocal track comparison https://youtu.be/QKfs5lYZuQkThere was even a later follow up video posted by another YouTuber who attempted to analyse and compare the data between these two turntables. Analysis Caliburn v 1200G https://youtu.be/ZEGj6iim57wBear in mind also that the Continuum Labs Caliburn was long held to be one of, if not the very best turntable in existence. |
@cd318 I watched those videos long time ago, who will buy a $200k turntable? I have no idea who told you this is the best turntable ever made ? Try this or this version. When the difference in sound is very small but the difference in price is very big would you go for the most expensive one? Do you own this turntable or youtube is your reference to compare cartridges and turntables listening to the mp3 file? Only very reach people can buy the most expensive, but the vinyl is not for reach, it’s for everyone. In my country we have people who will buy ONLY the most expensive audio gear and those people know nothing about the sound, there is a business model for such people and we have a lot of companies in High-End world serving those people needs (only the most expensive gear). Desire to have a perfect sound in your house/room has nothing to do with desire to own the most expensive high-end gear. I appreciate the ability to build a decent audio system using reasonably priced components only (but they are still expensive). We must have knowledge and experience to do so, it is an interesting process. |
The ones who just buy the most expensive without doing any research of course cannot appreciate what they own.
I am sure in certain situations the most expensive is the best, but you still need to confirm that.
Chakster - "It is not about saving as you can see, but when it comes to the price for some new equipment it is simply insane (a cartridge for $5k for example or even higher, a phono stage for $10k, a turntable for $20k ... etc)."
As I said it is not about savings, but value. Just being a little nit picky on verbiage, but I think we are saying essentially the same thing.
You must be an active seller on Audiogon with all those cartridges and tables going in and out of your hands. |
Hello,
I was just thinking if we buy a new TT with the stock cart maybe we should upgrade the cart right away and save the stock cart for when we sell the TT. It seams to me that carts have a life maybe 2000 full plays. You get to hear the music in the best light and you will probably get more money selling it with the virgin cart. Since there is no counter on the cart I would feel better buying that particular TT. Just food for thought. Op, let us know what you ended up doing. |
chakster,
"I have no idea who told you this is the best turntable ever made ?"
Well since you asked, I first read about this in Greg Milner's book Perfecting Sound Forever.
It was never stated as the best turntable ever built, but there was no denying the extraordinary lengths the designers had gone to in their attempt at designing from the ground up a no holds barred ultimate record player. The stand alone cost £60k!
The only other superdeck I had heard about was something called the Techdas 1, I think. Another fabulously larger than life design.
I only later became aware of such things as the remarkable SP10 etc after Technics had relaunched the 1200. |
hshifi -
I don't think anyone cares about a stock cartridge being on a turntable unless it is a really inexpensive rig (if you want to call it that) when they are looking to buy a used table. If the one that comes with it is OK with you, you might as well just keep it and play it. If you want a better one, buy it and I guess hold on to the old one, depending on the cost of the new one.
You can always replace it, or get a new stylus or the cartridge serviced to original specs.
My $.02 |
Chakster - "It is not about saving as you can see, but when it comes to the price for some new equipment it is simply insane (a cartridge for $5k for example or even higher, a phono stage for $10k, a turntable for $20k ... etc)."
As I said it is not about savings, but value. Just being a little nit picky on verbiage, but I think we are saying essentially the same thing.
You must be an active seller on Audiogon with all those cartridges and tables going in and out of your hands.
Yeah, i'm still waiting when I'll be rich, but it never happens because when I sell something I buy something and the rest is for records. |
I’ve probably spent roughly the same on hardware as software over the years. How about you?
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About 80% of the time, the stylus profile makes a bigger difference than both the cartridge and the table itself at the price range you are considering. Try getting something like a shibata or line contact type of stylus to get the best out of vinyl.
Get a Technics SL1200 series DD TT which will serve you perfectly with many years and will not suffer belt drive issues which usually plague most belt drive TTs after about 2-3 years.
As for the cartridge, try a Nagaoka MP300/500 (about $500 on ebay) with a Schiit Mani phono preamp (about $120 new) and you will be more than satisfied.
No need to spend more on a slowly dying technology....
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"No need to spend more on a slowly dying technology....
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Which technology? Direct Drive?
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