Buying a new TT today

Well, it's certainly a stylish deck. Looks like a Clearaudio rebadge, very pretty. 

As you say it will be interesting to see just how big a step up it is from the now upgraded Debut Carbon fitted with the Bronze cart.

It would be great if you can keep us posted. Most of us have been there ourselves but it's still fascinating to see how others approach the same journey.

chakster,

"1) This is my over 40 y.o. Victor TT-101with Coreless Direct Drive motor and the rotation is spot on. You can read more about this TT-101 here: "


Impressive stuff.


"I have no idea why audiophiles older than me never tried some of the best Direct Drive turntables and always refer to the modern mainstream belt drives ? I think it is a lack of experience, because 80% of the "information" about DD turntables coming from a Belt Drive owners is fake news."


I know that back in the late 80s there was so much fanfare in the UK press over belt drive decks. It was all Linn or Rega in those days (or a Dual if you had to).

Even decent decks like the Pink Triangle or Alphason Sonata could hardly make any headway. I took the plunge and bought a Rega 3. It was - ok. 

As for the Japanese direct drive decks, they were only ever mentioned in passing (or letters) and never reviewed, their owners were mocked and the decks universally derided.

It's taken the press a very long time to come round.

Turntable. You will recoup a lot more for your Debut Carbon than you might for your cartridge.

You will need to listen carefully as any potentially huge improvements on your Pro-Ject deck will be hard to find.

The price of turntables and associated gear hardly have a limit. Thankfully sound quality tends to taper off quite dramatically once you reach the likes of the Technics SL1200G etc.

If you can't reach that you should still see a decent step up from the Debut Carbon with the standard SL1200GR plus decent cart and be able to offload your Pro-Ject plus Ortofon 2M Red etc into the bargain.

https://www.stereonet.co.uk/reviews/technics-sl-1200g-turntable-review

chakster,

"I’ve been posting about it before but i want to remind that Neumann Lathemachine operates with Direct Drive Technics SP02 motor. Every record pressing production starts from this Neumann with Technics motor."


I'm glad you reminded us. These little 'details', whilst so important, can so easily get lost, forgotten or just simply ignored. 



"And the new motor from Technics now is the best you can buy. They gave their customers so many options to buy different models with amazing Direct Drive motor, starts from $1700 for SL1200GR and going higher and better in every next model."


And this is also going to be difficult to argue against. For any belt driven turntable at any price.

hshifi,

"So many people have spent a lot of money trying to turn their Honda Civic into a Porsche. Just save up for the Porsche and sell the Civic when you get enough money."


Wise words. Unfortunately some of us had to find out the hard way.

The Pro-Ject Debut Carbon is not a bad deck, as the OP has discovered. It's got much of what the high end decks have. 

What will a top tier turntable give that the Carbon won't?

Maybe a touch more low bass, certainly more scale, and perhaps a finer sense of separation and image. Even then it will have to be the right record, some will still sound more or less the same as the Carbon.

So it might well be better to save up first before making a sideways move. As you say, if it's a Rega then it's going to have to be one of the better ones. 

chakster,

"Pro-Ject is a joke like many audio components designed in the digital world of plastic toys."


That's a little harsh, don't you think?

I once helped a friend set up his Debut Carbon (Ortofon blue/ acrilyc platter) and it's an excellent deck. With the right record you'd never guess the total price. Just one level below the very best.

Yes, the Debut Carbon won't match the Technics for specs (but nothing else anywhere near the price will either) but it would still make an excellent first turntable for anyone (as would the Fluance, Rega or Audio Technica decks).

Wasn't the 1200G frighteningly close in performance to Michael Fremer's Continuum Caliburn deck?

Unfortunately vinyl replay much like CD replay depends very much upon the source recording. Possibly this explains why some audiophiles may find their music selection decreasing as their system resolving power improves.

Shows are often notorious for featuring a very limited but well recorded musical selection. 

Who wants that?

aj523,

"...I was trying not to do all these audiophile type improvements like cables. Are you using the stock cable for the power supply? I always get upgraditis on that.

I started looking at after market mats and so confusing, I called Rega UK this morning and the tech guy told me under no circumstances should I swap out the mat that’s made specifically for the P10’s ceramic platter. So glad i did that. Maybe I’ll ask Rega tomorrow about replacing the stock cord."


I’m sorry but reading that made me feel a little sad. Please tell us you’re joking.

Or else I’m puzzled why you feel that you can get a better result than Rega themselves can after over 40 years of R&D.

The P10 is currently the end result of all of that research and work.

You seem to be highlighting many of the pitfalls that I myself encountered in my audiophile journey.

If you enjoy this sort of thing, fair enough, but I would rather just enjoy the music and leave the R&D to those far better qualified and with far more advanced resources than I could ever have.

Nowadays if I wanted a record player I would look no further than the already technically excellent Technics SL12GR for exactly those reasons.

I’m guessing that the OP too decided to cut this Gordian knot when he made his decision to buy the Marantz TT-15S1.

264win,

http://www.newaudio.it/marantz/TT15S/TT15%20Gramophone%20April%2005.pdf

Good article. From a British magazine too. Gramophone is primarily a classical music magazine but often had decent reviews. My take was that if a component was good enough for classical it would be also be good enough for pop, whereas the reverse might not always be true.

So the Marantz TT15s is a KI tweaked Clearaudio deck. Wow!

Ken Ishiwata was a big loss to audio, part showman and part shaman always stressing balance and flow.

Anyway, you're right that this isn't about the old belt v direct drive argument. At this price point the TT15s is no doubt an excellent turntable.

This is about whether you're happy with it, and you seem to be.

All good.



sokogear,

"I guess Linn went for the money selling out their name to car makers to badge their stereos just like Bose, Mark Levinson, JBL, Burmeister.....You'll know the end is near for Rega if Roy E GAndy ever does that."

As a former owner of the LP12 I think you're right. For me, it soon became a bottomless money pit, and Linn do seem to have been switching their strategy all over the place in recent times.

Unlike Rega of course who have always remained true to the cause since the days Tony Relph and Roy Gandy kicked the whole thing off way back in the 1970s.

Rega, the almost accidental success story after having to play second fiddle to Linn for many years all of a sudden find they're very near the summit themselves now.

Yes they make everything themselves now, but are they taking on too much?Why for example have their speakers gone backwards, and why so many CD players, and where will they go next now there's no one left to follow? 

Is the P10 better than the 1200G?

Questions, questions...

aj523,

"@cd318 and the @chakster
Sorry no idea what you are talking about. Because I asked about upgrading a stock cable that means I’m trying to change everything on this incredible machine? "


Err... you also mentioned a replacement mat, did you not?


"Rega isn’t going to put a $300 power cord on their table, they use a basic power cable that they didn’t design and its the law of diminishing returns....but that doesn’t mean its necessarily a complete waste."


Before presuming, maybe it’s better if you can tell us what Rega have to say. That might be useful information for other owners of Rega decks.


"I was just asking anyway. Jesus. So glad i didn’t go with a Technic or other DD design. They are ugly too."


Thank you for your opinion.
Many may not agree.



big_greg,

The Funk Firm are also another interesting company that seems to fly under the radar nowadays, and why do we so rarely hear about Origin Live?

It wasn’t that long ago that their turntable arms were hailed as the very best in the business.

Could it all be simply be down to reviewers fashion and flavour of the month based upon advertising revenues?

aj523,

"Fun stuff. But why is everyone so preachy?"


Yes, it should definitely be fun, before anything else, including any expensive, possibly useless or counterproductive tweaks.

Remember the OP was faced with a budget of $2k and somehow, despite that we got carried away.

The OP didn’t and it will be interesting to hear how he gets on with his new deck.

sdrsdrsdr,

"But I have to say piano from some of these tapes was the  closest to the piano downstairs that I’ve ever heard in my room. But not in the audiophile sense. The tapes don’t have the frequency extension, soundstage, and air. But wait. Neither does my piano."


It's always more interesting to hear about direct comparisons rather than what we audiophiles think or expect that we should be hearing.

I'm not too surprised that tape came out ahead in your experience here despite expectations of 'frequency extension, soundstage, and air.' This kind of unexpected result, which has happened to me on a few occasions, can take a while to fully sink in. 


Regarding MM v MC cartridges, I favour the former as they have a higher output and are less fussy regarding arms and might even track better. Sound archivists and broadcasters also tend to stick with Moving Magnets.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the cartridge is in effect little more than a slave electrical generator under total control of a much larger and important one - the turntable drive motor itself.

Anything the motor (turntable/arm) does incorrectly will be inevitably magnified by the cartridge output, even moreso for MC cartridges which unfortunately have a lower output etc.

Just where the bottleneck with today's vinyl playback systems is will depend upon which turntable, which arm, and which cartridge. Case by case.

Cost can be a very poor indicator of performance for all three components. Nothing new here.

sokogear,

"15-20 years ago I had a Music Hall MMF 5 and I was going to put a Rega arm on it (RB700). When I looked at it, it was almost the same price as trading in the whole table ($7 or $800 versus $1150) for a P5, so I did it. That's how you get sucked down the rabbit hole. The P5 ended up holding it's value a hell of a lot better than what would have been a bastardized MMF 5."

Good advice, if you ever plan to sell later. Original spec plus boxes etc will get you more.

"If I had cash burning a hole in my pocket, my local stereo salesmen would be glad to help me empty it to get something that sounds better. There is ALWAYS something better (or coming out) as even Mike Lavigne knows."

I'm sure they would. 

As the OP wisely decided, it's generally best to stick to do your research, stick to your budget and accept whatever compromise that may bring.

Getting an all in package like a Marantz TT-15S1, or a Rega or any of the Technics decks seems a wise move too.

chakster,

"This is why the price tag is not the key to a perfect sound."


I don't think it ever has been anything more than an extremely lazy way of thinking. 

No amount of industry encouragement to spend can ever change that. Hi-fi shows are notorious for demonstrating that. The data from blind listening tests suggests the same.

Even in the case of turntables where good engineering does not tend to come cheap, cost is not always a good indicator of performance. 


Michael Fremer (Analog Planet) put up his Continuum Labs Caliburn ("that costs as much as a house" $200k+) against the then new Technics 1200G ($4k).


These videos can still be found on his Analog Planet YouTube channel. 


Technics SL1200 v Continuum Caliburn
https://youtu.be/qY9YYkqW8ng

After the results proved inconclusive Fremer decided to offer the same comparison featuring a vocal track this time.

Vocal track comparison
https://youtu.be/QKfs5lYZuQk


There was even a later follow up video posted by another YouTuber who attempted to analyse and compare the data between these two turntables.

Analysis Caliburn v 1200G
https://youtu.be/ZEGj6iim57w

Bear in mind also that the Continuum Labs Caliburn was long held to be one of, if not the very best turntable in existence.

chakster,

"I have no idea who told you this is the best turntable ever made ?"

Well since you asked, I first read about this in Greg Milner's book Perfecting Sound Forever. 

It was never stated as the best turntable ever built, but there was no denying the extraordinary lengths the designers had gone to in their attempt at designing from the ground up a no holds barred ultimate record player. The stand alone cost £60k!

The only other superdeck I had heard about was something called the Techdas 1, I think. Another fabulously larger than life design.

I only later became aware of such things as the remarkable SP10 etc after Technics had relaunched the 1200.