Buying a new TT today

Sokogear 

I hear you and i have no idea if the P10 is worth it. Its actually one 50 percent with the same Alpheta cartridge. But still.  I read the reviews and the youtube videos and its intoxicating lol. So im like what's another $2k.   I know at some point I need to upgrade my speakers but thats another story. 

I don't always agree with everything that chakster says but I'm in agreement with his views on this. Get a new Technics, don't get on the Rega merry-go-round or some other table that is in need of constant upgrading.
The turntables most basic requirement is to hold speed. Most belt drive TT have issues with that, some are so poor they won't even list specs on it.
My personal favorites are the older JVC/Victor QL-7, QL-8 or QL-10 tables. But I understand if you want to buy new.
BillWojo

The engineers have told me that it really depends how much you want to spend. To get a quality direct drive that limits vibration due to the motor being directly underneath, you need to spend at least $3k, if not $5k.   Originally I was way under that, under $2k and was told by everyone ( and i mean the real scientists and dealers that carry both), hands down belt drive over direct drive at that price point.  It's worth revisiting for me now...

Wojo - there is no Rega merry go round. You must be thinking of Linn. Their LP12 has an option list like a Porsche. I've heard 

Rega is pretty clear- with each rung up the ladder you get a better arm (usually) a better power supply (usually) and better platter (I think always). Cartridges are separate, but packaged with a discount. I don't buy the Rega cartridges, because they would be better with a Rega phono stage, and I p/refer flexibility.

AJ - Excluding cartridges, P8 is $3100 and P10 is $5700. Even if you can get the dealer to give you all your money back from the P8, it's still $2600 more, not $2K. I know, it's the round down factor when you're buying as opposed to the round up factor when you are selling. Please let me know if you do it and your thoughts.

I wanted to keep my total out of pocket below $10K. If I ever want a very noticeable improvement, I know I will probably have to spend another $10K or more (electrostatics, subwoofer, more amp(s), P10 or Linn LP12, Lyra or Koetsu or upgraded Van den hul cartridge & phono stage) so if I can get an audible improvement under $1K at this level, I'll do it. All depends on your philosophy and how the law of diminishing returns affects you.

Now when I do get something new, it's with the mindset that I am done "for now". My amp is 15 years old, cartridge 8 1/2 (will need an overhaul or replacement within a year or so), table is a little over a year old, and when I discovered how much a phono stage would help, I got the Sutherland Insight with Linear Power Supply a month or two ago. I didn't even know how important this was until this damn virus unfortunately (or fortunately) has given me more time to think about my system and look at the Audiogon site, and discover that this was a giant step over the Phono stage in my Plinius amp that has a switch inside between MC and MM. I had always thought that it either has a phono stage or it doesn't. Furthest thing from the truth.

 

Sokogear,
Splitting hairs I know,but assuming one gets the 8 or 10 with the new Alpheta 3 cartridge (which every dealer and review online recommends doing) the difference in cost is 50%. $4,395 vs. $6,695. My dealer (Audio Advice) gives me 30 days to decide with a full credit including shipping cost. I have the Sutherland 20/20 with LPS coming in today so will compare to the KC Vibe.

AND if I’m going to spend $6k+, should I reconsider and look at DD (as suggested by some posters here)....

But I really do LOVE the Rega and TT’s with their engineering philosophy are their niche for 50 years.

The engineers have told me that it really depends how much you want to spend. To get a quality direct drive that limits vibration due to the motor being directly underneath, you need to spend at least $3k, if not $5k. Originally I was way under that, under $2k and was told by everyone ( and i mean the real scientists and dealers that carry both), hands down belt drive over direct drive at that price point. It’s worth revisiting for me now...

Did your scientists ever heard about Technics SP-10mkII, Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101 turntables ? They are all under $1500 and all of them have superb Direct Drive motors, different but all good. They are all in best buy category today.

Try to find anything better than Denon DP-80 for the price you can get it for (in mint condition), simply amazing.

For higher price we could add Kenwood L07D, Luxman PD444, Pioneer P3 or P10, Technics SP-10 mk3 ...

When someone telling us you have to spend at least .... i wish to know what does that mean ? You can spend much more on the worst turntables ever if you don’t know where to find and what to find.

The best Direct Drive are from Japan and from the 80’s. Prices on used market is way different than retail prices on the shops, it’s another world, parallel reality. Someone will tell you you have to spend $1000 for phono cable or interconnect, but you can buy same cable used for $300 online.

Don’t forget there is a Direct Drive motor under the Neumann cutting Lathe. They cut on Direct Drive. This is where your record get started, and you know somehow there is nothing bad coming from the motor under the platter to the cutter stylus and the lacquer cut on constant speed. Every lacquer disc must be approved by the producer/musician before the label will send the master disc to the pressing plant, then there will be a test press for final approval.

Direct Drive is reference technology, all those Direct CUT made using direct drive motor. This happens when signal from the mics goes throught the mixing console to the cutterheard direct on disc. There is a Direct Drive motor under that disc.

We can learn more about Direct Drive motors made for Cutting Lathe, the Technics SP-02 is only one of them.

P.S. thanks to jpjones for posting those pages in his blog.

I went from a ProJect Debut (2M Blue) which sounded good to me to a Technics SL1200GR with Nagaoka MP-150 and its really nice.

The Nag has none of the rising top end of the red/blue 2M carts and great bass. Very happy and look forward to upgrading the Nag after a phono upgrade happens.

Hey AJ, - personally, I would look at other cartridges. I know Rega is giving you a good deal by combining them, but look at it this way: does anyone ever buy a Rega cartridge for a non-Rega turntable? Probably not. How 'bout the arms? You bet - plus they OEM them for other tables as well.

The Sound Organisation (Rega US distributor) has the P10/Alpheta 3 shown for $7700. If you can get it for $6695, that sounds like a deal - only $1000 for the cartridge. Logically, it should be $6995. $4395 for the P8 combo is charging $1300 for the cartridge.

I love my Sutherland Insight, but maybe the Rega Aria Phono stage is worth considering for $1500 if you're getting the Alpheta 3. I've heard some good things about it, and I am sure it is perfectly set for the Alpheta. Sutherland 20/20 is supposedly great, but I bought a used Insight for $875 and Ron Sutherland (great guy) sent me the linear power supply upgrade package for the $350 upgrade price (I installed it and he said he would do it for free but i would have had to pay back and forth shipping), so it was less than half the price of the 20/20 combo, and it was my first phono stage and I was skeptical about their value. Ask your stereo guy what he thinks about the Aria. I hate to take business away from Ron, but I think it is worth considering. I think I saw a used Aria for $1000 on Audiogon when I was searching for the Insight.

Sorry for muddying the waters, but I wonder if the guy will let you try the P10 also so you can see if it the difference is worth it to you. I am sure it sounds better. When I got the P8's arm, the home listening was what sold me. I wasn't given it as a trial, but was told I could return it if I didn't like it. With my maneuvering I was able to be all in for the complete analogue rig for under $5K (P8/Insight wLPS/Van den hul One Special). With your P10/2020 combo, you're looking at almost double. Maybe it's worth it...but it would be about what I spent on my entire system.

Depends how much you want to jump around to save some cash. I think I've bought one or two components from every high end dealer in my area that is knowledgeable, some new, some used. If you can get a dealer to sell you something used he can attest to, and it is reasonably priced, that is the best of both worlds. Don't let the dealer intimidate you into overpaying or overbuying or feeling guilty about not buying a high enough level product. Remember - there is ALWAYS something better out there. Sometimes these guys act like they're doing you a favor by selling you exclusive pieces. These days there is no such thing as exclusivity. Everyone is hungry for business. My go to guy will give me 15% off at a minimum. (He is not a Rega dealer - doesn't want to carry their entire line).

I am a big Rega fan and don't know too much about Direct Drive tables other than my experience I mentioned in an earlier post with the Phase Linear 8000 which has many motors and sounds nothing like a clean belt drive turntable. Even the $500 Music Hall sounded way better. But like all debates, I don't think it is about the technology, it is about the execution of the individual product/model. I am sure there are great sounding direct drive tables, I just don't know anyone who has one or recommends them other than these guys on Audiogon saying to buy a 30+ year old one.

Hey Chakster - you may be correct about the speed of belt drive tables in general if their power supplies are not great, but on all Rega's mid tables and above, the speed is fine with external PSUs. I have an app that measures it - right on the money for 33 1/3 and 45 rpm speeds.

Wow thx. Good info.  Look at any dealer online that sells Rega,  the P10 is $5,695 and if you get the Apheta 3, its only a $1,000 extra with a total of $6,695. And its installed directly by Rega so its perfect.  The cartridge on its own is $2,000. 

With the usual 10/15 percent dealer discount, the price winds up being around $5,700, not bad with that beefy power supply.  

The 20/20 with LPS , i got a demo for $2k.  So $7,700  all in.  I researched the 20/20, and with the LPS, its supposed to perform as well as his $4k Duo.  The engineers and sales guys I spoke to were pretty much in consensus that the Rega with the Sutherland phono is a better combo than Regas own phono at the same price point.  Even the KC VIBE was preferred over the Aria and thry are definitely making less margin on that advice! 

This is fun.  

Really weird - different Rega dealers have different list prices. From $6700-7700 for the P10, but $4395 for the P8....strange. Sound Organisation included. Rega is a strange company from a marketing/sales standpoint.

If you are sold on the P10, $6695 sounds pretty good. I actually talked to Ron Sutherland a few times when he was helping me out with my upgrade and he mentioned the 20/20 was better than the Insight by a good bit from a materials standpoint, with a bigger difference than between the Little Loco ($3800) and and the 20/20. The power supply on the Loco is the same board as the one I got on the Insight (that recently became available and was only the 3rd person to do that install myself). But the Little Loco is better than the 20/20. The law of diminishing returns....

The LL is a different (I think newer) design that Ron really likes and he kind of mentioned that would be a good next step for me and he would just charge me the price difference - really nice guy, but I'm not going to drop $2K for an upgraded phono stage at this point. Who knows how crazy/obsessed with upgraditis I'll get in the future.

If the dealer is giving you the 20/20 with the LPS for $2K, that's a 25% discount and very good. You'd be at $8700 for the full Rega rig with the 20/20 w/LPS. You said $7700 - if he is giving you another $1000 off, that's an excellent deal. My Rega dealer wouldn't move on price, but I bought in stages with the arm first, and then the table 3-4 months later. I had to twist his arm to sell me the upgraded table for the difference between what I already paid and the P8. It cost me like $365 extra since I didn't get much of a discount $100 (I don't think the dealer knew the actual price was $100 more), but live and learn...I would never have bought the whole P8 at once and paid $2K, bit I got sucked in in stages.

So is he willing to sell you the P8/Alphreta 3 for $3500 (a 15% discount off of the $3095 +$1000)? That would mean $2200 more for the P10 (>60% more). You could get the whole analogue rig for $5500. Depends on what you want to spend. Either way, you can't go wrong.

If you go for the P10, you could be done with the analogue rig and it would be the absolute best part of your system which you wouldn't have to touch until after your speaker and amp upgrades. Just make sure when you buy each piece it is better than (or at least equal to) the rest of the components in your system. You should have an idea about where you want your total investment to be for this plateau. If the P10 fits in (40-50% for the rig) around $15K total, then go for it. 

so how did we get here? The OP has a budget of $2K, which sounds fine to me. Now we're talking about 7-10K systems....?

Come on guys -- start your own thread and argue all day about DD vs belt drive and the P10 vs the P8....

Regards!

Hello everyone, OP here...

First, I want to say that I’ve read every response and WOW! What a blessing to have such a deep and diverse base of knowledge that people like myself can tap and is freely given! My hat is off to all of you who have responded... THANK YOU!!!!!!

Second, I’m sorry it has taken so long to respond to all of you! My apologies....
Last Thursday I did go out and look at TT’s at two great shops here in Colorado Springs. I spent 8 hours between the two shops and they were fantastic with me, so I tip my hat to the both of them too!

So to answer the big question..... Yes I did buy a TT aaaaaaaand I bought a cartridge to upgrade the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon.
So I asked the question on which way to go and ended up going both ways lol I just had to see what improvement could be made to the Pro-Ject and if it could match a TT that costs over three times as much? We shall see....

Now, I checked out Rega 8, VPI Scout, Music Hall 7.3, and the Marantz TT—15s1...
I really wanted to look at the VPI Prime Scout! I was very interested in it but my one shop here said they couldn’t tell me how long it would take to get but, it could be some time and they just didn’t know how long it would be? The second shop said they couldn’t get them anymore at all? Some will say internet but after the Covid shut down I really wanted to give my business to my local shops!
Anyway I missed out on the Prime Scout, maybe some day?

At the end of the day, even with its quirkiness, I went with synergy and the cartridge, and the arm, and yes it’s good looks! I bought the Marantz...
Aaaaaand I bought the Ortofon Bronze for the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon.

So I know that the Marantz wasn’t talked about but once in this thread so I’m thinking it’s not thought of much anymore but my guy at the Sound Shop here in the Springs who is a vinyl guy raves about it and KI did develop it along side and at the same time of my Integrated soooooo.....
Im hoping, praying lol, that I get that big step up and it has that same wow factor as the Pro-Ject did when I first heard it!

Thanks again everyone and please post up, good or bad, your thoughts and insights of my two purchases!

@gasbose 
I just realized that not only were you the last to post and to try to bring this back to the original discussion, but you were the only one to recommend doing both....
Buy a TT and a cartridge for the Pro-Ject! Nice job at reading my future lol I might appoint you my sage lol 

Well, it's certainly a stylish deck. Looks like a Clearaudio rebadge, very pretty. 

As you say it will be interesting to see just how big a step up it is from the now upgraded Debut Carbon fitted with the Bronze cart.

It would be great if you can keep us posted. Most of us have been there ourselves but it's still fascinating to see how others approach the same journey.

Hey Chakster - you may be correct about the speed of belt drive tables in general if their power supplies are not great, but on all Rega's mid tables and above, the speed is fine with external PSUs. I have an app that measures it - right on the money for 33 1/3 and 45 rpm speeds.

We're reading about speed stability issues here on audiogon very often, also about grounding issues and many other issues with belt drive turntable at that cost. 

How often are you gonna change the belt to make sure your speed is stable over the years? This is a weak part of belt drives too. Another weak part is very low torque.  

I don't have any knowledge of whether KI was involved with the Marantz TT-15S1, but would be surprised if he did.  Maybe the design of the plinth?  By all accounts, it's a rebadged Clearaudio Emotion.  I owned the Emotion and it's a very nice table.  I had a couple of quibbles with it.  The first was that the motor had a tendency to move and I was always fiddling with it to keep it from touching the plinth.  I put a thin piece of sorbothane under it to keep the motor in place, which helped a lot.  Another was that there is a second (optional) ground location underneath the table which was always coming loose.  Not sure if the TT-15S1 has that also.  I ended up taping that in place.  A nice table over all and easy on the eyes.

GasBose and OP
On behalf of sogogear and myself, definitely apologize for hijacking the thread and will refrain after these last comments. I just got into 2 channel TT vinyl during this pandemic and I absolutely love it and wanted to express my uncontrollable upgrade fever.

I was definitely not smart about it. My advice to others: stretch your budget and go for the best TT you can afford, since that’s where the analog signal starts (this isn’t digital) and then upgrade the rest of your system over the years. AJ out.

I have to respond to Chakster's question about belt wear/speed of table.

There is an app (RPM) where you can test the rpms on your table. Mine is at 33.26 and 44.9 respectively, the slightly slower rotation due to the weight of my iPhone on the platter versus weight of a record I am sure. You know the physics fact that measuring anything reduces it's speed if some (even minuscule) weight is added to it. Even with that , it's off by about .2%. Exactly the same at both speeds.

The higher level Regas use 2 parallel belts so there is even less worry about elasticity of the belt. On my last Rega, after 9 years, they guy said it was fine, but just replace it for $30 since I was upgrading the arm. These are not rubber bands, but highly developed perfectly cylindrical belts that are short (unlike others I've seen that look stretched on unnamed belt drive tables made in NJ) and chemically manufactured to maintain their elasticity over great stretches of time.

The lower torque is all part of the Rega philosophy which makes sense. Lowest possible weight of the platter and table connection to the arm base and the highest rigidity will give you the least amount of effort possible to spin the platter. No record weights or big heavy contraptions to "add stability". With less force there is less friction, effort and torque which leads to much less internal noise absorbed by the arm/cartridge transmitted through the system. That's why they sound so completely transparent. Give it a try! You might see the light like I did 20 years ago.

I recently purchased a Rega Planar 10.  The RB3000 tonearm is a revelation.  The plinth/drive/entire assembly with their exotic materials make a very significant difference.  I thought that I knew my vinyl collection very well.  I am now hearing information that I never had heard in the past.  Details and nuance that is amazingly, well, just there.  It's like a new discovery.  I carried over the same cartridge from my previous deck, a Lyra Delos.  So the cartridge, and also the phono stage (Manley Chinook) remained the same.  Apples to apples.  The only change was the turntable.  It's an amazing performer.  It's also a significant step up in price.  If it fits your budget, go for it.  You will be very happy that you did.

Yeah i pulled the trigger. PLANAR 10 with Apheta3 cart coming Thursday. 

There is an app (RPM) where you can test the rpms on your table. Mine is at 33.26 and 44.9 respectively, the slightly slower rotation due to the weight of my iPhone on the platter versus weight of a record I am sure. You know the physics fact that measuring anything reduces it’s speed if some (even minuscule) weight is added to it. Even with that , it’s off by about .2%. Exactly the same at both speeds.

.... Give it a try! You might see the light like I did 20 years ago.

@sokogear

No, thanks. I don’t think i need a Rega belt drive (or any belt drive) anywhere near my collection of the best Direct Drive turntables.

1) This is my over 40 y.o. Victor TT-101 with Coreless Direct Drive motor and the rotation is spot on. You can read more about this TT-101 here:

"If the TT-101 series is almost completely unknown outside Japan and Germany, it is nevertheless one of the best LP record player system ever made....

The Double Bi-Directional Servo, as its name suggests, adds to a conventional FG Servo a second quartz-lock servo section loop outside of the drive itself. Double phase comparison offers negligible drift and no fluctuation under heavy load conditions. This precision also allows a unique feature : the control of the pitch withn ±6Hz around the A fundamental (440Hz) without switching off the Quartz locking !

The motor itself is a coreless DC with 180 slots where the servo is applied on both positive and negative areas to avoid speed overshooting when started or when correcting speed.

It was mostly Victor’s professional LP players that were widely accepted in the Japanese broadcasting studios with big guns like the JL-B1000P, the original Victor professional record player the TT-101 series and later tt-801 came from."

2) Luxman PD-444 is my everyday turntable and i love it, another Direct Drive designed for use with two tonearms and it’s super easy to swap tonearms quickly without messing around with wooden armboards like on many other turntables. I even bought two PD-444 and using them with 4 tonearms. More about this wonderful direct drive is here.

3) Yet another great DD in my system is Denon DP-80 and this is the best value on the market today, absolutely amazing turntable. More information HERE.

4) I already mentioned my SP-10 mkII i’ve been using for a long time, i sold it when i bought Luxman PD-444 and i like my LUX even better.

Searching for rare cartridges and studying this subject i need many tonearms to match carts very well and to compare them. I am not interested in any tuntable with one fixed tonearm, because i change tonearms often (all my tonearms are different size from "9 to "12 inch). The most versatile turntable is Luxman PD-444 Direct Drive (by the way Luxman made a Belt Drive version with vacuum pump too, it was PD-555). Both turntables designed by Micro Seiki for Luxman.

I have no idea why audiophiles older than me never tried some of the best Direct Drive turntables and always refer to the modern mainstream belt drives ? I think it is a lack of experience, because 80% of the "information" about DD turntables coming from a Belt Drive owners is fake news.

We have different preferences and that’s fine, but people comparing apples to oranges, each time i read about DD turntable from a Belt Drive owners they’re referring to some cheap entry level Direct Drives they tried 20-40 years ago. This is weird.

P.S. The best answer to OP question is vintage direct drive of the highest quality (my personal preferences as you can see) or brand new Technics because i don't know anything else (at the same price or even twice as much) that can compete with new Technics reference models. 

Hi,
belt driven tables can have very high torque, DPS for example, dead silent and dead accurate on speed, with lots of friction by design, apart from its other sonic virtues like transparency, rythmic qualities and amazing information retrieval.
Japaneese DD turntables are highly justified with above mentioned models, though i would include Sony's X9 and TS8000 that could fit easily in the list but costing more.
I agree that they would outperform many modern belt drives though their age will be of serious concern to new buyers. In the late 70's early 80's both sides of the Atlantic were trying to mimic and prove that the best was something like LP12. No space for big and expensive Japaneese tt's, their arms or other components. Nowdays we discover that they still make top sound.

chakster,

"1) This is my over 40 y.o. Victor TT-101with Coreless Direct Drive motor and the rotation is spot on. You can read more about this TT-101 here: "


Impressive stuff.


"I have no idea why audiophiles older than me never tried some of the best Direct Drive turntables and always refer to the modern mainstream belt drives ? I think it is a lack of experience, because 80% of the "information" about DD turntables coming from a Belt Drive owners is fake news."


I know that back in the late 80s there was so much fanfare in the UK press over belt drive decks. It was all Linn or Rega in those days (or a Dual if you had to).

Even decent decks like the Pink Triangle or Alphason Sonata could hardly make any headway. I took the plunge and bought a Rega 3. It was - ok. 

As for the Japanese direct drive decks, they were only ever mentioned in passing (or letters) and never reviewed, their owners were mocked and the decks universally derided.

It's taken the press a very long time to come round.

To the OP, enjoy your turntables, hope the Marantz brings that WOW factor,
I can only relate my story here, by no means I'm providing advice.

Before Technics released their new turntables 3 - 4 years ago I wanted a TT and because of nostalgic reasons found a used SL-1210Mk5, great TT, updated the cart to a DL-301mk2 and used it a few times, at the same time I improved my digital rig and the results were much better so my TT it's been collecting dust. Then Technics started producing TTs again.
My digital rig evolved and the sound is magical but coming here to Audiogon and reading the analog forum got the itch in me to try something out in a smart and proper way so I started reading and I am familiar with more of the users here following their opinions and biases.
Among these opinions I formed myself an idea that the DD TT if designed properly can yield (for the money) better results than the ID and BD.
Since I don't only take the Audiogon comments into account I asked at an audio show a friend of mine (who's also a manufacturer of well know and respected audio equipment) his opinion and he stated "Luis, for the money get one of the newer DD Technics, you won't be wrong with it"
Technics is a great turntable but the older models although designed extremely well are not really Audiophile grade turntables and have their obvious limitations because of age so there is just so much that you can do with an older Technics, you can certainly upgrade it with KAB and other mods but you will be spending more on getting it up to your standards. Reading MC (millercarbon) posts on how to adjust TT etc I realized my antiskate on my arm is a little out of whack so spending more money trying to make a Porsche out of a Honda no thank you. So I'm selling my existing SL-1210mk5 and getting a new Technics 1200GR

Chakster here provided valuable advice, he is very straight with his opinions and yes he could be more "political" speaking his mind but I believe in these comments he provides honest advice, what I partially agree on with him is the vintage TT's, he certainly is well versed on Japanese equipment and he could get a vintage TT (like he has done) and make it a great audiophile TT but he has the knowledge and I  don't so purchasing a used TT for me I could get lucky and get a good unit but I could get a crappy one too so getting vintage unless I know for certain I'm getting a good SP10 or DP80 etc I won't do because of my limitations evaluating such equipment.
So to me the road was well defined, if remorse strikes later on (not likely but possible) I'm sure I will be able to sell the Technics with almost no losses, BTW look how many of the new Technics are on the used market and which discount have on them, almost none, that tells me the owners are happy owners and it maintains its value.
Oh last but not least, some BD TT's are certainly renowned and I don't doubt these are great but at what cost? $5000? $10000? that's why I think I will be happy with my Technics using good carts.
I'm not intending to debate BD vs DD, I'm just saying I think DD will serve me better for the money spent that's all.

Just my 2 cents

Chakster is a tremendous hobbyist/tinkerer/researcher/turntable historian and quite knowledgeable about DD tables.

As I've stated before, it is not about the technology, but the execution of the specific model. Whatever table you have, there is ALWAYS something better sounding.

I believe in KISS - one table, one arm, one cartridge, one phono stage and spend time enjoying the music and the records and appreciating the quality of the sound from the music I like.

@big_greg
Here is a interview with KI where he talks about designing the TT-15s1

http://www.newaudio.it/marantz/TT15S/TT15%20Gramophone%20April%2005.pdf

BD vs DD
So I’m new in the TT game and it’s been wonderfully fun but I’m not new to the HiFi game...
So my take on it is this. It’s been a interesting debate about BD vs DD but the point one is clearly superior and can be backed up through specs is something of a half truth.
There have been so many amps, pre’s, cd Units and d/a converters that either spec out much better than others or are built in supposedly superior way and yet they don’t sound as good as the supposed inferior unit?
What that says is that not only is the ear of the beholder but also the way a manufacturer can manipulate what they have into their house sound. Some manufacturers are very good at this and some are great at it! They have the ability to get more sound out of what they have to work with.
Anyway I’m sure the Technics are great but I’m sure there are BD’s in their price range that some listeners would prefer the sound of...
jmo

Thanks for posting that article.

Anyway I’m sure the Technics are great but I’m sure there are BD’s in their price range that some listeners would prefer the sound of...

You could say that when you will be able to compare them side by side with the same cartridge in the same system.

No, you will not find equal sounding BD at the same price range that new Technics GR for example ($1700, Technics keeping the price very low), or equal to any of the vintage turntables i have mentioned in the earlier posts, simply because we’re living in the digital era and comparing almost any new BD turntable to the Japanese DD from the golden age (used) is strange. Prices for new BD always higher but the build quality is not higher (this is marketing) and tonearms on them always inferior in comparison to the best Japanese DD from the 80’s. Specific models like SP-10mkII, DP-80 are cheaper and better turntables. Same about Japanese vintage tonearms (always cheaper and better). I rate some vintage DD higher than new Technics.

Also you can’t change tonearm on most of those Belt Drive turntables, manufacturer want you to stay with their arm (which is often not adjustable for some other better cartridges). This is definitely Rega strategy. 

Why do the Technic TT’s primarily target the Dj crowd and other professionals? I even saw one ad targeted to the audiophile consumer but the marketing slogan said something like "spin records like your favorite Dj ". Odd.  That kinda turned me off when I was looking. 

@aj523 Apparently you know nothing about DJing history, back in the days Radio Broadcast and Discotheques were equipped with serious systems (speakers, turntables and stuff) brands like Technics, Victor, Denon, EMT and even Garrard created some of the best studio turntables ever. Many cartridge manufacturers also oriented on professional market (Stanton, Grace, Denon ... ) in the 70’s. In Japan you can visit a lot of bars with Pioneer TAD speakers or Altec, JBL 4350... and tons of vintage equipment from that era for playing records and create an atmosphere. Professional format was Vinyl and R2R. It was analog era and i think innovative design from turntable manufacturers was made for (and tested by) industry professionals first, then adopted for rich music lovers.

Same with recording studios, pressing plants ... it is all professional field, not home audio. Ortofon was manufacturing cutting styli, Technics was manufacturing motors for Neumann cutting lathe. Victor also made a lot for professionals. Denon 107 MM and later 103 MC originally designed for radio broadcast at NHK in Japan.

This is all history, Technics should not hesitate to mention that SL1200 mk7 or even GR or even GAE cab be easily used by professional DJs/Clubs if they have funds to buy them.

The problem is that DJ industry is no longer about high fidelity, it is an entertainment, most of the modern analog equipment for DJs is dirt cheap crap, but everyone can buy it and use it and we have a lot of very bad djs with awful taste in music.

A cell phone in the beginning was very exotic device for rich people only, now every teenager have a cell phone and it’s a micro computer in his pocket. Technologies goes masses. Digital replaced analog even in professional field (radiostations, studios, clubs).

Now an expensive analog gear is for audiophiles, fanatics. but the majority of them are all digital already.

But we have analog audiophiles and we have analog DJs, those people prefer analog format (Vinyl Records, R2R... ). Many studios are still analog and many musicians recorded in analog only.

If Technics has improved their iconic turntables to an audiophile level it is great ! But visually it is almost the same iconic DJ turntable like older SL1200mkII, even more powerful motor, 78rpm included for some models, pitch control and high torque are still there. So why not mention that every professional DJ can use it (or every audiophile can be a home deejay:)) ?

All that speech about Technics (DJ turntable or Audiophile turntable) is about an image and reputation. It’s like a Heavy Metalist in leather jacket going to the stylish Mod Club. He may shock someone, because it’s two different cultural group of music lovers, but they are all humans.

If i will tell you that before Technics many Deejays have been using Thorens TD125 belt drive and Garrard 301 idler drive, do you think it can effect somehow the quality of those classic turntables that now mainly used by audiophiles (and not by DJs anymore).

@chakster
Thanks for the history lesson - I did not know really any of that and THATs my EXACT point....many consumers with money do not either and so i was just commenting in my opinion, (which I'm allowed still in this (my) country, perhaps that will change though),  that  it seems like a bad idea from a marketing perspective. It turned me off in another direction right away. 

Why do the Technic TT’s primarily target the Dj crowd and other professionals? I even saw one ad targeted to the audiophile consumer but the marketing slogan said something like "spin records like your favorite Dj ". Odd. That kinda turned me off when I was looking.

The newer Technics turntables are being marketed primarily to "audiophiles".  The fact that the Technics SL 1200 MK2 had characteristics that made it great for DJ'ing, doesn't disqualify it from being a great sounding home turntable.  Quite the opposite, especially if you like to listen to music loud and have speakers and/or subwoofers capable of producing a lot of bass.  A few inexpensive tweaks like better feet, fluid damping, upgrading the mat, and a few others can have a noticeable positive impact. 

In terms of sound quality, I'd say my SL 1200 MK2 is 95% as good as my VPI Classic 2 with a Classic 3 tonearm. 

I haven't heard the new Technics tables, but if I was thinking about getting a new table, they would be at or near the top of my list to audition.

Chakster - if you knew anything about Rega, the first thing they were (and are) historically know for is their tonearms. They OEM them to many others turntable companies. Why would you ever put an arm on one of their tables with a much lower value proposition? They offer their cartridges packaged with their tables at a significant discount, but can handle pretty much any cartridge natively or with a spacer that they sell, anticipating people like me either don't want their cartridge or are not in the market for one.

I'm not very familiar with VPI tables (I think they are overpriced and I don't like the way the arms float which makes it more difficult to cue the record and their wires hang in the air) but I believe you can change arms pretty easily, as they make multi-arm tables. There are less expensive belt drive tables in addition to the lower end Regas from Rega imitators like Project and Music Hall, which at their low ends tend to offer complete packages for entry level costs for the younger crowd on tighter budgets. Those guys are improving their tables these days, but problem is their arms aren't as good as Rega's. Not sure what Technics offers these days, but I just don't hear much about them (other than on Audiogon from the old timers). Maybe it's the noise their motors generate....

I'm not a Rega zealot, and a lot of dealers don't carry them because Rega forces them to carry their whole line. I think they are the only company that makes everything except Linn (who seems to have lost their way, shrinking their TT offerings down to just the LP12 and reducing their dealer network significantly in the US). I do believe Rega either stopped or will stop making CD players and never started with streaming devices. It's a shame about Linn because they used to make some really nice mid end tables like the Axis a while back.I almost bought one, but it was before my Phase Linear (Pioneer-Japanese) table broke. I wish I did.  

I guess Linn went for the money selling out their name to car makers to badge their stereos just like Bose, Mark Levinson, JBL, Burmeister.....You'll know the end is near for Rega if Roy E GAndy ever does that.

Enjoy the music, not the noise.

264win,

http://www.newaudio.it/marantz/TT15S/TT15%20Gramophone%20April%2005.pdf

Good article. From a British magazine too. Gramophone is primarily a classical music magazine but often had decent reviews. My take was that if a component was good enough for classical it would be also be good enough for pop, whereas the reverse might not always be true.

So the Marantz TT15s is a KI tweaked Clearaudio deck. Wow!

Ken Ishiwata was a big loss to audio, part showman and part shaman always stressing balance and flow.

Anyway, you're right that this isn't about the old belt v direct drive argument. At this price point the TT15s is no doubt an excellent turntable.

This is about whether you're happy with it, and you seem to be.

All good.



sokogear,

"I guess Linn went for the money selling out their name to car makers to badge their stereos just like Bose, Mark Levinson, JBL, Burmeister.....You'll know the end is near for Rega if Roy E GAndy ever does that."

As a former owner of the LP12 I think you're right. For me, it soon became a bottomless money pit, and Linn do seem to have been switching their strategy all over the place in recent times.

Unlike Rega of course who have always remained true to the cause since the days Tony Relph and Roy Gandy kicked the whole thing off way back in the 1970s.

Rega, the almost accidental success story after having to play second fiddle to Linn for many years all of a sudden find they're very near the summit themselves now.

Yes they make everything themselves now, but are they taking on too much?Why for example have their speakers gone backwards, and why so many CD players, and where will they go next now there's no one left to follow? 

Is the P10 better than the 1200G?

Questions, questions...

I beleive Rega has stretched a little thin going for growth, but now are paring back, discontinuing CD players and not getting into streaming. Both good news. I think they are at the summit. Who is their competition? Linn? VPI? Clear Audio? I don't know....

Linn must have been bought or polluted with short term investors or something, because they used to be great and highly respected. The LP12 was the ultimate table. 

Now nobody in metropolitan Philadelphia sells their equipment. Hard to beleive....

I have a P8 and don't know the 1200G. The arm on the P8 (RB880) was a dramatically noticeable improvement over the arm on my P5 (RB 700) and I upgraded that before getting the P8, so I was able to see where the audible improvement was, and that's all that matters. The arm made a bigger difference than the table. That is no disrespect to the new design of the table, based on the "cost no object ultimate Rega table" Naiad, but Rega tables are quiet, and accurate with their PSUs. I don't regret getting the table because there are a couple nice new features I like, but I would have been 97%+ where I am purely from a sound standpoint from where I am today. Is it worth the extra I paid less what I got for the remnants of my P5 of about $1300 - hard to say, but I do like the design and the dustcover and the power connection to the PSU from the table. Some improvements are listed so it can be cost justified but may not be detectable to the trained ear, only to the most critical listener.

I would love to test the new arm on the P10 (RB 3000) at some point, but right now, I would never hear the end of it from my wife if I bought that after I recently got a phono stage with upgraded power supply and speakers in the past 4 months.

Is the P10 better than the 1200G?

Questions, questions...

Of course NOT, it’s not better.
Only in someone’s imagination.

"G" is $4k reference Direct Drive from Technics with the same coreless DD motor as in the SP-10R (their top of the line).

"G" has an improved tonearm, better than $1700 "GR" version.

For the most critical listeners tonearm can be replaced with something very special and Ultra High-End like Reed, custom metal armboard is what you need to do so.

you can check all new SL1200 series here

@chakster 

Yeah we get it!!!  Seriously we do! DD and Technics are the end all! They are the only TTs to be considered and all else are to be banished to to dust bin!
We have heard you loud and clear and get your message!!!
Please post up the rest of your system so I can tell you how you have made bad choices! And I will!!!
I will be the first on this thread to tell you that as I have said before you are telling half truths, so you know what the other half is right?
And please make sure that you post up right here on this thread the rest of your system! I’m waiting!

I agree with most on the thread suggesting to go with a TT. My advice would be to try and always think what you're wanting and if a little patience and increased budget would put you in a better position. In other words. For example, some have mentioned the Prime Scout which is a good table but does have it's own share of drawbacks. Really give some consideration to the technology of whatever you choose to go with and what upgrades it allows that are important to you. As a Prime owner myself I found that tonearm upgrade was important to me. Which VPI states is not possible with the Prime or Prime Scout. Had I realized that I might not have purchased a Prime. So again really think about where your hifi journey is going before purchase. But again, I think TT is the best choice.

aj523  Nice choice! You are going to love it!  I was simply amazed at what the Planar 10 with the RB3000 tonearm did for my vinyl playback.

Did I mention before, I sold off my higher-end Micro Seiki Direct Drive turntable with a highly respected Micro Seiki tonearm and changed to the belt drive Rega Planar 10.  I had belt drive turntables in my earlier years of hi-fi systems.  Then I went to the Micro Seiki direct drive, and now I am back to a belt drive turntable.  No complaints, I got a better sounding deck.

@mammothguy54

Good timing. Just arrived today and the whole package from the ceramic platter to the absolutely massive separate power supply to the cabling to the tone arm, is several grade up from the P8. I only listened to one record, the one i know the best, Come Away with Me, Norah Jones and its a dramatically lower noise floor. She never sounded so intimate.. Out to eat now, but more later.

@aj523   May I add some information for you.  The surface that you place the Planar 10 on will have a substantial influence on the sonic performance.  If you read the review by Michael Fremer you should note that he stated something very similar.  I can tell you from my experience the following.  I first had the TT on a solid wood surface, fairly thick and relatively dead.  Certainly a respectable platform surface.  Thinking this through, and doing some research, I concluded with two options.  Option #1 was to simply replace the santoprene rubber feet with the Rega optional solid aluminum feet (cone shaped).  They are only $80 retail so that's a very simple and low cost upgrade.  Option #2, and the one that I  chose, was to buy an entirely new platform and vibration control system.  I opted for the Symposium Acoustics, model Segue ISO.  That brand makes fabulous platforms and system racks and this particular model was developed with turntables in mind.  I also added the Symposium Acoustics Rollerblock Jr + isolation and vibration control devices (the + denotes the upgraded tungsten carbide balls).  That brand (I believe) invented the rollerblock category and offers an assortment of devices.  The santoprene feet on the TT can easily be removed via a screwdriver directly through the bottom of the feet.  This leaves a solid metal ring mounted firmly to the bottom of the plinth that, coincidentally, is nearly identical in diameter to the Rollerblock Jr devices.  The Rollerblock Jr and the Segue ISO work perfectly together to isolate and mechanically drain all micro-vibration from the turntable.  I believed there would be a difference, but I had no idea just how profound it actually was.  Soundstage became wider and deeper, midrange became slightly more neutral and definitely more airy, and most impressively was the impact and definition in the bass region.  Repetitive kick drums, for example, were more individual and precise than I had ever heard on my system.  I suggest that you live with your new joy for some time and get a good feel for it.  When ready, step up to the Symposium system and you will be greatly rewarded.  Considering the price of your new TT and cartridge, and probably your system, it's a modest financial investment into superior sound quality.  Full retail on the two models is between $550 and $650, depending on which size platform you choose.  Note: I chose the 19" X 18" so the package retail price was $650, but I did secure a 15% discount.  I can't say enough about how good the sonic improvement is and am now in the process of adding more isolation and vibration drainage control for every component in my system.  Enjoy the music.  Sorry if this was a bit long🎶

TT is on a flat stone slab.  Perfectly level with meter.

Thanks for the tips and I will certainly look into it. I was trying not to do all these audiophile type improvements like cables. Are you using the stock cable for the power supply?  I always get upgraditis on that. 

I  started looking at after market mats and so confusing,  I called Rega UK this morning and the tech guy told me under no circumstances should I swap out the mat that's made specifically for the P10's ceramic platter. So glad i did that.  Maybe I'll ask Rega tomorrow about replacing the stock cord. 

Congrats AJ and Mammoth Guy for joining the Rega club! I would love to try the RB3000 but it isn't being sold separately at the moment and the Rega dealer who let me buy the RB880 separately before it was available as a stand alone purchase, hasn't even received a P10 yet, so you beat him to the punch. Now you have no where to go if you want to upgrade your table in the future you're at the pinnacle....maybe cartridge or phono stage?

AJ - I've never been a real tweaker and don't get sucked in by big expensive cable upgrades and other nonsense. Rega designs their tables not to be tinkered with. I guess if you have isolation problems, you should try to remediate them, but the rubber feet were put on the table for a reason. On the P8, you can't replace the power cord from the PSU to the TT as it is hard wired into the table. Same for the tt interconnecting cables. You'd have to completely rewire the whole arm (which Rega just redesigned, so I'd leave it alone). Mats are very important, and Rega put a lot of thought into it - so trust them. I don't know who you are talking to at Rega, but the sales guys at the US distributor don't know much. If you talk to their tech guys who fix them (can't see that happening except for abuse), they will give you the real deal about what you can do to improve the sound (and what won't). They are very nice, and not super serious. They know where Rega cuts corners and aren't hesitant to relay that information. The point of this pursuit is to enjoy the music. 

I know sometimes that is tough as we all get obsessed by it at times, but if you read Van den hul's FAQ on their website, it talks about a lot of these things and has plenty of humorous insertions to keep you alert if you choose to read it. They are about the most serious engineers out there and they don't want anyone to lose sleep over an enjoyable avocation. Here is the link: https://www.vandenhul.com/faq-cables-and-phono/. Happy reading - the hifi tips white paper is interesting, the others can get a bit technical, but still worthwhile. After reading it, you'll never move a cable again.

@264win

Please post up the rest of your system so I can tell you how you have made bad choices! And I will!!!I will be the first on this thread to tell you that as I have said before you are telling half truths, so you know what the other half is right? And please make sure that you post up right here on this thread the rest of your system! I’m waiting!

Yeah, tell me where i’m wrong and why anyone need a Belt-Drive turntable like Rega / Pro-Ject and all that ... if DD are cheaper and better? My argument is logical (price/performance and usability), what is yours ? I prefer vintage top of the line DD turntables to new Technics, but i do not recommend what i use to people just because i use it, so new Technics is always better than Rega and Pro Jects turntables (in my opinion). Now you tell me ...


This what i have if you wish to see it like that:

*Turntables: Luxman PD-444, Denon DP80, Victor TT-101 ...

*Tonearms: Reed 3p "12 Cocobolo, Fidelity Research FR-64fx with n60, Fidelity-Research FR-64s with b60, Lustre GST-801, Technics EPA-100 mkII, Denon DA-401, IKEDA IT-345

*Mats: Micro Seiki CU-180, SAEC SS-300, The Mat (Sakura systems).
Clamps and record weight: Micro Seiki ST-20, Noritake.

*Cartridges LOMC: FR-7fz, IKEDA9c III, Miyabi Standard, Victor MC-L10, Argent MC100, Grace Asakura ONE, Dynavector KARAT 17d2 mkII, Ortofon MC2000... and many more.

*Cartridges MM/MI: AT-ML180 OCC, AT-ML170, Grace F14 and Grace LEVEL II (all models), Stanton CS100 WOS, Pickering (all top models), Pioneer PC-1000 mkII, Grado XTZ, Technics p100 c mk4 ... and many more.

*Phono stages: Gold Note PH-10 with PSU-10, WLM Phonata Reference, JLTi ...

*SUTs and Headamps: ZYX CPP-1, Luxman 8020, 8025, 8030 (toroidal silver suts) ...

*Preamp: Pass Labs Aleph L (passive/active model), First Watt B1 (passive).

*Power Amps: Fisrst Watt F2J (current source amp for full range speakers), Yamamoto A-08s with NOS 45 tubes.

Speakers: Zu Audio DRUID (upgraded to mk5) with full range drivers (101db).

*Cables: Stereovox Colibri, Stereolab Matser Reference, Stereovox Firebird, Signal Cable Silver Resolution, Zu Audio Mission mk3 ...

*Connectors: WBT Nextgen, Xhadow RCA, KLE ...

aj523,

"...I was trying not to do all these audiophile type improvements like cables. Are you using the stock cable for the power supply? I always get upgraditis on that.

I started looking at after market mats and so confusing, I called Rega UK this morning and the tech guy told me under no circumstances should I swap out the mat that’s made specifically for the P10’s ceramic platter. So glad i did that. Maybe I’ll ask Rega tomorrow about replacing the stock cord."


I’m sorry but reading that made me feel a little sad. Please tell us you’re joking.

Or else I’m puzzled why you feel that you can get a better result than Rega themselves can after over 40 years of R&D.

The P10 is currently the end result of all of that research and work.

You seem to be highlighting many of the pitfalls that I myself encountered in my audiophile journey.

If you enjoy this sort of thing, fair enough, but I would rather just enjoy the music and leave the R&D to those far better qualified and with far more advanced resources than I could ever have.

Nowadays if I wanted a record player I would look no further than the already technically excellent Technics SL12GR for exactly those reasons.

I’m guessing that the OP too decided to cut this Gordian knot when he made his decision to buy the Marantz TT-15S1.

When someone must change almost everything on a turntable that came as "the end of research" it is pretty funny. 99% of the turntable threads on audiogon are about those rega and pro-ject and almost always there is a problem with something or user must upgrade everything step by step (or can't adjust something) to use a brand new turntable he bought from the dealer. Is it a game or something?  

@cd318 and the @chakster
Sorry no idea what you are talking about. Because I asked about upgrading a stock cable that means I’m trying to change everything on this incredible machine?

Guess what? You can’t tweak the hell out of a Rega and that’s what makes it so special unlike other DD and other designs. Its not meant to be upgraded so not sure what threads you are talking about where people are trying to upgrade everything. 

Rega isn’t going to put a $300 power cord on their table, they use a basic power cable that they didn’t design and its the law of diminishing returns....but that doesn’t mean its necessarily a complete waste. I was just asking anyway. Jesus.  So glad i didn't go with a Technic or other DD design. They are ugly too.

@chakster Haven't I read you post about upgrading feet on the Technics turntables? 

It's one of the things I've done to my SL 1200 MK2.  It came with the KAB RCA plate when I bought it.  I've added a Funk Achromat and the fluid damper and will be putting some Fo.Q tape on the tonearm.  All relatively inexpensive upgrades that have brought it up to a nice level.  It is fun to make those little tweaks and see how it changes the sound (or not) and doesn't have to cost a lot.

Mike Lavigne is right the Rega pro package is a good choice if you have the budget.I fell in love with vynil, my beloved music hall tt 5 series is acting up its 20 yrs old, I retired it...                           I notice the SME products are state of the art , I called acoustic sounds , spoke to NAte , He installed the ML Hana...for me..it’s not cheap , but you will have a tt of your dream if you are not Mike L...Iam extremely happy.   

Only problem if you buy expensive tt, you will need a very good phono pre, sometimes.I paired this SME to Icon ps3 phono pre...