Hey Chakster - you may be correct about the speed of belt drive tables in general if their power supplies are not great, but on all Rega's mid tables and above, the speed is fine with external PSUs. I have an app that measures it - right on the money for 33 1/3 and 45 rpm speeds.
We're reading about speed stability issues here on audiogon very often, also about grounding issues and many other issues with belt drive turntable at that cost. How often are you gonna change the belt to make sure your speed is stable over the years? This is a weak part of belt drives too. Another weak part is very low torque. |
@aj523 Apparently you know nothing about DJing history, back in the days Radio Broadcast and Discotheques were equipped with serious systems (speakers, turntables and stuff) brands like Technics, Victor, Denon, EMT and even Garrard created some of the best studio turntables ever. Many cartridge manufacturers also oriented on professional market (Stanton, Grace, Denon ... ) in the 70’s. In Japan you can visit a lot of bars with Pioneer TAD speakers or Altec, JBL 4350... and tons of vintage equipment from that era for playing records and create an atmosphere. Professional format was Vinyl and R2R. It was analog era and i think innovative design from turntable manufacturers was made for (and tested by) industry professionals first, then adopted for rich music lovers.
Same with recording studios, pressing plants ... it is all professional field, not home audio. Ortofon was manufacturing cutting styli, Technics was manufacturing motors for Neumann cutting lathe. Victor also made a lot for professionals. Denon 107 MM and later 103 MC originally designed for radio broadcast at NHK in Japan.
This is all history, Technics should not hesitate to mention that SL1200 mk7 or even GR or even GAE cab be easily used by professional DJs/Clubs if they have funds to buy them.
The problem is that DJ industry is no longer about high fidelity, it is an entertainment, most of the modern analog equipment for DJs is dirt cheap crap, but everyone can buy it and use it and we have a lot of very bad djs with awful taste in music.
A cell phone in the beginning was very exotic device for rich people only, now every teenager have a cell phone and it’s a micro computer in his pocket. Technologies goes masses. Digital replaced analog even in professional field (radiostations, studios, clubs).
Now an expensive analog gear is for audiophiles, fanatics. but the majority of them are all digital already.
But we have analog audiophiles and we have analog DJs, those people prefer analog format (Vinyl Records, R2R... ). Many studios are still analog and many musicians recorded in analog only.
If Technics has improved their iconic turntables to an audiophile level it is great ! But visually it is almost the same iconic DJ turntable like older SL1200mkII, even more powerful motor, 78rpm included for some models, pitch control and high torque are still there. So why not mention that every professional DJ can use it (or every audiophile can be a home deejay:)) ?
All that speech about Technics (DJ turntable or Audiophile turntable) is about an image and reputation. It’s like a Heavy Metalist in leather jacket going to the stylish Mod Club. He may shock someone, because it’s two different cultural group of music lovers, but they are all humans.
If i will tell you that before Technics many Deejays have been using Thorens TD125 belt drive and Garrard 301 idler drive, do you think it can effect somehow the quality of those classic turntables that now mainly used by audiophiles (and not by DJs anymore).
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There is an app (RPM) where you can test the rpms on your table. Mine is at 33.26 and 44.9 respectively, the slightly slower rotation due to the weight of my iPhone on the platter versus weight of a record I am sure. You know the physics fact that measuring anything reduces it’s speed if some (even minuscule) weight is added to it. Even with that , it’s off by about .2%. Exactly the same at both speeds.
.... Give it a try! You might see the light like I did 20 years ago. @sokogear No, thanks. I don’t think i need a Rega belt drive (or any belt drive) anywhere near my collection of the best Direct Drive turntables. 1) This is my over 40 y.o. Victor TT-101 with Coreless Direct Drive motor and the rotation is spot on. You can read more about this TT-101 here: "If the TT-101 series is almost completely unknown outside Japan and Germany, it is nevertheless one of the best LP record player system ever made.... The Double Bi-Directional Servo, as its name suggests, adds to a conventional FG Servo a second quartz-lock servo section loop outside of the drive itself. Double phase comparison offers negligible drift and no fluctuation under heavy load conditions. This precision also allows a unique feature : the control of the pitch withn ±6Hz around the A fundamental (440Hz) without switching off the Quartz locking ! The motor itself is a coreless DC with 180 slots where the servo is applied on both positive and negative areas to avoid speed overshooting when started or when correcting speed. It was mostly Victor’s professional LP players that were widely accepted in the Japanese broadcasting studios with big guns like the JL-B1000P, the original Victor professional record player the TT-101 series and later tt-801 came from." 2) Luxman PD-444 is my everyday turntable and i love it, another Direct Drive designed for use with two tonearms and it’s super easy to swap tonearms quickly without messing around with wooden armboards like on many other turntables. I even bought two PD-444 and using them with 4 tonearms. More about this wonderful direct drive is here. 3) Yet another great DD in my system is Denon DP-80 and this is the best value on the market today, absolutely amazing turntable. More information HERE. 4) I already mentioned my SP-10 mkII i’ve been using for a long time, i sold it when i bought Luxman PD-444 and i like my LUX even better. Searching for rare cartridges and studying this subject i need many tonearms to match carts very well and to compare them. I am not interested in any tuntable with one fixed tonearm, because i change tonearms often (all my tonearms are different size from "9 to "12 inch). The most versatile turntable is Luxman PD-444 Direct Drive (by the way Luxman made a Belt Drive version with vacuum pump too, it was PD-555). Both turntables designed by Micro Seiki for Luxman. I have no idea why audiophiles older than me never tried some of the best Direct Drive turntables and always refer to the modern mainstream belt drives ? I think it is a lack of experience, because 80% of the "information" about DD turntables coming from a Belt Drive owners is fake news. We have different preferences and that’s fine, but people comparing apples to oranges, each time i read about DD turntable from a Belt Drive owners they’re referring to some cheap entry level Direct Drives they tried 20-40 years ago. This is weird. P.S. The best answer to OP question is vintage direct drive of the highest quality (my personal preferences as you can see) or brand new Technics because i don't know anything else (at the same price or even twice as much) that can compete with new Technics reference models. |
If you have Technics dealer make sure to check this turntable at some physical store, some people just don't understand what it is looking at the pictures online. You have to touch it, press start and stop button, put the needle of the record, adjust the tonearm ... and you will understand why this turntable is so good. Technics SL1200GR (in silver or black) is what you can buy quickly and easily. Ortofon M2 Red is an awful cartridge, it's entry level, forget about it. On Technics tonearm you could use many mid compliance MC or MM or MI, you can also use high-ish compliance cartridges (MM/MI) and if you will mount something like Victor X-1IIe you will be blown away, i'be been using this vintage MM on my Technics EPA-100 tonearm and it was shockingly good compared to many cartridges. Audio-Technica cartridges like AT-ML170 is amazing, actually many AT cartridges are great. I'm huge fan of Stanton and Pickering top of the line models like SC100WOS, XSV/4000, 5000, 7500.... stunning for Technics tonearm. Also Grace LEVEL II Ruby |
But what ever cartridge you buy the ultimate sound you are able to get out of it depends on the tonearm and its support or turntable . Best sound quality for cartridges are in the moving coil camp which normally are low compliance so if you go with moving coil you would need a at least a medium mass tonearm and a high mass tonearm as best option .
Not every Moving Coil cartridge is low compliance, Dynavector KARAT series are not low in compliance. Most of the modern MC are mid compliance. There are even high compliance MC cartridges from the past like the Ortofon MC2000. Also not every MM or MI are high compliance, they are mid compliance, some modern like Nagaoka are even low compliance. Vintage high compliance cartridges from the 70s are still the best and bests many modern MC. So mid mass tonearm and mid compliance cartridges is mainly what we have today on the market. |
So many reasonable opinions and suggestions here. But I’m going to be a contrarian. I owned a ProJect Debut Carbon DC for a few months, and...sorry, despite advice from well-informed friends, despite all the rave reviews, I HATED it. First of all, it made a mechanical hum that was infuriating, especially once I found out why. The internet will tell you, because many people have had this problem. The motor is isolated from the plinth and the platter by a rubber assembly that lets it "float"--except that the tension from the drive belt bends the capstan, in its floating mount, toward the platter, which apparently throws the speed off. So, to compensate for this, ProJect anchored the motor to the plinth with three screws and rubber washers. Of course, that "solution" simply negates the vibration isolation of the original design! I tried loosening the screws, removing them entirely, using different washers...I only got different hum frequencies and intensities.
Reading this i think people who recommend such belt drive turntables are masochists or really know nothing about turntables. There are excellent vintage Direct Drive turntables on the market that works for 50 years without any single problem (Denon DP-80 is one of them, really the best value on the market today). We have new direct drive from Technics that will work for another 50 years without service. Belt Drive is inferior technology and most of the relatively cheap Belt Drive turntables are toys, some others are overpriced. I’ve been posting about it before but i want to remind that Neumann Lathe machine operates with Direct Drive Technics SP02 motor. Every record pressing production starts from this Neumann with Technics motor. And the new motor from Technics now is the best you can buy. They gave their customers so many options to buy different models with amazing Direct Drive motor, starts from $1700 for SL1200GR and going higher and better in every next model. People still talking about some cheap belt drives wrapped in some fancy looking materials to mess around with all that masochists rituals instead of buying a proper turntable that work forever and cost only $1700 (minimum). |
I’ve noticed that questions about turntable upgrade on this forum coming from people who own those Rega, Pro-Ject and related belt drive turntables, we have over 50 posts about it, almost even week a new post (and same turntables) over and over again. I can’t remember posts/threads from the new Technics (GR or G) turntable owners who are not happy about this Direct Drive and willing to upgrade. I do remember only optional (very expensive) tonearm upgrades for this deck. When people invest in Tri-Planar tonearm for their Technics SL1200G i think this is a proof how how this turntable/drive really is. But i can’t remember anyone ever posted something like "I bought this Technics SL1200G and i don’t like it". I can’t remember anyone ever mentioned any technical issue with this Japanese made Direct Drive. But i read about technical issues with Rega and Pro-Ject every week on audiogon. Some people just don’t want to learn. Those Rega, Pro-Ject and all these brands simply can’t make anything even close to the Japanese high-end Direct Drive. And if we remember more great products from Technics it will be hard to find any better tonearm than EPA-100 under $1500 or EPA-100 mkII under $4000. And those older DD from Technics like SP-10 mkII (under $1500) or SP-10 mkIII (under $7000) are ultimate. Now new SP10R replaced them all. Stock tonearm on $1700 Technics SL1200GR is fine for what it worth. I know for sure than none of those Belt Drive (Rega, Pro-Ject and related) owner never ever touched those Technics DD turntables (old or new). Technics is only one brand from a bunch of amazing Japanese brands like Denon, Pioneer, Micro Seiki, Victor, Kenwood, Luxman ... All made superb direct drive turntables in the past, some still making them, some are gone. |
Please...some of the most expensive turntables in the world are uhm...belt driven This is pointless argument. We’re talking about turntables with stable rotation and they are Direct Drive, no one using belt drive motor to cut lacquer (acetate) because you don’t want variable pitch on your record. Records are made on Direct Drive (Neumann Lathe to cut lacquer disc). Think about it. Coreless Direct Drive motor is the most stable motor in the world, before new Technics there was JVC, Yamaha .... coreless DD motors.
Pro-ject’s higher end turntables are very nice "belt drive" tt’s. If u want a DJ TT then get the technics...at best its ugly...
This is another pointless argument because the best Direct Drive turntables are NOT for DJs if you don’t know yet, DJs definitely adopted them because of the powerful motor and stable rotation. This is my ex Technics, do you think it’s a DJ turntable with Reed 3p "12 inch tonearm ? Or it looks ugly ? Let me show you some and if the price is the argument for you then you will be shocked for how much this Denon Direct Drive goes for nowadays. Pro-Ject is a joke like many audio components designed in the digital world of plastic toys. In this world turntables are not designed to last forever like it used to be in the 80’s. And the buyers know nothing about turntables today. |
chakster,
"Pro-Ject is a joke like many audio components designed in the digital world of plastic toys."
That's a little harsh, don't you think? Can't help it. It's my opinion. All those decks replaced some nice machines from the past and they are way different in many aspects. I much prefer old design, big and heavy direct drive turntable, in my opinion something wrong with modern designers of the turntables. My favorite is vintage Luxman PD-444 (made by Micro Seiki).
I once helped a friend set up his Debut Carbon (Ortofon blue/ acrilyc platter) and it's an excellent deck. With the right record you'd never guess the total price. Just one level below the very best.
I did the same, mounted Stanton 881s on Pro-Ject instead or stock ortofom 2M and a friend was blown away. After a few years he's thinking about proper vintage direct drive instead that Pro-Ject. Yes, the Debut Carbon won't match the Technics for specs (but nothing else anywhere near the price will either) but it would still make an excellent first turntable for anyone (as would the Fluance, Rega or Audio Technica decks). It's impossible with Belt Drive like that to compete with Technics DD motor, now way. But on the other hand i believe we're hearing a cartridge first. Technics is iconic turntable, the SL series is not the best, the SP series is the best. Wasn't the 1200G frighteningly close in performance to Michael Fremer's Continuum Caliburn deck?
Everyone can find it on youtube |
Anyway I’m sure the Technics are great but I’m sure there are BD’s in their price range that some listeners would prefer the sound of... You could say that when you will be able to compare them side by side with the same cartridge in the same system. No, you will not find equal sounding BD at the same price range that new Technics GR for example ($1700, Technics keeping the price very low), or equal to any of the vintage turntables i have mentioned in the earlier posts, simply because we’re living in the digital era and comparing almost any new BD turntable to the Japanese DD from the golden age (used) is strange. Prices for new BD always higher but the build quality is not higher (this is marketing) and tonearms on them always inferior in comparison to the best Japanese DD from the 80’s. Specific models like SP-10mkII, DP-80 are cheaper and better turntables. Same about Japanese vintage tonearms (always cheaper and better). I rate some vintage DD higher than new Technics. Also you can’t change tonearm on most of those Belt Drive turntables, manufacturer want you to stay with their arm (which is often not adjustable for some other better cartridges). This is definitely Rega strategy. |
The engineers have told me that it really depends how much you want to spend. To get a quality direct drive that limits vibration due to the motor being directly underneath, you need to spend at least $3k, if not $5k. Originally I was way under that, under $2k and was told by everyone ( and i mean the real scientists and dealers that carry both), hands down belt drive over direct drive at that price point. It’s worth revisiting for me now... Did your scientists ever heard about Technics SP-10mkII, Denon DP-80, Victor TT-101 turntables ? They are all under $1500 and all of them have superb Direct Drive motors, different but all good. They are all in best buy category today. Try to find anything better than Denon DP-80 for the price you can get it for (in mint condition), simply amazing. For higher price we could add Kenwood L07D, Luxman PD444, Pioneer P3 or P10, Technics SP-10 mk3 ... When someone telling us you have to spend at least .... i wish to know what does that mean ? You can spend much more on the worst turntables ever if you don’t know where to find and what to find. The best Direct Drive are from Japan and from the 80’s. Prices on used market is way different than retail prices on the shops, it’s another world, parallel reality. Someone will tell you you have to spend $1000 for phono cable or interconnect, but you can buy same cable used for $300 online. Don’t forget there is a Direct Drive motor under the Neumann cutting Lathe. They cut on Direct Drive. This is where your record get started, and you know somehow there is nothing bad coming from the motor under the platter to the cutter stylus and the lacquer cut on constant speed. Every lacquer disc must be approved by the producer/musician before the label will send the master disc to the pressing plant, then there will be a test press for final approval. Direct Drive is reference technology, all those Direct CUT made using direct drive motor. This happens when signal from the mics goes throught the mixing console to the cutterheard direct on disc. There is a Direct Drive motor under that disc. We can learn more about Direct Drive motors made for Cutting Lathe, the Technics SP-02 is only one of them. P.S. thanks to jpjones for posting those pages in his blog. |
@264win Please post up the rest of your system so I can tell you how you have made bad choices! And I will!!!I will be the first on this thread to tell you that as I have said before you are telling half truths, so you know what the other half is right? And please make sure that you post up right here on this thread the rest of your system! I’m waiting! Yeah, tell me where i’m wrong and why anyone need a Belt-Drive turntable like Rega / Pro-Ject and all that ... if DD are cheaper and better? My argument is logical (price/performance and usability), what is yours ? I prefer vintage top of the line DD turntables to new Technics, but i do not recommend what i use to people just because i use it, so new Technics is always better than Rega and Pro Jects turntables (in my opinion). Now you tell me ... This what i have if you wish to see it like that: *Turntables: Luxman PD-444, Denon DP80, Victor TT-101 ... *Tonearms: Reed 3p "12 Cocobolo, Fidelity Research FR-64fx with n60, Fidelity-Research FR-64s with b60, Lustre GST-801, Technics EPA-100 mkII, Denon DA-401, IKEDA IT-345 *Mats: Micro Seiki CU-180, SAEC SS-300, The Mat (Sakura systems). Clamps and record weight: Micro Seiki ST-20, Noritake. *Cartridges LOMC: FR-7fz, IKEDA9c III, Miyabi Standard, Victor MC-L10, Argent MC100, Grace Asakura ONE, Dynavector KARAT 17d2 mkII, Ortofon MC2000... and many more. *Cartridges MM/MI: AT-ML180 OCC, AT-ML170, Grace F14 and Grace LEVEL II (all models), Stanton CS100 WOS, Pickering (all top models), Pioneer PC-1000 mkII, Grado XTZ, Technics p100 c mk4 ... and many more. *Phono stages: Gold Note PH-10 with PSU-10, WLM Phonata Reference, JLTi ... *SUTs and Headamps: ZYX CPP-1, Luxman 8020, 8025, 8030 (toroidal silver suts) ... *Preamp: Pass Labs Aleph L (passive/active model), First Watt B1 (passive). *Power Amps: Fisrst Watt F2J (current source amp for full range speakers), Yamamoto A-08s with NOS 45 tubes. Speakers: Zu Audio DRUID (upgraded to mk5) with full range drivers (101db). *Cables: Stereovox Colibri, Stereolab Matser Reference, Stereovox Firebird, Signal Cable Silver Resolution, Zu Audio Mission mk3 ... *Connectors: WBT Nextgen, Xhadow RCA, KLE ... |
Is the P10 better than the 1200G?
Questions, questions... Of course NOT, it’s not better. Only in someone’s imagination. "G" is $4k reference Direct Drive from Technics with the same coreless DD motor as in the SP-10R (their top of the line). "G" has an improved tonearm, better than $1700 "GR" version. For the most critical listeners tonearm can be replaced with something very special and Ultra High-End like Reed, custom metal armboard is what you need to do so. you can check all new SL1200 series here |
When someone must change almost everything on a turntable that came as "the end of research" it is pretty funny. 99% of the turntable threads on audiogon are about those rega and pro-ject and almost always there is a problem with something or user must upgrade everything step by step (or can't adjust something) to use a brand new turntable he bought from the dealer. Is it a game or something? |
@aj523
Meanwhile all I hear about with other TTs like Technic (which they used to sell at Toys R Us when I was a kid) is how people tweak the hell out of them and I wonder if those tweaks really work then why doesnt the manufacturer build them in?
This is the best explanation that you have no idea what you're talking about, because a brand new Technics with Coreless DD motor is not what was in the shops near your kinder garden back in the day. As always you (just like some other people) mixed up together and OLD and NEW, expecting OLD and NEW is the same if there is a Technics logo on it. Regarding an old Technics that is still the best even today i can only recall two models SP-10mkII with EPA-100 tonearm, and SP-10mk3 with EPA-100 mk2 tonearm, nothing else. Fully adjustable (with dynamic damping) Technics EPA-100 and EPA-100 mk2 are two amazing tonearms from the past that can beat almost everything today! The whole Technics tooling was completely rebuild after they went out of business for a long time, they made a return only few years ago with a brand new line of High-End turntables. One of the reason is 100 Anniversary date. Technics brought SP-10R on the market and this is a killer reference class high-end turntable. Do you understand the difference between belt-drive Technics and direct-drive Technics? Technics also made belt-drive turntables in the past, but after a years of research they only keep making Direct Drive. Have you ever seen how many different models Technics made in the past? Now forget all that and read about SP-10R and it's budget version with the same motor SL1200G (and cheaper model is SL1200GR). Rega is just a tiny company compared to the Matsushita (Technics/Panasonic/National) giant of the industry. The reason why Technics turntable does not cost too much money is because they're making millions of them. These turntables does not require any tweaks at all to remain reference class Direct Drive turntables today. |
@chakster Sorry no idea what you are talking about. Because I asked about upgrading a stock cable that means I’m trying to change everything on this incredible machine?
Guess what? You can’t tweak the hell out of a Rega and that’s what makes it so special unlike other DD and other designs. Its not meant to be upgraded so not sure what threads you are talking about where people are trying to upgrade everything.
Rega isn’t going to put a $300 power cord on their table, they use a basic power cable that they didn’t design and its the law of diminishing returns....but that doesn’t mean its necessarily a complete waste. I was just asking anyway. Jesus. So glad i didn’t go with a Technic or other DD design. They are ugly too. @aj523 I don’t care about power cord for any turntable (always using stock power cable), there is no sound related to the turntable power cord at all, power cord just transfer required voltage to the TT power supply to rotate the platter. Since all my turntables are Direct Drive with stable rotation I don’t believe in this snake oil power cords, fuses and all that expensive modern BS for turntables to suck money from audiof**ls. I have never ever upgraded anything in my Direct Drive turntables, even if they are 30 y.o. i use them as it is, but i do care what i’m buying when it comes to vintage turntables (or anything) - it must be like new and perfectly working. I did not change anything is my Technics SP-10 mkII drive, it was mint condition and after many years of using i sold it as it is (still mint-) to a friend and it’s still properly working without re-capping or anything. Only lubrication of the motor as required by the manufacturer. I did nothing to my pair of reference DD i am using now (Luxman PD-444) in my system. I made (metal) custom racks for each of them. I did not change feet or whatever like electronics, i have never replaced power cord or anything like that. I do change mats and tonearms because this turntable designed for those who use many tonearms. A reference class turntable (in my opinion) must be reference as it is, no tweaks needed at all. @chakster Haven’t I read you post about upgrading feet on the Technics turntables? @big_greg I’ve mentioned Audio-Technica High-End pneumatic insulator designed for all king of components. The weak part of an old Technics Obsidian Plinth (made in the 70’s) can be solved with AT-616 pneumatic insulator. Same about any other very old plinth from the 20th century. I also replaced stock feet on my old pair of Technics from the 90’s when isonoe released direct replacement feet. BUT it is not necessary for a brand new Technics turntables made in 21st century, the stock feet already nice on SL1200GR or G models. And i think any manufacturer today must think about new standards and they have to supply a turntable with very nice stock feet. I would rather design a dedicated (nice and heavy) rack for each turntable. I made a few already. Reading Simone Yorke Blog i can see this dude sells his belt-drive turntables with very nice racks, this is the right concept!
I think the upgrade game is more something Linn does. Their upgrades are numerous to the point that the guy who sold me my Rega told me a guy spent $25K on an LP12.
@sokogear And Linn, yes :)) Chakster: I’ve heard of a couple of the brands you mentioned above in your vast cartridge inventory, and seem to be a cartridge analyst for Absolute Sound, but I was wondering, of the cartridges currently commercially available and in production, what cartridge would you recommend for a Rega P8 (other than Rega’s 2 MC’s) from a value standpoint? @sokogear One modern LOMC cartridge i bought myself after a long time of searching for it (not willing pay retail price) was Miyajima Kansui, but your tonearm probably is not heavy enough for it. I’ve heard good things about Hana, and of course there are the usual suspects of Koetsu, Lyra, Clear Audio, Ortofon, Dynavector, etc. I have a Sutherland Insight phono stage with the Linear Power Supply that has 4-5 adjustable load settings from 100 to 47K ohms.Thanks for your advice. @sokogear For Koetsu you need super heavy tonearm (just like for Miyajima Kansui). So your Rega tonearm is not good for Low Compliance cartridges. I really enjoyed Dynavector cartridges, in KARAT series the latest i have is 17DS2 mkII. Looking at Dynavector website now i can see the latest is KARAT 17DX. Lyra, Clear Audio (just like Dynavector Te-Kaitora model) are all have this long unprotected cantilever and in my opinion this is extremely dangerous (very easy to break) design, i would never buy anything like that for practical reason (the price is very high). Personally i would never spend over $2k for any modern High-End cartridge, because there are so many stunning performers even under $1k if you will look for vintage MM/MI or even MC. You should really try some decent MM/MI to break this stereotype forever. In fact an MM/MI can be as good as MC or even better. |
You have to ship it to Van den Hul direct, but make sure to check if he can personally work on your cartridge. If he can personally work on it then this is the best service. You can always ask via VdH distributors. |
if you have a 30 year old Technics, you might indeed have the Toys rUs version ( that was for Sogogear) ! @aj523 Definitely RUS version because I’m in Russia :) My SL1210mkII was $350 in 1995 in local Technics/Panasonic shop, and i was 19 (good times). It’s interesting that you mention cantilever length-that is something VDH talks about extensively in those links I sent out from their Web site. Theirs is extremely short to minimize travel in the rubber base of the cantilever that wears. It makes life between service intervals to 2500-3500 hours instead of normal 1500-2000. They also have a special stylus shaped so it actually goes deeper (like a sharp pencil tip versus a rounder elliptical one) into the groove and produces less residue (called VDH stylus) which also extends the length of service intervals. @sokogear The shortest cantilever i ever tried was IKEDA9c III cantilever-less design :) No cantilever at all, maybe you will like it. Another one is Dynavector KARAT with very short (1.7 mm) Diamond cantilever, here is the interview with its inventor Dr. Tominari (Dynavector Systems). My old Dynavector thread is here. VdH stylus, Fritz Gyger stylus, and Ortofon Replicant stylus... are nearly the same, the difference is who’s got the patent and unique name for it. Garrott problers displayed them well here. Stanton/Pickering invented Stereohedron right after Quadrahedron. But Shibata-San at JVC/Victor who invented and patended Shibata stylus was first. New Miyajima Kansui has Shibata stylus because Miyajima-San love it. BTW, I didn’t think Panasonic (Technics) ever went out of business, just stopped making tables for a while. Interesting.... @sokogear In this thread definitely meant Technics turntables they stopped making for many years, but at that time Panasonic printers and Panasonic electric shavers were available and i bought them (and happy about quality, no upgrades since that time). |
MI is Moving Iron (like all the Grado and Sound Smith) IM is Induced Magnet (like ADC for example) MF is Moving Flux (like Glanz and Astatic) they are all belong to the group of MM/MI Watch SoundSmith lecture, he will explain the most :)) @sokogear |
The right way to compare MC and MM is to buy a turntable with two tonearms and an MM/MC phono stage. If both cartridges carefully selected and matched to the arms then it will be impossible to say which one is better (MM or MC). But most likely MC will cost twice as much that MM. And being cheaper MM has user replaceable stylus (even with exotic cantilever and stylus tip). The situation with MC depends on who will fix the stylus/cantilever when your diamond is worn, after first refurbishing (if it’s not done by manufacturer or original cartridge designer) it can be serious degradation of sound especially for an exotic cartridges when someone will put something else instead of original designers choice. So first retip/refurbishing can ruin the sound of very nice LOMC. It will never happen with MM if the user can change the stylus with the next backup (original) sample. @sokogear did you read this ? |
When people are in the studio, they produce records trying to make a certain sound - not what is played in the studio, but mixed to achieve a certain sound. Right, but Doug Sax is famous for DIRECT CUT (Direct-To-Disk) recording techniques. This is when a signal from the mics going to the mixing console and to the cutter stylus (no reel to reel in between). Audiophiles raving about his Sheffield LAB direct cut albums. His monitoring cartridge was Stanton 881s (not even the best Stanton model, but close to the best models). In that TAS article many engineers claimed than MC has a lot of coloration and not true to the sound. This is an opinion, but an opinion from a very well educated sound engineers and mastering engineers with very good ears. @sokogear It must be a very good MC to be neutral. You should really try some killer MM cartridges, your Acutex can't speak for all MM or MI. |
Some of us like Chakster are trying to save some cash and get as good a sound and value as possible.
@sokogear because i'm buy many of them to compare them in my system when it comes to cartridges the most, also when it comes to turntables. I have tried over 70 great cartridges in the last 7 years i believe (doing that vintage carts research for myself) and it was not an entry level cartridges, it was very hard to find top models from the past (mostly MM, but many LOMC too). I bought too many turntables somehow, way too many for my listening room. Also many phono stages, suts, headamps ... This is madness, but i want to make it rational. It is not about saving as you can see, but when it comes to the price for some new equipment it is simply insane (a cartridge for $5k for example or even higher, a phono stage for $10k, a turntable for $20k ... etc). There are many vintage components in perfect condition that can blown away almost any new even if the price for new one is 10 times higher. And i've seen/heard some very expensive systems that sounds like sh.... This is why the price tag is not the key to a perfect sound. |
@cd318 I watched those videos long time ago, who will buy a $200k turntable? I have no idea who told you this is the best turntable ever made ? Try this or this version. When the difference in sound is very small but the difference in price is very big would you go for the most expensive one? Do you own this turntable or youtube is your reference to compare cartridges and turntables listening to the mp3 file? Only very reach people can buy the most expensive, but the vinyl is not for reach, it’s for everyone. In my country we have people who will buy ONLY the most expensive audio gear and those people know nothing about the sound, there is a business model for such people and we have a lot of companies in High-End world serving those people needs (only the most expensive gear). Desire to have a perfect sound in your house/room has nothing to do with desire to own the most expensive high-end gear. I appreciate the ability to build a decent audio system using reasonably priced components only (but they are still expensive). We must have knowledge and experience to do so, it is an interesting process. |
Chakster - "It is not about saving as you can see, but when it comes to the price for some new equipment it is simply insane (a cartridge for $5k for example or even higher, a phono stage for $10k, a turntable for $20k ... etc)."
As I said it is not about savings, but value. Just being a little nit picky on verbiage, but I think we are saying essentially the same thing.
You must be an active seller on Audiogon with all those cartridges and tables going in and out of your hands.
Yeah, i'm still waiting when I'll be rich, but it never happens because when I sell something I buy something and the rest is for records. |
