Brand new to vinyl: Help!

Best thing is to invest in AC isolation/conditioning. An Equitech balanced power product will put your TT into an entirely different performance level. Address the basics. 

A Atma-Sphere phono stage would be soooo tempting...

Ralph, have you considered offering a stand-alone balanced phono stage? I’d bet you could sell quite a few of them! There are a number of solid state balanced phonos, but no tube (other than the phono stage in your complete pre’s), as far as I know.

I can help too- we produced the world's first balanced line phono preamp.

The advantage is that the interconnect between the arm and cartridge does not contribute or rob anything from the sound of the system, unlike single-ended setups where the interconnect has to be auditioned.

That means that a really expensive cable won't sound any better than a cheap one as long as its wired right. So its worth doing!

thyname,

lewm is dead on. Big improvement in sound quality using a true balanced wiring harness from your cartridge pins to the K-1xe’s phono input. Don’t put it off. I can help you if you PM me.

Dave

Thank you very much @lewm !

Definitely something I plan to do down the road, if I am lucky enough to find someone that understands what you wrote and knows what to do

thyname, A bit of icing is missing from your cake if you are trying to convert the single-ended output of your turntable into balanced mode for your Ayre.  The Ayre phono section will sound best when fed with a true balanced signal. This is not so arcane as it sounds, because all cartridges are inherently balanced devices.  To achieve a single-ended signal from a cartridge, typically the "ground" pin of the cartridge is connected to the shield of a single-ended cable, along with the turntable/tonearm ground connection.  Your hard-wired IC is probably configured this way. A typical single-ended phono stage works fine this way. 

In contrast, a balanced signal consists of two halves, one "plus" and one "minus".  To get the most out of that output with respect to feeding the Ayre, you would want each half of that balanced signal from the cartridge to be carried on a separate conductor where the two conductors are identical.  The typical XLR on a balanced IC carries the plus half on pin2, the minus half on pin3, and the grounds (turntable, tonearm, etc) separately on pin1. Thus, for carrying the phono signal in balanced mode, you want to connect the "ground" pin of the cartridge (which by convention is really the minus half of the signal) to pin3 of an XLR, keeping it separate from TT/tonearm ground (which goes to pin1) and carrying it on its own conductor. The Ayre sounds best this way. (I used to own an Ayre phono stage; I tried it both ways.)  The hard-wired single ended IC on your new TT kind of makes for a problem in achieving that goal.  (There's nothing "wrong" with it, because most phono stages are SE circuits.  You happen to own a rare true balanced phono section.) But meantime, find out if you enjoy vinyl using your new set-up as is, which does sound like a big improvement over the original.  What I am talking about here is, like I said, icing on the cake if you want to go the last mile.  With a little surgery best performed by a knowledgeable tech, you could make the change to optimize the balanced connection, if you perceive you will be moving forward with vinyl.

Any recommendations for a record cleaning machine? I bought one of those brush cleaners from Amazon, but I think I need a more robust one. Thanks

Yes, enjoy and I haven't seen a cartridge yet (or speaker) that didn't improve some when broken in.  

Thanks @jsm71 !

Another update: I had my dealer come over at my house and install the new cartridge - the Ortofon Bronze - yesterday. I just wanted to make sure it was done right, alignment, weight and all - he brought all tools.

While there was a noticeable improvement (better bass and midrange, and slightly less "bright") to the stock Cocept MM cart, it was not eye popping. Still, I am happy I did it, so that I don't have to upgrade anything now for a while.

In terms of the cables, the Clearaudio Concept comes with "captive" interconnects (they cannot be removed from the turntable). I did buy from Audiogon some good quality gold connector adapters (RCA to XLR) for $35 plus $6 shipping.

And yes @jsm71  my phono stage is built in my Ayre pre-amp - K-1xe. It only accepts balanced connectors on its phono stage inputs.

Truth be told, I have made so many changes with my new analog setup now in such a short period of time, that I should really sit down and simply listen to music for a few weeks without any additional tweaks. I have bought quite a few records locally and through Amazon now, so plenty of (familiar) music to listen to.

Thanks everyone for your help!

You can find some stuff on ebay. Some of it looks clunky but should do fine if hooked up right.

I'd try googling that one at any rate.

Thanks @atmasphere 

Any idea where / which I can buy one in US?

Yes, they do. With additional regulation, they can help.

Anyone uses linear power supplies here to power their DC turntables?

@spoutmozert, have you though about getting together or joining the AK meet?

Enjoy that new table! For at least 2 months before you think about changing anything. As you said, it sounds great. Until you know exactly what you wish was different, you won't know which path to take. You may like the Bronze better than the Concept; but a Hana EH or Otofon MC3 (etc.) turbo may blow you away

You can post photos if you like; just start a virtual system.  Go to your member page and you'll readily find the link.  I have my system up, but without pics yet. My entertainment area still isn't finished after 7 years of on-again, off-again construction. Doesn't hurt the sound but looks pretty bad. Nothing I want to show off.

Regardless, keep your eyes peeled here for vinyl toys, too. I've picked up several accessories at very fair prices over the years.  Also some truly excellent vinyl.

@effischer : much appreciate your well-thought reply to me. Thank you!

This kinda fell on my lap. A dealer I know locally, who is also a friend texted me about the unit - clearaudio concept I bought - that a customer just brought this in at the store (authorized clearaudio dealer) as a trade up.

So I went to take a look, and it was indeed in pristine condition, nothing missing, only four months used.

He also helped me with realigning the cart, and other setting I don't know yet.

Needless to say, I got a good price too.

Very interesting advice on selling the Bronze cart! It did cross my mind, but I am very curious to compare the two. I need to thing this over, and possibly take your advice and resist the temptation to try the Bronze.

BTW - I also bought a nice maple wood stand from the same dealer to put it underneath the table. It's a pity I cannot post pics here. Looks great!

Boy, you don't fool around thyname!  Totally different leagues between the Debut and the Concept as you've already discovered.

IMO, the 2M Bronze is much better than the Concept MM.  Not everyone would agree, but that's as may be.  Do you really want to change it out right now?  That's not an easy answer.  It generally takes some time to get everything to equilibrium and properly broken-in; usually ~50 hours of use.  Only then can you identify the synergies and weaknesses in any given rig.

The Concept MM can always be sold later if you aren't satisfied, as could the 2M Bronze.  Depreciation will apply to both, although the 2M can stay in the box for awhile without losing very much.

My suggestion would be to return the 2M and live with the Concept MM for the rest of the year.  Save your money, think about how your system performs and do some A-B comparisons between your digital sources and your analog source.  Try a few "golden oldies" like Getz & Gilberto or Harry James on Sheffield too.  At that point, you might well find that you'll want to make the move to a LOMC instead.  That move most often represents a whole new world of detail, image and dynamics.

Your call either way.  In the meantime, enjoy a very nice vinyl rig.  Happy listening!

Nobody?

Update from OP here:

Long story short: bought a Clearaudio Concept from my local dealer. He gave me a good deal I could not pass up. Just the standard tone arm and standard “concept” cartridge.

Just set it up with my dealer’s help, and it sounds great. No comparison with the Project Debut Carbon DC Esprit which is going back.

To complicate things, I have an Ortofon 2M Bronze coming in the mail, so question becomes: is the Ortofon Bronze better than the standard Concept cartridge, or should I just return it ?

Yes, the IC is rather poor quality.  A good used one should run you under $100.  My SME IV also came with a piece of crap IC for what was once a $3500 arm.

When I was starting out with a high end system back in the 1981, I purchased the Dynavector 10X3, an Ultracraft tone-arm and a VPI 19 (since upgraded to a IV version and used for 78 rpm records).  Sure, my current turntable/arm/cartridge system is $16K, but the old system is still very musical.  I suggest looking for a good condition, used high end table, same for arm and a matching cartridge for that arm (compliance-wise).  A Denon 103 makes an inexpensive but great sounding cartridge to start with on a good used tonearm (or maybe a Rega 3 if compliance is correct).   You should spend about $1000 total to get a set-up to at least meet the CD quality sound and in some ways better it.  Analog is just more cumbersome than digital.  I love both, mostly based on mastering of the recording.   Look for a higher end used deck or stick with the Project. 

Get a better cartridge for sure.  I've used that deck for 2 friends who inherited their father's large record collections but didn't want to spend much on turntable/arms.  After using my recommendations for a better cartridge, they thanked me for the great sound at a bargain price (one got the Ortofon mm Blue, the other a Dynavector 10X5)

That’s not very encouraging @back2vinyl...

I started with a Project Debut a few years ago. One Scout and thousands of dollars latter dedicated to the analog side, on it’s best day it sounds as good as a cd depending on the record. Most new repressing sound like crap.

@spoutmouzert,
There is a group of us that get together a few times a year. You can get info here and if you join you can private message me.

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/ny-blue-mountain-lodge-audio-fest-next-meet-dates-sep...

@thyname, DH Labs is a reputable firm; but the Bl-1 is XLR OR RCA; not RCA to XLR. You could call them to see if they have what you want; but I think the savings would go out the window. You are not just looking for RCA to XLR. The cable must be executed to be balanced, which involves how the ground and shield are attached to the connectors. Dis I say that well, @cleeds ?

@spoutouzert, I am located in Madison, NJ. There are several really good shops in the area that do great turntable work; but it wouldn't be cost effective to have them come to you. If they do it in their shop, the only things you usually have to worry about at home are placement and leveling.
 I'd be happy to discuss it off-line if you can provide contact info. 

Does AG have a messaging function?

I've always wondered what % difference the cartridge makes for the overall sound of the set up.  Does anyone know if there is such a thing as "home set up" i.e someone who comes to your house to set up your turntable and align your cartridge?  I'm located in Northern NJ.  Many thanks.

▲▲▲▲▲▲▲
Oh yes, of course.

No. To preserve a balanced signal, you'll need separate hot and neutral for each channel, and a ground independent of those separate neutrals.

Does such thing exist?

thyname

@2channel8: would this be designed as it should be (XLR male to RCA male and preserve the balanced signal for the Ayre k-1xe)?

http://silversonic.com/products/interconnects/bl-1/

No. To preserve a balanced signal, you'll need separate hot and neutral for each channel, and a ground independent of those separate neutrals.

Set-up is crucial. You seem reluctant to do this yourself, and truthfully, there is a bit of a learning curve, so find someone in your area that can do this for you in your home. You will learn a lot about set-up, and will probably feel more confident doing it yourself in the future. The vinyl world is well worth the effort, but it's not for everybody. Some will considerer the "work" (for lack of a better term) required for proper playback. Set-up, cleaning,handling,storage, etc. etc.etc. Those of us that are primarily into vinyl accept all of this as a part of the intimate relationship with the medium. Good luck, and I hope you don't give up before you realize what good vinyl playback really is.

@2channel8: would this be designed as it should be (XLR male to RCA male and preserve the balanced signal for the Ayre k-1xe)?

http://silversonic.com/products/interconnects/bl-1/

@stringreen  @johnmarzy @2channel8 and @vindanpar : thank you very much.

I will get the Geodisc.

Getting a new cartridge is so difficult for people like me who are not familiar with their brands, etc. A lot of research to do.

Anyone here from DC area?

If you can spend that much money down the road- save for the 4k-use a good chunk of it for a cartridge. I went from a $600 shelter to a Lyra Kleos and wow! You might have enough left over for a decent upgrade to a used turntable with arm from reputable(look at their history) sellers. Make a fair offer, don't lowball and save even more money.

Look at cartridges available on audiogon. You can see a lot of great deals on cartridges from reputable sellers either demos or only with a few hours on them up to 50%off. And read a lot about them, their qualities and what you think will appeal to you. Analytical, warm, etc...Many private sellers have a fair bit of money and get bored quickly. Thank god for that.

Then get a good clean original copy of Graceland and go to town. Great vinyl is full body visceral in an exciting way.

@thyname, I think the first thing that has to be done in order to get meaningful advice is to quantify the problem. How bad is the sound relative to what you are used to? If a LP sounds vastly inferior than a digital representation of the same master tape, then something is wrong with your set up that needs to be addressed before you even begin to consider upgrades.If the differences are more subtle, on the order of what your digital reproduction sounds like now vs how it sounded before some meaningful upgrade, then you can get your turntable set up by an expert at an audio shop for around $150 to make sure you're getting what  you should be. They can also check your RCA to XLR cable to make sure it is designed as it should be. Not all XLR connections are equal; but that a long story. 
If you should need a new cable, this is one you can customize for length that is quite good and a very good value.

https://store.wireworldcable.com/collections/interconnects/products/oasis-7-audio-interconnect-cable?variant=979670263
Best of luck!
Jim

thyname - you are up to the task, if you read paragraph 2 from @effischer:
The simplest solution is a Mobile Fidelity device called a Geo Disc; about $50 from anywhere.  It isn't the most accurate but should be sufficient for what you want to do.  It's a single point protractor with arm pivot point reference and precision molded spindle hole.  It's a fast, easy way to double-check a pre-existing alignment.

I’m using a K1xe pre with a V1xe amp....the sound is fabulous. ....you really need a better cartridge. ..not a blue...... all warts will be exposed. Antiskate is a non issue. Perhaps your turntable could use better alignment, but a meaningful one is in order.  If you live in Arizona (Scottsdale) ...touch base.

Ahhh.... @effischer  much appreciate this write up, but unfortunately I am not up to this task. Maybe I can find someone locally to do this for me

A long reply here, so bear with me.

Alignment info is discussed in quite a few posts here and you can search on the Web for even more.  Even minor misalignment can affect playback markedly.  The 2M Red is comparatively forgiving, but better alignment is better sound regardless.  You may also want some magnification to help.  I use an illuminated bench magnifier with a hand-held magnifying glass; there are other and more user-friendly solutions too.  

The simplest solution is a Mobile Fidelity device called a Geo Disc; about $50 from anywhere.  It isn't the most accurate but should be sufficient for what you want to do.  It's a single point protractor with arm pivot point reference and precision molded spindle hole.  It's a fast, easy way to double-check a pre-existing alignment.

More precise protractors are often 2 point or elaborate fixture systems that can be quite costly.  Here's a free one:  https://522bb370f5443d4fe5b9-f62de27af599bb6703e11b472beadbcc.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/uploaded_file/uplo...  and instructions to use it:  http://www.shure.com/americas/support/find-an-answer/phono-cartridge-alignment-gauge-how-to-use-and-...

Briefly, 2 point systems mean you are trying to make sure the stylus is geometrically aligned at two points on the platter.  Cartridge alignment is a tedious process, so you have to be patient and take your time no matter what method you use.

For both single point and dual point, you have to start with making sure the vertical tracking force (VTF) is correctly set.  That's 1.8 grams for the 2M series and you'll need a scale to confirm.  If you don't have one, you can get one from Needle Doctor or any number of other places.  The catch is you'll have to make sure the balance point of the scale is near to equal with where the surface of the record would be during playback.  You may need to remove any table mat you may have to accomplish this. The reason behind this is so that the reference condition of adjustment as nearly matches the application condition of playback as possible.

To get an idea where that is, cue the stylus down on a record and look at the height of the contact point relative to the table platter surface edge-on.  The arm wand should also be roughly parallel to the record surface.  Shut the table down, turn the anti-skate to zero, place the scale on the platter, cue the stylus down on it and take another edge-on look.  The arm wand needs to be as nearly parallel as possible to the platter surface when you measure the 1.8 grams on the scale.  There are lots and lots of little nuances folks obsess on here, but you shouldn't.  Your table can't readily be made to address them so fuggedaboudit.

At this stage, you can go ahead and check the alignment.  It will either be right or it won't and you should see it pretty clearly.  Pull out your jeweler's screwdriver and your patience and start working on the cartridge position until you get the stylus alignment right.  I can't emphasize strongly enough:  Do not stress out on this.  If you get tired, have a drink.  If you try again and get tired again, go to bed and tackle it another day.  Relaxed patience is the mind-set you want.

The final stages are checking VTF again and resetting anti-skate to the correct value VTF and anti-skate are covered in your table manual.  Note that anti-skate is another topic of much discussion here - fuggedaboudit too for now.   Last, cue up a listening session to see how it all worked.    If you did it right, you should hear a clear improvement.

The whole alignment thing is why Pro-Ject and others offer tables with pre-installed carts.  Not many folks are willing and/or able to deal with it. For those who are, a whole new world of sonic excellence is often revealed.  It's also where better tables, arms and carts make night-and-day differences.  It's definitely paid off for me, anyway.

Have fun!

St. Paul, Minnesota

Darn @atmasphere  you're an Audiogon member before I was born.

Where are you located? 

atmasphere,

Great advice as usual !  Thanks 

I am thinking I should be able to save about $2,000 to $4,000 for a good turntable in about six months.

@thyname If that is the case, I recommend the Technics SL-1200G. It looks identical to the old SL1200s you see on Craigslist, but its an entirely from the ground up new design. It is one of the best turntables made and the arm is not bad. If you go that route, its platter pad is a weak point: I replace them on sight. I would look into an inexpensive low output moving coil cartridge for it and talk to us (if you can't find anyone else) about building a cable that will allow you to run it balanced into your phono section (which is not expensive).

I agree with perkri.  What you will learn about setup will be necessary for your next turntable, if you decide to go that way.  I really enjoyed listening to what each parameter does(VTA, anti-skate, cartridge alignment, VTF,etc.)

Agree with the "don't spend money" logic.

I resurrected my 28yr old TT before I dove into vinyl. Bought a Nagaoka MP-110 and installed it. (Had to, because the old Shure was dead). Did the adjustments to the TT/arm/cartridge. Bought a good pressing of Kind of Blue and did some comparative listening. I liked what I heard and have not looked back. Now, the Red is by no means a crappy cartridge. I installed one on my friends Rega P2 and after the break in period, it sounds just fine. I chose it because he has a lot of old vinyl and I thought it would be forgiving on surface noise and other annoyances. 

It is a bit of an expense as you will be hunting for good pressings of your favorites, and they more often than not are kinda pricy.

You are going to find that you're going to want a proper record cleaning machine to be able to get the most out of your records. After having listened to "clean" digital files, you may or may not be comfortable w the snap crackle and oppose of vinyl...

Get what you have set up properly, or confirm that it is set up right. Get a good pressing of one of your fav's and let the cart break in.

If you like what you hear with that, it will only get better w better TT/arm/cart.

Good luck!

P

+1 Raymundo. Don't try to upgrade turntable -- you'll spend a lot and not get much return. Try the turntable with a better cartridge (again Dynavector for affordable great sound).

If you really like it, then look at a new turntable in a few months. Caveat: that way madness lies; audiophilia nervosa may lead you to keep upgrading... not so good unless you're really rich.

Meanwhile, enjoy what you have!

Thanks @effischer !

I have no idea on how to align it. Are you talking about leveling it?

Agreed on a good cable / Interconnects. It is a future proof purchase since I would be using the same cable when I upgrade the entire turntable setup.

Stylus beyond Ortofon Blue maybe too soon to decide on a good one.

‘For future upgrade I am thinking Clearaudio Concept or VPI Prime Scout