If you can spend that much money down the road- save for the 4k-use a good chunk of it for a cartridge. I went from a $600 shelter to a Lyra Kleos and wow! You might have enough left over for a decent upgrade to a used turntable with arm from reputable(look at their history) sellers. Make a fair offer, don't lowball and save even more money.
Look at cartridges available on audiogon. You can see a lot of great deals on cartridges from reputable sellers either demos or only with a few hours on them up to 50%off. And read a lot about them, their qualities and what you think will appeal to you. Analytical, warm, etc...Many private sellers have a fair bit of money and get bored quickly. Thank god for that.
Then get a good clean original copy of Graceland and go to town. Great vinyl is full body visceral in an exciting way.
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@stringreen @johnmarzy @2channel8 and @vindanpar : thank you very much.
I will get the Geodisc.
Getting a new cartridge is so difficult for people like me who are not familiar with their brands, etc. A lot of research to do.
Anyone here from DC area? |
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Set-up is crucial. You seem reluctant to do this yourself, and truthfully, there is a bit of a learning curve, so find someone in your area that can do this for you in your home. You will learn a lot about set-up, and will probably feel more confident doing it yourself in the future. The vinyl world is well worth the effort, but it's not for everybody. Some will considerer the "work" (for lack of a better term) required for proper playback. Set-up, cleaning,handling,storage, etc. etc.etc. Those of us that are primarily into vinyl accept all of this as a part of the intimate relationship with the medium. Good luck, and I hope you don't give up before you realize what good vinyl playback really is. |
thyname @2channel8: would this be designed as it should be (XLR male to RCA male and preserve the balanced signal for the Ayre k-1xe)?
http://silversonic.com/products/interconnects/bl-1/
No. To preserve a balanced signal, you'll need separate hot and neutral for each channel, and a ground independent of those separate neutrals. |
No. To preserve a balanced signal, you'll need separate hot and neutral for each channel, and a ground independent of those separate neutrals.
Does such thing exist? |
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Oh yes, of course.
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I've always wondered what % difference the cartridge makes for the overall sound of the set up. Does anyone know if there is such a thing as "home set up" i.e someone who comes to your house to set up your turntable and align your cartridge? I'm located in Northern NJ. Many thanks.
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@thyname, DH Labs is a reputable firm; but the Bl-1 is XLR OR RCA; not RCA to XLR. You could call them to see if they have what you want; but I think the savings would go out the window. You are not just looking for RCA to XLR. The cable must be executed to be balanced, which involves how the ground and shield are attached to the connectors. Dis I say that well, @cleeds ?
@spoutouzert, I am located in Madison, NJ. There are several really good shops in the area that do great turntable work; but it wouldn't be cost effective to have them come to you. If they do it in their shop, the only things you usually have to worry about at home are placement and leveling.
I'd be happy to discuss it off-line if you can provide contact info.
Does AG have a messaging function?
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I started with a Project Debut a few years ago. One Scout and thousands of dollars latter dedicated to the analog side, on it’s best day it sounds as good as a cd depending on the record. Most new repressing sound like crap. |
That’s not very encouraging @back2vinyl... |
When I was starting out with a high end system back in the 1981, I purchased the Dynavector 10X3, an Ultracraft tone-arm and a VPI 19 (since upgraded to a IV version and used for 78 rpm records). Sure, my current turntable/arm/cartridge system is $16K, but the old system is still very musical. I suggest looking for a good condition, used high end table, same for arm and a matching cartridge for that arm (compliance-wise). A Denon 103 makes an inexpensive but great sounding cartridge to start with on a good used tonearm (or maybe a Rega 3 if compliance is correct). You should spend about $1000 total to get a set-up to at least meet the CD quality sound and in some ways better it. Analog is just more cumbersome than digital. I love both, mostly based on mastering of the recording. Look for a higher end used deck or stick with the Project.
Get a better cartridge for sure. I've used that deck for 2 friends who inherited their father's large record collections but didn't want to spend much on turntable/arms. After using my recommendations for a better cartridge, they thanked me for the great sound at a bargain price (one got the Ortofon mm Blue, the other a Dynavector 10X5) |
Yes, the IC is rather poor quality. A good used one should run you under $100. My SME IV also came with a piece of crap IC for what was once a $3500 arm. |
Update from OP here:
Long story short: bought a Clearaudio Concept from my local dealer. He gave me a good deal I could not pass up. Just the standard tone arm and standard “concept” cartridge.
Just set it up with my dealer’s help, and it sounds great. No comparison with the Project Debut Carbon DC Esprit which is going back.
To complicate things, I have an Ortofon 2M Bronze coming in the mail, so question becomes: is the Ortofon Bronze better than the standard Concept cartridge, or should I just return it ?
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Boy, you don't fool around thyname! Totally different leagues between the Debut and the Concept as you've already discovered.
IMO, the 2M Bronze is much better than the Concept MM. Not everyone would agree, but that's as may be. Do you really want to change it out right now? That's not an easy answer. It generally takes some time to get everything to equilibrium and properly broken-in; usually ~50 hours of use. Only then can you identify the synergies and weaknesses in any given rig.
The Concept MM can always be sold later if you aren't satisfied, as could the 2M Bronze. Depreciation will apply to both, although the 2M can stay in the box for awhile without losing very much.
My suggestion would be to return the 2M and live with the Concept MM for the rest of the year. Save your money, think about how your system performs and do some A-B comparisons between your digital sources and your analog source. Try a few "golden oldies" like Getz & Gilberto or Harry James on Sheffield too. At that point, you might well find that you'll want to make the move to a LOMC instead. That move most often represents a whole new world of detail, image and dynamics.
Your call either way. In the meantime, enjoy a very nice vinyl rig. Happy listening!
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@effischer : much appreciate your well-thought reply to me. Thank you!
This kinda fell on my lap. A dealer I know locally, who is also a friend texted me about the unit - clearaudio concept I bought - that a customer just brought this in at the store (authorized clearaudio dealer) as a trade up.
So I went to take a look, and it was indeed in pristine condition, nothing missing, only four months used.
He also helped me with realigning the cart, and other setting I don't know yet.
Needless to say, I got a good price too.
Very interesting advice on selling the Bronze cart! It did cross my mind, but I am very curious to compare the two. I need to thing this over, and possibly take your advice and resist the temptation to try the Bronze.
BTW - I also bought a nice maple wood stand from the same dealer to put it underneath the table. It's a pity I cannot post pics here. Looks great! |
You can post photos if you like; just start a virtual system. Go to your member page and you'll readily find the link. I have my system up, but without pics yet. My entertainment area still isn't finished after 7 years of on-again, off-again construction. Doesn't hurt the sound but looks pretty bad. Nothing I want to show off.
Regardless, keep your eyes peeled here for vinyl toys, too. I've picked up several accessories at very fair prices over the years. Also some truly excellent vinyl.
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Enjoy that new table! For at least 2 months before you think about changing anything. As you said, it sounds great. Until you know exactly what you wish was different, you won't know which path to take. You may like the Bronze better than the Concept; but a Hana EH or Otofon MC3 (etc.) turbo may blow you away |
@spoutmozert, have you though about getting together or joining the AK meet? |
Anyone uses linear power supplies here to power their DC turntables? |
Yes, they do. With additional regulation, they can help.
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Thanks @atmasphere
Any idea where / which I can buy one in US? |
You can find some stuff on ebay. Some of it looks clunky but should do fine if hooked up right.
I'd try googling that one at any rate.
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@thyname, are there any high end audio shops within driving distance? I don’t recall if you said what part of the country you live in. If we knew that, the locals or those familiar could tell you where to stop in. Most high end shops will absolutely have one or more higher end tables set up with good gear. The intent here is not to entice you to buy but to hear what a good vinyl setup is capable of. Go listen to a few setups before spending any money. If you discover vinyl is a path worth pursuing, invest with pieces that can transfer to a better table. Start with a better cartridge. I think stepping up to just the Ortofon 2M Blue won’t transfer all that well to a quality table. I recommend at least the Ortofon Bronze, the Hana MC, or the Audio-Technica AT-OC9ML/II , all under $500 but could be used on the better table. You also have to let cartridges break in, including the 2M Red. I have one of those myself and it’s not bad for the price. Some require upwards of 100 hours of play to fully reveal all they have to offer. I did pretty much the same thing, although at a somewhat higher initial price. The value priced table I bought came with a better MM cartridge, but I bought an even better MC cartridge knowing I could continue to use it when I bought my "good" table (Technics SL 1200G). Oh, and cables do make a significant difference as your gear should be able to exploit that. What model of Ayre preamp are you using? Must it use a balanced connection for the phono section? Investing in a better cable would also be a transferable purchase to a better table someday. I have a Morrow PH5 cable on my new table. It’s not their best, but it’s in line with the Technics quality. I’m not sure if Morrow can terminate with a balanced connection on the one end, but they should be able to. |
Thanks @jsm71 !
Another update: I had my dealer come over at my house and install the new cartridge - the Ortofon Bronze - yesterday. I just wanted to make sure it was done right, alignment, weight and all - he brought all tools.
While there was a noticeable improvement (better bass and midrange, and slightly less "bright") to the stock Cocept MM cart, it was not eye popping. Still, I am happy I did it, so that I don't have to upgrade anything now for a while.
In terms of the cables, the Clearaudio Concept comes with "captive" interconnects (they cannot be removed from the turntable). I did buy from Audiogon some good quality gold connector adapters (RCA to XLR) for $35 plus $6 shipping.
And yes @jsm71 my phono stage is built in my Ayre pre-amp - K-1xe. It only accepts balanced connectors on its phono stage inputs.
Truth be told, I have made so many changes with my new analog setup now in such a short period of time, that I should really sit down and simply listen to music for a few weeks without any additional tweaks. I have bought quite a few records locally and through Amazon now, so plenty of (familiar) music to listen to.
Thanks everyone for your help! |
Yes, enjoy and I haven't seen a cartridge yet (or speaker) that didn't improve some when broken in. |
Any recommendations for a record cleaning machine? I bought one of those brush cleaners from Amazon, but I think I need a more robust one. Thanks |
thyname, A bit of icing is missing from your cake if you are trying to convert the single-ended output of your turntable into balanced mode for your Ayre. The Ayre phono section will sound best when fed with a true balanced signal. This is not so arcane as it sounds, because all cartridges are inherently balanced devices. To achieve a single-ended signal from a cartridge, typically the "ground" pin of the cartridge is connected to the shield of a single-ended cable, along with the turntable/tonearm ground connection. Your hard-wired IC is probably configured this way. A typical single-ended phono stage works fine this way.
In contrast, a balanced signal consists of two halves, one "plus" and one "minus". To get the most out of that output with respect to feeding the Ayre, you would want each half of that balanced signal from the cartridge to be carried on a separate conductor where the two conductors are identical. The typical XLR on a balanced IC carries the plus half on pin2, the minus half on pin3, and the grounds (turntable, tonearm, etc) separately on pin1. Thus, for carrying the phono signal in balanced mode, you want to connect the "ground" pin of the cartridge (which by convention is really the minus half of the signal) to pin3 of an XLR, keeping it separate from TT/tonearm ground (which goes to pin1) and carrying it on its own conductor. The Ayre sounds best this way. (I used to own an Ayre phono stage; I tried it both ways.) The hard-wired single ended IC on your new TT kind of makes for a problem in achieving that goal. (There's nothing "wrong" with it, because most phono stages are SE circuits. You happen to own a rare true balanced phono section.) But meantime, find out if you enjoy vinyl using your new set-up as is, which does sound like a big improvement over the original. What I am talking about here is, like I said, icing on the cake if you want to go the last mile. With a little surgery best performed by a knowledgeable tech, you could make the change to optimize the balanced connection, if you perceive you will be moving forward with vinyl. |
Thank you very much @lewm !
Definitely something I plan to do down the road, if I am lucky enough to find someone that understands what you wrote and knows what to do
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thyname,
lewm is dead on. Big improvement in sound quality using a true balanced wiring harness from your cartridge pins to the K-1xe’s phono input. Don’t put it off. I can help you if you PM me.
Dave
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I can help too- we produced the world's first balanced line phono preamp.
The advantage is that the interconnect between the arm and cartridge does not contribute or rob anything from the sound of the system, unlike single-ended setups where the interconnect has to be auditioned.
That means that a really expensive cable won't sound any better than a cheap one as long as its wired right. So its worth doing!
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Ralph, have you considered offering a stand-alone balanced phono stage? I’d bet you could sell quite a few of them! There are a number of solid state balanced phonos, but no tube (other than the phono stage in your complete pre’s), as far as I know. |
A Atma-Sphere phono stage would be soooo tempting... |
Right, hedgehog?! One of the most mystifying-to-me things in perfectionist Hi-Fi is why pickup arm wiring and phono amps aren't commonly and routinely done balanced. Pickups are inherently balanced devices, yet that built-in advantage is squandered. Why?! There are a few designers and companies offering balanced phono stages; Ralph Karsten at Atma-Sphere, of course, and Peter Noerbaek at Liberty Audio (the B2B-1 used in pairs). I imagine there are others. That should change, asap! On the other hand, a fair number of perfectionist arms are offered with their internal wiring terminated in XLR's. |
Best thing is to invest in AC isolation/conditioning. An Equitech balanced power product will put your TT into an entirely different performance level. Address the basics.
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