Big speakers in small room at moderate volume levels
My office is 11’W x 10’L x 9’H and is where I can listen to music for the next few years. I have a toddler and, for now, he has commanded the big spaces in the rest of the house. I have auditioned the Magico A3 and wanted to buy it but that was before I was relegated to the smallish office (I was expecting to move to a bigger room). I have removed the closet doors in this office room. The removal of the closet door gives me another 4 feet of depth to this room, though for only 1/2 width of the room. I can sit unobstructed 8 feet away from the speakers before I hit the area where the closet ends (so near field listening).
I currently I have KEF LS50 with Peachtree Nova 150. It is good and I can listen for the whole day without fatigue. I listen to FM, digital files on ROON, and my Sony SCD-1 SACD player. I want a bigger sound so I am looking at bigger speakers. I also do not want to use a sub since I am not a fan. I will also upgrade the NOVA 150 to the NOVA 500 in Spring 2019 and use with the LS50’s in a bedroom.
I came to the conclusion that my tastes would be best served by one of KEF Reference 1 or Magico A3. I was thinking that I would use the Lyngdorf 3400 in this room but I am having seconds thoughts on this now (some A’gon comments that it maybe a little dry). I am interested in solid state AB units like the Hegel H590 and Mark Levinson 585 to drive the speakers. I have heard the ML 585 and it is a fatigue free sounding unit that was a joy to listen to. I have not heard the Hegel H590 yet (but have heard other Hegels with KEF) and I am in the process of getting an audition of the H590. I have also discounted the class AB Micromega M-One 150 (with MARS room correction) because I do not want a cooling fan blowing in the room.
I must mention that I do not listen that loud when I am working and when I am working very late at night the volume is very low. The Mark Levinson and A3 combo was very good at low volumes during my demo but that was in the dealers perfect large room.
1) Am I making a mistake foregoing room correction with the 2 integrateds I am considering? Should I go with the Lyngdorf and A3 or KEF Ref 1, though I have never heard the Lyngdorf?
2) Will the Magico A3 work in this small room at moderate volumes WITHOUT room correction or will I subject myself to headaches and fatigue?
I am going to ask the dealer selling the A3’s this question when I am ready to buy but i wanted to ask on A’gon first to get some feedback. I doubt I could get the A3’s into my room for a trial but I have not asked the dealer yet.
I think (not 100% sure) the KEF Reference 1 with a non room correcting amp should work in my office space but I would prefer to buy the Magico A3 for the office. I have plans to buy another KEF model once my kid is a bit older and I can kick him out of the big room.
@gdnrbob That Kaya line is rather impressive, at least the Kaya 90 that I heard.
I am going to demo another speaker his Friday that I heard demoed by the same store reps a few years ago in a really bad (small) hotel room. This time the demo will be at their shop. It is the Paradigm Persona 5F driven by Simaudio. I am really only interested in the Persona 3F because I think it should fit my room and also comparable to the 2 other speakers I have under consideration and already heard, the Magico A3 and Vandersteen Treo CT. They only have the 5F for demo. It could be more coherent than the Magico A3 since the materials in the mid and tweeter are the same on the Persona line.
Should be interesting since this is such a polarizing speaker on this forum and with some reviewers. I was reading an online review on the Persona B and the reviewer stopped it half way and said I hate it no need to continue. Never seen that before. When I heard it in the bad room a few years ago I thought it had a lot of potential and I should listen to it again.
@yyzsantabarbara . I have never heard of the Kaya until now. Thanks for posting that, now I have something else to try listening to in addition to MBL and German Physics. Bob
With the buy decision made on the Lyngdorf and my room now sounding good even without treatments, another speaker that I think I can add back into the picture is the Vivid Kaya line. I went to hear this speaker the same day as the Magico A3 | Vandersteen Treo CT | Vivid Kaya 90. I thought the Kaya 90 was the best of the bunch but it was rather rich for my pocket book and also too big in sound. My listening time with the Vivid Kaya 90 was real short but what I heard sounded somewhat like the KEF Blade.
Prior to the Lyngdorf, I thought the Kaya would not fit in my space. However, it does have some things that would work real well with the Lyngdorf. It can be placed very close to the back wall. I got this info from the dealer I visited and also heard this from an email with one of the principals at Vivid Audio in South Africa. He described the placement they sometimes had to use in small hotel room demos. The Kaya also has a Lyngdorf approved narrow front profile (facing the listener).
This link above has a photo of the middle item in the current Kaya lineup. It has less bass than the Kaya 90 that I heard (a good thing for my room). It is also cheaper. Finances are also fluid and I maybe able to raise some pennies for the Kaya 45.
I just need to live with the Lyngdorf for a few months and really understand what it’s limits are. In other words I am not going to jump in on a speaker purchase. Today, it seems to me that I have a lot more options in getting good sound in this room.
My wife is on board with this office audio upgrade of mine and looking forward to getting the KEF LS50 and Peachtree Nova into her loft office space in the house. She listens to music via the iPhone and the Peachtree has some enhancements to facilitate that in a semi-decent manner. Her loft space is actually rather amazing acoustically.
I made some changes to my room last night. I removed my small desk facing the speakers and the side table near the right speaker. This morning I started to test out the room again with my most fatiguing disks, such as The Smashing Pumpkins, etc... The new room sound is a revelation. These hard sounding disks no longer have that fatiguing hardness to them. My ears and head are feeling nothing bad. I removed the second office desk based on the ideas that were presented on the links @James63 posted. It made sense to remove the desk after watching those videos.
My current LS50 and Peachtree are sounding rather impressive now in this room even without treatments, though I keep the entrance door opened. I have posted some photos of the new room furnishings on my virtual system.
Last night, while most were partying, I went over some emails I had with a Lyngdorf dealer in New Mexico a few months back. He had actually provided me with the same answers that my personal online research ended up with. However, when he said it, I had some doubts but my research is also leading me to believe that the Lyngdorf will sound very good. The fact that my Class D Peachtree Nova is sounding so good now (though with moderate to high volume) also makes me feel good about the Lyngdorf Class D. Not all Class D are the same but I believe the Lyngdorf will be much better than the Nova. I can always try different amps with the Lyngdorf, such as the ones l mentioned in a previous post.
I am going to forego demoing the Lyngdrof at a local dealer and just buy it from the remote dealer. He seems like an expert on the unit and he is a huge advocate for it, that knowledge is worth a lot to me. One important thing he said was that in my room any speaker with a small profile will work, such as the Magico A3, KEF Ref 1, KEF Ref 3, I also assume the even narrower Vandersteen Treo CT will work. He also said that placing the speaker closer to the front wall (not against) is better for the Lyngdorf. With the Magico A3 and the Vandersteen Treo CT this is not a problem at all.
So I have the following things to do:
1) Wait for the room treatments and party with those in place for a while
2) Save some pennies to buy the Lyngdorf 3400. That can occur anytime this week to the end of March.
3) Demo the Harbeth at home, demo the Magico A3 at home after I get the Lyngdorf. Compare them to the Vandersteen Treo CT. My feeling is that the Treo CT will fit sound wise in between the Harbeth and Magico A3 sound. The Harbeth is not narrow but it is not a bass master like the other 2. This has to be a speaker for very long hours of play every day.
To make things interesting, and the Lyngdorf is the reason for this new thought, I have another speaker that I have been very interested in for years now. This is my thread from some time back, https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/yamaha-ns-5000
This is not available in the USA but it is now in Canada, at a dealer just a few miles from my mom and dad’s home. It would cost me about the price of the TAD ME1 to have it shipped to me in California. It is a stand-mount but it has deep bass and it does NOT have a narrow profile. I am going to keep an eye on this one while I become an expert with the Lyngdorf.
I am listening to The Smiths self-title disc now and it is sounding so good. I have owned the LS50s since 2012 and used them in many bad rooms. I think this room is now the best room I have ever had the LS50’s. I don’t recall them sounding this good. I have had better electronics on the LS50’s but the room improvements I made last night are a bigger factor than the change of amps and DAC. Nice way to start the New Year.
I wrote an update to this thread but I seem to have suffered the posting gremlins in the new A'Gon catcha selections. Let me test this post and then try again (condensed version).
It may have been said in earlier posts but Lyngdorf 3400 in addition to automatic correction and eq curves also has manual dsp correction. So you are actually able to get whatever sound you like. If you want subs to do the low parts the crossover facility in Lyngdorf amps is very good. A much cheaper but powerful alternative would be the new XTZ edge amp paired with an Antimode 2.0. No crossovers though.
I made a change to the furniture in the room. I got rid of the desk facing the speakers. I can get by with out it. I am also going to remove the ugly 30 year old side table I have near the right speaker. The cable modem and other wires will go to the ground.
Listening to Muddy Waters "Hard Again" sounds much improved now. It sounds like a big desk has been removed from in front of the speakers. A brilliant move on my part.
I must say that at the moment the LS50’s are sounding alight. It would be interesting to try it with better amplification but I am not going to diverge from my plans to do that. I will get the Harbeth SHL5+ for a home demo in 3-4 weeks with my Pearchtree Nova 150. This will show me the character of the Harbeth and also show how a bigger speaker sounds in the acoustically treated room.
I will post photos soon when I install the acoustic treatments that should be in transit to my home.
@James63 I demoed the A3 at Brooks Berdan in Los Angeles area. The room may have been 3/4 your size. That room sounded great with A3 and Mark Levinson gear.
I would say this popular thread benefits from your extensive writing on the learning / personal journey of discovery while you solve some unique issues with demanding requirements- people are investing in helping you and learning themselves...
to that end i had another reason to read the Lyndorf 3400 manual
it has extensive filters for high Pass as well as frequency response smoothing DSP
you should be able to set a first order filter at 40 HZ or so and fix some room gain issues
The vivids look nice but I always ignored them due to price. I have the opposite issue as you with a 27’x25’x7.5’ deticated room (real estate is cheap in Ohio). I have the setup off center and a carefully selected seating position to help with the square room issue.
Low bass seems fine in my room but I struggle to get good mid bass impact and really need big speakers and that gets pricy (good and big…). With my duel subs I have a good bit of flexibility on speaker choice but the A3 is probably the smallest speaker I would go with.
For what it is worth when I was remodeling I put a pair of B&W 803s (not D) in a 12’x11’x8’ room and was really surprised that it sounded fine. I am sure the bass was lumpy but I remember thinking it was pretty enjoyable honestly with great impact in the mid bass. However I did not know much back then and it was my first “real” set of speakers which I grew to hate lol (too harsh).
@tomic601 I took another look at the "Who has Luv for the Lyngdorf 2170 and is thinking about the 3400." thread. I read it from beginning to end. I actually posted some questions into that thread a few months ago.
It was a good read and I did a deep dive into the posters eventual systems and other thread comments (spent about 4 hours). It also got me feeling optimistic again on the bigger floor-stander for my room. My take away as pertaining to my situation:
1) Having a treated room prior to apply Room Perfect DSP is not a bad thing and will cause Room Perfect to have to do less work. Your speakers can have the burden of reproducing certain freq's removed by getting rid of the room treatments and having the Room Perfect deal with it. However, I would not do this and plan on keeping my acoustic treatments. Let the speaker work.
2) The amplification stage after the DSP can be variable. You can use the Class D as built-in on the amp. Or, you can buy a separate amp and use the RCA or XLR pre-amp out to an external amp. One user on YouTube mentioned he has a tube amp, a SS class AB amp, and the default internal Class D amp hooked up. He uses solid state when he wants background and the tube when he is focused on the music. Not saying the tubes are better than the default it was just this posters preference. A lot of A'gon posters love the sound of the Lyngdorf by itself. I have not yet contacted your friend about the Lyngdorf and Treo CT. I want to listen to the Lyngdorf first.
3) The Lyngdorf system sounds best with digital files. There is an upgraded analog input card that I would need to get and this does a A-2-D conversion of the signal. My listening of my analog sources are not that high. One CD a day on my modded Sony SCD-1 (a fun sound for me) and some KCRW.com FM radio (if they are not playing AutoTune garbage). Most of my listening is Tidal/ROON which the Lyngdorf is optimized for. It also has an Ethernet DAC streaming input, though the USB is supposedly still better sounding. My Sonare microRendu needs to follow my KEF LS50's to whatever room it goes to so the Ethernet input can save me a few dollars until I get another Ethernet-2-USB device.
3) The digital processing of the digital files is done by a Texas Instruments chip. I do not think this is a DAC chip, though in reality I do not care nor do I need to understand all the details. It is supposed to be lossless or bit perfect or something of that nature.
4) The volume control is excellent and the volume comes from a silent background at all levels. I heard the beauty of the silent background with my old Benchmark AHB2 amp ($3K)
5) Dealer states that a floor stander the size of a Magico A3 or Treo CT can work with DSP in my room. I am skeptical but hope to be proven wrong.
6) I need to go listen to this amp this week at a local shop. I will make 2 trips down to the dealer. If the first trip shows me a general sound that I like without the DSP, I will ask to demo this unit again using DSP with something that approaches what I am looking to get. It takes time to dial in the DSP with the microphone setup.
As I begin this journey back into audio I am starting to become a bit of an audio geek. I have some interest (if / when funds permit) to try a tube amp and class A amp. Buy and sell gear just to try like a lot of you guys here do. A lower power requirement on the speaker will give me more options. Another plus for the Treo CT over the Magico A3. A few amps that I am interested in are the following:
- Benchmark AHB2 (buy this back, sold it to make an investment) - BAT tube amp (had an old SS BAT VK-42SE preamp and loved it) - Krell XD amp (want to demo this) - Mark Levinson amplification - Pass Labs - CODA pure class A amp - and whatever else comes along
With the Lyngdorf in the pre-amplification stage, with or without DSP turned on, I believe I would have a framework to do this. You are not tied to any particular amplification if this is the intended nature for the pre-amp outputs. I will confirm this with my dealer visit later this week and also try the pre-amp out to maybe a Simaudio amp they have.
@james63 I forgot to mention that in my downstairs space. I have 30 foot long wall, when the adjacent family room is accounted for. So the science for the acoustics in that room should say it is an excellent space. That space will get a family friendly big rig system. Just waiting on my lottery ticket for that one.
BTW - for anyone wondering why I am writing so much verbiage. It is a way for me to remember the things I am finding along the way. I have re-read this thread a few times to focus my thinking.
@audiotroy After watching those videos mentioned above it seems like the Magico A3 would really be tough to get into my room. Of course you did say that too. The Treo CT maybe possible. If you think driving to LA to bring a pair of Magico A3 's to my home is a PITA (it is). You should hear my 20 year old story of buying my Revel Salon 1 from Los Angeles when I lived near San Francisco. There were massive boxes that I drove by-myself to pick up, an open bed rental truck,
a raging winter storm that I thought was going to destroy the speakers,10* hour drive, pea soup fog with 2 foot visibility on a major hwy, police pulling me over,. Fun times.
However, there is something that @tomic601 mentioned that I spent about 4 hours investigating yesterday that may give me some options.
Unfortunately, I am sitting in the exact worst sport you have identified. There is nothing I can do about it because I need all those computer monitors on my desk. In the photo of my room you see the desk chair is against a 31 inch wall.
I am getting room treatment panels for that 31" wall and the closet space and it is supposed to make it appear as if the wall does not exist right behind me. That is the takeaway from the description my friend with the Spendor D7 gave regarding the wall behind his couch. He has tamed the wall it in a manner that made the sound non-fatiguing. I am hoping the same happens to my situation. I have the opening of the closet space and now the ability to open the entrance door which I hope will make that 31" wall less of an obstacle. Without treatments when I play music (KEF LS50's) that is loud and hard the the sound is rather good with the room entrance door open, not so good with it closed.
The reason I went to demo the Magico A3 over the S1 was because felt that the price of the S1 was not something I wanted to pay for that type of speaker. Also when I went to audition the A3 I was under the impression I that the house I would move to would have a larger office space. Maybe 2x as large as the current one. However, I decided to move to this current place because it is perfect for my kid.
Another speaker that is maybe similar to the Magico S1 is the following:
I heard the big brother, Vivid Kaya 90, on the same day as the Treo CT and Magico A3. It sounded great but (somewhat like the KEF Blade) it was too large a sound for my room and expensive. I know you are thinking about a Magico. Take a look at the Vivid if you have not done so already, it is an excellent speaker..
I don’t have any speaker advice but most all of our rooms are not large enough to support bass waves without bending them. Even a 40hz wave is 28’ long and that makes even the 1/2 wave 14’. It is just the way it is… a speaker that goes down to 40hz will still have standing waves (a spike followed by a dip) in most rooms. You need to find the residence of the room and try to trap that frequency.
With that in mind you need to “eliminate” the room and sit as near field as possible imo. The other key will be NOT to sit with your head near the rear wall where that wave is changing direction.
If I were you I would be looking at what speaker works the best in extreme near field (thinking driver placement and integration) and think about sitting very close to the speakers.
I read the whole thread and see your are off the A3 now but I am curious why you did not look at the S1?
Wow you are willing to go through a lot of work. The one demo of the Magico's we heard they were way forward with gobs of deep bass. Even if you open up the room a bit you may still overload it.
The Vandy Treo's do have less bass and a less aggressive voiicing then the Magico.s personally we feel that their bass is going to be a bit boomy but you will have less of it then the Magicos.
Overall the room is still quite small we would still caution against any speakers with bass lower than 30hz range.
Let us know your findings with the new Krell KAV 300i talked to Walter and he says it is amazing sounding. Time will tell.
"We all have different tastes in music, hearing, and different rooms. A
general statement like spending more on a speaker is a waste does not
come across as accurate from my perspective."
Absolutely. I just prefer not to spend more if I can get equal audio ability. In the end it is what makes us happy. My all time favorite is a set of Kipsch MCM 1900's I have and since I can't buy what I want I am getting ready to build an MWM bass bin variant which should go down to 27hz -10db and stick a set of K-402 horns on top. Probably have to get into DSP with this one since the throat of the Super MWM will be 106" long but you are right there inside the organ pipe with these.
I will still stand by my recommendation of the Vandy VLR. Of course, it isn't up to the Treo's, but I have to say it really makes my office alive. I didn't think they were up to the task, and I tried a pair of Zu Omen Bookshelves, but the Vandy VLR beat them hands down. You can now get them with the Carbon Tweeters, though at a higher cost.
@mahlman As I listened to more speakers I found out that I the ones I liked the most are not the lowest priced ones, except KEF LS50. I have used as my primary (sometimes only speaker) anything from a Audioengine A2 ($200) to a Revel Salon ($20,000). I have been fortunate to have audio stores or audio shows around the areas I have lived in, so I have heard a good amount of speakers.
We all have different tastes in music, hearing, and different rooms. A general statement like spending more on a speaker is a waste does not come across as accurate from my perspective.
I have heard Klipsch before when my dad owned some in his HT system. Likely not the same model as you are mentioning.
A set of Klipsch Chorus I's with MAHL tweeter upgrades worked fine for me. Went to hear some B&W's at HIFI buys in Nashville and ended up getting these upgraded vintage Klipsch speakers instead. Sounded far more musical and put the $20,000.00+ money difference in my pocket. The idea that there is a certain $$ level needed to achieve superior audio is an expensive thing to cater to and why do it if you don't have to. Great sound is where you find it not how much you spent to get it. Cello and pipe organ music are faithfully reproduced in very fine quality as are all other genres I have played and I hope that poor sales guy never hears what cheapo $1,300.00 speakers sound like.
@tomic601 I spent a lot of time reading on A'gon posts by Treo CT owners, including a few by you. Lot of good info and undeniable passion for the Treo CT.
@twoleftears I have not been able to find that search functionality you are referring too. I had to do something like guess what room size a particular component would be used in and then filter by that room size. At least it narrows down the number of virtual systems to leaf through.
@audiotroy I know your suggestion is a winner with the KEF Reference 1, it is my fall back plan if all else fail. However, the plan of getting the Blade 2 from my large living room downstairs is becoming closer to happening. Wife is saying the other day we need to have some music around the kid, she likes the way the Blade 2 looks, and I love the sound of the Blade 2. This is happening once I feel the kid is a little wiser (see below). So getting the Reference 1 for the office is not that exciting in the context of 3 KEF’s in the house. I will call you on the Blade. You were the first person to discuss the Blade with me by email, maybe 6 years ago.
I am also starting to think I may not need any type of DSP for the office. This is because of the suggestion made to me by sound engineer Mike Major at GIK Acoustics. He told me to open my room door to make the room acoustically bigger. It has made a huge difference so far. He also said opening the window behind the left speaker would also help but I cannot torment my neighbors that way. My GIK acoustic panels should have shipped from Georgia to California 2 days ago. Those panels will help deaden the room and give me more options. My room is getting "bigger", speaker wise. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605
I can safely open the office room door now because my toddler, who is 2 years and 6 months old and already at 38 inches tall and 45+ lb. A big kid who can do damage to speakers. He has decided that when I am in the office and working that I am boring and and he leaves me to it. He is growing fast because when I started this thread I had to keep the door always closed to avoid him causing damage inside the room.
I spoke to a local KRELL dealer on Friday, he introduced me to KRELL via an in-store demo a few years ago, he is willing to give me a package of the KEF REF R1 and KRELL K-300i. If I go that way, I will get the demoed KRELL from him and get the KEF REF 1 from you. Seems fair to me.
Now with this supposed "magical" growth in my room I am going to consider 2 larger speakers that I have heard, the Magico A3 and Vandersteen Treo CT. All of this is to try and not buy the KEF Reference 1.
I am rather optimistic the Treo CT will work in my space. When I heard them the same day as the Magico A3 (1 hour apart), I thought the Treo CT had a more rounded sound than the Magico A3 and not as deep bass (a good thing). I think audiophiles call that a musical sound, which maybe more suitable for longer hours. I thought the A3 sound was more to my liking but I am not sure that 8 hours of the Magico A3 would be as good as 8 hours of the Treo CT. I am going to bring that Magico into my room to demo it. That is a lot of grunt work but I will do it (a 2 hour drive in LA traffic one way).
As you see I am still with the same small group of speakers that I triangulated with earlier on the thread.
if anyone cares, I will be hearing the following components in January to give me some more choices for my audio tool chest.
- Harbeth SHL5+ (maybe similar to the Treo CT but softer sounding, will do a home demo) - Lyngdorf 2170 integrated (just in case I need DSP) - Anthemt STR integrated (same store as Lyngdorf, may listen to it) - Simaudio 390 (same store as Lyngdorf, in event I do not buy an integrated) - a 390 and Benchmark AHB2 (I recently sold) maybe great with the Treo CT - a 390 and a Jeff Roland amp maybe perfect with the Magico A3.
my recollection is there are about ten of active or semi-active here on the forum who have Treo or Treo CT in a wide variety of rooms and systems....I would suggest send a PM and invite some into this conversation, which they may have missed. I know there is a supremely happy guy in Atlanta running the Carbon Tweeter Treo with Lyngdorf...
I listened to Margo and company last eve in the mid 60 db range in our condo system - clear as a bell with sweet detail and the unmistakable image of the ambisonic microphone array... BTW the QRP pressing of this, at least my copy is immaculate....were they all that good.
sounds like your local dealer foray was valuable...have fun...
Yysantabarbera you are back to square one, with a similar viewpoint to what we recommended when we first talked on the telephone.
Micromega M150 as it is compact, has room correction which will make a small difficult room sound great with a pair of Kef Reference Ones.
This is a reasonably priced setup that is compact in size and sounds fantastic, the M150 is one hell of a great integrated, we will be bringing in the KAV 300i as it seems to be a killer integraed the Krell doesn't have room correction though which is a disadvantage vs the Micromega.
Food for thought. This package will come in reasonably in cost, will work wonders for a small room, and only requires an ethernet cable and one power cord. Simple elegant and fantastic sounding.
The Kef Reference ones work fabuslously well in a small room, wide dispersion, adjustable bass loading, and not too much deep bass and they sound big.
Use a good power cord, a set of good isolation feet Isoacosutic or Critical mass, a good ethernet cable and speaker cables and you will have one fanastic compact mini reference system.
So apparently good soundstaging over a wide sweet spot matters a lot to you. It does to me too. I like to feel immersed in the music, including the soundscape on the recording, and I like to share that experience with others without it being limited to the one or two best seats.
If you want something stand mounted the Vandy VLR is exceptional for the money. I have them in my office, using them off axis (actually mounted near the ceiling corners on wall mounts). Very nice and relaxing, and detailed. I have listened to them with and without subs, when placed by corners, the bass is substantial. Bob
Had a few long conversations with a couple of local dealers today. Got prices and suggestions. Discussed with dealers with the following lines, Lyngdorf, Anthem STR integrated, Simaudio 390 network player/preamp, KRELL K-300i integrated, KEF Reference 1, and the Harbeth SHL5+ (not a dealer for the line). Interesting feedback on room correction software. They preferred room treatments over the DSP approaches. However, the room treatments may not always work but the DSP can save the day. I will see once my GIK room treatments are installed.
As I stated in my first post, the sensible thing for my tastes, is likely to get the KEF R1. However, I am not feeling the excitement about doing that. Reason is having 3 KEF’s in the house. I am feeling some excitement for the new KRELL K-300i integrated. If that sounds close to the ML 585 then it is a better option than the ML because of the better connectivity options.
I am going to take the advice of a few posters here and check out the Vandersteen Treo CT again. One thing I was reading negatively for me on the Treo CT is the suitability of this speaker for low volume listening. I have been working all night tonight while also doing some audio research and my current system sounds bad at the low volumes I currently have set. Some A’gon posters brought this up on other threads about the Treo CT. Any of the Treo CT champions on this thread care to offer an opinion on that.
I will also keep the Magico A3 for consideration. I can do a home demo but I looked at the size of the boxes (on the online manual) and I am not sure if it would fit in my SUV. My have to rent a pickup truck for that.
I got to get a floor stander into my room for demo, to either buy it or finally get it out of my system (physically and mentally). One thing that I have noticed is that by opening up my door, my room has become acoustically much larger.
@gdnrbob I am not considering the Treo CT for the office. I have decided to go with the stand mount monitor type speakers. I was just stating that I had recently heard the Treo CT at a dealer event.
Another late night written verbal diatribe follows below:
In all likelihood it will come down to the KEF Reference 1 (used or demo) or out of left field (for me) the Harbeth SHL5+ (used). The TAD ME1 is a severe long shot due to cost. I was also researching other stand mounts today, such as the Focal Supra No1, Paradigm Persona B, and some others that come up in comparison in reviews. However, none of them made me want to switch from the KEF Reference 1 or Harbeth options.
I am not saying these are the best 2 speakers I have considered but for my of-axis needs, my low volume needs, my desire for large soundstage and more bass, pinpoint imaging, my desire to occasionally play some head banger tunes, these 2 speaker seem to be the best choices (definitely the KEF not certain about Harbeth on a few of those characteristics).
I need to give my head a shake on the cost of this system. Main goal is to have something fun to listen to and non-fatiguing for about 8-10 hours a day. It does not have to be the ultimate reference quality system. I am supposed to be working after all.
I had an interesting email conversation with a reviewer from a popular online audio magazine this afternoon. I inquired about a standalone DAC he had reviewed and we then started a good conversation about buying a new system. He stated that if he was buying a new system today he would go for an integrated with a DAC built-in. He was of the opinion that the law of diminishing returns is being seen now with these new integrated models. They are so good that it is hard to justify spending on separates, especially for my type of office system. This is also what I was thinking and it was good to hear it from someone in the audio field.
So with that in mind, the integrated I SHOULD buy is the Mark Levinson 5805 (125W @8Ohms + 250W @4Ohms). I have not heard it because it is not released yet but it should sound similar to the 585 which I heard but that one is $12K and has more power than I would need. Another integrated I will hear is the brand new Krell K-300i (with Krell's new XD technology).
The Krell integrated is a bit cheaper than the ML 5805 and has better connectivity options to match my existing gear needs. I have inquired with a local dealer to give me a call if and when they get it into their shop. I am not in a rush for the new integrated because I have the Peachtree to tie me over until I can get exactly what is the best choice.
The Lyngdorf is still around for consideration but I will now also included the Anthem STR line of electronics into the mix because both have room correction. I will only look into this if the Peachtree Nova 150 I own sounds fatiguing or bad driving whatever speakers I buy. I was going to go with an out of state dealer for the Lyngdorf, but I cannot get a home demo from him, and a local dealer has both Lyngdorf and Anthem so I will drive to them if DSP is something I need to tame my room.
I am dropping the Luxman 509x from consideration because I would need a DAC and interconnects and power cord for that DAC. Costs would run higher than need be if I got single Integrated-DAC unit.
I am also be dropping the Hegel H590 from consideration also due to cost. A shame because given my past hearing Hegel driving KEF Blades I would think the H590 would have been my #1 choice.
I have decided a few months ago to forgo something that I thought I would definitely require in my next DAC. That is streaming directly into the DAC via Ethernet. I already have a microRendu Ethernet-to-usb device and that is good enough. So dropping the Ethernet to DAC need, except in the case of the Lyndgdorf 3400 which has this feature already.
I now think I can get a new office system for $15K or less doing the things in sound quality I initially asked about.
@gdnrbob I have heard the most recent version of the Treo CT in Nov 2018. Mr. Vandersteen was in the room when they were being demoed. They sounded excellent.
I still wouldn't cut the Vandy's. My Treo's are great, but having the EQ bass would be the way to go without adding too much to the size of the speaker. I urge you to at least give them a listen. Bob
@tomic601 that hasn’t been my experience. I had JBL Synthesis and they suggested 16” minimum from side boundaries. Indeed I did set them up 16” and they sounded great. So it seems to be that depending on the design of the speaker the manual will suggest varying setup guidelines.
the manual foor any speaker will most likely cite gold standard distance / geometry..reality and waf then intervene.....such is life before a purpose builtt room...
get room treatments up, run trial w Peachtree, etc..bet u like it !!!!!
kids here crazy for long board skate boards...swarming the hill, adults surfing on new boardds. ..ggeeezers like me drinking and listening to new Vinyl...enjoy Christmas thru a toddlers eyes
I looked at the KEF Ref 1, 3, 5 manual and you are correct when it lists 3m for side wall boundary. Though my discussion with KEF USA rep and also a KEF dealer indicated that the REF 1 will work fine in my room. Dealer was recommending the Micromega with analog MARS room correction just to be safe. Told me to not use MARS if not needed. I decided to try room treatments first with my KEF LS50s then branch out to the bigger speaker once the acoustic panels are settle in the proper place.
If you take a look at KEF Reference systems in A’gon members virtual systems here you will see setups with much less than 3m side wall spacing. Heck, I have seen Ref 3 against the side wall in some dealer HT systems. A poster to this thread has a photo of his Ref 5 very close to the walls. So I think the KEF Ref manual’s statements are not the final word on this issue.
I even conversed with KEF Blade owners who have put the Blades in near-field setups in rooms about my size (they liked it). I am too chicken to do that myself, though I have contemplated it. The Blades are side firing so they are even worse than the Ref line for side wall issues. The issue with Ref’s is supposed to be putting them too close to the rear wall (from a dealer comment). However, as I posted above, Alan Shaw from Harbeth indicates that front port or rear port does not matter when it comes to bass output (maybe I am stating this incorrectly, I think I provided a link to Shaw’s comments earlier).
I also had a very large monitor speaker before in the Thiel SCS4. It also has concentric drivers and not as much bass as the Ref 1. However, it is almost as big as the Ref 1. I tried that speaker in a room about my current office size and it worked OK. I need some treatments behind my couch but it was not tragic.
The TAD ME1 that I am considering has some side port features that seem to indicate that it can be placed rather close to the side walls. Expensive speaker though.
@tomic601 My kid had a lot of fun the last 2 days. I spent 4 hours getting his toy (don’t even know what to call it) setup on Christmas eve. My wife’s idea of buying it. He was a happy camper to see it when he woke in the morning. Lot of fun seeing all the neighbourhood kids out on Christmas day playing with the new toys.
"I know someone w TREO who I trust who has Lyngdorf and he js estatic about the sound he is getting...I have yet to hear his system, when next in Atlanta, I hope to. H9mework for me."
That is an interesting quote. I keep trying to dismiss the Lyngdorf but it keeps popping back up in
I took a look through the user manual for the reference series and it shows in the setup guide 3 meters recommended distance from the side boundaries. i deduced thatthe kef ref 1/3/5 all require a room of at least 15 feet on the wall they are to be placed. also wanted a speaker that will work well with low powered set amplification.
due to this i have considered something else.
enter the coherent line of speakers. he is local and i have had an opportunity to hear his speakers. they are very nice sounding. i am probably going to purchase a pair of his gr10 speakers. they will be placed on my wall that measures 9.5 feet wide and I will try to get them placed as far apart as I can, most likely 6 feet apart with 1.5 feet from side walls and 4 feet away from front wall. i will sit 6 feet away and 4 feet into the room. this will be a nearfield positioning for sure. i somehow doubt the kef ref 1 i was considering would sound very good in this possible setup. perhaps the coherent will be a better behaving speaker and certainly will be so with the 8w el84 amplifier I am planning on acquiring, from finale audio.
@gdnrbob.....no not currently..the Micromega 100 would just barely fit in the Condo niche and probably load up the fan BUT I like listening time to form opinions vs purely principle driven rants..frankly the M100 could be viewed as a listen, learn, flip opportunity...I might just do that...
I know someone w TREO who I trust who has Lyngdorf and he js estatic about the sound he is getting...I have yet to hear his system, when next in Atlanta, I hope to. H9mework for me.
I do have enough seat time w digital sound recording tools, engineers running active studios as friends, and some career time in DSP ( think finding submarines ) to have an idea of what might best be fixed passively or in the analof domain vs digital - those bias show up in my two systems.
yyzz...busted..I enjoy this thread, enough I guess to jump back in....hope your Toddler Christmas was grand !!!!!! jim
@tomic601 Thanks for the heads up on the Micromega. I saw it but i have a policy of buying from dealers gear I speak to them about or demo. I am picking their brains and learning so I value that and want to compensate them for that. I spoke to a dealer on the Micromega and its suitability for my room. I would have never had figured that one out myself. One of the reasons I ask so many questions here is so I can figure stuff on my own and buy used. :)
Over the past 20 years (maybe 10 in audio) I have bought about 50% of my gear used or demo so I am not averse to that. In many cases, I prefer it. Great to see your input on this thread.
@tomic601 , I broached this with John Rutan and he seemed to poo poo the idea of digital room correction. I am intrigued by it, as Almarg seems to find his DEQX to be a valuable addition. Are you using it with your systems? B
@gdnrbob Thanks for your feedback. You may not have seen the photo of my room on the virtual systems section. My room is rather full of stuff and it will have more soon once the 9 GIK room treatments arrive.
Some of the larger speakers mentioned here will stay in my memory bank for my next audio project (later in 2019). My wife and I are in agreement that we want to get some music downstairs where the baby plays all day. We both feel music is important in a person’s life and my baby loves music like the old man. So in that light I will also start thinking about a floor stander for the rather large space downstairs. It is 21’L x 17’W x 18’H. This room also opens up to another large family room perpendicular to it. We are going to put a large speaker in what it essentially the baby’s play room. This speaker may get beaten up my kid but so what.
Since I am rather settled on my speaker choices for my office I started rereading some reviews of integrated’s that I am interested in. The sound that I am trying to improve on include:
1) Remove some rare fatigue from the LS50s in my room via treatments. I expect a bigger speaker to have fatigue in my untreated room (100%). I am very sensitive to this. BTW - opening up my room entrance door is an amazing upgrade to my room (thanks to GIK for that one).
2) I want a large sound stage (as large as the room can accommodate) with focused images and placement of performers in the stage.
3) I want the speakers to disappear.
I know the things I have listed are a function of the complete system working in synergy with the speaker, electronics and room. Reading some reviews of the integrated’s I am interested in was interesting because some of the reviews stated the occurrence of #2 and #3. So I think I am on the correct path.
Luxman 509x - have not heard yet, but I know where to hear it with my preferred list of speakers
Hegel H590 - have not heard yet, no local dealers have it yet. I have heard top of the line Hegels with KEF Blade (also H360) and l liked them a lot. Liked the top end Luxman more than the Hegel’s I heard but the H590 is supposed to be a different kind of animal from Hegel. Considering buying this unheard, especially for downstairs.
Mark Levinson 585 - have heard and liked it a lot. It does #2 and #3 well with Magico A3’s
Mark Levinson 5805 (not heard yet, maybe not released yet)
Krell i300 - may look into this one too, a local KRELL dealer I visited in the past should have this. The price and connectivity are the best of all the integrated’s on my list.
I am a little late to this thread. But, knowing ctsooner (I own his old Treo's). I have to say, that they will not 'overwhelm' you listening area. Period. To add to your confusion, let me add that I also have an office (10x10x8) and am using the Vandy VLR's with a pair of HSU subs. I have to say it plays very nicely. I have the speakers mounted near the ceiling and directed toward my desk-so nearfield listening. Non fatiguing, and very engaging. I wouldn't call it the best setup, but for work it certainly is more than most.
My Treo/2wq setup resides in my LR/DR (12x18x8-speakers near the middle-9', and about 2 feet from the walls). Actually, it is a bit more complex than that, but you'd need a picture. Suffice it to say, they aren't in the 'best' of spots. To my ears, the Treo's sound as natural and unassuming as a speaker can be. I hate to be confined to a single area when I listen. In fact, my main seat is almost directly in front of the left speaker. I don't hear that speaker beaming directly at me, but a full sound stage. An imaginary hall that emanates between/behind the speakers. I can sing praises for these speakers for a long time, but the choice is yours. If you like, I can give you more details, rather than hijack a thread. Bob
yyz, fully understand. In the past I've used full range speakers in smaller rooms like yours and never felt I was missing anything or that the bass was too much for the room as I listened at lower levels (ti was a second system for me), but I fully understand where you are coming from. Even visually you can be overwhelmed by a floor stander in a small room even though the footprint can similar.
I heard the KEF LS50W. I may sell my Linn Kiko system for these if I can figure out video switching, lol.
I got a quick listen to the small ref that you are looking at. Nice speaker.
I really enjoy the Harbeth's. To my ear they are just a wonderful sounding speaker. They are what they are. Not the last statement on anything, but they make anything fun to listen to.
TAD are much more money as you said. Do they give you that much more enjoyment? If so and you dont' care about the money, then.....
All good choices, so you can't go wrong with any. Figure out which ones have synergy with your system as that's the most important thing right now as you narrowed to three choices. Good luck. Fun thread.
yyz, fully understand. In the past I've used full range speakers in smaller rooms like yours and never felt I was missing anything or that the bass was too much for the room as I listened at lower levels (ti was a second system for me), but I fully understand where you are coming from. Even visually you can be overwhelmed by a floor stander in a small room even though the footprint can similar.
I heard the KEF LS50W. I may sell my Linn Kiko system for these if I can figure out video switching, lol.
I got a quick listen to the small ref that you are looking at. Nice speaker.
I really enjoy the Harbeth's. To my ear they are just a wonderful sounding speaker. They are what they are. Not the last statement on anything, but they make anything fun to listen to.
TAD are much more money as you said. Do they give you that much more enjoyment? If so and you dont' care about the money, then.....
All good choices, so you can't go wrong with any. Figure out which ones have synergy with your system as that's the most important thing right now as you narrowed to three choices. Good luck. Fun thread.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
