Big speakers in small room at moderate volume levels

@audioconnection,

That sounds interesting. I have actually heard the Vandersteen Treo CT a few hours after I had heard the Magico A3, but at a different dealer. Richard Vandersteen was actually there that day giving some talk but I missed his talk because I was so enamored with the A3 at the other dealer. The CT sounded great when I heard it. I did not know about the Quatro CT.

@tatyana69 / @alex_bolonikov  In the small room do you limit the volume so you do not get fatigue? From the replies I see here, I am starting to think a large speaker may work if I keep the volume down.  
 
The Vandersteen Quattro Wood CT speaker also seems rather interesting and I need to do more research on this. I do not need a large sweet spot in the office system since it is only myself that will listen there. I also do not move around much while I "work".

@kahlenz The KEF LS50 sounds real good in this room but there are limits to this speaker. My audio memory of my A3 demo keeps bugging me that the LS50 is a small speaker and the sound could be fuller. I do not dislike subwoofers. I like them integrated buy a designer into a floor stander. Saying that I have read that the Lyngdorf 3400 is rather good at integrating a sub.

So far from this thread I have gather a lot of useful info. I have the following items that I want to do next.

1) I will definitely check out the Vandersteen Quattro CT
2) I will check out the TAD ME1. I have a "local" dealer who carries this speaker. He also has the LS50 and KEF Reference 1. I do like concentric drivers (also had an Thiel SCS4 a few years ago)
3) I will try and get the A3 into my room on a demo basis.
4) I will see if I can get a demo Lyngdorf. Adding DSP to the sound is a big question mark since I have not heard it. There is also software based DSP which I have read maybe not as good as the Lyngdorf but I can research this more.
5) The KEF Reference 1 is my safety net speaker for the office and should work without room correction. if I go that route I will then end up with 3 KEF models in the house, not much variety there.

@glupson I need to keep the office closed because I am remotely connected to a lot of live production software systems. My 2 1/2 year old kid loves to come over to my desks and click the mouse on the computers. The KEF LS50 system was his system until my recent move. I sold my other system which was previously used in the office. He will get the LS50 back once I get a new office system.

@lancelock Thanks for the recommendation. You sold me the Benchmark AHB2 amp which I loved and recently sold. I may buy that back again once I get the new system. The TAD and KEF Reference 1 are likely going to be huge improvements on the LS50. Do you use the TAD ME1 in a small room?
 

@pokey77 I was reading some of your posts recently. I thought I read you had bought the TAD ME1 and TAD electronics. I was assuming from Excel Audio in Newport. I was thinking of going to some audio store in LA and checking out something in the Harbeth line last year, but there are so many models so I dropped that idea. I will take a drive down to LA and check out the model you listed.

I have had a lot of different amps on the LS50 over the past 5 years.

Bryston 7B-SST
Bryston 4B-SST
Parasound A23
Benchmark AHB2 (the best so far)
Peachtree Nova 150 (mix of the Bryston and Parasound and my 2nd favorite)


@ohlala If you look at pokey77’s statements above on the KEF R1 and the TAD ME1. It seems to me he preferred the TAD by a significant margin.

@d2girls I love the new KEF speakers. I have heard the KEF Reference 1 sound awful and also excellent. It was bad when firing into glass windows at a dealer. Headaches ensued  and it was rather unlistenable. Then at a show, it sounded great in a largish room driven by Wyred4Sound Class D monoblocks. 

Once my kid is older I hope to buy the KEF Blade for the downstairs living room. The KEF Ref 1 has a slice of the Blade sound. The Ref 1 is geared towards smaller spaces. My small office space maybe a little on the border of acceptability.

@ kahlenz What I mean by "full sound" is the the LS50 compared to both the A3 and KEF Reference 1 do not have the same size soundstage and depth. The separation of the instruments was also better with the bigger speakers. I was able to visualize the performance way better with the A3 and KEF.

One examples is the TASH SULTANA Blackbird track from FLOW STATE. When I hear it at home with the LS50 it sounds great because the music is awesome. However, when I heard it at the dealer with the A3 it was like TASH was wailing away on the guitar in front of me. I was at her recording studio and felt emotionally connected to the performance.

Same thing with Pink Floyd’s Comfortably Numb. When I heard it on the KEF Ref 1 it was almost like when I saw Floyd live in Toronto years ago. With the LS50 it sounds great but it does not take me back to that show.

So maybe the Full sound I say is not a good technical audiophile term. I guess I am referring to my emotional reaction to the tunes.

With regards to subs, I have a small room and a lot of computer equipment (super quiet) and I do not want to add subs to add to the collection. I also do not want to learn how to integrate subs into my monitors. 

@tomic6011 My current LS50 and Peachtree is NOT fatiguing. However, in the past I have had bigger speakers in various room sizes, Thiel SCS4, Revel Salon 1, NHT 2.9. These speakers overloaded some of the rooms  and gave me headaches. Now the amps I was using at the time were not considered the smoothest so that could be a factor.

One thing that I realized was that I had my head very close to the back wall in the bad sounding situations. I was reading the Vandersteen setup manual today for the Quattro CT and in it it stated to add some dampening to the wall behind your head if the head is close to the wall. My current office has the same positioning where I am sitting right next to a partial wall. No fatigue with the LS50 but I was thinking with a bigger speaker it would be deja vu again.

@pokey77  I found a Harbeth dealer in Ventura, CA and I happen to be going to Ventura in 2 weeks. I have contacted him tonight to schedule a demo.

@dbphd1 Thanks for the offer. I have heard the KEF Ref 1 almost a half dozen times at dealers and various local shows. So that is why it is on my initial list for this difficult small room. I think it is one of the great ones I have heard (for a smallish speaker and price).

My issue was whether the R1 would not overload my room without DSP. My guess is that it would not. I imagine you have a bigger room than the room specs I listed in my initial post.

To summarize again since this thread is getting a bit long, the room is 11L x 10W X 9H (+ opened up closet space, 4L x 5W x 9H). I am only 8 feet from my current LS50 and my head is directly beside a back wall that opens up to the closet space.

I will add some dampers to the back wall when I get a bigger speaker.

Just emailed the local Harbeth dealer and he is backordered on all the Harbeth models but in mid-January when new stock arrives I can do a home demo with the SHL5+. He suggested the 30.2 may be a better fit in my room over the SHL5+ but that home demo will tell me if it sounds right for me.

@ianrodger32 I am not a fan of horns. I have heard them a few times and they did not work for me. The Peachtree amp is a temporary amp for the office. I will upgrade the Peachtree to the new Nova 500. It will then go along with the KEF LS50 to a bedroom or family room.

A new integrated is destined for the office along with speakers.

The following integrated amps are on my short list.

1) Mark Levinson 585 (or the newer lower powered variant due out in Spring 2019)
2) Hegel H590
3) Luxman 509x
4) Lyngdorf 3400

These amps are overkill for the office but I will eventually move the integrated from the office down to the living room to power my future big rig.

@pokey77  Don't tell me this, now I have to go hear it.

@tomic601 Thanks for the invite and info on Lambvin in Oceanside. I was wondering where I would go for something like that. I heard the Treo CT at Sunny’s a few weeks ago after my demo with the Magico A3. Too many people in the CT demo to really hear it.

@pokey77 I am looking forward to the demo of the Harbeth, especially in my home. I emailed a dealer of the Lyndorf and he also happened to be a dealer for Harbeth. He told me that the Harbeth and Lyngdorf sound good together and he just recently sold that combo. This dealer is out of state so I would only get the Lyngdorf from him (if I go that route). The local dealer who will allow for the home demo of the Harbeth thinks my room is too small for the SHL5+. So that is why I revisited the DSP room correction. I want to fit the largest speaker I can in this room.

The Luxman 509x is something I have been eyeing for a long time. There is a thread started by me on this even before it was released for sale. My only 2 issues are if the speaker is too large it may not work in my room (without DSP). Though it does have tone controls (something to investigate). The other minor issue is that I would need to buy a DAC.

@paullb I am looking for a bit of a different sound from the KEF because I already have the LS50 (will never sell it) and I hope to buy the KEF Blade 2 (if my lottery ticket hits). So I am trying to avoid buying the KEF Reference 1 and try something that is real enjoyable. Something I would like to listen for a min of 8 hours a day. I am going to go to the Harbeth audition with the hope I love it and buy it. I want the Harbeth to play something like CHINATOWN by Thin Lizzy to really move me. 

I am also going to try to see in the Luxman 509x will work with the Harbeth. One way to do that is to see if the Harbeth will work with my current Peachtree NOVA 150 in this room. If it does, then I do not need the Lyngdorf and can try the Luxman.

I was thinking about both the Vandersteen Quattro and TAD ME1 and decided that they are not something to persue. The Vandersteen because of the size and weight. I will post some photos of my office. Too much stuff already in it. The TAD because, after reading some reviews, its seems like maybe a better version of the KEF Reference 1. The R1 is much cheaper and will make me happy if I go that way.

I emailed a local dealer who carries Harbeth SHL5+, TAD Me1, and KEF. Reference 1. I described my situation and included photos of my room. He is not big on DSP so he is steering me towards an all analog solution. Which is fine and my preferred approach, though the DSP with the Lyngdorf  will be the fall back approach. I am sure that DSP will work given my conversations with various folks here and the Lyngdorf dealer I spoke too.

This dealer said that he has sold both Harbeth SHL5+  and TAD Me1 systems to people with similar sized rooms. However, he said that room treatments were required to make the sound perfect. He suggested a room treatment company that seemed rather expensive so I started looking around. He did say that the KEF Reference 1 would be a little too big for my room (without DSP correction).

The first company I called was the one mentioned by @tomic601 , Lamvin in Oceanside. They told me to try some wall panels right behind my seating position that would cost about $1000. 

The other company I located has an interesting mobile panel that would be preferable because I would not have to make holes in the wall. Here is the link for that.
https://artnovion.com/categories/2-residential-hi-fi

I will upload some photos of my room if anyone is interested in seeing it. My room is messy still since I am moving into this house.

Can anyone give some advice on these panels. I am ready to buy the room treatment now and have that in place before my auditions next month with the Harbeth. I will also go to hear the TAD at the dealers demo room.

@tomic601 Fantastic info. Thank you. I submitted my info to GIK Acoustics and will listen to their feedback and suggestions. They look like a good choice for the residential customer.

The curtain company looks interesting and will research them after GIK gets back to me.

@crosstrek I conversed with someone on A'Gon who had the KEF R1 and the Lyngdorf in a room around my size and he was raving about the quality of sound he had.

I wanted to try to correct my room outside of DSP before I try DSP. Along that vein, I just completed a transaction with  GIK acoustics for room treatments. They looked at my A'Gon photos and gave me a quote. I called them up and we spoke for about 45 minutes. In the end I spent  a little under $1000.00 (including shipping).  I will have these items a little after Christmas.

With the treated room as a baseline I will try to do some home demos. The guy on the GIK side mentioned to me that I may have more options in speakers now than I was considering before.

I will post pictures of the treated room. 

@tatyana6986 With regard to the Blades. It is "different strokes for different folks". In my opinion the Blades are my all-time favorite speaker. The things I like in reproduced sound are evident in the Blades. Holographic image, large soundstage, pin-point imaging. However, the Blades are for another day and another system (living room).

@djfst158 You read my mind about the intermedia sized model I am looking at it that way too. Once the room treatments are in place I will listen to my LS50's for a while and then try a few bigger speakers.

A couple of things mentioned to me by the sound engineer at GIK Acoustics. The removal of the closet doors in my room has made a nasty bass trap. He always recommend closing such spaces but, I of course, cannot.

The simple fact of opening up my room entrance door will also make the room sound much bigger. Once my toddler goes to pre-school in January 2019 I will be able to do that.

I just heard back form the Southern Cal Magico dealer I went to demo the A3. They allow home demo's of the speaker. This was some welcome news. Now i will know for certain that whatever purchase decision I make I will have zero doubt about it.

@dmbwire One reason I jumped in quickly to room treatments was because of a friend of mine who has a room slightly bigger than mine with Spendor D7’s. His system sounded rather good with the treatments. Prior to the treatments he said his sound was really disappointing, though I never heard the room without treatments. He has much longer audiophile lineage than myself so I took his advice to heart about placing a lot of value on treatments.

The treatments I just purchased include 9 items. The comparable item in my list to your treatment (panel directly behind me) costs $75. So I imagine that is somewhat close to the cost of those designer blankets.

Having my kid when I am older has given me the opportunity be able to spend 24 x 7 with my kid. Which is the best thing I have ever done.

@paullb Thanks for that feedback. Out of the 4 integrated’s I have narrowed it down too only the Luxman 509x has tone controls. I would imagine that the Lyngdorf takes the concept of tone controls to another level. I have chosen these units for consideration because of quality and they should also be rather easy to resell. I am going to try these first before I try an equalizer though that was in my thoughts.

I just sold my older office system, Audience 1+1 V3 | Benchmark DAC3 | Benahcmark AHB2. They were easy to sell because they are popular and it did not hurt that they are not very expensive. The integrated’s on my list maybe a touch harder to resell, due to cost, they are all very popular units.

BTW - when I measured my room again for the GIK treatments I found out I have 1/2 foot more length and width. Not much but every little bit helps. Also opening up the door when playing music is also a great way to reduce the bass.

@kstirman I have narrowed down my list to Harbeth SHL5+ (home demo), KEF Reference 1, maybe TAD Me1 (price issue here), and Magico A3 (now that I can have a home demo of the A3 after treatments). 

The Magico A3 has a very large soundstage, the sound separates itself away from the speaker,  and does lot of things I like. The A3 also has a slim form factor, about as wide as the KEF LS50 (or only slightly more). This is the speaker I want to make work in this room. The others are fall back options which I am sure will work after the room treatments (+ maybe Lyngdorf).

The Harbeth SHL5+, KEF R1, and TAD Me1 are all available for me to demo in the same store (they also have the LS50). 

You mentioned Spendor, I do not think the Spendor will suit me, though I did like the Spendor D7 a lot at my buddies house. I cannot see myself owning that one for long term use.

@pokey77 The A3 is not the best speaker I heard with regards to sound but it does 2 things that are real important to me. It does not sound like the sound is coming from the speaker (it disappears) and the sound stage is large and realistic. Nothing as good as the KEF Blade in this or any regard but pretty good nevertheless.

l also like the sound of the Vivid speakers better but they are too expensive (including new smaller Kiva line) and the Giya are side firing. There were some Maggie like panels (a few different brands) I heard at shows that I liked more than the A3 but they were huge, So the A3 is a good compromise for something to listen to while I work.

I appreciate your suggestion of the Harbeth for listening while I work. I am excited to hear that because it is going to sound different from what I have heard in the past and it is also supposed to sound pleasing. Different from what I have considered my fav’s in the past but I like a lot of different things. The front and side port are something that I have been thinking about favorably for my space.

I actually was not initially impressed by the Magico’s that much. I heard a lot of different Magico models $50K+ (via LA Audio Society). I would never have spent that much on them because they did not do much for me relative to their price. However, at a LA Audio Show a few years ago there were 2 vendors playing Magico S3MKII and I really liked it. I spent a long time at those 2 rooms. That experience made me want to consider the cheaper A3 for an office setting. I am glad I did because the A3 reminded me of the S3MKII sessions. Though the S3MKII sounded a lot better to me.

I must say that my initial experience with GIK has been tremendous. The guy that remotely helped me (Mike Major) was a sound engineer/musician and we had an great talk about sound and rooms. I learned a ton in that short call. I was also very happy to see them come under my estimated budget of $1K. The shipping of panels to California was $230, so if you live close to Georgia, the cost of what I am trying is much cheaper.

@andy8400 Your post got me thinking and I realized I already have an equalizer. I use ROON for my digital playback (about 80% of my playback rest analog) and ROON has a DSP feature. I am using the upsampling feature but never tried the equalizer. I am going to figure out how that works over the Christmas holidays.

@mushka I will send an email to my buddy and post back here using your screen id tags for you get an notification.

@mushka Here is a quote from my buddy about Spendor D7 | Room Size | GIK:Treatments

"They want you to stay as far away as possible from the back wall. Which I would love to do but with a small room 11x13 is simply not possible. I was too close to the speakers and could not enjoy the music at all. Too bright and loud.

I then consulted with my dealer in San Francisco who told me to cover the back wall with Gik 242 2” thick panels or even the 6 inch panels without diffuser plate. So I have 2 thick panels in the middle and 3 reg panels on the back wall almost covering the back wall. I got the largest size ones. Then I could move the couch closer to the back wall. This is a fake attempt to make the wall disappear in the back behind you. I would still want a larger room so I can be away from back wall and away from speakers and speakers are away from front wall. I also have the free stand bass panels on each side between the speaker and listening chair. And I have two very old bass traps in the corners behind the speakers.

I must say that the GIK stuff makes a huge difference. When I got the system and it was broken in for months it was still unlistenable. Lot of echo and brightness in the room But with room treatments everything changed. And it tamed down the room. I love GIK products. I added few at a time due to cost and to try to experiment and fine tune the room with placement of traps and speaker and seat positioning experiments.

I do feel that even though spender is the smallest floor stander I could find at the time. It’s still a little too powerful for the room I have. I think spendor will open up a lot more in a medium sized room. Not a small sized room. "

yyzSantaBarbara:
I my room, the wall behind me opens up to the closet space and I also have a door entrance that I can open. So my issues are slightly different my my buddies.

@leotis  Thanks for the feedback. Exactly the type of info I was looking for.  I was thinking this over and I think i should buy the Lyngdorf 3400. With the Lyngdorf in the mix,  I will have room treatments,  DSP, and an equalizer via ROON as options to tame the room. 

My buddy with the Spendor tells me that the TAD ME1 would be the way he would go.

Wow I wrote a lot here. Sorry about that.

Before anyone starts getting upset with Audiotroy understand that I, the OP, appreciate his feedback. I actually spoke with Audiotroy (Dave) on the phone a month or 2 before I moved and he told me that the KEF Reference 1 and Micromega sound great in a small space (I did not know room dimensions then). His feedback on the Micromega gave me incentive to look into the Lyngdorf because I have trouble with the idea of a Micromega cooling fan in a small space (as mentioned in the beginning of this thread). In my space I have 3 computers that are dead silent; five computer screens now and at one time 7. I also have made holes in the walls to get access to noisy computer servers that I have in other rooms (so I cannot hear them in the office). I have gone to great pains to make this room very quiet and I would be real upset if I were to hear a fan come on. Maybe it would be drowned out in the music but I got strong hearing and I would likely notice the slightest fan noise.

If I went to my safe fall back plan, I would be buying the KEF Ref1 from Audiotroy. I have heard it so many times at shows I do not need a store demo. I would say the chances of me eventually getting the KEF Ref1 are still about 50% because I know it will fit the room, relative cost, and I know I will like it. However, as I mentioned in the beginning of this thread. I am trying not to eventually have 3 KEF speakers in my home. If the Lyngdorf is not an ideal match for the KEF, as Audiotroy is stating (same thing also nagging me), the Luxman 509x would be a good candidate because it is warmish sounding and it has tone controls. I know that tone controls are a non-starter for a lot of people here but I think in my situation they have a place. The KEF Ref1 will likely not have that much issues in my space after treatments so maybe DSP is not needed. Another integrated amp that may work is the new Mark Levinson 5805 (no tone controls though). It is cheaper (MSRP $8500) and has a built-in DAC.

Saying all of this. Now that Dave has given the TAD ME1 such a glowing endorsement, even over his own speaker, I will definitely give it strong consideration when I go to audition it in Los Angeles. My audiophile buddy was also raving about the TAD ME1 along with pokey77. When I looked at photos of the ME1, I was thinking how much better can it be over the KEF Ref1. Both speakers have a concentric driver combo (which I like a lot) and a separate bass driver, with the TAD costing a heck of a lot more. However, with so many people coming to the same conclusion, that it is better then the KEF Ref1, I will give it serious consideration.

@audiotroy I appreciate the advice. I have learned from A’gon posters, especially you, that the synergy between components in a system is paramount. Some of the posters on this thread have spoken glowingly on the Harbeth SHL5+. That speaker is supposed to sound a little warmer than my traditional cup of tea. However, that is OK, maybe I need to expand my horizons. I will know soon enough after I demo them at a store and then at home (if I like them). The Lyngdorf is likely a good match for the Harbeth. I actually got feedback that this is indeed a good synergistic match. The A3 concerns me being paired with the Lyngdorf. I am not so sure if they are a good match because the A3 has been described by many posters on A’gon as requiring warmer sounding electronics. However, I know the A3 won’t fit into my room without some sort of DSP or similar sort of adjustments. The A3 is a Hail Mary pass with my room.

I was looking into big speakers with active room bass correction. The 2 I know are the Persona 9H and the Vandersteen Quattro Wood CT that was discussed on this thread. I got an email from Vandersteen company about the Quattro Wood CT in my small room and they said MAYBE and they did not sound too confident.

@tomic601 I have a Sonnare MicroRendu so I could in theory move my music server running ROON to another room. I have a few super powerful hardware servers (noisy) in other parts of the house. However the current machine in the office is silent with most default operating services turned off. I will play with the ROON equalization to see what it can do.

@mr_m I heard the Vandersteen Treo CT within 1/2 hour after listening to the A3 (at a different store) and I thought it was good but it would have the same issues as the A3 in my room. Your room has a little bit of extra space that makes all the difference in the world. Take a look at the photos I have posted of my room and you will see that it is small. I have 0 space between me and the wall directly behind me.

@audiotroy Thanks for the additional feedback.

My audio magazine research into the Harbeth SH:5+ also indicates it is a good speaker at all volume levels. It is also supposed to have good off-axis sound. I will definitely test these 2 aspects because there are very important for my situation. There is some doubt in my mind if they are high resolution enough for me but the demo will tell.

My comments on the Micromega are based on a review of it from an Australian audio mag. That guy commented on the fan. However, I will take your word for it that you guys have not heard it. Maybe the reviewer’s testing was outside the bounds of normal listening (stress testing it?). Like I said on the phone I appreciate your knowledge given here and I have learned a lot from it.

I am going to have a listen to the TAD ME1 in Los Angeles with the Luxman 509x. I have dealer, Excel Audio, who I started an email dialogue a year ago on the Luxman units and he also has been great at giving audio advice. I am thinking I may also do the Harbeth demo there because of the Luxman 509x unit. I would lose out on a home demo of an used Harbeth unit but there are other advantages.

I also have had a fantastic experience at Brooks Berden in LA, demoing the fabulous Magico A3 and Mark Levinson gear. The guys there are super knowledgeable.

Chances are I will get some gear from all 3 of these great audio folks mentioned in this post.

The GIK Acoustics room treatments are expected to arrive in about 10 days.

I am currently listening to Siamese Dream by the Smashing Pumpkins. This one hurt my ears right now with the KEF LS50 and Peachtree Nova 150 in my office. One of the few recordings I will tolerate even though it is fatiguing.

Once the GIK panels arrive this recording is the first one I will play to see if the acoustics have improved.

BTW - I have an eclectic taste in music. I just happen to be in a hard rock listening mode the last few weeks.

https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/forum/the-basic-facts-about-harbeth-owning-use/77421-model-choic...

I was reading the Harbeth forum and came across this thread (includes a post by the designer Alan Shaw). Seems the front port on the Harbeth does not really make placement of the Harbeth any more flexible closer to the rear wall in a small room. It does not matter whether front or rear port. I am no expert just the messenger here. 

Anyways, just doing some research on Harbeth while I get ready to demo these speakers.

Actually I have been pretty consistent. I stated in the middle of this thread that I have narrowed it down to  3 speakers for the office (in no order)

- KEF Ref1 
- TAD ME1 (4+ good recommendations for this one but $$$)
- Harbeth SHL5+ (something different to break the KEF monopoly, and cheaper)

The following are my integrated amp considerations:
- 3 AB integrateds, Mark Levinson, Hegel H590, Luxman 509x
- Lyngdorf with DSP Room Perfect system

I am trying to avoid buying a separate DAC since this is for my office and I want simplicity and less boxes (though not a deal breaker)

BTW - @audiotroy   your recommendation on the TAD ME1 made me seriously consider spending the considerably more money on this. I had eliminated it from consideration due to price.

The KEF R1 and TAD ME1 are along the lines of what I regularly have been listening to at home, the KEF LS50 + Thiel SCS4 speakers. I took a detour for 11 months to buy the Audience 1+1 V3 dipole speaker. These are all small speakers because, in the past 10 years, I had limited space. I have a dedicated office now in my new home and I only have the LS50 left. I like concentric drivers but I am going to give the Harbeth a chance.

If I did not have my current room issues I would most likely buy the Mark Levinson integrated. Depending on the new speaker's power requirements, either the ML 585 or the new ML 5805. Why this model? I have demoed the ML 585 and found that I liked it and it delivered the specific sound qualities I was looking for, including sounding good at low volumes.

However, I think I may need room correction. So I am holding out on getting an Class AB amp until I buy the speakers. I will test the new speakers with my Class D Peachtree Nova 150 first to see if DSP is needed. If it sounds like the speaker is too big for the room then I will do the following:

1) If I buy the Harbeth SHL5+ I will buy the Lyngdorf  2170 (with DSP Room perfect system). I have been reading Harbeth designer,  Alan Shaw's, post on the HUG forum and have read his views on DSP, near-field positioning, front and back port and rear wall placement, music types suitable for Harbeth. All of these point to suitability for my situation. Only question is whether I will like the Harbeth. People are pairing Harbeth with Lyngdorf.

2) If I stretch $$$ wise to buy the TAD ME1 then I need to see if the TAD ME1 is suitable for the Lyngdorf. Is the TAD warmish or dry. If it is warmish, like the Harbeth, then I will can go with the Lyngdorf.  If the Lyngdorf and the TAD are not good synergy and I need room correction, the Micromega M-One maybe something to revisit. This is based on @audiotroy  statement on the quietness of the Micromega. Another option is not to buy the TAD because it is too big.

I have the opportunity to buy a USED Harbeth with 2 year warranty from a local dealer who will allow me to test this at HOME with my Peachtree Nova 150. I have not decided on doing this because there is another local dealer that has the Harbeth, TAD, and KEF Ref1 all available for demo at his store. Though I already know what the great KEF Ref1 can do. I will decide which local dealer to deal with after I get my treatments in place and test the LS50 with the Peachtree Nova.

A slight complication on the Lyngdorf is that I read somewhere that room treatments are not recommended with the Lyngdorf. This was only the opinion of 1 person (dealer?). Guys on the A'gon Lyngdorf thread say this is not a true statement.  I have contacted Lyngdorf directly today to get their feedback.

BTW - my musical tastes run the gamut. I only mentioned the head banger rock groups because they were what I was enjoying as I was posting on this thread. My tastes run from Jazz, Funk, Soul, Rap, Rock, Electronic, Jayhawk's like Country, Reggae, and recently a lot of music from outside of North America. As I write this, I am listening to Rick James Street Songs Deluxe Edition and loving it (but I need some treatments in this room ASAP).

@djones51 Thanks for the feedback on that M100.

I should have also posted on my prior post that based on feedback from you guys here. I am holding off the Magico A3 from consideration for now. It sounds like that speaker goes down too low for such a small space. I think the Lyngdorf guys may disagree with me but I will go small first. The A3 may also be best served with warmish electronics. 

I will first try a smaller speaker that does not go as low and live with that for a while. However, based on how the room treatments work and if I also get a Lyngdorf a bigger speaker maybe something in the distance future.

Feedback from Lyngdorf on whether Room Treatments can be used with Lyngdorf Room Perfect:

"hi
you do not ’need to’ remove anything
- but if you have ex. a bass-trap, we would recommend removing it, as having RoomPerfect removing energy from the signal is better for the speakers, than removing energy from the room through the bass trap

Best regards
Flemming Smith
LYNGDORF AUDIO"

The same sentiment was expressed by Alan Shaw on the HUG forum on the DSP discussion and Harbeth speakers.

OK, first thing to try is to make the room work with the GIK acoustic treatments and without the Room Perfect DSP. So I will try with the only amp I have at hand, my Peachtree Nova 150 and the Harbeth for a home demo. So I guess I have picked the local dealer for the Harbeth.

@ctsooner  This discussion has led me get to the position now where I would change the thread title from "Big speakers in small room at moderate volume levels" to Stand mount speakers in small room with big sound at moderate volume". I am thinking why buy a speaker with more bass than the room can handle to only have to tame it with room treatments and analog or digital acoustic corrections. I am essentially throwing money away. 

I have realized, with the help of posters here, that a stand mount like the KEF LS50 but with bigger sound is the way to go. So the following are going to be demoed by me in early 2019 after I have time to get acquainted with the new GIK room acoustics and existing KEF LS50 (treatments arriving this week). The sound I have now is not ideal and I am certain due to the untreated room. 

- TAD ME1
- Harbeth SHL5+
- KEF Reference 1

One important consideration that I have pointed out is good sound at low volumes so I can listen and enjoy while the baby is asleep. The 3 listed above are supposed to be good in that light. The demo will tell. I know the KEF R1 will agree with me if the other 2 do not.

Today, I am actually putting my focus on integrated amps. I have 4 that I have narrowed my choices too (see above) and just going over the pros and cons of each of those 4.

Last month, I did hear the Treo CT with Bryston electronics (cubed series) and it was good but I think for my ears and seating position they will sound too big for the room.

@tomic601 Thanks for the heads up on the Micromega. I saw it but i have a policy of buying from dealers gear I speak to them about or demo. I am picking their brains and learning so I value that and want to compensate them for that. I spoke to a dealer on the Micromega and its suitability for my room. I would have never had figured that one out myself. One of the reasons I ask so many questions here is so I can figure stuff on my own and buy used. :)

Over the past 20 years (maybe 10 in audio) I have bought about 50% of my gear used or demo so I am not averse to that. In many cases, I prefer it. Great to see your input on this thread.

@gdnrbob Thanks for your feedback. You may not have seen the photo of my room on the virtual systems section. My room is rather full of stuff and it will have more soon once the 9 GIK room treatments arrive.

Some of the larger speakers mentioned here will stay in my memory bank for my next audio project (later in 2019). My wife and I are in agreement that we want to get some music downstairs where the baby plays all day. We both feel music is important in a person’s life and my baby loves music like the old man. So in that light I will also start thinking about a floor stander for the rather large space downstairs. It is 21’L x 17’W x 18’H. This room also opens up to another large family room perpendicular to it. We are going to put a large speaker in what it essentially the baby’s play room. This speaker may get beaten up my kid but so what.

Since I am rather settled on my speaker choices for my office I started rereading some reviews of integrated’s that I am interested in. The sound that I am trying to improve on include:

1) Remove some rare fatigue from the LS50s in my room via treatments. I expect a bigger speaker to have fatigue in my untreated room (100%). I am very sensitive to this. BTW - opening up my room entrance door is an amazing upgrade to my room (thanks to GIK for that one).

2) I want a large sound stage (as large as the room can accommodate) with focused images and placement of performers in the stage.

3) I want the speakers to disappear.

I know the things I have listed are a function of the complete system working in synergy with the speaker, electronics and room. Reading some reviews of the integrated’s I am interested in was interesting because some of the reviews stated the occurrence of #2 and #3. So I think I am on the correct path.

Luxman 509x - have not heard yet, but I know where to hear it with my preferred list of speakers

Hegel H590 - have not heard yet, no local dealers have it yet. I have heard top of the line Hegels with KEF Blade (also H360) and l liked them a lot. Liked the top end Luxman more than the Hegel’s I heard but the H590 is supposed to be a different kind of animal from Hegel. Considering buying this unheard, especially for downstairs.

Mark Levinson 585 - have heard and liked it a lot. It does #2 and #3 well with Magico A3’s

Mark Levinson 5805 (not heard yet, maybe not released yet)

Krell i300 - may look into this one too, a local KRELL dealer I visited in the past should have this. The price and connectivity are the best of all the integrated’s on my list.

@justanotherhifiguy Is this the speaker you are considering?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=HB8MybMH&id=CF4936C85F6D756CDF2A517303...

If so, that is one big puppy.

I looked at the KEF Ref 1, 3, 5 manual and you are correct when it lists 3m for side wall boundary. Though my discussion with KEF USA rep and also a KEF dealer indicated that the REF 1 will work fine in my room. Dealer was recommending the Micromega with analog MARS room correction just to be safe. Told me to not use MARS if not needed. I decided to try room treatments first with my KEF LS50s then branch out to the bigger speaker once the acoustic panels are settle in the proper place.

If you take a look at KEF Reference systems in A’gon members virtual systems here you will see setups with much less than 3m side wall spacing. Heck, I have seen Ref 3 against the side wall in some dealer HT systems. A poster to this thread has a photo of his Ref 5 very close to the walls. So I think the KEF Ref manual’s statements are not the final word on this issue.

I even conversed with KEF Blade owners who have put the Blades in near-field setups in rooms about my size (they liked it). I am too chicken to do that myself, though I have contemplated it. The Blades are side firing so they are even worse than the Ref line for side wall issues. The issue with Ref’s is supposed to be putting them too close to the rear wall (from a dealer comment). However, as I posted above, Alan Shaw from Harbeth indicates that front port or rear port does not matter when it comes to bass output (maybe I am stating this incorrectly, I think I provided a link to Shaw’s comments earlier).

I also had a very large monitor speaker before in the Thiel SCS4. It also has concentric drivers and not as much bass as the Ref 1. However, it is almost as big as the Ref 1. I tried that speaker in a room about my current office size and it worked OK. I need some treatments behind my couch but it was not tragic.

The TAD ME1 that I am considering has some side port features that seem to indicate that it can be placed rather close to the side walls. Expensive speaker though.

@tomic601 My kid had a lot of fun the last 2 days. I spent 4 hours getting his toy (don’t even know what to call it) setup on Christmas eve. My wife’s idea of buying it. He was a happy camper to see it when he woke in the morning. Lot of fun seeing all the neighbourhood kids out on Christmas day playing with the new toys.

"I know someone w TREO who I trust who has Lyngdorf and he js estatic about the sound he is getting...I have yet to hear his system, when next in Atlanta, I hope to. H9mework for me." 

That is an interesting quote. I keep trying to dismiss the Lyngdorf but it keeps popping back up in 

@gdnrbob I have heard the most recent version of the Treo CT in Nov 2018. Mr. Vandersteen was in the room when they were being demoed. They sounded excellent.

@gdnrbob I am not considering the Treo CT for the office. I have decided to go with the stand mount monitor type speakers. I was just stating that I had recently heard the Treo CT at a dealer event.

Another late night written verbal diatribe follows below:

In all likelihood it will come down to the KEF Reference 1 (used or demo) or out of left field (for me) the Harbeth SHL5+ (used). The TAD ME1 is a severe long shot due to cost. I was also researching other stand mounts today, such as the Focal Supra No1, Paradigm Persona B, and some others that come up in comparison in reviews. However, none of them made me want to switch from the KEF Reference 1 or Harbeth options.

I am not saying these are the best 2 speakers I have considered but for my of-axis needs, my low volume needs, my desire for large soundstage and more bass, pinpoint imaging, my desire to occasionally play some head banger tunes, these 2 speaker seem to be the best choices (definitely the KEF not certain about Harbeth on a few of those characteristics).

I need to give my head a shake on the cost of this system. Main goal is to have something fun to listen to and non-fatiguing for about 8-10 hours a day. It does not have to be the ultimate reference quality system. I am supposed to be working after all.

I had an interesting email conversation with a reviewer from a popular online audio magazine this afternoon. I inquired about a standalone DAC he had reviewed and we then started a good conversation about buying a new system. He stated that if he was buying a new system today he would go for an integrated with a DAC built-in. He was of the opinion that the law of diminishing returns is being seen now with these new integrated models.  They are so good that it is hard to justify spending on separates, especially for my type of office system. This is also what I was thinking and it was good to hear it from someone in the audio field.

So with that in mind, the integrated I SHOULD buy is the Mark Levinson 5805 (125W @8Ohms + 250W @4Ohms). I have not heard it because it is not released yet but it should sound similar to the 585 which I heard but that one is $12K and has more power than I would need. Another integrated I will hear is the brand new Krell K-300i (with Krell's new XD technology). 

https://www.pursuitperfectsystem.com/krell-new-integrated-k300i-amplifier.html

The Krell integrated is a bit cheaper than the ML 5805 and has better connectivity options to match my existing gear needs. I have inquired with a local dealer to give me a call if and when they get it into their shop. I am not in a rush for the new integrated because I have the Peachtree to tie me over until I can get exactly what is the best choice.

The Lyngdorf is still around for consideration but I will now also included the Anthem STR line of electronics into the mix because both have room correction. I will only look into this if the Peachtree Nova 150 I own sounds fatiguing or bad driving whatever speakers I buy. I was going to go with an out of state dealer for the Lyngdorf, but I cannot get a home demo from him, and a local dealer has both Lyngdorf and Anthem so I will drive to them if DSP is something I need to tame my room.

I am dropping the Luxman 509x from consideration because I would need a DAC and interconnects and power cord for that DAC. Costs would run higher than need be if I got single Integrated-DAC unit. 

I am also be dropping the Hegel H590 from consideration also due to cost. A shame because given my past hearing Hegel driving KEF Blades I would think the H590 would have been my #1 choice.

I have decided a few months ago to forgo something that I thought I would definitely require in my next DAC. That is streaming directly into the DAC via Ethernet. I already have a microRendu Ethernet-to-usb device and that is good enough. So dropping the Ethernet to DAC need,  except in the case of the Lyndgdorf 3400 which has this feature already. 

I now think I can get a new office system for $15K or less doing the things in sound quality I initially asked about.

Had a few long conversations with a couple of local dealers today. Got prices and suggestions. Discussed with dealers with the following lines, Lyngdorf, Anthem STR integrated, Simaudio 390 network player/preamp, KRELL K-300i integrated, KEF Reference 1, and the Harbeth SHL5+ (not a dealer for the line). Interesting feedback on room correction software. They preferred room treatments over the DSP approaches. However, the room treatments may not always work but the DSP can save the day. I will see once my GIK room treatments are installed.

As I stated in my first post, the sensible thing for my tastes, is likely to get the KEF R1. However, I am not feeling the excitement about doing that. Reason is having 3 KEF’s in the house. I am feeling some excitement for the new KRELL K-300i integrated. If that sounds close to the ML 585 then it is a better option than the ML because of the better connectivity options.

I am going to take the advice of a few posters here and check out the Vandersteen Treo CT again. One thing I was reading negatively for me on the Treo CT is the suitability of this speaker for low volume listening. I have been working all night tonight while also doing some audio research and my current system sounds bad at the low volumes I currently have set. Some A’gon posters brought this up on other threads about the Treo CT. Any of the Treo CT champions on this thread care to offer an opinion on that.

I will also keep the Magico A3 for consideration. I can do a home demo but I looked at the size of the boxes (on the online manual) and I am not sure if it would fit in my SUV. My have to rent a pickup truck for that.

https://magico.net/support/A3/A3_Owner_Manual.pdf

I got to get a floor stander into my room for demo, to either buy it or finally get it out of my system (physically and mentally). One thing that I have noticed is that by opening up my door, my room has become acoustically much larger.

Note to self on small rooms

from @audiokinesis

So apparently good soundstaging over a wide sweet spot matters a lot to you. It does to me too. I like to feel immersed in the music, including the soundscape on the recording, and I like to share that experience with others without it being limited to the one or two best seats.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/curious-what-people-think-is-the-best-value-high-end-speaker-...

@audiotroy I know your suggestion is a winner with the KEF Reference 1, it is my fall back plan if all else fail. However, the plan of getting the Blade 2 from my large living room downstairs is becoming closer to happening. Wife is saying the other day we need to have some music around the kid, she likes the way the Blade 2 looks, and I love the sound of the Blade 2. This is happening once I feel the kid is a little wiser (see below). So getting the Reference 1 for the office is not that exciting in the context of 3 KEF’s in the house. I will call you on the Blade. You were the first person to discuss the Blade with me by email, maybe 6 years ago.

I am also starting to think I may not need any type of DSP for the office. This is because of the suggestion made to me by sound engineer Mike Major at GIK Acoustics. He told me to open my room door to make the room acoustically bigger. It has made a huge difference so far. He also said opening the window behind the left speaker would also help but I cannot torment my neighbors that way. My GIK acoustic panels should have shipped from Georgia to California 2 days ago. Those panels will help deaden the room and give me more options. My room is getting "bigger", speaker wise.
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7605

I can safely open the office room door now because my toddler, who is 2 years and 6 months old and already at 38 inches tall and 45+ lb. A big kid who can do damage to speakers. He has decided that when I am in the office and working that I am boring and and he leaves me to it. He is growing fast because when I started this thread I had to keep the door always closed to avoid him causing damage inside the room.

I spoke to a local KRELL dealer on Friday, he introduced me to KRELL via an in-store demo a few years ago, he is willing to give me a package of the KEF REF R1 and KRELL K-300i. If I go that way, I will get the demoed KRELL from him and get the KEF REF 1 from you. Seems fair to me.

Now with this supposed "magical" growth in my room I am going to consider 2 larger speakers that I have heard, the Magico A3 and Vandersteen Treo CT. All of this is to try and not buy the KEF Reference 1.

I am rather optimistic the Treo CT will work in my space. When I heard them the same day as the Magico A3 (1 hour apart), I thought the Treo CT had a more rounded sound than the Magico A3 and not as deep bass (a good thing). I think audiophiles call that a musical sound, which maybe more suitable for longer hours. I thought the A3 sound was more to my liking but I am not sure that 8 hours of the Magico A3 would be as good as 8 hours of the Treo CT. I am going to bring that Magico into my room to demo it. That is a lot of grunt work but I will do it (a 2 hour drive in LA traffic one way).

As you see I am still with the same small group of speakers that I triangulated with earlier on the thread.

if anyone cares, I will be hearing the following components in January to give me some more choices for my audio tool chest.

- Harbeth SHL5+ (maybe similar to the Treo CT but softer sounding, will do a home demo)
- Lyngdorf 2170 integrated (just in case I need DSP)
- Anthemt STR integrated (same store as Lyngdorf, may listen to it)
- Simaudio 390 (same store as Lyngdorf, in event I do not buy an integrated)
- a 390 and Benchmark AHB2 (I recently sold) maybe great with the Treo CT
- a 390 and a Jeff Roland amp maybe perfect with the Magico A3.

@tomic601  I spent a lot of time reading on A'gon posts by Treo CT owners, including a few by you. Lot of good info and undeniable passion for the Treo CT. 

@twoleftears  I have not been able to find that search functionality you are referring too. I had to do something like guess what room size a particular component would be used in and then filter by that room size. At least it narrows down the number of virtual systems to leaf through.

@mahlman As I listened to more speakers I found out that I the ones I liked the most are not the lowest priced ones, except KEF LS50. I have used as my primary (sometimes only speaker) anything from a Audioengine A2 ($200) to a Revel Salon  ($20,000). I have been fortunate to have audio stores or audio shows around the areas I have lived in, so I have heard a good amount of speakers.

We all have different tastes in music, hearing, and different rooms. A general statement like spending more on a speaker is a waste does not come across as accurate from my perspective. 

I have heard Klipsch before when my dad owned some in his HT system. Likely not the same model as you are mentioning.

Glad you have the $20K in your pocket. 

@audiotroy After watching those videos mentioned above it seems like the Magico A3 would really be tough to get into my room. Of course you did say that too. The Treo CT maybe possible. If you think driving to LA to bring a pair of Magico A3 's to my home is a PITA (it is). You should hear my 20 year old story of buying my Revel Salon 1 from Los Angeles when I lived near San Francisco. There were massive boxes that I drove by-myself to pick up, an open bed rental truck, a raging winter storm that I thought was going to destroy the speakers,10* hour drive, pea soup fog with 2 foot visibility on a major hwy, police pulling me over,. Fun times.

However, there is something that @tomic601 mentioned that I spent about 4 hours investigating yesterday that may give me some options.

@james63  Thanks for the awesome vidoo link. I just watched the following. Nice to hear some of the science behind the acoustics.

How To Get Good Bass In Small Rooms - www.AcousticFields.com 
What Are Standing Waves In Rooms? - www.AcousticFields.com 
How To Make Your Room Sound Larger - www.AcousticFields.com 

Unfortunately, I am sitting in the exact worst sport you have identified. There is nothing I can do about it because I need all those computer monitors on my desk. In the photo of my room you see the desk chair is against a 31 inch wall.

I am getting room treatment panels for that 31" wall and the closet space and it is supposed to make it appear as if the wall does not exist right behind me. That is the takeaway from the description my friend with the Spendor D7 gave regarding the wall behind his couch. He has tamed the wall it in a manner that made the sound non-fatiguing. I am hoping the same happens to my situation. I have the opening of the closet space and now the ability to open the entrance door which I hope will make that 31" wall less of an obstacle. Without treatments when I play music  (KEF LS50's) that is loud and hard the the sound is rather good with the room entrance door open, not so good with it closed.

The reason I went to demo  the Magico A3 over the S1 was because felt that the price of the S1 was not something I wanted to pay for that type of speaker. Also when I went to audition the A3 I was under the impression I that the house I would move to would have a larger office space.  Maybe 2x as large as the current one. However, I decided to move to this current place because it is perfect for my kid.

Another speaker that is maybe similar to the Magico S1 is the following:

https://vividaudio.com/products/kaya-25/

I heard the big brother, Vivid Kaya 90, on the same day as the Treo CT and Magico A3. It sounded great but (somewhat like the KEF Blade)  it was too large a sound for my room and expensive. I know you are thinking about a Magico. Take a look at the Vivid if you have not done so already, it is an excellent speaker..

@tomic601 I took another look at the "Who has Luv for the Lyngdorf 2170 and is thinking about the 3400." thread. I read it from beginning to end. I actually posted some questions into that thread a few months ago.  

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/who-has-luv-for-the-lyngdorf-2170-and-is-thinking-about-the-3...

It was a good read and I did a deep dive into the posters eventual systems and other thread comments (spent about 4 hours). It also got me feeling optimistic again on the bigger floor-stander for my room. My take away as pertaining to my situation:

1) Having a treated room prior to apply Room Perfect DSP is not a bad thing and will cause Room Perfect to have to do less work. Your speakers can have the burden of reproducing certain freq's removed by getting rid of the room treatments and having the Room Perfect deal with it. However, I would not do this and plan on keeping my acoustic treatments. Let the speaker work.

2) The amplification stage after the DSP can be variable. You can use the Class D as built-in on the amp. Or, you can buy a separate amp and use the RCA or XLR pre-amp out to an external amp. One user on YouTube mentioned he has a tube amp, a SS class AB amp, and the default internal Class D amp hooked up. He uses solid state when he wants background and the tube when he is focused on the music. Not saying the tubes are better than the default it was just this posters preference. A lot of A'gon posters love the sound of the Lyngdorf by itself. I have not yet contacted your friend about the Lyngdorf and Treo CT.  I want to listen to the Lyngdorf first.

3) The Lyngdorf system sounds best with digital files. There is an upgraded analog input card that I would need to get and this does a A-2-D conversion of the signal. My listening of my analog sources are not that high. One CD a day on my modded Sony SCD-1 (a fun sound for me) and some KCRW.com FM radio (if they are not playing AutoTune garbage). Most of my listening is Tidal/ROON which the Lyngdorf is optimized for. It also has an Ethernet DAC streaming input, though the USB is supposedly still better sounding. My Sonare microRendu needs to follow my KEF  LS50's to whatever room it goes to so the Ethernet input can save me a few dollars until I get another Ethernet-2-USB device.

3) The digital processing of the digital files is done by a Texas Instruments chip. I do not think this is a DAC chip, though in reality I do not care nor do I need to understand all the details. It is supposed to be lossless or bit perfect or something of that nature.

4) The volume control is excellent and the volume comes from a silent background at all levels. I heard the beauty of the silent background with my old Benchmark AHB2 amp ($3K)

5) Dealer states that a floor stander the size of a Magico A3  or Treo CT can work with DSP in my room. I am skeptical but hope to be proven wrong.

6) I need to go listen to this amp this week at a local shop. I will make 2 trips down to the dealer. If the first trip shows me a general sound that I like without the DSP, I will ask to demo this unit again using DSP with something that approaches what I am looking to get. It takes time to dial in the DSP with the microphone setup.

As I begin this journey back into audio I am starting to become a bit of an audio geek. I have some interest (if / when funds permit) to try a tube amp and class A amp. Buy and sell gear just to try like a lot of you guys here do. A lower power requirement on the speaker will give me more options. Another plus for the Treo CT over the Magico A3. A few amps that I am interested in are the following:

- Benchmark AHB2 (buy this back, sold it to make an investment)
- BAT tube amp (had an old SS BAT VK-42SE preamp and loved it)
- Krell XD amp (want to demo this)
- Mark Levinson amplification 
- Pass Labs
- CODA pure class A amp
- and whatever else comes along

With the Lyngdorf in the pre-amplification stage, with or without DSP turned on, I believe I would have a framework to do this. You are not tied to any particular amplification if this is the intended nature for the pre-amp outputs. I will confirm this with my dealer visit later this week and also try the pre-amp out to maybe a Simaudio amp they have.

@james63  I forgot to mention that in my downstairs space. I have 30 foot long wall, when the adjacent family room is accounted for. So the science for the acoustics in that room  should say it is an excellent space. That space will get a family friendly big rig system. Just waiting on my lottery ticket for that one.

BTW - for anyone wondering why I am writing so much verbiage. It is a way for me to remember the things I am finding along the way. I have re-read this thread a few times to focus my thinking.

I made a change to the furniture in the room. I got rid of the desk facing the speakers. I can get by with out it. I am also going to remove the ugly 30 year old side table I have near the right speaker. The cable modem and other wires will go to the ground.

Listening to Muddy Waters "Hard Again" sounds much improved now. It sounds like a big desk has been removed from in front of the speakers. A brilliant move on my part.

I must say that at the moment the LS50’s are sounding alight. It would be interesting to try it with better amplification but I am not going to diverge from my plans to do that. I will get the Harbeth SHL5+ for a home demo in 3-4 weeks with my Pearchtree Nova 150. This will show me the character of the Harbeth and also show how a bigger speaker sounds in the acoustically treated room.

I will post photos soon when I install the acoustic treatments that should be in transit to my home.

@James63 I demoed the A3 at Brooks Berdan in Los Angeles area. The room may have been 3/4 your size. That room sounded great with A3 and Mark Levinson gear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmTf0K6iJ3s

Happy New Year to all.