Toddalin system
Original music
Alex / Wavetouch
Please compare to the original music (center). I will respect members’ opinion. Please post your opinion. I’ll post my feedback tomorrow. Thank you for participation! Alex/WT
Big speakers, are they really the best way to get great sound?
Yesterday, I had the opportunity to listen to some very large speakers that are considered to be at, or close to, the pinnacle in speaker design and ability. Needless to say, the speakers retail in the mid to high $300k range. These speakers, and I will not be naming them, were sourced by about $800k of upstream gear. Room size was about thirty by twenty, maybe a little larger.
To say the the overall sound was BIG would be accurate, but also I noticed something else, that I typically hear with big speaker systems. Generally, the speakers were right on edge of overloading the room, depending on music, the dreaded bass boom could be heard. But, the whole presentation was greater in impact than most any smaller speaker system, yet it was almost unlistenable for the long term.
The question I asked myself, is do we really want this type of presentation in our home audio systems? The speakers threw a pretty large soundstage, but also made things sound somewhat larger than life. I also thought that this type of speaker is akin to the large box dynamic speakers of yesteryear. For example, a set of large horns from Altec Lansing or similar was reminiscent of this sound. Makes me believe that if one has a big room, a similar sound can be obtained from most any large speaker system and at a fraction of the price.
I listen in a very small room, and by necessity in the near field, yet I think the overall intimacy of this type of listening experience is better for me, your thoughts?
203 responses Add your response
@ phusis All quite correct. However, nobody in their right mind would run them that way. It would damage your ears. The real immediate limiting factor is the woofer. Run full range the woofer will start doubling when pushed too hard which is very annoying. High passing solves this issue completely. Next is the tweeter and I really do not know how much it can take. All I can say is I have never seen one blow. Watched the movie Oppenheimer last night. Highly recommended. |
This music is not my taste at all ... 😊 The two system are good at most ... Not top sorry ... The timbre perception is not optimal in the two case...Milhorn lack bass impact and probably highs refinement ...Toddalin lack mids density ... Why my criticism of the two ? The room controls matter the more and is lacking in the two case it seems and because we cannot hear anyway the speakers/room relation from the internet ... How is the soundstage? the listener envelopment and immersiveness ? and to really judge the timbre and immersiveness and the spatial aspects of sound we need something else than this commercial tune , as a chord quartet or a big band jazz etc ...
I apologize for my rudeness or frankness ...
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Please listen to the original music (center video). You will hear same hiss there too. Alex/WT |
mihorn, If you are posting a pic of the CD cover, I'm not so convinced that you are actually placing the mic in the sweet spot. How do we know that we are hearing the room? I know plenty of people who set up mics so many feet from each speaker just for this sort of thing.
And as I said, I've made changes and would really need to do a new video. |
In my opinion, close up recording will only reveal and emphasis flaws of speaker sounds and it will only hurt people's ears. I am using Nikon D7100 with an external mic attached on D7100 (8.5 ft from speakers). Please watch. Alex/WT |
I agree with this. (I bolded what especially hits me right.) I recently heard a system which was probably close to $1m at YG Acoustics listening room. Besides the fact that the speakers were too far apart (creating a singer with a giant head), my overall impression was that I was listening to a Disney World special effect. Nothing about communicating music or allowing the listener to meet the music in the middle. It was an in-your-face, bombastic, hyperreal sound. Ironically, the system used enormous capital to leave the music behind. |
Not if done right. I've heard videos done this way where the separation is retained and the room acoustics are greatly reduced. Knock yourself out. Especially listen to videos made by Mr. Boochie on his JBL L300s (e.g., Page 331). And while L300s are certainly not the pinnicle in speakers, you can hear how he has eliminated room acoustics and retained separation in the videos.
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@phusis , Hi, yes the Synergy Horns, never heard the real thing but a friend and I roughly assembled out of stiff cardboard a mock up and we were both seriously impressed. Way back I got a DIY design out of either Speaker Builder magazine or Sound Practices, can't remember which. It was an Edgar horn for mids and easy to build, which was at the time considered as the reference for midrange purity. I later helped build an Edgar horn system which is most unattractive to look at, a pile of ugly boxes but loved the sound. There were no subs at this stage unfortunately. I firmly believe if more people heard speakers of this ilk with their effortless dynamics and convincing realism some would find a way to incorporate them into a domestic setting. |
I am surprised you point that out. You have great ears. I agree on mid cupped or deadness in sounds. Yes. It makes my forehead hard, heavy, and dead-end (not open sound) feeling. But I am hearing that same sound from the original music too. I am aware that your system sounds open (not airy tho) on mid-range unlike the original music. To my ears your audio system sound everything opposite to the original music. Where the original music push forward, your system sounds open and backed off, and vice versa. I know partially why your system sounds like that. Almost all audio systems in the world sound like that. I found a solution of that and apply it to my system. Therefore, my system sounds close to the original music. Alex/WT |
I don’t agree. I think that mine sounds more like the original BUT with the acoustics of the room added to it. I use no room treatment and the room is very large (~5,000 cu ft) open at the rear left to both the entry hall and dining room. Just try to fill that to concert/symphony levels with small speakers! Also, I’ve spent years voicing these speakers to my taste. I did develop them in the room for the room. They had more air than I cared for so I took some out (as in the video) but have since put a bit back also adding a bit to the upper midrange. I have special modifications for the Heil AMTs that add a whole world of detail and imaging. |
Amazing... Which so much variable factors at play how is it possible to make this impossible deduction ? By the way my system dont sound as any of yours ... It is normal, i adressed the room acoustic , the electrical noise floor level and the EMI interference and the mechanical vibrations/resonance problem ... I am very happy ...
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@ toddalin I respect your opinion on the sound and skill with speaker making. I am listening. Your system sounds really good and better than many much more expensive systems I've heard.Could we compare sounds with different music such as below? And am I hi-jacking a thread right now? I think I should stop here. Alex/WT |
@mihorn You would not be hijacking my thread if your speakers are to be compared to much larger speakers. I do think videos on Youtube tells us next to nothing about the SQ of a system, although many folk seem to believe the opposite.
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I have neither of those selections, nor do I stream. I prefer classic rock, especially in SACD format. I use an Oppo95 through a 22 year old Yamaha RX-Z9 RECEIVER with over 30,000 hours on it. |
Those big speakers do well on C. Rock but delicate music. I heard JBL Everest with Luxman 300B amp from my friend 30 years ago. He also had A7 VOTT. I was in heaven listening Rickie Lee Jones (Pop Pop). One of serious limitation for big horn speakers (compression driver) is the dirty and rough sound. Only thing it does well is hard hitting sound such as a drum. I don't want to listen C Rock all the time. My system does well on all kinds of sources (CD, MP3, MP4 (YT music), MOV, etc.) and genres (Rock, vocal, classical, small chamber, Piano, violin, audiophile, fusion, etc.). Live recordings below. Many of them are YT downloaded MP3. Alex/WT Schbert - Fantasie C Dur, Allegretto, Vivaldi - Winter (Four season) Mozart: Violin Concerto No. 3 - Hilary Hahn, Lidia Borda - Cuando silba el viento Stars Fell On Alabama - Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong |
1st, no audio reproduction is perfect. I know my system is not perfect but my system is closest anyone can get in reproduction audio. You are right and I agree that most/all my recordings sound "cupped". I know its because all original records are cupped in some extent. I said all audio systems in the world are flawed, also all recording equipment are flawed too. Ex.) All microphones in the world are not made properly. Same problem for mixers. I only know how to make them properly and I’ll start to make proper microphones soon. Alex/WT |
@mihorn Your statement is a little presumptive, don’t you think? I heard your system at the last THE show; let’s just say that it might behove you at the next show you attend to actually go around the various rooms and have a listen to what the other exhibitors are doing. |
mihorn, I don’t use horns on the Mermans because I believe in time alignment and think that this is a prerequisite to a better soundstage and imaging. I do have horns on my JBL L200/300s, and one-off, custom tri-amped, Altec Big Red Supers, but neither hold a candle to the imaging I get from the Mermans which is totally unlike anything I’ve heard at any price. The History of the Mermans |
I made some mistakes with my audio system at last Orange County show. I am not happy with that sound. My system is much improved after The SHOW 2023. Also, I didn't use the sub-woofer then. I look around almost other rooms to hear any thing changed at the show every year. Thank you very much for your interest and watching me! Alex/WT |
@mijostyn wrote:
Received the 3-disc 4K UHD last week on release day, and it's an excellent movie indeed while also sporting fantastic technical merits - both aurally and visually. @lemonhaze wrote:
I'm not so sure about that. Many if not most audiophiles have been "conditioned" to a segment of speakers that are - by and large - direct radiating, inefficient and relatively small. Suddenly being confronted with very large, probably industrial and form-follows-function looking behemoths of horns/horn hybrid variants will likely go sideways of the known narrative to many an audiophile, and by the mere looks and anticipation of it will spell sonic calamity to them. "effortless dynamics and convincing realism" stands the chance of being regarded as a character, something exaggerated or just another flavor, not traits. @mihorn wrote:
A ridiculous, ignorant statement. If anything it's all the more clear where you're coming from.. |
There seems to be a genital competition here. It has been my experience that most persons, lacking exposure, really have no idea. They like Hollandaise sauce but have never had real homemade Hollandaise. The trick is to leave the butter out overnight. The only horns most people have ever heard were something like Altec Voice of the Theaters which, to be polite, were the aural equivalent of chewing on cardboard. The best horn systems are expensive and very large, difficult to deal with. They are not common so most have ZERO experience. You have also made that leap to digital signal processing which has developed its own peculiar mythology based on poor conceptualization. Speakers and rooms not being perfect, it is the only path to the highest performance unless you are extremely lucky. I have seen this once in my lifetime, the system of a high school teacher. This was in 1978 or so. The speakers were Pyramid Metronomes with Threshold Electronics thrown haphazardly into the livingroom of a small apartment in Miami Florida. This was the very first time I heard a system image correctly. What a wonderful system. |
May be you could live record and post a couple of below (or similar) music. I need to hear your speakers more to see I am wrong. Schbert - Fantasie C Dur, Allegretto, Vivaldi - Winter (Four season) Mozart: Violin Concerto No. 3 - Hilary Hahn, Lidia Borda - Cuando silba el viento |
@mijostyn wrote:
I believe in this case we have to acknowledge that quite a few horn-loaded speakers, even at more moderate price levels, avoid sounding "dirty and rough" per se (not to say they sound their best). It’s simply missing the target making such a general statement (i.e.: the "dirty and rough" remark), and pointing that out - from my chair - doesn’t equate into a swinging d*ck mentality.
The thing with horns and for them to work their best is large size, design and implementation, and usually that’s not all of which the domestic varieties will accommodate easily. Myself I’d much rather have big pro segment horns than smaller, expensive "hifi" dittos; what the latter seeks to achieve with "cultivation," fancy finishing and higher prices, typically passively, is hampered by a physically compromised outset that can’t be compensated for, while failing to take advantage of a DSP approach actively - what you touch upon yourself.
Indeed, few really nails it. |
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I listen to orchestra music. If my room was small I’d have to adjust speaker size, but my room is not small so I’m using full range speakers. I’ll likely purchase articulate subwoofers to extend the bottom end and fill in the lower audio spectrum. Maybe I’ll try Sopraninos to see if beneficial in the top end. I usually don’t think in terms of large or small speakers but rather what is their frequency extension relative to the type of music I listen to. Adequate bass energy require drivers that can handle the music. |
@ toddalin I wanted hear something more mellow and musical, and you brought a hard rock. Anyway, I have a live recording of same music from few weeks ago. I won’t say which sounds better. I’ll say this. If you are upgrading your audio gears, which sounds you want to have? Alex/WTA |
My room has a minimal acoustic treatment which covering 1st reflection points with few small sponges. 70% left side wall is glass doors covered with a curtain. All audio systems in the world sound unnatural. The unnatural sounds are very bright and blatant. Your ears are used to a left speaker in video. My audio system behaves like a right speaker. Listen to your video in the previous post after watch this. Alex/WTA |
I don’t use any trick. Below video is made by Audiophile Junkie (YT ID.). Alex/WTA |
Yes. Your system does sound similar like the left speaker in the comparison video. Say "Hello" (or any words) while your video is playing. Do same to the original music and my video below. Alex/WTA |
I am amazed by the fact that for most people the speakers alone is the source of the sound , which for me made no sense, because i always tought in acoustics terms , nevermind the speakers design , which i can build a room around and for it ... Speakers design matter but without a very good dedicated room , i will not call anything high end ...Price tag is secondary ...Acoustics primary ...As a relative rule... But now beware, i never said that a 150 bucks speakers will compare with or without acoustics to a many thousand bucks speakers generally ....😊 |
My shop is 36’L x 28’W x 11’H (11k cubic ft) and my system sounds even better than my room in the video (22’ x 13.4’ x 8’). Almost conventional speakers must pressurize the room with sounds to come alive because speakers blow sounds to walls, floor, and ceiling first rather than to to a listener. Almost all sounds a listener gets are reflected sounds. If the room is large, the sounds must travel longer (weaker and colored by reflected on dry walls) to reach to a listener. So, the room size is very important. With natural sound speakers, more sounds travel directly to the listener and the room size is not that important. The room size difference with a natural sound speaker is like a real person is singing in a small room or a large room. Alex/WTA |
Breaking this down to size is oversimplification to the point of misinformation. What matters most are the radiation patterns of the drivers, the maximum SPLs one wants, the acoustical properties of the room (size and proportions are just two of many aspects) and the goals of the system. Boomy bass is almost always more a function of room acoustics, specifically bass absorption than speaker size. Radiation patterns only come into play with dipoles in the bass (mostly). Room size does play a part in the bass but bigger isn’t always better. Bigger just means the problems are lower on frequency which is often harder to solve. But bass absorption in a room matters much much more than room size. Boomy bass is not a result of a speaker simply being too big. |
I never said it was a "trick" Do you not know what a straw man is? My room and system are set up to minimize reflections at the listener. Speakers are ~7.5 feet apart on the 26 foot wall and about 10.5 feet from the listener. The ceiling above the speakers is ~14 feet high. The rear wave is removed from the Heils and the 2251J crosses over at ~3kHz to minimize early reflections. Tell you what, you bring your "technology" over here and we’ll listen together. I’m in Orange County, CA and I see you advertise on C/L in LA. |
Very true .... Bass control in the room cannot be efficient without controlling the zone pressure distribution ...Helmholtz tuned resonators did it for me in my last room ...
But speakers in a small wood two way box are also Helmholtz resonators ...😊 You can modify the port hole and redesign it as i did ... You can redesign the tweeter radiation pattern as i did ...And the low cost speakers now punch way above his price ...( 100 bucks 12 years ago and i disliked them for 11 years😁 )
Speakers/room relation is one thing that most people dont understand ... They bought costly speakers thinking that speakers give their optimal S.Q. in any uncontrolled room ... This is false ... And small speakers without being as good as big one because of bass depth can be more than just good in near listening in a dedicated acoustically controlled corner ... The impact and change of a small speakers with a 4 inches woofer as mine could be astonishing ... ( i go 50 hertz clear no boominess) I believe only in acoustics .... Price tag means nothing without acoustics ... And with acoustics a well designed low cost speakers can punch above what is expected ...
Then to answer the OP question , the best way to have good sound is learning basic acoustics knowledge not buying small or big speakers ...
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Even in nearfield the acoustic of the room matter ... If we compute the number of times the waves at the speed of sound cross the walls of any room to our ears, we will be surprized ... 😊 People who think that because they listen nearfield room acoustics dont matter are in delusion not in acoustics ... And the size of speakers as such even in a big room matter less than the way we understand acoustics relation between speakers/room and ears ... ... |
Near field listening is generally spent with smaller speakers ... I redesigned the porthole of my small speakers to go 50 hertz and when room acoustic is well done all is good at least for me ... Then it is not nearfield listening that matter but always acoustics , a box speaker is a resonator waiting to be tuned as much as any room wait to be tuned ... ...... But even with good room acoustic a small speakers set will not go 20 hertz clean for that we need a grid of subwoofers or at least one well coupled and this is costlier 😊... I dont need that anyway ...music shine for me ... My dream is very good S.Q. for peanuts ... The only thing i need i hope this year , is what you have : the BACCH filters for my top headphone ...
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For sure , i was using my Mission Cyrus in near listening and they were not small ... But generally near listening is more frequent with small speakers ... my point in my post was nevermind the room , nevermind the speakers size, acoustics matter first and last for me even in near listening field ... my posts were only an approval of yours by my own experience ... 😊
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