Big speakers, are they really the best way to get great sound?

@mahgister  Good post. I agree there are a number of ways to 'slice the cake' in our hobby. To get a good SQ does NOT always require a large room with large speakers, as I believe I can demonstrate with my system. OTOH, what large speakers in a large space can deliver, which i do not think smaller speakers in a large space ( or a small space) can is: scale. This, however, is many times the only advantage to large speakers, IME. There are also several advantages of small speakers over large speakers, one of which I touched on earlier, and I believe that is imaging precision. 

There is only one kind of speakers worth mentioning in this forum, it is full range speakers. How big they are is irrelevant, usually big.

What an interesting post! Full range meaning what to you? Please do elaborate. 

is it you God ? 😊

LOL, that’s the best post so far!!! I was wondering exactly the same thing!

@lemonhaze Uh..the photos of my room show grey colored panels, which are bass traps! Also, I utilize two small subwoofers, so I know what you are talking about there.
Room dimensions are important, luckily the saving grace in my room is not the width or length, but the volume. Something most folks discount, but it is extremely important.

@inna. We have now learned that you are the maestro of all that is in audiophiledom. Thank you for your immense all encompassing wisdom.

@jim2   Member inna likes to post with absolutes. Unfortunately, this also shows his inexperience and lack of knowledge in this hobby. 
 

@lemonhaze   I have multiple room acoustic treatments in my room, many of which you can see in my system photos, but you have to be able to recognize them.... Including the Real Trap Mondo Traps that you do not recognize. The subs were dialed in by me, as I totally trust my ears (albeit at some considerable difficulty and time). No one who has visited my room has ever complained about the SQ. In fact the last visitor, a well known a'phile writer and reviewer, was highly complimentary on the SQ and could not locate the subs at all ( which to my ears is what you want). 

Oh, and you are right..I do have a bass trap behind my seating position. 

It seems you to like to jump to conclusions about other people's systems... which leads me to my question for you, why is your system not posted somewhere on this forum??

Going 'big' in a small room is a recipe for disaster, which you might know, if you had a clue!

@ronbocoif you had mentioned in your OP the room treatment in place I would not have been inspired to type a long email trying to be of help.

I did not mention room treatments in my OP, as the place I heard the speakers in question was not in my room...or with my system. Not sure why you assumed that to be the case? The demo was at a local dealers and the room was large and fairly well treated. The room was certainly not the main problem here, although it did contribute...as they all do.

Nonetheless, don't get me wrong, I am a BIG believer in room acoustic treatments and in making sure that the room is optimized for the system; so no TV's between speakers, an attention to where the speakers are placed ( I use a laser to assist here) and careful attention to how cables are run etc.,

I also posted a new photo on my system page, which shows the vault ceiling in my room. This is a very important aspect of the sound field and in contributing to the SQ that i manage to get in this small room. Mainly due to the fact that while the size is small, the actual volume is acceptable.

I think size alone has little to do with a speaker's capability. Implementation and design are the key here. I would much rather have a small speaker that is designed to work well in typical listening space than a large speaker that is thrown together haphazardly. This applies to the room as well. IME, the best sounding rooms are the one that have speakers in them that are appropriate for not only the size of the space, but also the acoustics of the space. 

In my OP, the speakers were large, the room was quite large and unfortunately the sound field was over ripe! Why, because these speakers were being played in a space that worked ok for them, but not great! A smaller model of the same line would have been more appropriate for this space, and would have probably sounded better; albeit not as impressive looking! 

IMO, large speakers many times equates to large problems, but I guess if all else is equal, the large can out do small....BUT it better be in a room that has been designed for what the larger speaker brings, warts and all. 

@kennymacc   You put your 'big' speaker in a small room ( or a room that is not synergistic with this speaker) and see if it gets you what you state---- top-to-bottom "BASS'", Dynamics, Slam and Impact! 

Then tell us they are the best way to have it all from top-to-bottom. 

I think you may be changing your mind.

@kennymacc  Your room is definitely on the small size, like mine. OTOH, I don't think that your Revel's qualify as large speakers. They are, at least to me, mid size. When I am talking of large speakers, I am thinking of the likes of Wilson Alexx's, Chronosonic's, top Focal's, YG Sonja's with bass cabinets etc., These speakers are much larger and in a room your size would probably not work. 

I recently heard the new Borresen X3's, which I thought to be superb. Problem is that they would never work in my room, simply too large. Yet, for a more typical room, say 15' X 18', they would be ideal. In your room, they would work, BUT you would not be able to hear what they are truly capable of. I suspect your Salon 2's would also work better in a larger space.

Or, you can optimize your system so that it works the best in whatever room you are working with. Instead of just plopping some over size speaker into a room and hoping it will work. Then you can 'just bang on rocks with sticks'! 

"Big speakers, Big problems" is probably true 90+% of the time; but not always.

If one has the room, the ancillary gear and the set up expertise, then they will provide a sense of scale, which IME, small speakers cannot. BUT the question is what you are also leaving behind. Personally, I totally dislike horns for this reason. Almost all horn designs are large and fall into the saying you posted above. Plus, the issues typically are not that recognizable, until a listener gets to hear a system with none of the problems. Only then do they become glaringly (pun) obvious, IMO.

@phusis   If you don't believe in fitting your speakers to your listening room, size-wise, you clearly have never heard a speaker that is too large for said space. There are numerous examples of less experienced a'philes trying to shoe horn a too large speaker into their listening space. 

@phusis Personally, I would much rather hear a small speaker hampered by a large room and consequently sounding small; than a large speaker in too small a space- that totally overloads the room. YMMV.

Alex, while I agree that @phusis point about small speakers sounding small. strained and much less natural in a variety of listening spaces is a very wide and somewhat incorrect statement, I do think we have to be fair to him. Your speakers, and really all speakers with a 5.25" bass driver cannot really push huge amounts of air. As such, when a bass wave that would drop down into the 20Hz range is needed to be played back, well it is MIA. The listener will not feel anything like the punch or air that a much larger driver in a much larger speaker can deliver. From this perspective, phusis’s point about Physics becomes a factor, which there is no getting around. This is why I add subwoofers to my small stand mounts. IME, in a small room, the subwoofer is just as crucial. In fact more than one subwoofer is crucial. Now, that subwoofer has to be tailored to the room size and type of main speaker, so again phusis’ point about not caring about tailoring your speaker size to your room, is IMO totally incorrect.

@phusis I thought you did not care about speaker-room interaction because upstream you posted this:"brought on as the BS rationale of "fitting your speakers to the listening room size-wise."

IMO, if you want to run too large a speaker into too small a room, there really is nothing you can do to compensate for this error. Sure, you can make the speaker work, but it will NOT work anywhere near what its full capability is. Therefore, the highlighted point is incorrect, as it is of major importance to fit your speaker to your room, size-wise, IMO. As I stated before, there are numerous examples of this mistake, many foisted on the a’phile by the fact that he wants the biggest speaker possible (and re-enforced by his/her dealer, as large speakers are typically more $$) but not having the room to accommodate the speaker.

@unreceivedogma Your proviso makes sense. Room size and room tuning are important regardless of the size of the speaker. But it is indeed all relative.

Which brings me to @phusis The point you seem to be making is that a big speaker can be made to work well in a small space. I would not dispute this, but what it also means is that the big speaker is probably not working to its fullest in said space due to size limitations. What you say about a small speaker in a large space is not always true either. IME, a small speaker can be made to work well in a large space, but the job is also not easy.

The point I think some are missing here, is this. If you try and shoe-horn a large speaker into a small ( not even medium) space that is too small for the speaker, then you will not be listening to what the large speaker can deliver, assuming that it has decent SQ in the first place. Conversely, if you try and place a small speaker into a too large space, then you will most likely also have to deal with various issues, and if not done, the small speaker will probably sound...small. Which is why i do believe that fitting your speaker size to the size of your room is very important, otherwise you will have to fight the lack of synergy at the very least.

I will compare to any audio system in the world. Please you show me any audio system’s live recording video sounds better than mine. Alex/Wavetouch audio

Like phusis stated above, based on a video?? Even in a ’live room experience’, you cannot truly compare two complete systems and come up with an absolute as there are so many variables, starting with different rooms, listener preferences, gear, cabling, power distribution, climate and on and on.

The best one can say is that system A meets your own preferences better than system B on a given day. Not that it is better than ’any audio system in the world’!

In my OP, I referenced a system that was not only far far more expensive than the system that you tout, but also was probably able to easily out do your system in several areas. Would this make this system a ’world beater’...I think not. As I mentioned, it was not one that I personally could see myself living with for the long term, and yet I presume there were plenty of folks at this demo that day, that absolutely could~

@mihorn   You would not be hijacking my thread if your speakers are to be compared to much larger speakers. I do think videos on Youtube tells us next to nothing about the SQ of a system, although many folk seem to believe the opposite. 

1st, no audio reproduction is perfect. I know my system is not perfect but my system is closest anyone can get in reproduction audio.

@mihorn Your statement is a little presumptive, don’t you think?

I heard your system at the last THE show; let’s just say that it might behove you at the next show you attend to actually go around the various rooms and have a listen to what the other exhibitors are doing.

@phusis   When I say, larger than life, I am referring to what I hear when I attend a live event. For example, the sound of a small acoustic ensemble in a hall. While the system I heard can somewhat portray the sound of the hall, it also made the instruments sound as if they were about ten feet wide! Not that realistic, imho.

Most folks who would contemplate buying this system, will have the requisite space to put it…would be my guess. However, I think the sound they are going to get will be highly dependent on how well the room will be treated. Without treatment, almost all home living spaces will exhibit a nasty room resonance.
My point though with regards to very large speakers like these is that even with a large enough room, and room treatments, I think the overall sound will be unlike what hears in a ‘live’ setting, due to the seeming inability of speakers like these to sound intimate enough, when called for. Personally, I cannot see paying anything like the ask for a speaker like this. They truly reminded me of the first time I listened to Altec VOTT’s and when I subsequently heard Quad ‘57’s years later. IMO, two different types of performance…and I much preferred the Quads.

While I agree that room treatment is extremely important, the system i was listening to in my OP had been treated. The demo was done by folks who I believe actually do know how to set up a room! ( I am not sure why folks here many times come to the conclusion that room acoustic set up is something that experienced a’philes and dealers fail to do??). The question, and I believe this is where I was going with my OP, is such a large and ambitious speaker with the ability to easily override a room really what we want in our listening room? To that, is it possible that even with room treatment ( and a very large room) that a speaker can still sound too large? I believe the speakers in question ( which admittedly I have only heard this one time) could possibly have a design flaw that actually appeals to some, and not others (like myself).

@baylinor Your post is interesting. Every time I have heard PBN’s, and I have heard them many times, since they are a local company to me, they do nothing for me at all. This tells us that in this hobby, everyone has a different taste and expectation of what is right to their ears. Clearly, the Montana’s work for you, and you appreciate their sound.

@mulveling Agreed. Getting large speakers to really work well does take more time and expertise. The system i heard had what appeared to be the right upstream gear and was carefully put together. I just think that perhaps the speakers in question could not live up to either their hype, or their price. I also have heard the large Focal’s and come away less than impressed. The interesting thing is that they seem to be highly dependent on room interaction. The first time I heard the Utopia’s, I was impressed, but every time since, they have done absolutely nothing for me.

One other thing, and perhaps we all suffer from this..as the price rises to the heavens, our expectations may rise there also???

@ghdprentice Good points. I agree that there are certain brands that design for a ‘show’ sound. Not trying to create the sound of real and unamplified instruments in an acoustic space. I guess that sound..one wherein your friends are initially impressed, is not really what I am looking for. Personally, I prefer a reproduction that is more correct to my remembrance of what I hear live.
Perhaps this kind of sound is more salable for big $$ than a more accurate reproduction.

 

What is it about a local context of a large system + listening space that makes you deduce the observations made here translates into a general characteristic of other, similarly-ish sized systems - the astronomical price of +$1M? - does that make it a representative for all larger sized speaker setups? If anything it goes to show price in itself doesn’t tell you much about the potential at hand (as you have indicated yourself), also not knowing about the hardware specifics, nor the overall implementation acoustically or otherwise.

Why the secrecy - what’s so important to keep the lid on exposing the speakers at play here? It’s just your opinion - calling out über-expensive speakers + gear for sounding less than ideal shouldn’t be a more precarious matter than saying the same of less expensive speakers. I take it there’ll be no red dot placed on your forehead for spilling the beans, as they say.

While the speakers I had the pleasure of hearing definitely seemed to not portray what I felt were the same level of specific detail and intimacy that other smaller systems I have heard can; I do agree that a generalization cannot be made. I do not believe I was trying to say that ALL large speakers fall down in this way, although most that i have heard certainly do. What would be point of disclosing the speaker in question, besides to feed your curiosity? It is a model that has- and is receiving the highest in hype and praise (as it should for its asking price!) To many on this forum, I suspect they would consider it to be SOTA, which just goes to show the variety in tastes.

As to what I hear live, I am an ex-pro studio musician, so i have had some exposure to the ’live’ unamplified sound... mostly fairly close up, although also many times in large halls. This is where I come from as a 'frame of reference'. What is your 'frame of reference'?

@phusis what you stated about your listening and sound preferences is very helpful. Thank you. It gives us an idea as to where you are coming from as to what your system expectations are. I think all of us could benefit from having this discussion, as it is pretty accurate to say that most of us listen for different things in our systems…and what we hope to achieve with these systems.

Personally, I am trying to get as close to what I hear from an acoustic instrument or instruments in the settings that I have experienced.As such, I occasionally use my Taylor acoustic guitar to listen as a guide to what the system can portray of this type of instrument. I have an excellent memory of what this instrument sounds like in various settings. If a system can produce the sound of an acoustic guitar in my room, with a close to representative of this sound, I believe I am on the right track.What I truly like about Franco Serblin’s work, was that I believe he had a similar goal.The speakers he produced were attempting to sound as close as possible to a real instrument, not in the sense of being a playable instrument, but in the sense of what said instrument sounded like in a live and acoustic environment.