Big speakers, are they really the best way to get great sound?

For sure , i was using my Mission Cyrus in near listening and they were not small ...

But generally near listening is more frequent with small speakers ...

my point in my post was nevermind the room , nevermind the speakers size, acoustics matter first and last for me even in near listening field  ...

my posts were only an approval of yours by my own experience ... 😊

Near field listening isn’t exclusive to small speakers. Depends more on the drivers and how they interact than the size of their he speakers.

Near field listening is generally spent with smaller speakers ...

I redesigned the porthole of my small speakers to go 50 hertz and when room acoustic is well done all is good at least for me ... Then it is not nearfield listening that matter but always acoustics , a box speaker is a resonator waiting to be tuned as much as any room wait to be tuned ... ......

But even with good room acoustic a small speakers set will not go 20 hertz clean for that we need a grid of subwoofers or at least one well coupled  and this is costlier 😊... I dont need that anyway ...music shine for me  ... My dream is very good S.Q. for peanuts ...

The only thing i need i hope this year , is what you have : the BACCH filters for my top headphone  ...

Near field matters but it isn’t an all or nothing proposition. It has pretty much no effect on bass

Even in nearfield the acoustic of the room matter ...

If we compute the number of times the waves at the speed of sound cross the walls of any room to our ears, we will be surprized ... 😊

People who think that because they listen nearfield room acoustics dont matter are in delusion not in acoustics ...

And the size of speakers as such even in a big room matter less than the way we understand acoustics relation between speakers/room and ears ... ...

Very true .... Bass control in the room cannot be efficient without controlling the zone pressure distribution ...Helmholtz tuned resonators did it for me in my last room ...

But speakers in a small wood two way box are also Helmholtz resonators ...😊

You can modify the port hole and redesign it as i did ... You can redesign the tweeter radiation pattern as i did ...And the low cost speakers now punch way above his price ...( 100 bucks 12 years ago and i disliked them for 11 years😁 )

Speakers/room relation is one thing that most people dont understand ...

They bought costly speakers thinking that speakers give their optimal S.Q. in any uncontrolled room ... This is false ...

And small speakers without being as good as big one because of bass depth can be more than just good in near listening in a dedicated acoustically controlled corner ...

The impact and change of a small speakers with a 4 inches woofer as mine could be astonishing ... ( i go 50 hertz clear no boominess)

I believe only in acoustics .... Price tag means nothing without acoustics ... And with acoustics a well designed low cost speakers can punch above what is expected ...

 Then to answer the OP question , the best way to have good sound is learning basic acoustics knowledge not buying small or big speakers ...

Breaking this down to size is oversimplification to the point of misinformation. What matters most are the radiation patterns of the drivers, the maximum SPLs one wants, the acoustical properties of the room (size and proportions are just two of many aspects) and the goals of the system. Boomy bass is almost always more a function of room acoustics, specifically bass absorption than speaker size. Radiation patterns only come into play with dipoles in the bass (mostly). Room size does play a part in the bass but bigger isn’t always better. Bigger just means the problems are lower on frequency which is often harder to solve. But bass absorption in a room matters much much more than room size. Boomy bass is not a result of a speaker simply being too big.

I am amazed by the fact that for most people the speakers alone is the source of the sound , which for me made no sense, because i always tought in acoustics terms , nevermind the speakers design , which i can build a room around and for it ...

Speakers design matter but without a very good dedicated room , i will not call anything high end ...Price tag is secondary ...Acoustics primary ...As a relative rule... But now beware, i never said that a 150 bucks speakers will compare with or without acoustics to a many thousand bucks speakers generally ....😊

Almost all audio systems in the world sound like that.

Amazing...

Which so much variable factors at play  how is it possible to make this impossible deduction ?

By the way my system dont sound as any of yours ...

It is normal, i adressed the room acoustic , the electrical noise floor level and the EMI interference and the mechanical vibrations/resonance problem ...

I am very happy ...

Thanks mijostyn...

I will watch it and report ...My best to you ...

Watched the movie Oppenheimer last night. Highly recommended.

This music is not my taste at all ... 😊

The two system are good at most ... Not top sorry ...

The timbre perception is not optimal in the two case...Milhorn lack bass impact and probably highs refinement ...Toddalin lack mids density ...

Why my criticism of the two ?

The room controls matter the  more and is lacking in the two case it seems and  because we cannot hear anyway  the speakers/room relation from the internet ... How is the soundstage? the listener envelopment and immersiveness ? and to really judge the timbre  and immersiveness and the spatial aspects of sound  we need something else than this commercial tune , as a chord quartet or a big band jazz etc ...

I apologize for my rudeness or frankness ...

mihorn

357 posts

11-27-2023 at 01:39am

Toddalin system

Original music

An acoustic revolution of biblical proportion is in the making , you are right on this one ... But we dont need a revolution in field theory for that perhaps the incoming A.I. will help for sure but we must wait for this A.I. help for a couple of years for now .. ...😊

Dr.Choueiri is the real deal for now and he works is in acoustics...I dont think that his plasma physics doctorate was needed for his BACCH filters revolution ( acoustics is his hobby) ...

I still do not understand why my system does everything that it does.

"Like the incredible imaging and coherence even, (Behind) me".

I trust you on this too ...

You know why ? 😁

Because with my system in my first dedicated room , among other things , tuned with 100 mechanically adjusted Helmholtz resonators the imaging and the soundstage was encompassing the listener position , and for some recording , because it is recording dependant for sure , the sound was coming behind me too and filled the room ... it is called acoustical control of the room , mechanical control and with some DSP tool it can help , but i was using none in my case ...😁

The money value of my system was low : Sansui amplifier, Mission speakers Cyrus, french battery dac SPS...Nothing miraculous with the gear but nothing too bad either ...

Myself unlike you as you said , i understood precisely why my system/room was doing what it was doing , because all was born from a mechanical tunable treatment and controls parameters of the room for my ears location, it is called acoustics with an (s ) ... Was it perfect ? No ...Was it stunnning ? yes ...

Try this audiophile top level recording in any controlled room and you will hear voices all around you even behind if there is mechanical right controls in place , the recording is the FIRST main spatial information source not the speakers choice...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR33bL5aNTk&t=2244s

No system/speakers can do anything without ears and room double controls ( mechanical and electronical as for the BACCH filters) and you need good recording for sure by the way ...

I dont doubt a second by the way that you gear is way  better than mine but so good it could be it does not replace system/room/ears control for the spatial information translation ... To reach perfection here we need Choueiri BACCH filters ...It is the beginning of the revolution you spoke about ...more to come for sure ...

Acoustics is the sleeping princess and the kissing prince is your ears/brain , the gear system is only the 7 working dwarves ...

I dont know milhorn secret sauce for speakers but he is right on this ... Musicality is a natural experience not an artificial or biased taste ...Psycho-acoustics science and experience rules audio not specific relative individual tastes ...

The fact that some human prefer to eat their victim living or /and dead has nothing to do with french or chinese refined culinary chemistry ...And the excellence of french or chinese culinary is grounded in perspectival educated cultural choices in chemistry grounded in the humam metabolism not in ungrounded idyosyncrasique arbitrary tastes ...Only sellers and marketers think that ...

Then "natural" soundfield is not arbitrary but conditioned by acoustics and psycho-acoustics concepts and conditions not by price tags ...

mihorn

351 posts

11-20-2023 at 04:56pm

phusis what’s "natural" sounding to some obviously isn’t to others - if only it came down to that.

I don’t agree that the natural sound to me is unnatural to some others since we hear natural sounds (voices, winds, dog barking, car tire and engine sounds, water flowing, etc.) everywhere. Alex/Wavetouch

natural sound vs. unnatural sound speakers comparison.

mihorn

351 posts

11-20-2023 at 04:56pm

phusis what’s "natural" sounding to some obviously isn’t to others - if only it came down to that.

I don’t agree that the natural sound to me is unnatural to some others since we hear natural sounds (voices, winds, dog barking, car tire and engine sounds, water flowing, etc.) everywhere. Alex/Wavetouch

natural sound vs. unnatural sound speakers comparison.

Immersiveness is a precise acoustic property not only in headphone but in speakers soundfield...

It is related to the ratio ASW/LV control in a room ...

And the fact that you attributed it to the speakers design is not false, because each type of speakers MAY  contribute in his own way to an immersive experience ,  but this quality is first and last an ACOUSTIC concept and the result of an acoustic set of controls of the relation speakers/room/listener location , immersiveness is then not  a speakers design concept even it is for sure related to speakers design concept ... Then as such we can use any speakers and make his experience "immersive" ... it could be easier in some specific room with specific appropriated design but ANY speakers can be associated with a relatively good immersive experience if we understand how to use the many acoustic factors related to this concept in a room acoustically controlled for them ... i learned it with big as with small two way speakers by the way ......But i could do it with ANY speakers type , it is only necessary to put them in the right room and right acoustic conditions ...

It ask for way more than few acoustic panels though in my experience ...

@mahgister --

Much of this, it appears, comes down to semantics and which meaning to ascribe to terms. It seems to you "immersion" is linked to acoustics predominantly, while to me it isn’t (predominantly). When you spoke, or rather wrote about "an immersive inclusive soundstage engulfing the listener with swmall speakers," I found it "stole" into the realm of mainly horn-loaded and to some degree panel speakers of considerable physical size, speakers that to my ears have been the only real way to experience a large radiation bubble of said "wash" of immersive, and indeed visceral quality.

You put something in my mouth i never said then you refute it with common place evidence facts for all ..

😁

An honest discussion dont go this way ...Sorry...

I said that it is possible to enjoy some level of "immersiveness" which is a SPECIFIC OBJECTIVE acoustic concept with any well embedded speakers, small or big ... I presume you know that any acoustician can prepare a room big or small to be optimal for giving a relative experience of "immersiveness" because there is parameter we can work with to do that with any room and with any speakers , big or small .. ... ...I presumed that some reader of my post would know that for sure ... 😊.. I know i presumed too much...

I never said that small speakers work as well for that "immersiveness" acoustic experience than bigger better designed speakers in better and bigger room ...

Do you catch what i spoke about ?

I spoke about an OBJECTIVE acoustic concept WHICH WE CAN AND MUST CONTROL IN ALL SPEAKERS CASE as timbre is one : immersiveness ... We can even enjoy some level of immersiveness with headphones...Do you know that ?

Try to understand when reading a post what is the matter in discussion ...

Only an idiot can say that low cost small speakers will perform as well as bigger speakers in a big adapted room ... And i am not an idiot as you suggested unvolontarily misreading me ...

But read acoustics and you will learn how to create immersiveness or a better timbre experience or any other acoustic factors with any speakers and even with headphones so hard it could be .,..But no acoustician think doing so that all speakers are equals ... I am not an acoustician but i learned by experimenting basic concepts ..

Being happy with small speakers and knowing how to do so dont implicate that i suggested that bigger speakers will not improve the experience ...But the reverse is true , owning bigger speakers dont means that no small speakers can be satisfying giving immersiveness ... Immersiveness is not a SUBJECTIVE impression only it is an OBJECTIVE concept and experience which we can learn to control in any room and with any speakers  to some minimal satisfying acoustical level  we can even measure now ....

I think that i was clear ...Thanks for your attention and thanks for the occasion you gave me to be clearer ...

An individual enjoying/being happy about the sound from a small speaker system is all well and important to the one feeling this way about it, but "enjoyment" here is no measure in itself when it comes to assessing the true capabilities against a larger, more physically all-out speakers system and the traits that follow here. And no, no acoustics fiddling or trickery will change that.

All your post made sense thanks but for 2 points....

It is possible to enjoy an immersive inclusive soundstage engulfing the listener with swmall speakers ..

I know it because i enjoy it ...

The reason why you did not observe it is because you think that nearfield listening dont need acoustic control of the smaller room as with bigger speakers ion a bigger room ... Sorry but it is not the case ... Even in near listening in a small room the timing of the waves , the pressure zone distribution , the crosstalk control between speakers , any acoustic factor matter as much as with bigger speakers in bigger room ...

The Grandeur of Large Speakers:

1. Immersive Soundstage:

Large speakers, especially when paired with substantial upstream gear, have the capacity to create an expansive and immersive soundstage. This can be captivating, particularly for those who appreciate the feeling of being enveloped by music.

There is no fatigue with bigger speakers in a bigger room if all acoustic factors are in control ...

2. Long-term Listenability:

The overwhelming nature of a large speaker system might make it less suitable for long-term listening, as you noted. The sheer power and impact may be too much for extended sessions, leading to listener fatigue.

I totally agree with your wise conclusion :

Personal Preference Matters:

Your preference for near-field listening in a small room is a valid and common choice. The intimacy, precision, and comfort of such a setup align with the preferences of many audiophiles. Ultimately, the "best" audio system is a deeply personal choice, influenced by individual taste, listening habits, and the desired emotional connection with the music. Whether it's the grandeur of a large speaker system or the intimacy of a near-field setup, the key is to find a configuration that brings joy and satisfaction to the listener.

There is no going "big" concept in acoustics...

There is room of different size and geometry and bigger room ad infinitum or almost 😉 ...

The "rats maze" is in your head...There is two doors ...They are called "ears" ...

is it you God ? 😊

There is only one kind of speakers worth mentioning in this forum, it is full range speakers. How big they are is irrelevant, usually big.

What you want to say i think is that with big speakers in big room we can had the experience of the musicians occupying our room, the room acoustic  of the listener being replaced in ideal case by the theater acoustic where the musicians played ...

Thats right ...

But with small speakers well done in small room we can have the impression of being out of our room in the musicians own room acoustic , it is recording dependant also ...

The best is big speakers in big room ...

But small speakers in small room are not bad at all when well done ...

I dont need to have the impression that the live event fill my room listening space as in rock concert on big speakers ...I just need to be transported there in my head forgetting my room ...

It is what i had for a price too low to be mentionned in my acoustic small room ...

Small speakers in near listening in an acoustic dedicated small space beat all the headphones i heard and give intimacy with enough punch to be rewarding for my listening body with a large soundfield , imaging pin point and natural timbre ... ...

I can live with that ...

Live music is loud, effortless and impactful. Small speakers never really are. I can never be fooled into thinking I’m in the room with the musicians as I listen to small speakers.

To me, small systems are the equivalent of a very nice photography of an event; you will see everything on it but you’re not "there".

YMMV and we all have our preferences but I sure like a grand piano to sound like a GRAND piano!

We must learn basic acoustics...

The size of the speakers is secondary provide they are of good design ...They for sure must correspond to your goal and room dimension ... But this factor so important it is to begin with is secondary relatively to the basic acoustics knowledge necessary to well embed the speakers for your ears in this room ...

I own 4 inches active speakers in near listening i modified and i had clear 50 hertz...

I am in heaven ...