@terry9 My experience of slew rates is different. I am driving ESL's, and my amps sound good with 30V/us output transistors, better with 40V/us, and better yet with 50 V/us; that is, better transient response.
Interesting. Reading up on slew rates, it seems a higher slew rate results in more power capacity at higher frequencies. So you may be hearing extended linear high frequency response, and that definitely is a type of transient response. My hearing doesn't extend up as high as it used to. I think I stop somewhere around 15kHz.
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@mbmi and @simonmoon thank you for your comments on the Borresens.
I've done the measurements in my room vs the recommended spacing from the back wall and spacing between speakers and I think I can make them work. They have a dealer just north of me. Based on reviews and youtube videos they have the exact sound signature I'm looking for. Just need to see if it translates to the room.
I was worried they looked too modern but it's a look I can get used to ;)
The Spendor D7.2 are still very much in the running but they lack outrigger feet, and with two dogs and a cat that's actually an important consideration. I do realize I can buy outriggers for them.
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Something new to me about slew rate and horns - higher efficiency speakers can do what a lower efficiency speaker would require a higher slew rate from the amplifier to do. So low efficiency combined with a desire to play loud creates a requirement for a higher slew rate, assuming you don't want the high frequencies to roll off. Also, I learned that a high slew rate if not implemented carefully can come with overshoot and ringing that can also make for a "faster" sort of sound, but generally not thought to be in a good way.
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I’m not a JBL fan as is (kinda was in my early youth though), certainly not of their wider range of domestic offerings, but they’re one of the few originally pro manufacturers to still provide a home line of speakers where their pro origins can "bleed" into, and for that I find they deserve some credit.
@phusis Agreed.
My take: cost isn’t the real issue here, but rather the extent to which one is willing to go to materialize a potential from a specific, fitting design path. Vanity, dogma and/or conjecture are other issues; many won’t wade into the pro arena with functional looking (and sometimes cheaper) products in addition to, as mentioned earlier, large size.
It’s about the optics, prestige, brand name snobbery and what not (other bizarre stuff)...or they heard 300 dollar plastic trash PA at the bar and made up their minds. Play anything full tilt and all their "prestigious" audiophile goober stuff just falls to dust. But, somehow, these guys are constantly talking about the real thing, live, 3D etc (boggles my mind).
I came to my senses a bit after i heard the Daniel Hertz M1, kills everything high end for my musical tastes...but, literally a Pro speaker with the ’audiophile approved’ pricing, i.e., only a measly 200k. Other seriously engineered core pro stuff is never heard of.
My eventual goal is to build a separate sound shed on my property (to prevent high SPL related divorce) and...possibly setup a atmos rig around Meyer Sound’s higher end stuff and a stereo rig around just Pioneer or Yamaha. The cabinets will get their pristine looking wood stain/finish whatever and things should start to look just fine. It really isn’t that hard or labor intensive to spruce up some baltic birch. Funny thing...Wilson, Avantgarde, etc looked "just fine" somehow (hell no!) in this neck of the woods.
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@deep_333 @phusis -- I am curious, what is it about JBL that makes you not a fan?
Definitely not trying to defend the brand -- I've been happy with my Studio 590s for their cost/value and love my 4305Ps.
My biggest issue was the pricing jump from the 4309 ($2k) to the 4329 ($9k with stands). There's just not a passive model in between other than the L100s which aren't horns and just seem like a very different product. If they had a 10" passive horn model as an upgrade path from the 4309s to the 4329s I probably would have just defaulted to buying them and never would have started this thread.
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I just received my Boresen x1 and they are fast. Excellent transient.
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@jayctoy thanks for the update, can't wait to try them out myself.
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It’s about the optics, prestige, brand name snobbery and what not (other bizarre stuff)...or they heard 300 dollar plastic trash PA at the bar and made up their minds. Play anything full tilt and all their "prestigious" audiophile goober stuff just falls to dust. But, somehow, these guys are constantly talking about the real thing, live, 3D etc (boggles my mind).
I came to my senses a bit after i heard the Daniel Hertz M1, kills everything high end for my musical tastes...but, literally a Pro speaker with the ’audiophile approved’ pricing, i.e., only a measly 200k. Other seriously engineered core pro stuff is never heard of.
+1
@deep_333 @phusis -- I am curious, what is it about JBL that makes you not a fan?
In some, pro oriented circles in particular I find JBL to be overly hyped. Focusing more on their domestic offerings they have very good engineers (as they do in their pro sector), but I dare say it mostly doesn't translate into the more intricate aspects of sound reproduction - even in their very expensive models where they lack that last bit of refinement, overall coherency and tonal accuracy. That is to say: the basics are very good, but I don't find them to be the complete, and musically satisfying/authentic package the price calls for.
Of their contemporary models I prefer the actively configured M2's and the flagship DD67000 Everest's, both of which are very good (would love to listen to the Everest's actively configured). My personal domestic favorite of theirs may be the now discontinued (maybe not for the Japanese market) K2 S9500 - which entered the market in '89, if I'm not incorrect - with the first neodymium magnet woofers in production, the 1400ND. They may not have been the most refined speakers around, but what they did other areas was remarkable, and those 1400ND woofers are quite staggering, indeed unrivaled today in vital areas.
Their domestic speakers appeal to this segment with all that entails, but why go with a size-limited and expensively finished package when you can have physically more fully realized designs from their pro sector and from other pro brands, many of them older designs with better drivers and much cheaper at that? Give them some good amplification, configure them actively, accept their functional looks and larger size, and prepare to be surprised. Of course, we know most won't do that for a variety of reasons, but who dares...
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@phusis thank you for that very helpful response.
Playing in much lower price points, there has been fairly consistent buyers remorse from Studio 590 owners that move up to the HDI series (I stress not all, for some they believe it was well worth it). That matters when the 590s went for $1k before recently being discontinued and the comparable HDI 3800 goes for $5,500 at full retail.
To me, based on what I do for a living, it just seems their product range isn't focused and they're giving away a lot on the lower end of their range. Maybe their home audio isn't where they make money and it's largely an R&D business. But it just bugs me.
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@deep_333 @phusis -- I am curious, what is it about JBL that makes you not a fan?
Imo, home audio could learn a lot from a certain category of the pro audio space...like Levinson/Daniel Hertz tried to do more recently. For example, Meyer Sound and pro Yamaha (specific models), Pro Pioneer/TAD (to some degree) spend a lot of time and energy in getting the phase characteristics, slope, etc correct even in passive builds, which changes the whole design methodology. This tends to affect coherence, accuracy, spatial nuance etc when there is more than one speaker contributing to a soundfield. You are always listening to more than one speaker in a living space, i.e., not sitting around with 1 speaker (mono) in an anechoic chamber with your head in a vise. Ever wonder why a huge Klipsch sits there like an incoherent sore thumb while a huge Meyer disappears like a piece of cake and sounds like you deployed some object based codec?
JBL PA plays loud and clean, good for the price..but, not as nuanced as above mentioned. Their engineers are not foolish, just a bit arrogant sometimes (think they already know everything, nothing more to learn). Home audio...Wilson, Faber, etc seem to be genuinely ignorant/unaware in their approach of above mentioned..
To be fair, the avg home audio enthusiast/audiophile is not that picky, but, a percentage of the pros or the ones who spend the big bucks (at the least) are extremely picky ...it's their livelihood. Look at the guys who do installations at the multi/multi million dollar grand acoustic halls, etc. It is a world that's not known to many.
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The Spendor D7.2 are still very much in the running but they lack outrigger feet, and with two dogs and a cat that’s actually an important consideration. I do realize I can buy outriggers for them.
I am a longtime Spendor fan, but they have largely been employing the same drive unit technology for the last 10 years. They use what is essentially a $50 Seas Prestige tweeter in all their current speakers (the D series merely having a phase screen in front of the diaphragm). The original D7s were probably close to benchmark status for that price range 10 years ago, but other companies have since leap-frogged them considerably.
To my ears they don’t come very close to producing the perceived transients and tactility of many others currently around the $7K—$10K price range, not in the mids, treble, or bass.
I encourage you audition them for yourself because that is always the best approach, but buying them “blind” (or deaf rather) would be a mistake IMHO considering the other options now available on the market.
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@helomech thank you for your feedback. They are the one brand that I can't find a Chicago-area dealer for (have Borresen and Marten dealers relatively close and ATC in the city, and Dynaudio up north) and agree that at that price level I need to do an audition, regardless of return policy.
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The cheap 'pro audio' systems that I have heard are painfully awful. Here too, it seems like you get what you pay for. Sometimes. YMMV
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I've been running D9s for 6+ years and really love them. Previous to the D9 was 3 years of Magico S1s, a quick trip with Cornwall IIIs, and then a few years of Revel F52s. I like all of these speakers and they all sounded very fast and 'live' sounding to my ears. The Magicos were crazy fast and resolving, snares sounded so life like to me, but they could also be fatiguing and although they had very musical bass, I missed the slam that my previous speakers had.
When moving on from the S1s I tried the Harbeth 40.2 (among a few other British brands) and then the Spendor D9 and found the D9 to be a great fit between the two. Yes, the tweeter wasn't as resolving or as fast as the S1's tweeter, and their midrange wasn't as textured and rich as the 40.2, but they offered a good taste of what both speakers do best. Don't sleep on a used pair of D9s; I've seen them go recently in the $4K range and I think that is a great value personally if you like the D series sound signature. I have no idea how D9s compare to the newer 7.2s; but I like the idea of the dedicated midrange in the D9.
Regarding how they compare to newer models, I've recently demoed the Borresen X2 and I agree their tweeter sounded more detailed and ultimately refined than the D9s older design, but I personally preferred the Spendor's midrange to the X2 and although the X2 offers a lot of bass output for the size of the speaker, I didn't prefer it over the big Spendor's bass output which to me sounds more like a sealed box than a ported design; I actually think the X2's bass output would maybe be problematic in my room, at least with the distance I could place them from my rear wall. The X2s sound signature reminded me a lot of the Vivid Kaya 45 which I also demoed at the same dealer a while back, super detailed and clean, with some midrange texture, but also with the ability to maybe be a little lean sounding depending on the equipment used. These are obviously just my personal tastes and opinions. Many Harbeth fans like to tell me the D series is ungodly bright (or too 'modern' sounding). Listening for yourself is definitely the way to go if possible...; cheers.
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@ddafoe thank you for your response, that is super helpful.
I didn't prefer it over the big Spendor's bass output which to me sounds more like a sealed box than a ported design;
This is exactly what I'm looking for. I have two ported JBL models (not expensive, the Studio 590s and 4305Ps) and while they have many strengths, I much prefer to the bass signature of my sealed KLHs, although the active 4305Ps are pretty fast too.
I actually think the X2's bass output would maybe be problematic in my room, at least with the distance I could place them from my rear wall.
This is my only concern with the X2s, the room probably is barely big enough for them in a best case scenario, based on recommended dimensions, and there's a good chance they won't be enjoyable off-axis at all. The recommended listening dimensions for the D7.2s is how I have my KLHs placed there now.
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@deep_333 -- thank you for your response.
For example, Meyer Sound and pro Yamaha (specific models)
Do you find that the Yamaha pro strengths find their way into their premium home audio models like the NS 2000/5000?
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Yamaha like many big brands with lots of money make both state of the art stuff and total junk. While I have not heard NS 5000, it leans toward state of the art and have a lot thought put into the materials. The tuning (they published measurements) seem bright on axis to me. They would need less toe in than typical speakers for me to enjoy them. Where the JBLs you are looking at have more of a rolled off treble and probably need listened to closer to on axis to sound neutral.
sadly I think the lower end JBLs are pretty average (still good) and are held back by the small compression drivers. You can seen the diaphragm breakup in the measurements and hear it as fatigue. I think the Revel counter parts are better. But at the highend I like JBL a lot better than Revel’s current offerings (I have owned a number of speakers from both brands and speak with experience). Once you get into “real” compression drivers it is a totally different game.
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@james633 thank you -- so would you consider the 4349 in the higher end range or more mid-range?
That's still on my list.
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I have not heard the 4349 so I can’t really comment. It is the “cheapest” JBL to get the duel diaphragm compression driver which is a good thing but it is also pretty small at 1.5”. The bass driver has the same motor structure as their top of the line models.
I saw an interview with one of the JBL sales men/engineers and they commented on 4349 being the best “buy” in their line as it sounds a lot like (as in almost the same) as their top model (SCL-1) at a fraction of the price.
based purely on looking at the data I feel like the 4349 is comprised a bit and probably should have had a 2” compression driver to allow for a lower crossover. It would eliminate that dip and help with distortion. In actual music enjoyment with room reflections I am guess you will not hear the dip.
I own the 4367 and I personally have not head a more detailed treble. It is not fake detail from lifted treble either. If anything the speaker errors on the warm side which works for me as I am not too much into audiophile music these days and have just been listing to “real” music from my youth. I guess that is a sign of a good speaker as everything is good and the best stuff is still outstanding. Also don’t over look the adjustable horn levels. It really makes a big difference. 0.5db steps does not seem like much but it changes the speakers over all sound a lot.
I am sure there is better but at what cost and effort. If you like your current JBLs I am sure you will like the higher models. To my ear the higher models are much better.
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@james633 thank you for your feedback. Yes that adjustment option matters, my KLH Model 3s have a treble adjustment knob and I turn mine lower by 0.5db and it does make a difference.
I do enjoy my 4305Ps very much and while they don’t offer quite the detailed transients as my KLHs (they’re close, however), they are stronger in other ways that do matter. The KLHs can be a little harsh in the treble and higher midrange does have some sibilance with certain vocal tracks. The 4305Ps are not remotely fatiguing and that's been noted by others on forums.
I am sure there is better but at what cost and effort.
Very well said. Thank you again.
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I agree that Magnepans are excellent on transient response. And even more so if it is a 2.7x, which has a ribbon tweeter.
And, while I owned WATTS for several generations and have heard the Sashas, I doubt they have ANYthing on Magnepans if it is strictly "transient response."
Magnepan ribbons are said to be as fast as Raven tweeters (which Nola uses), and that is really saying something.
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172 responses so far. Who would have thought transient response was such an important thing for audiophiles? I figured it was at the bottom of the list.
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Do you find that the Yamaha pro strengths find their way into their premium home audio models like the NS 2000/5000?
Yamaha is a bit unique in the pro scene since they are also a instrument manufacturer. In the 2000s, they made a decision for their musical instruments division to collaborate with the hifi division... and the NS5000 - other speakers and electronics in the series came out of that collaboration. I do some recording at home, etc...and have other use for it besides hifi listening.
Their higher end PA stuff is different, would remind you more of Meyer, etc than the above mentioned.
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Transient response has been written about in audio journals for the past 50 years. And it is not my experience that it is a synonym for low distortion. Could you elucidate on that, because I must be misunderstanding you.
I can understand that something with more distortion might blunt the transient response, but a lack of distortion does. not automatically mean that a speaker will have excellent transient response.
And I assure you, a Magnepan, either a .7 or a 1.7 or ANY Magnepan (and these models are far under $10k) don’t have an iota of distortion in the bass.
Now if you’re speaking of the different materials designers use that cause a speaker to sound less coherent, I can follow that. Jon Dahlquist said - 50 years ago - that if a speaker had the same materials top to bottom, it would sound more coherent, but if the speaker had a cone made of one material, a midrange made of another and a tweeter of another, the speaker would sound less coherent. He did not say that it would cause the speaker to sound slow, just that it would not sound as though the speakers was "cut from the same cloth."
It would be nice if older issues of The Absolute Sound were available, because that was how many of us (much) older music lovers (not just audiophiles) learned how to listen - and evaluate - components. People seem unaware that the High End community is older than they are, and that concepts such as transient response are so old, we barely discuss it any more.
and for Larry5729, think of transient response as this: when you hear a sound, what tells you that it is a door slamming and not a firework going off? The transient response (also call "the leading edge") is the first sound coming off whatever is banged, or struck. You wouldn't mistake a door slamming for a firework, and the reason is that your brain sorts out - in a microsecond - the type of sound and then identifies it. That is due to the transient, without which, again, a piano would sound like an accordion.
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172 responses so far. Who would have thought transient response was such an important thing for audiophiles? I figured it was at the bottom of the list.
@cdc I just can't express how grateful I am with everyone pitching in with their feedback. I've learned so much and can, because of this thread, make a purchase decision with confidence.
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Daedalus Audio speakers have been the best fit for me and best overall that I have heard. I would be very tempted by the currently available used Apollos if I didn't already have a set of Ulysses.
Very natural sound, non fatiguing. Bass is fast, accurate, deep. Do not overload my medium room, but can produce chest thumping bass. At 96-98 dB efficiency depending on model, they provide a lot of amp pairing options. Doesn't hurt that they look great.
I usually listen without subs because I don't really need them most of the time, though my Rythmiks match up very well with a low crossover to dig deep to 20 Hz and below. I have a pair of Daedalus BOW subs on order more so for a future much larger room. I love the Rythmiks and will keep them in another system, but I'm excited to hear subs that can fully match the Ulysses sound signature.
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Transient responses from a speaker is a very curious topic. I always interpret what transient means by comparing the Appalachian mountains to the Rocky Mountains. Attack of an instrument being relayed through a recording, level of crispness in what you’re listening to, and what the hell goes on during a recording session when they’re playing with all these levers.
I always liked JBL speakers, have not heard them for a while.
I think what’s really important here is the quality of the amplifier and how it handles that sort of thing in relation to whatever the speaker achieves.
Probably tough to get a good definitive answer here. Sealed speakers are not that common and there's plenty of portage speakers that probably give really good transient response I'm not sure there's a distinction between the two.
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@emergingsoul thanks for your response. I get very good transient response through a Cambridge CXA61 integrated which is definitely not a high price point amp and maybe I just got lucky that it's a great match with my KLH Model 3s.
I did a lot of research and there seemed to be a prevailing, although not backed up by data, belief that a sealed design will deliver better transients on average because of the absence of a port. But certainly ported designs, especially at higher price points, can deliver superior transients as well. That was the primary reason for my posting the question, I wanted to get an idea of higher priced speakers that are found to be very good in this area of performance.
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I believe the dynamic speakers that Steinway made were especially fast but they are most likely out of production. I have Quad 2905’s with newer 2912 panels. I’d recommend the Quad 2912’s depending on your musical preferences. For classical/art music or jazz, they can be breathtaking but playing Rage Against The Machine would be utterly ridiculous. I run my Quads with my ASR Emitter II Exclusive at 250 watts per channel at 8 ohms. This is a perfect match but you can run them with much less. If you buy Quads, buy the 2912’s because those panels are superior to any of their previous panels. As for Sound Labs, definitely if you have the cash flow and room enough for their largest models.
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@goofyfoot thank you for the recommendation on the Quads. The ESL models are out of my price range but I've had a look at the Revela 2 and it is in my range and has been very well reviewed in the limited reviews out there. Music Direct is a dealer for them in the city. And yes I don't have a very big room to work with which does exclude some otherwise good options.
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And I assure you, a Magnepan, either a .7 or a 1.7 or ANY Magnepan (and these models are far under $10k) don’t have an iota of distortion in the bass.
I’ve owned both the 1.7is and .7s.
I’ve also auditioned the 3 and 20 series Maggies. They have better bass than most pistonic-cone speakers, especially when driven with high power, massive current reserve amps. That said, I’ve encountered quite a few speakers that I feel have better controlled bass with more realistic definition—less distortion I would say. For example, Børresen X series and Philharmonic BMR Towers both have considerably better defined bass than did my recently departed .7s. Those speakers are 5X and 2.5X the price of the .7s respectively, so it’s not terribly surprising that they’d have better bass.
Some other aforementioned speakers also have subjectively faster bass than the Maggies, though nothing I’ve heard under $15K/pair begins to match the Børresens.
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Magnepan sells a bass-only speaker, DWM, crossed over at 200Hz, but flat to nearly 5KHz. I use two to augment my pairs of 2805’s and 2905’s.’They are a push-pull design and are very fast.
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I eagerly look forward to the dipole dynamic woofer system Magnepan has been working on for quite some time now. It is said to be the basis for a new Magnepan planar-magnetic model, and to be offered as an add-on for the already available Magnepan models.
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