I have 50 years of critical listening, from classical forms of all genres, rock, folk, jazz. I have owned various cone speakers, Magnepans, Martin Logan electrostats, Apogee Scintlllas and Divas, then refurbished my Divas thoroughly with Graz ribbons by Bill Thalman. I've run them with AR preamp, Krell preamp and KSA 100 and 200 amps, now D'Agostino bi-amps, dcs Rossini and clock, Walker turntable, etc. The weight of Wilson Chronosonic speakers and subs are overall at the top of my wish (not bucket!) list. But when it comes to speed, instrument and vocal timber, imaging, focus, dynamics, musical accuracy and goosebumps I will give my strong endorsement to ribbons! A line source of little mass, they are so responsive and musically pleasing, they are remarkable. Once I heard and owned ribbons (1984 to present) I could never settle for anything else for mid-bass to high treble reproduction. Check out the current market if available to you. Only then can you truly give yourself a truly informed experience by which to make purchase decisions. They are musically truthful and unforgiving of modest sources and cabling, so beware - bring $$$ to the party. Most grateful I did!

@james633  thank you for the heads up on Voltis.

@deep_333  thanks and I do enjoy / have enjoyed my JBL horns (still love my 4035Ps). The goal of this thread was for me to find the best higher-end options that give me the transients/speed of my KLH Model 3s in a better overall offering. Thanks to this great community, I think I've found the 3-4 options that are going to offer that. I'm not looking at it like finding the perfect speaker, more like a watch enthusiast that has a dress watch, diving watch, etc.

I'm down to the ATC SCM40s, Borresen X2s, Spendor D7.2s, and Marten Oscar Trios. The Martens are out of my range but there's a dealer nearby so I'm going to have a listen. I'm still looking for a local Spendor dealer.

@jayctoy congrats on your X1s! Love the look of them.

Tommyuchicago, Kef Ls50 and Borensen c1. I just bought Borensen x1 monitor from TMraudio. They are coming Monday.

As to the relevance of transient abilities in a speaker and all that implies, it seems that area has now become a bit washed out, subjective in nature and with brands rather than general physics and design as the prevalent factor. That being said, if we’re speaking leading edge cleanliness/transient prowess in most of the audible frequency spectrum, and effortless at that at most any desired SPL (i.e.: easy of reproduction is not trivial here), large size and efficiency in addition to proper design/technology - from my chair - is inescapable.

@phusis . I think my last comment was fairly self explanatory.

There are several metrics that play into audiophile nirvana, transients being one of them. As long as a speaker tackles several of these metrics above a certain acceptable threshold, one might start raving about it. But, when you are locked into a design space, you can’t excel at everything.

I understand you’re a horn connesieur, speaking of horns, I had the older K2 9800 for a while. I have some big unheard of Yamaha PA in storage that probably beat that older JBl into dust (or what i remember of it). I may aspire to a Meyer Sound bluehorn or something similar at some future date. There are others who seem to do horns better than jbl, imo.

Can/does something like a Borresen transient wonder do the same things (other enjoyable things) as some of these big horns? NOT...different designs, different compromises.

The avg audiophile thinks that he gets the best of everything if he just spent enough on his 1 wonder pair of speakers....NOT. (he probably doesn’t have enough space or cash to accommodate more than 1 pair of very different types of speaker designs. Hence, he may either start lying to himself or the sales guy lied to him.)

I would take a good look at Volti’s measurements. The frequency response is very poor on axis. There is a ton of comb filtering off axis too. The time domain is very poor. The box however looks dead quiet and they look great. 
 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/volti-audio-razz-loudspeaker-measurements

I really appreciate the enthusiasm for Volti. That's a long trip and I am worried about the absence of a return policy, but I'm going to research more.

And I checked out Heil but their website doesn't give any information on speakers or did I miss something?

I second the visit to Volti HQ !
Greg really went out of his way to make me feel welcome and comfortable. We listened for hours to several of his models, even a prototype. Without a doubt a session unlike anything I’ve experienced. Definitely not the comparatively short auditions at a hifi shop or a show. He really went out of his way to make sure I was more than satisfied with what I was bringing home.

My large Heils'.....it's difficult to find woofs that can keep up with them....

tommyuchicago

Volti is a only a 7.5 drive down to Tennessee from you, you can listen to your hearts delight. Greg seems all too happy to give a factory tour, and set up speakers to listen in his audio room.

I'll be making that drive in April or May of next year to compare the Razz, Lucera, and Rival. If all goes well, I'll be driving a pair home with me.

@greenngoldcheesehead thank you for your recommendation. I love that Marten names their speakers after jazz legends (huge Coltrane fan).

The trios look beautiful, regretfully out of my budget range (unless I hit the lottery in the next month). The Borresen X2 is within budget and there's a dealer not far from me.

@ditusa thanks for these links. I found this especially interesting:

If you hear a system (hopefully not yours) that sounds "fast" or "slow" in the bass, enough that you have noticed anyway, that system has a problem.

Then my KLH setup has a problem because on tracks with complex percussion (Solange Seat at the Table is my favorite test recording for this) the bass behaves with appreciably more tightness and speed compared to my two JBL models. It's then a question of if I subjectively enjoy that presentation of the music better or worse than the JBLs, and for me the answer is that I do, realizing that many would likely prefer the bass presentation of the JBLs.

Other speaker types might be a hit or miss depending on what the OP would subjectively accept. 

I agree -- I've AB tested my KLH Model 3s against my JBL 4305Ps and Studio 590s and the KLHs best them in this category even though it has dome aluminum tweeters vs the JBL horns. It's why the 4349 is on my short list against a couple of other options that are dome tweeters.

I would add Marten Oscar speakers to your list.  They have ceramic drivers with extremely fast transients.  They have videos on YouTube discussing why they selected ceramic as their chosen material.  Their speakers are highly acclaimed.  The suggestions for electrostatic and Borreson are good as well.

 with fast bass at the cost of bass extension.

Fast Bass, Slow Bass - Myth vs. Fact see here!

Loudspeaker Technology: Part 1 see here!

Mike

If transient response was the only main consideration, then paneled, horned, or field coil speakers might be ideal.  Other speaker types might be a hit or miss depending on what the OP would subjectively accept.  As always, best to personally demo as speaker sonic preferences can be highly subjective.

@grislybutter yes that's it to me: lively and sharp that some may describe as bright or harsh if it's not their listening preference, with fast bass at the cost of bass extension.

thanks @tommyuchicago and @emergingsoul!

I guess it also relates to lively and not dull then, my novice rewording...

@grislybutter

It’s like gain and volume being used interchangeably.

Transient is that initial sound kind of peaky that somehow can be very awakening and very exciting.

A lot has to do with Recording quality and amplifier. I always view it as Rocky Mountains versus Appalachians when it comes to frequencies being Heard.

@grislybutter sorry must have missed your post earlier.

It’s not a buzzword in my experience

https://www.hifireport.com/understanding-transient-response-in-audio-a-beginners-guide/?utm_content=cmp-true

https://pubs.aip.org/asa/jasa/article/20/4_Supplement/596/661993/The-Transient-Response-of-Loudspeakers

@emergingsoul

I asked the same question and no one responded. I think it's a buzzword. 

Does anyone really know what transient means?

But I’ve also heard little 3/4" doped silk dome tweeters sound every bit as fast. It always amazes me that a little soft piece of silk with rubbery goo on it can sound like a high pitched metal bell when asked to.

I have two JBL horn-loaded compression drivers and a pair of sealed boxes with aluminum tweeters. I haven’t heard soft dome tweeters (yet) but also amazed they can be so effective at reproducing metallic sounds. I'm leaning hard toward the Spendor D7.2s and they are soft dome. Will be buying with a solid return policy just in case ;) Still need to find a place to audition them.

Years ago I tried to measure transient response to come up with an understanding of why I thought horns sounded better than direct radiators. In nearfield measurements I was shocked to see that cheap little bookshelf speakers that only sounded OK to me were actually faster and cleaner in the transients than my beloved horns, which were a bit messy because of ringing. I was looking for extremely high speed effects at the start and stop of notes at all frequencies, and what I learned is that my perception is far less effected by those than longer term effects of room reflections. My conclusion was that my perception of dynamics and speed from the horns involved time periods of 5 to 10 milliseconds or more - issues that arise from room reflections, not sub 1/10th millisecond issues that arise from the mass of the diaphragm, or slew times of amplifiers, or differences in arrival time between drivers. The improved direct to reflected ratio from the horns higher directivity, I concluded, was what was giving me the impression of horns being faster. I deduced this was also somewhat true for electrostatics and other dipole designs that tend to cancel along their sides, so the direct to reflected energy is higher at the listening position. I’m still not certain of this, because I have found ways to make horns sound really tame and seemingly lacking in dynamics, so a balance of frequency response is also important. Insufficient energy in the midrange, and other frequency response imbalances also seem to kill my impression of impact and speed. So a well balanced direct radiator may in some ways seem to hit harder.

Also the ability to turn up the volume without apparent strain on the system seems quite important.

This may not be true for everybody, so I’m not saying this is THE answer, but it’s an answer that at least partially explains what some of us our hearing that correlates to our perception of quick dynamics. I have heard plasma tweeters on various occasions, and they sounded good to me. But I’ve also heard little 3/4" doped silk dome tweeters sound every bit as fast. It always amazes me that a little soft piece of silk with rubbery goo on it can sound like a high pitched metal bell when asked to.

Open baffle speakers give you what a panel speaker can or electrostatic speakers but with full dynamics and bottom-end impact. Transparent to the source and quality of the music. You have the best of both worlds. 

 

The best transient response I've ever heard, are ion plasma tweeters. 

It's hard to beat drivers with zero mass.

Lansche and AvantGarde Acoustics both have very impressive transient response behavior. 

Next in line would probably be ribbons and electrostatic.

Diaphragm mass does have a strong correlation to treble quality and perceived “transient response” IME, even among tweeters made of the same material from the same manufacturer.

@celtic66 thank you this really helps tell me that I'm likely not quite ready for ATCs. Like the ATCs, the Spendor D7.2s  are described as achieving the qualities I'm looking for most, and will be more flexible with amp matching. 

I've owned/own four different pairs of ATC speakers.  Two active, two passive:  ATC 40A, 50A.  ATC 7, 20.  Even the small ATC 7 at 7 liters needs my Sugden A21SE class A at 33 wpc to properly push them around.  The ATC 20 needs the 125 wpc Luxman 509X to control massive magnets.  

Just saying that some may under power (translation, not enough stable current) sealed cabinet speakers producing anemic non-involving results.  Some will blame the transducer, that is not where the problem lay.

Active is where I live for reference, but the passives are also quite good.

One of the challenges with ATC is properly pairing their sealed cabinets and rather large magnets with stable current to control the drivers.  

I'm going to assume this is why they offer so many of their models in active designs.

Not the only choice, but ATC speakers allow you to 'see' inside the music with excellent detail, fast response to instrument/vocal attack in a very balanced way (when driven properly).  Most other transducers seem slow and muddled.

One of the challenges with ATC is properly pairing their sealed cabinets and rather large magnets with stable current to control the drivers.  Sealed cabinet designs usually present a more difficult load.

Enjoy your quest.

Even if you get to audition candidates, if you don’t hear them in your own room, you still have that uncertainty.

Agree 100% and don’t view in-showroom auditions as the final step. I haven’t bought the amp that will drive them yet -- I wanted to narrow down to a few models and then research amp options that appear will be the best match to my speaker candidates (with a bias toward wanting to buy a Parasound Hint 6 if it appears it will be a good match).

A good example are the ATC SCM40s, which based on feedback on various forums and reviews will require a bigger investment in amps compared to say the Spendor 7.2. The Spendor also, based on better sensitivity, will probably play better at low volumes while the ATC appears to need to get a little loud to open up (true of my KLH 3s as well). I don’t play music particularly loud so this is something I need to consider, as well as the Spendor probably being more flexible with amp choice.

I agree the Mofis may be a safer choice that enables some additional learning/experience to make a more informed choice at higher price points down the road.

Even if you get to audition candidates, if you don’t hear them in your own room, you still have that uncertainty.  It would be hard to find dealers who have the speakers you are interested in and are will to loan them out.  I see how the Mofi speakers are less of a risk at the much lower price and a chance to hear them at the dealer.  I hope that works out.  It would be an even better audition if you get to hear the speakers with your amp; perhaps the dealer will allow this.  The amp-speaker interaction is particularly important to the sound.

deep_333 wrote:

It appears that some big horn speakers mentioned on this thread have defied all physics, engg design, material science, etc and achieved unmatchable transients, as per the sales crew. No, they did not, but, whatever helps to sell your stuff.

Maybe you are blowing things a bit out of proportion here. Who claims that, and are you referring to below quoted paragraph by poster larryi? 

A dealer in the Washington DC area, Deja Vu Audio, builds custom speakers using modern and vintage components.  These can be tailored to one's specific taste, which is a BIG advantage of a custom build.  They employ vintage midrange horns and compression drivers because there is very little out there that can match these old drivers except VERY expensive drivers from the like of G.I.P., ALE, Cogent and Goto.  These systems truly deliver excellent dynamics while retaining a sweet, natural and relaxed sound; the weight and sense of large scale is particularly good when very large format horns are employed (some of these horns are monsters).

There's no hyperbole in above text by Larry (not by dealers), but rather what appears to be honest reporting of impressions - again, if that's what's really the source of your gripes.

Have you heard very large all-horn systems? And no, a pair of JBL Everest DD67000's (just a thought-up example) aren't big by that measure, and they're also only horn-loaded from ~700Hz on up. The Klipsch K-horns are fully horn-loaded, but severely undersized as such.

All-horn systems that plays down into in the 25-30Hz region, that are non-truncated down low and controls directivity in their entire range on up on the other hand are very large, and that's just with 1/4 wave bass horns (full-wave bass horns, as you know, are impractical for most for obvious reasons). What they nonetheless do compared to their mostly undersized and hybrid brethren - and this is important - is actually (and just barely) complying with physics, not defying them, and therein lies a big difference.

If anything it appears speakers of such size defies the acceptance in the minds of those audiophiles who've grown accustomed to their neatly small box speakers, and who would still have their cake and eat it too - I guess not least aided by those dealers who've sold them these speakers and filled them with marketing BS in the process. 

As to the relevance of transient abilities in a speaker and all that implies, it seems that area has now become a bit washed out, subjective in nature and with brands rather than general physics and design as the prevalent factor. That being said, if we're speaking leading edge cleanliness/transient prowess in most of the audible frequency spectrum, and effortless at that at most any desired SPL (i.e.: easy of reproduction is not trivial here), large size and efficiency in addition to proper design/technology - from my chair - is inescapable. 

The interesting thing about horn systems is that they sound particularly good at lower volume levels and tend to work well in small rooms

Yes in my old house I used the Studio 590s practically as near field (4 ft away) and they worked great with these massive speakers the size of coffins. Horns do some special things.

For their relatively low price I could take the risk, but for the price points we're talking about I'm just worried I don't have enough of a room for them.

The best transient response I've ever heard, are ion plasma tweeters. 

It's hard to beat drivers with zero mass.

Lansche and AvantGarde Acoustics both have very impressive transient response behavior. 

Next in line would probably be ribbons and electrostatic.

From a measurements perspective, improved driver impulse response could be equated (to some degree, one component) to improved transients.

This translates to small drivers playing respective frequency band, and increased number of drivers to achieve sound power.

Drivers themselves can’t be too compliant (signal reversal, phase shift ) or too stiff (resonances, stored energy, waterfall). Many poor drivers i’ve tested that go into some "high end" speakers don’t cut it, it’s one thing or the other.

A poor crossover design will introduce big electrical phase shifts and so on (nullifying benefits accrued from the above mentioned).

It appears that some big horn speakers mentioned on this thread have defied all physics, engg design, material science, etc and achieved unmatchable transients, as per the sales crew. No, they did not, but, whatever helps to sell your stuff.

What you sell is apparently always the best at everything, no exceptions indeed! (They don’t just win some/lose some as the engineers would admit, but, they just excel at everything according to the sales crew....NOT)

The interesting thing about horn systems is that they sound particularly good at lower volume levels and tend to work well in small rooms--controlled dispersion of the mid and high frequencies help to lessen the impact of room acoustics.  Big horn systems in tiny rooms are common in Japan where rooms are small and listening levels have to be kept low to not disturb neighbors.  I don't see the 12-foot distance to the speaker as a big problem.  Still, I can understand the anxiety over not having the right to return the speakers if they are not to your liking (they have a sound I think almost everyone will like, but of course, you may be the exception).

@doyle3433 thank you that is very generous of you to offer that!

I am worried about the no return policy -- I am not worried they won't sound amazing more I just worry they may overwhelm the room (12 ft from wall to listening position, low ceiling exposed beams treated with sound panels).

@larryi thank you for your recommendations -- i really like the Cubes but appear to be outside my target budget. Gorgeous products.

I have also considered the new Mofi sourcepoint 888 as Music Direct in Chicago owns Mofi and I can get an audition there. And that's in my budget. I'm going to Music Direct anyway for the JBLs so plan to listen to the 888s while I'm there.

Yes Volti is a very good brand for delivering excellent dynamics and speed while still sounding relaxed and natural.  This is a far cry from a brand like Zu which is very fast and dynamic but also shrill and brittle sounding (to me anyway).  Volti horn systems are the rare examples of modern horn compression driver systems that I like.  However, there are MANY vintage systems and drivers that can sound as good or better than the Volti, although many are quite expensive.

JBL horn systems can also be quite dynamic, but, they don't have enough mid-bass weight for my taste so they sound a bit thin and slightly harsh; still many, like the Everest are very much worthy of top end systems.  Fyne speakers sound fast and reasonably balanced and just a touch harsh.  There are quite a few high efficiency wide-range driver systems (i.e., not compression driver/horn systems) that are also very dynamic, such as the single driver and two-way systems of Songer Audio, the single driver backloaded horn systems of Charney Audio, and the single driver and two-way systems of Cube Audio (I particularly like the two-way Nenuphar Basis model).

At a lower price point, the MoFi Source 10 is quite dynamic with only a slight bit of harshness.  It won't deliver the weight and sense of scale that the Volti speakers deliver, but, they are surprisingly capable.

A dealer in the Washington DC area, Deja Vu Audio, builds custom speakers using modern and vintage components.  These can be tailored to one's specific taste, which is a BIG advantage of a custom build.  They employ vintage midrange horns and compression drivers because there is very little out there that can match these old drivers except VERY expensive drivers from the like of G.I.P., ALE, Cogent and Goto.  These systems truly deliver excellent dynamics while retaining a sweet, natural and relaxed sound; the weight and sense of large scale is particularly good when very large format horns are employed (some of these horns are monsters).

Volti Volti Volti !!

Talk about speed and dynamics. I’d bet these are the droids you are looking for. Yes it is true there is not a return policy. However if you are intentional and make an effort to listen to a pair, the return policy will be irrelevant. I’m sure there are plenty of Volti owners like me willing to welcome OP into their home to have a listen. Additionally one would have no problem reselling as they are sough after and rarely show up for sale used.

If you are within a drive of NE Ohio I’d be happy to host.

@phusis  @james633

Yes I've considered the 4329Ps but this is where inexperience comes in -- the 4329Ps are regularly on sale for $3,500 which is way below my budget and I worry I would not be getting the same quality as something in the $5k+ range in passive designs.

I also would have no problem buying passives used but do worry about used actives -- just a lot more could go wrong with them. 

I have read on threads that the 4349s and 4367s can be purchased at good discounts from dealers, there's at least two Chicago dealers I've found for them including Music Direct that also carries the ATCs.

@tommyuchicago,

JBL Synthesis 4429 Pair see here!

Mike

Yes 4329 and the pro monitor the 708p are cheaper options. 
 

i would buy used or demos when possible. I understand why people don’t but it allows me to buy speakers above my price range. I bought my JBL 4367s new in the box for less than the JBL 4349 retails for, food for thought. 
 

here are audio mart is a good place to start looking. 
 

tommyuchicago wrote:

regarding active design, I know that my 4305Ps really ruined my 590s for me and I think the active design of those JBLs were a big reason -- it was taking all that I loved about the 590s and making it sound more alive.

I'm down to Borresen X2s, ATC SCM40s (I'm going with the passive version) and JBL 4349 for auditions.

You could also consider the JBL 4329p's, in addition to 2nd hand (to stay within a given budget) ATC SCM40 and SCM50's in their active versions, now that you may have identified an aspect with the 4305p's, qua active, that appeals to you.  

In any case, hope you'll end up deciding for the speaker solution the appeals to you the most - irrespective of claimed transient prowess, passive or active config. Auditions before purchase decision, preferably at home, is paramount, but that should go without saying :) 

@phusis: regarding active design, I know that my 4305Ps really ruined my 590s for me and I think the active design of those JBLs were a big reason -- it was taking all that I loved about the 590s and making it sound more alive.

I'm down to Borresen X2s, ATC SCM40s (I'm going with the passive version) and JBL 4349 for auditions.

This was my first post on here and I'm just blown away by so many wanting to jump in and help a noob like me think through options. Thanks to everyone, what a great community on here!

La 50 Kef run by mark Levinson 100 w per channel.The transient of this combo is amazing very fast.Using aesthetix preamp.The meta maybe is even better.

what is transient response?

mapman wrote:

I’ve always found ATC to be a very unique, zippy kind of sound.  Is that transient response?

That's not least a trait of their 3" "superdome" midrange driver, a fantastic piece of engineering with its massive magnet structure und uncompromised construction. Configured actively no less, which is also an important factor here, it borders on electrostatic and horn-like qualities with its immediacy, resolution and unforced, unconvoluted clarity.

Improving the amp to driver interface with active config. is vital in accommodating better driver control and a more resolved, less smeared reproduction, which in turn aids transient prowess. 

@mtbiker29 @vthokie83 thank you this is great. I was worried especially about the Borresens that there were not local dealers for that brand--they feature Borresen on their website. I've got a few recommendations for Holm, too. And Libertyville isn't that far -- I just moved to Elmhurst.

Tommyuchicago

If you are in Chicagoland (I'm in Wheaton), you may try a Audio Archon which in Libertyville. He carries some nice brands, DeVore Fidelity, Harbeth, and Audio Note.

The owner Mike Kay is a great guy, a well regarded audiophile, and is well worth a phone call to see what he may carry that fits into your interests. I purchaed my CODA S5.5 from him, and he worked with me on price. His showroom is by appointment only, but he'll set up whatever you are looking at in his listening room.

Holm Audio in Woodridge carries some speaker lines, though I'm not sure what they have in their listening rooms. They are a little chaotic, but their prices are negotiable.

OP if you are west then i believe Next Level AV did have a pair of Magico's recently, and you could hear the Borreson speakers also as they are the only local dealer for that brand.