I don’t currently run ROON, but would like to begin correctly in order to give it a chance - and I understand that server (hardware) on which Roon core is installed is important for SQ (due to noise reduction and other factors).
What are the best hardware for SQ and usability where ROON core should be installed and why (be it audiophile dedicated servers or modified PCs)? Please comment on the rest of your setup for context if you could.
So to make a little bit longer story shorter, I didn’t think I was getting $5000 worth of performance from my Innuos ZENith Mk3 2TB for Roon core. Plus I only stream and I don’t rip CDs. So I sold my Zenith and embarked on a journey to find where the sweet spot is for the same performance at a lower price. I think I may have found it with an Azulle Kaby Lake i5 Inspire Mini PC with 32 (16 x 2) GB RAM and a Samsung 250 GB M.2 SSD that I installed. The total cost of all of this was less than $614.00 inclusive of sales tax. The Mini PC is fanless as opposed to the NUC and obviates the need for an Akasa $169 Turing FX case. I already have a couple of Sonore UltraRendus. So my streamers are separate from my Core. So far, my SQ from my listening sessions is at least no worse than the ZENith. If interested here are the instructions on how to install ROCK on the Azulle Inspire Mini PC:
Roon Nucleus connected via ethernet to a dCS Bartok streamer/DAC. IPad to control. dCS recommends ethernet connection vs. wifi or usb, which they invented. Small Green Computer sent me an optical converter for the ethernet connection to the Bartok to fine tune any noise. Simple, clean and sounds terrific. Also, the Bartok with it's own streaming ap, Mosaic, will tune Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify and others directly. Probably better sound by a small margin but much less metadata. Can also do Audrivana via ethernet from my MacBook Pro. So, dCS likes connection by ethernet, if available.
Thank you for sharing. This is precisely the kind of information I was hoping for when starting this thread.
Regarding: "I purchased a used Antipodes Core to put Roon Core on. It is definitely better than running Roon Core and Endpoint on the Innuos."
It is both interesting, and a bit concerning that an excellent piece of equipment like the Statement would not be able to handle both functions as well as only being an endpoint. Could you elaborate on what kind of sonic benefits you might have heard when placing the core separately from the Statement box?
- Everyone, thank your for sharing you experiences.
Hello everyone. Thank you for this valuable information. This was a huge help and I greatly appreciate it. It was a tough decision but I’ve decided to go with two of the ENO Ethernet Filter Ag over the EtherRegen. They are both great products but after speaking with some of my electrical engineering friends , I didn’t want to add another powered unit to my already existing quiet system. Thanks again for the help.
I have the ENO filter between an Etherregen and Innuos Statement, if I take it out there is a big drop in sound quality.
I purchased a used Antipodes Core to put Roon Core on. It is definitely better than running Roon Core and Endpoint on the Innuos. The Antipodes converts to DSD 512 in Roon without a problem but I have recently found Roon sounds better with this turned off. I haven't compared this set up with Experimental Mode yet.
I also have a Terminator Plus and Iris DDC and agree the combination is a bit step up from USB and using the clock out from the TP to the Iris has an amazing effect of clarity, timing and presence. Yes, it has a major positive effect on the Statements USB which I was not expecting.
Honestly you don't need to spend huge $ on a Roon Core platform. Most of these devices people are recommending are for use with USB direct connection, if that is your intended use then by all means spend the cash. But if all you want is the ability to try Roon build yourself a Rpi 3 or 4 with an allo digione hat, install OS of choice with RAAT roon endpoint and run core via ethernet from an old pc/mac if you have one. Cheapest way to get Roon integrated into your audio system. Running this over your network via ethernet doesn't have the isolation issues you find running the core platform directly via USB.
If you have a streamer and a server (two separate units): put the first good Ethernet Switch or Filter in front of the streamer. If you have two of these Switches or Filters.... well, you know what to do.
@
decathlon1991 Your question : " So my question is will the ENO Ethernet Filter Ag or the EtherRegen be placed from the Router to the Roon Nucleus or from the the Roon Nucleus to the Cary? "
I use the EtherRegen immediately in front of the streamer(s).
In @decathlon1991 's case, the Nucleus is not the streamer. It is another source of data. I think the primary goal is to remove any noise on the ethernet signal before it reaches the streamer, and this includes noise introduced by the Roon core.
But it's worth trying it in both locations to see what works best.
I was just going by what the ENO manufacturer says on their website:
"A unique (patent pending) passive filtering system which plugs in between your network switch or router, and your streaming device."
AFAIK, EtherRegen is not passive but I could be wrong. Either way, I'd go with what the creator of the product recommends before experimenting with a different setup.
It should be placed between your router and Nucleus.
Hmm... I had better luck putting my EtherRegen between my server and my streamer when I was using a streamer. Since @decathlon1991 is using the Cary as the streamer, I'd recommend trying it in both places. And you could consider getting two ethernet filters and using them in both places.
Let me better understand. With my connection, I go from the Router (Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Carver) to my Roon Nucleus ( Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Cable) and then to my Cary DMS600. So my question is will the ENO Ethernet Filter Ag or the EtherRegen be placed from the Router to the Roon Nucleus or from the the Roon Nucleus to the Cary?
Thanks all for sharing. These experiences are great and definitely helpful.
ENO sounds very promising!
I have the EtherRegen and like what it does in the system. I tried to take it out again and again because its pricy but always unsuccessful because sound is degraded ever so slightly after taking it out, and its enough to drive one crazy. So I put it back in :) As mentioned, it is actively powered, I use an external power supply for it, which I find to add SQ benefit as well. I like the fact that it also accepts optical fiber as I have a long run to my listening room and I also use the benefit that it is a multi purpose switch to run ethernet to the other equipment in that room from the ’A’ side of the Etherregen.
If you would like to further improve the SQ of Cary, try ENO Ethernet Filter Ag between your Cary and the router. It’s based on a same principle as EtherREGEN but works passively. You can read about it on this thread.
Hello all that have commented on my question. I definitely appreciate the suggestion. My thing is at the end of the day, I don’t want to re-event the wheel and start the whole process all over from the beginning.ive already been down that rabbit hole and don’t want to experience that again. Those who have truly dived into the whole streaming process understand where I’m coming from. I’ve owned some of the best and expensive streamers and DAC/ Streamers out there As far as DAC and Streamers are concerned, I finally found a unit that does Hi Res, TIDAL with MQA and Qobuz well without any hiccups. Having experience with computers, at some point they will require upgrades and act funny. And then comes the disaster, dropping your music while you’re listening. True DAC/ Streamers offer better security of less disconnect. The Cary Audio DMS600 uses the flagship VERITA Series AKM4497EQ VELVET SOUND architecture premium 32-bit DAC. The only reason why I haven’t switched to the DMS700 based on the other thread is because most have switched from the DMS500 or DMS550 but haven’t heard anything about the benefits of folks switching from the DMS600 to the DMS700 and see an improvement in sound quality. The DMS600 is by far superior to the 500 or 550. The 600 was there Reference piece last year and did extremely well against other top of the line streamers. I just want to see if there are any other add-ons that can help even if an individual that has owned a top of the line Lumin and added an additional item to improve the SQ. Don’t get me wrong, the Cary withe the Roon Nucleus sounds incredible. It’s like a high performance vehicle or your home, you always want to improve something, lol.
I found no need for extra computing power when I first installed Roon. I just put it here on my desktop iMac (old, 2009, 24", 4GB RAM). It isn't the fastest in the world, but acceptable for and old retired audio nut going on two years in the basement. I too am looking for a Core, but the sound is very good. My first move will be to hook the iMac to the rest of my audio system with Ethernet.
Here's what I have and it has been running great for many months with zero issues:
Roon Optimized Core Kit (Rock) running on Intel Nuc NUC8I7BEH (Intel Core i7-8559U 2.7GHz). I have 16GB of memory, 256GB SSD for the OS and a separate 1 TB SSD for Storage of the music files. I also added a second external 1TB SSD connected via USB for additional music storage.
I wanted zero noise - no fans. So I took the Intel Nuc board out of the Intel case and installed it in an Akasa Plato X8 fanless PC case. You can buy these on Amazon. This black case looks great, and more importantly it keep everything running cool despite my fairly complex Roon DSP settings or when I play DSD music for hours. When I touch the case, it's barely warm, not hot. And I leave my Roon Rock on all the time, it is never turned-off.
My music files are Flac, DSD/DSF, and some Apple lossless.
I have used this Roon server with USB connected direct to an integrated Amplifier (Lyngdorf TDAI-2170), as well as through Ethernet to a Naim Uniti Nova. I also used it connecting to a DAC that was connected with Raspberry Pi running RoPieee connected to my Oppo DAC, which worked great also.
Hope this helps, but message me if you have any specific questions.
Just get a roon nucleus, it’s all you need. Don’t clutter things up with an unnecessary addon streamer, unnecessary.
no one has a clue why they need a streamer and a nucleus. Nucleus is all u need. Maybe add a lps, but this depends on your power quality to home, lps for most is snake oil.
I have a question. I’m using the Cary Audio DMS600 Streamer/DAC with a Roon Nucleus and a Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Cable. Is there any additional devices that will improve the sound even more like an OpticalRendu, UltraRendu or an EtherREGEN? Any other option available? I am thinking about the Cary Audio DMS700.
The Cary DMSs have a nice network bridge (renderer / endpoint) built in. If you want to improve something, then upgrade to the DMS-700. There is thread in here about a few people upgrading to the 700 and being very happy.
Later on, if so inclined, you can try an EtherREGEN or some other type of Ethernet switch or filter.
Everyone focuses on the DAC but most DAC's are pretty darn good. The weakest link is often the music server. I have a several thousand dollar mac mini I thought was just fine but it was destroyed hands down by the pi-HAT described above.
So the music server is very important.
The music server does NOT have to be expensive. I would be interested to see if others have observed the same as I did.
Get a roon endpoint. Raspberry pi is your starting point but with a small upgrade to include a well designed HAT (hardware attached on top) you are one step from unbelievable sound at a great price.
For me, the PI2AES was the way to go and beat my mac mini hands down.
The PI2AES (the so-called pi-HAT) is the roon endpoint. You can't install roon directly on a raspberry so instead you install an operating system that functions as an endpoint. I used RoPIeee|XL which is pretty straightforward if you know anything about unix:
The difference between this and running on my mac mini was like night and day. I would say this was the biggest bang for the buck I have yet experienced on my system.
I run this into an ADI-2-DAC FS and it sounds amazing. Here's a great article that does a showdown using the PI2AES:
I have a question. I’m using the Cary Audio DMS600 Streamer/DAC with a Roon Nucleus and a Audioquest Vodka Ethernet Cable. Is there any additional devices that will improve the sound even more like an OpticalRendu, UltraRendu or an EtherREGEN? Any other option available? I am thinking about the Cary Audio DMS700.
I recently went with a fanless, noiseless Small Green Computer sonicTransporter and an opticalRendu with Roon and couldn't be happier. It plays MQA, 32 / 768 PCM, and up to DSD 512. And, of course, Roon with it's new 1.8 rollout is great to work with.
Spend your money on your DACs - not your Roon core. Roon core can run on simple PC. I run mine on a repurposed Dell Win10 with 16GB of memory. The library is on a NAS outside the box. The Roon core PC runs 'headless' and occasionally I access it using VNC from another PC.
When I had my Zenith Mk3 and before the most recent Roon updates I was running my Zenith in Roon plus Squeezlite (experimental) and I agree Squeezlite and Squeezebox sounded really good. Maybe better than Roon. But I didn’t have to use iPeng thank goodness. I don’t think iPeng is very user friendly. But things went haywire with the Roon updates. I had to switch to plain Roon core, which was much better. But I sense that the Innuos strained with upsampling and DSD. So I sold the Zenith. I am going to experiment on the low cost end with an Azulle mini PC which will cost me $613.47 to build. If that doesn’t go well I plan to get an SGC SonicTransporter i5.
I think you could be disappointed going from an Aurender N10 with the Conductor app to a Roon-based system.
I have an Innuos Zenith Mk. 3, upon which I was running Roon Core. At the suggestion of another member, I tried Squeezebox using Ipeng as a remote. The sound was significantly better; the music was clearer, the background was quieter and there was greater dimension.
The results were pretty shocking and somewhat disappointing because I really love the Roon UI and the Ipeng UI is nowhere near as easy to use or full featured.
I’d be curious to hear if other folks have had a similar experience.
It can convert virtually any input type to virtually any output type, so you can optimize the connections to your devices based on what works best and what cables you have available.
It isolates the inputs from the outputs and removes a lot of the noise.
It has extremely high quality oven-controlled femto oscillators (comparable to what you'd find in the best streamers and dacs) so that the signal delivered to the DAC is as clean and jitter free as possible. It can also sync to an external clock if you use a master clock source, or if your DAC can output clocks (like my Denafrips Terminator Plus).
If purchased new, the Gaia is about $1700 (price adjusts based on exchange rate with Singapore dollars). The current model Bryston streamer (BDP-3) sells for $4100. Mine was the previous model, although used the same output board as the BDP-3. So as a Roon endpoint, it was equivalent.
My main motivation for purchasing the Gaia was to have a way to use i2s with my DAC (which at the time was the Denafrips Terminator - since upgraded to the Terminator Plus). I had read that i2s worked best with the DAC. I had not intended to sell the Bryston when I bought it, but I found that connecting directly to the Roon server via USB worked at least as good (I think maybe better, but the difference is very subtle).
Using i2s from the Gaia to the Terminator made a very noticeable difference in sound quality. I haven't had a chance to compare other inputs on the Terminator Plus (I've only had the new DAC for a few weeks).
I'm using fairly nice cables for the USB and i2s connections (Audioquest Diamond USB and Tubulus Argentus HDMI/i2s). But I initially connected the Gaia to the Terminator using a cheap generic HDMI cable ($12 from Amazon) and even with this cable, the difference was significant compared to using other inputs connections.
@jaytor thank you for sharing this. This is great.
I just have some questions:
Is the main purpose of the Gaia DDC to re-clock or anything else? Also, I am not familiar with the economics of the Gaia DDC vs the Bryston Streamer. Was your main motivation to sell your Bryston because it was more expensive than the DDC or some other reason? I ask this because in essence (if I understood you correctly), it sounds like by adding the DD converter, it enabled you to remove the external streamer.
I'm also in the DIY Roon ROCK camp. I built a Roon server using a NUCi7 in a fanless Akasa Turing case. I built a higher end configuration because I wanted to be able to support multiple zones simultaneously and experiment with DSP. So my configuration with an i7, 16GB RAM, 512MB M.2, 1TB SSD with a linear power supply was about $1200.
I initially connected this via ethernet through an EtherRegen to a Bryston BDP2 streamer (with IAD upgrade) and then to my DAC using AES3.
I bought a Denafrips Gaia DDC and, after some experimentation, ended up selling the Bryston and connecting my Roon server directly to the Gaia using USB and then from the Gaia to the DAC using i2s. I also moved the EtherRegen to the router side of the Roon server.
After installing the Gaia, I found no benefit in using the streamer.
I have enjoyed a Roon Nucleus Plus server for over a year now and it's been "rock solid", no issues streaming or updating or operating. I use one of the USB ports for an external hard drive, the other to connect to my DAC and it's dead quiet.
I had previously run the core on a Dell laptop and it ran and operated fine, but the sound quality of the USB port wasn't as good as the Roon server.
Guys No worries. I took @mapman comment as trying to be useful and appreciate for offering it, and @yoby’s comment as trying to provide stress release from the kind of mistakes we all make...and Lord knows, I have made many mistakes in the past (and will likely make in the future). Good thing is that none of the products discussed here are really a high risk for me, just fun components to try and share info about. Also, I had/have roon installed on PC, its not going to work for me. Its very noisy, so I would like to move on to something.
So back to the original topic-
To clarify, what I mean by the best, is the ’best for the various price points’. Another words, I just wanted to hear people’s experiences and feedback about what they have tried and liked the most. This helps me, and so I opened up the discussion to the forum because it will likely help others.
So if someone shares that they have tried RPI and NUC for example, and if Rpi was as good as NUC, why not use RPI? If Wolf is experienced to be better then U1 or Statement, I will focus on Wolf, perhaps now, perhaps later. If RPI is as good as Wolf (even if they are at different price points), I try RPI (even though its very very small in size :) ).
@ tk21 - thank you for your clarification. Interesting product to consider. @ arafiq sounds like you have been where I am now with roon :)
BACCH-SP appears to have preamp and dac capability as well. It is intriguing but I would be interested in how well it does all the things that it is designed to do
The main thing BACCH is designed to do is crosstalk cancellation for "3D" effects on soundstage and imaging. For that, you don’t need to spend $20K+ on a BACCH-SP device. You can get the BACCH4Mac version ($980-$6980). Theoretica offers a pre-configured Mac Mini, which you also can use to run Roon Core.
You can run a music server on any computer you want to start and sample the waters. You might find that to be just fine.
I never recommend going for “the best” right out of the gate. The best may just appear to be best based on cost. Walk before you run. Also for cd res streaming I’d recommend a wireless connection from server to streamer to help keep the gear that makes music isolated from what is typically a noisy wired computer network. Others swear by using a wired network connection for the streamer. Both done right will likely be just fine.
@newtoncr -- it was actually I who asked about the differences between Lumin U1 and Wolf Audio. Thank you for the detailed comparison. Very helpful, and sounds like you’re thrilled with the server. I was seriously considering Lumin U1 at one point but will definitely do some due diligence on Wolf Audio before making the final decision. Another product that I’ve great things about is Aurender N10/20, but I’m too committed to Roon at this point.
I don't think you ever specified a budget. If the rest of your system isn't $35k or above, you'd be hard pressed to do better on sound quality that the Innuous Zenith Mark III, It's stunningly good and you can rip your entire CD collection with it. It also handles USB audio output to your DAC, which IMO, is the best.
@newtoncr - thank you for sharing your experience and findings. Very helpful. I actually wonder how the Lumin X1 would compare with Wolf and Statement.
@thyname - I understand what you are saying. Splitting server and renderer is recommended mainly to isolate both sides from cross process noises and I well built single chassis machine should be able to handle isolation better internally.
@jmarshak --- your Esoteric K-01 is a SACD/CD player but it is also a USB & S/PDIF DAC. You can get a Roon Ready streamer that has USB out to your K-01. That streamer can be anything (depending on how much money you want to spend), including something like what I mentioned earlier, Sonore microRendu or ultraRendu. Then you Server (Roon Core on roon's lingo) will stay in a different machine, such as NUC, Nucleus.
That's the two-piece solution Roon often recommends. But only because people tend to use noisy general purpose computers as both Core and Endpoint, which degrades the sound. If you do use a great one-piece solution, optimized for audio, such as the Wolf or Innuos mentioned above, you certainly can, it's definitely a (good) option.
@jmarshak I had the lumin u1 , comparing the lumin with the wolf streamer, using the t+a sd3100 hv dac , the lumin lacked in every aspect . The sound stage was smaller , the bass was not clean and defined , the high was harsher with less detail . The wolf sounded more organic , the highs were not echy, the vocals were whole and the bass very defined and clean. Comparing the wolf with the statement, the bass was very similar , the mid was slightly less focused through the statement and the high lacked a tiny detail through the statement. I have played diff formats in comparing the statement and wolf including dsd 512 and the results have been consistent. Hope this helps . you can contact joe Parvey he is always looking forward to talking to you .
Hi ggoggin Thank you for sharing your experience. Interesting!
djones As you probably know, LPSs can range anywhere from 60 bucks to a few thousand. For the NUC, I would use a Paul Hynes which runs about $750+cables . They are almost impossible to find used.
thyname Right now I use an Esoteric K01 Dac. Not Roon ready. My current streamer is Aurender N10. It is not compatible with Roon, but I’ll use to compare SQ
Roon is running on a very low-powered old pre-existing computer (Intel Q9450 - way below an Intel i7 NUC, for example) running Windows 10 and located on our home (wired) network. Despite having up to three zones running at the same time, we have not experienced any dropouts in sound, and appears capable of supporting additional zones. This computer does not do anything but act as a Roon server. We've got our own library of about 700GB of flac files on the server, and additionally I have a Tidal subscription that we access via Roon. Once I understood the advantages of Roon, I purchased a lifetime license. No regrets so far. I will probably upgrade to a NUC (specifically a NUC8i7BEH) at some point in the near future for lower power consumption.
For my main system, I purchased an Allo USBridge and Shanti LPS to stream to ($400 in total.) The USBridge output goes to a Schiit Modius ($200), and from there into my preamp. I'm a former musician, and my preference seems to be for a very transparent sound. The sound quality is very satisfying thus far. Having been bitten by the audiophile bug I am now slowly upgrading other parts of my system - for example, I purchased a Benchmark DAC3 and am going to run some blind tests of that against the Modius. The other relevant factor is the Tidal subscription - I have access to so much additional music (not that everything is on Tidal - it's not), and I'm discovering new things to listen to every day. I've heard $100K+ systems, and they're amazing - no argument there - but the bottom line is that this system makes me very happy on a daily basis. YMMV :)
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