I've seen most of them and by far the two that stand out are Neil Peart of Rush and Ceasar Z. of Golden Earring. For non-rock I would say it's a no brainer with Buddy Rich.
I saw a show on TV a few months back that makes a convincing case for Ginger Baker. He certainly was one of the most offensive people I ever saw being interviewed.
What a nut case!
They mention that maybe he kept switching projects because he needed to keep moving creatively or maybe that his mental state did not allow him to stay in one group too long and his creative juices flowed more when he switched.
Dweller, Aynsley Dunbar would surely be in my top ten. He is very inventive, and technically beyond reproach. Listen to him on Frank Zappa's great "The Grand Wazoo" and be wowed.
Here's Charlie Watts' opinion. (Rolling Stones drummer, for those who don't know)
"Yeah. I would say learn to read music and listen to other people other than John Bonham. Now youve got totally the wrong impression about what I just said I can see it in your face. [Leans forward and speaks carefully.] John Bonham is the best at being John Bonham and doing what he does. Or did unfortunately, hes dead. He was the best. There wasnt anyone better than John like that, and thank goodness weve got some records so that you can hear it. But there are a lot of other people.
Ginger Baker was a much better drummer than John Bonham, if you really want to know about drumming. Ginger Baker is the best drummer to emigrate out of England. Really, Ginger is. And the guy who Ginger idolized whatever the word was we all did was a guy called Phil Seaman. And Ginger learned everything off Phil. But Ginger can read, you know. Gingers not a foal. He can read music, he has wonderful chops, he has rudiments down. Having said all that, I dont. So I would say to anyone not only my offspring, but anyone thats what you should do, really. Otherwise, youre locked into doing what I do. Which is fine. It worked for me." .
I saw the Ginger Baker documentary, too, and it's clear that there's just something wrong with the guy. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I actually laughed when Ginger hit the interviewer with his cane at the end. They'd just spent several months together and seemed to have bonded (a bit), when Baker hauls off and whacks him. The poor guy just stands there bleeding and staring. It was awful and really not funny, but it was also just too bizarre for words.
OTOH, while Ginger Baker may be a pretty ugly human being, he can sure play the drums.
BTW, another name for this thread is Anton Fier of The Feelies and, later, The Golden Palominos. He was always providing interest and unexpected rhythmic flourishes for both of those bands.
I am a fan of Cream and Ginger Baker since the beginning, but that said, he does not belong in the same rare and exalted place as Mitch Mitchell, Tony Williams and several others in my own personal hierarchy. Inventive and different he is and was. Top of the heap technically or artistically, I don't agree.
i must be the only person alive who doesn't like john bonham's drumming (no disrespect to the memory of the man himself)--he was always behind the beat and gave the songs a lumbering, rather than propulsive feel. i just saw a 2007 zep tv concert with bonham's son jason on drums and actually preferred it to the original edition (even though plant's vocal range was shot)--the songs had more swing and less bombast. i do agree with charlie watts on ginger baker, tho--that maniac can play.
Loomis - I understand what you're saying about Bonham, but playing on the back of the beat without slowing down is the essence of the "heavy" sound. There's a distinction between playing on the back of the beat and dragging and it's hard to do the right way. Carmine Appice played that way on the Vanilla Fudge records, but not quite as extreme.
Bonham was the right drummer for Zep at that time. In another band, maybe it would have been different. I heard Mitch Mitchell in a band called Ramatam after Hendrix died and it sounded like shite.
Chayro, I completely agree about Ramatam. I had the album because he was on it, but poor Mitch must have needed a paycheck pretty bad to join those scrubs.
chayro, you got to the essence of my point--playing on back of the beat without slowing down the heaviness is critical. charlie watts or al jackson (who did all the booker t/stax stuff) play behind the beat, but don't hold back the whole flow; bonham doesn't have the same touch to my ears, although i'm biased towards the hyper, driving drum sound like baker, keith moon, stewart copeland.
Loomis - now that I think of it, I remember a record called Lord Sutch and His Heavy Friends. I think Bonham and Page both played on it, but it was horrible and Bonham definitely came off as ponderous. So it's a matter of compatibility as we all know. That was one of the worst records ever made.
just listened to lord sutch on mog (i vaguely remember him being sort of the wild man fischer of england in the 60s). it's remarkably terrible--i think it was intended as a parody by all but the singer, who's apparently a genuine loon. thanks for sharing...
just saw the "beware of mr. baker" documentary on netflix (ginger's quite a lovely fellow) and watched with interest his "drum battles" with the likes of elvin jones, max roach and art blakey. great a "rock" drummer as baker is/was, he's really not in the same league as the aforesaid three--they're speed, technique, etc. are astounding, while he sounds wild and unschooled in comparison. good film.
Based on Blu-ray performances that I've recently seen, I really agree with the previous Vinnie Colaiuta comments. His drumming on Jeff Beck's performances have really caught my eyes & ears!
Additionally, I don't believe Lenny White has been mentioned. He puts down some very musical & impressive licks on Return to Forever: Returns - Live at Montreux [Blu-ray] (2009) with Chick Corea on keyboards, Al Di Meola on guitar & Stanley Clarke on bass. In fact the musicianship displayed by everyone on this DVD is more than impressive.....
Kenny Arinoff ( "the bald guy" ) referred to above. Saw him front row at a drum clinic. Never heard such force, power, yet with sublime delicacy. There were drummers in the audience, namely, Bun E. Carlos of Cheap Trick. Carlos' jaw was on the floor in awe.... Regards....
.....and the really neat thing about Kenny is he could play it all....classical, rock, jazz, country, pop, etc.. He holds a degree in classical music. Was Mellencamps long time drummer. Will never forget it.
I see that many (though not all) Audiogon members judge drummers by the same yardstick the general public does: technical "chops". There are other considerations, ya know.
In the Big Band era, one drummer was chosen by band leaders above all others for his ability to make the band swing harder than any other: Dave Tough. You have probably never heard of him, as he couldn’t solo like the other guys, and his technique was not very well developed. But the other band members loved playing with him because he made them sound better. His playing resulted in the band making better music! That's what makes one drummer "better" than another.
Here is a story repeated by the hippest drummers: The legendary guitarist Danny Gatton was doing a gig with his new drummer, the drummer’s first with Danny. After a few songs, Danny said to the drummer: "You know all that fancy stuff you’re playing? Don’t". Many of the best musicians in the world think a lot of drummers "overplay".
One of the most in demand studio drummers for decades has been Jim Keltner, of whom you may have heard (Bob Dylan, George Harrison, John Hiatt, Bill Frisell, Ry Cooder---Ry schedules his recordings around Jim’s availability, refusing to record without him). In discussing his playing, Jim said he wishes he played more like Roger Hawkins. Heard of him? He was the drummer of the Fame Studios house band, heard on all the Jerry Wexler-produced records for Atlantic Records (Aretha Franklin, Wilson Pickett, Solomon Burke). Roger’s playing creates the deepest "pocket" I have ever heard, creating a killer "groove". His playing is not "flashy", does not draw attention to itself. But like the playing of Dave Tough, it creates great music. It’s all about the music, right?
Jim has also professed his admiration for another drummer not mentioned here: Levon Helm of The Band, the most musical drummer I have ever heard. I have been asked "What do you mean musical?". If you have to ask!
I was with my brother-in-law in his living room, listening to an internet radio station. The song "Beyond The Sea" by Bobby Darin came on. When the short drum "break" (played by Don Lamond) ended I was giddy with delight, expressing my love of it (it’s my all-time favorite drum break, too short to be considered a solo, though it actually is). The brother-in-law said "Really"? It didn’t sound that hard". I explained to him that what made it so cool was not the difficulty in executing it, but the difficulty in coming up with it. The part just sounds so f*cking cool!
IMHO the best I ever saw was Phil Collins when Peter Gabriel was also in Genesis. And someone who has been mentioned many times Keith Moon is my other favorite. However as great as Keith was nothing gives me the audio musical experience like Collins from that era. He has a unique style that I know of no one that compares.
Speaking of Keith Moon, in the late 60’s and early 70’s Jazz was starting to infiltrate Rock, with drummers having "rudimentary" training making their appearance. Jazz musicians had traditionally looked down their noses at Rock players, as those players (such as Ringo Starr) often had no formal training. But with the appearance of Mitch Mitchell (Hendrix, of course), Bobby Colomby (B,S,&T), and Carmine Appice (Vanilla Fudge), that was changing. Still, Rock drummers were not considered the equal of Jazz players. Keith Moon was asked in an interview, in an attempt to humiliate him (or at least put him in his place), if he could play in The Buddy Rich Big Band. Most drummers would admit that, no, they certainly couldn’t. But Keith, bless his heart, instead said "No, and Buddy Rich couldn’t play in The Who". Exactly! Would a Jazz drummer have made The Beatles music any better? Or could it be that a Jazz player would have actually make it not as good?
Speaking of Jazz, didya hear what Buddy Holly said about it? "Jazz is strictly for the stay at homes". ;-)
lp, you are absolutely right. Phil Collins in early GENESIS... just sublime. Watch the Belgian TV program from March 1972 and that basic drum kit... all those dozens cans and symbals with Peart and Portnoy etc. are unnecessary really and just for showing off. His drumming is most fluid and musical not to mention creative second to none. Actually he was the only pro in the band and is the foundation for the classic GENESIS sound. Later in 70´s he learned to play jazz w/ Brand X.
Jon Hiseman, Bill Bruford and Carl Palmer come very close but are more jazz than rock really. Mitch Mitchell is too and his work w/ Hendrix is quite magical. Vesa Aaltonen in Tasavallan Presidentti is superb as well, and so is Pierluigi Calderoni in Banco. And Giancarlo Golzi in Museo Rosenbach RIP
Corky Laing, Lee Kerslake, Bill Ward and Iain Clark (Cressida, Uriah Heep) and Ted McKenna (Alex Harvey, MSG). Phil Ehart and Moon the Loon of course ; ^)
Best rock drummers in my mind may not be necessarily the most talented, but the drummers that perfected provided a back drop to the rhythm of the guitar and song. That said, I will cast a vote for Alex Van Halen
Agreed. Bonham style is definitely "lumbering" - it feels as if the wheels are always about to come off! He seems to lurch and time seems suspended and then he has the ability to catch up on the fill or the One beat. I find such a deep pocket and loose feel to be fantastic for the Blues style music that Led Zeppelin mostly played.
czarivey, I understand that many rock drummers are originally influenced by jazz, but you must also realize that the moment that they start playing rock, they are rock drummers who have jazz influences.
dhpeck, shadorne, and roxy54, agree with all ya’ll. czarivey, if by best you mean technically, you have a point. It takes a lot more technique to play Jazz than most Rock, so Jazz players coming to Rock have a distinct advantage. Frank Zappa and Steely Dan are two musics that benefitted from having Jazz players as drummers.
But I’ve heard Jazz players who don’t quite understand what makes Rock work, and play inappropriately for the music. It’s not just what you play, but what you don’t as well, as the old saying goes. It’s also horses for courses; as Keith Moon responded when asked if he could play in The Buddy Rich Big Band (a question intended to humiliate, or at least put in his place, him): "No, and Buddy Rich couldn’t play in The Who."
One reason I don’t care for a lot of Rock drumming is that I don’t like Rock music, for the most part. But I love Rock ’n’ Roll! Just last week I saw a clip of Tom Petty talking about getting into music at ten years of age, listening to Rock ’n’ Roll. He then made a point of saying "Not Rock. Rock doesn’t swing." Exactly! A lot of Rock drummers, including Bonham, don’t either. The creator of Rock 'n' Roll drumming, in the opinion of a lot of Rock ’n’ Roll musical historians, was Earl Palmer, who swung like mad. He was a New Orleans Jazz drummer, but really knew how to play what was best for the music. Insanely great drummer!
Steve "Bam Bam "Becker, from South Side Johnny was an excellent drummer. A prolific jazz drummer believe it or not. When he joined SSJ of course he had to play their stuff. He was a personal friend and turned me on to alot of great jazz albums when we were young. Great guy just to hang out with, RIP Steve.
Bobby Whitlock (organist/singer/songwriter in Derek & The Dominos, organist/singer on George Harrison’s All Thinks Must Pass album, member of Delany & Bonnie and Friends) states unequivocally that the best Rock ’n’ Roll drummer of all-time is Jim Gordon. When I recorded with Emitt Rhodes he told me the best musician that played on any of his albums was Jim. I’ve never heard better, and I’ve seen Mitch Mitchell, Ginger Baker, Bobby Columby (Buddy Rich thought highly of his playing in BS&T), Jim Keltner (John Lennon’s first choice, as well as Ry Cooder’s. By the way, in a Modern Drummer magazine interview Jim expressed his admiration for the playing of Roger Hawkins, saying he wished he---Jim---played more like Roger. Roger is also a very favorite of mine, along with of course Levon Helm), Keith Moon (just so you’ll know: Keith played all single-stokes---like Ringo, he didn’t know the 26 rudiments), Charlie Watts, Ringo, Terry Williams (Rockpile, Man, Dire Straits), Marky Ramone (laugh if you want, but in a Modern Drummer interview Tony Williams expressed his admiration for Mark’s drumming), and hundreds of others.
For those who love John Bonham: Listen to Earl Palmer’s intro to Little Richard’s song "Keep A Knockin". Sound familiar? Pull out your copy of whichever Led Zeppelin album contains their song "Rock ’n’ Roll". They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. ;-)
As for me, Steve Gadd imo strikes the perfect balance between the display of technique and it’s use in service to the music. Some will understand that statement, others won’t. No offence intended ;-) . In the genre I am these days most interested (Americana), nobody is better than Harry Stinson (Marty Stuart’s Fabulous Superlatives). Subtle, tasteful, musical. And he sings great harmony.
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