Hi paulb6666:
Almost a year later I am still thrilled with the Blades. Still in the same 14 X 13 room. They are wonderfully coherent and detailed, with satisfying non-boomy bass response. All 3 speakers are truly excellent but my preference is strongly Blade. For those who might not be able to squeeze Blade into a budget, the KEF Reference 3 offers 85-90% of Blade's performance at much less cost.
Happy listening!
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A year later but this is exactly what I have in mind. Should I get the Blades, keep my Thiel CS3.7's and the Revel Ultima Studio 2's, or a pair of TAD Evolution 1's. They are all great but my /our house can't handle the divorce payments
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Thanks to all respondents! I was unable to attend RMAF but I did audition
the TAD Evolution One, Magico Q1, YG Carmel 2 and the KEF Blade 2, the latter two in my 14 X 13 listening room. The Blade 2 was my winner, in my room. Despite their physical presence, they acted as a small two way monitor as relates to coherence, soundstage, and speaker disappearing act, even in my small room. In this respect I agree completely with Yysantabarbara's post. The Carmel 2 was a very close second, with great coherence, but the soundstage was considerably smaller in comparison. They may not have the very last bit of detail as the Magico Q1 or Revel Ultimate Studio 2's, but in every other way, the Blade 2 bests these in my small room. And I enjoy a "large sound" without the boominess, at reasonable volumes, one might expect from a relatively large floor stander in a small room. There are so many great loudspeakers and I hope to be happy with the Blade 2's for some time! Again, my appreciation to all. |
I just remembered that I used to have a pair of KEF speakers that had the tweeter in the center of the driver. Honestly, they were just OK. They were no more coherent than any other well designed speaker I've heard. |
Not sure if they would work for the OP, but Cabasse has an ah hem interesting twist on this idea. |
I love Tannoy and have owned some models over the years (Eyris DC3, Dimension TD10, Kensington SE, Canterbury SE), and heard several more. Lots of great speakers there, particularly the Prestige line. But I'd be wary of the 10A and recommend auditioning before buying. I've heard it a few times at my dealer, and the resolution and imaging are fantastic but the energy up top is just too damn much -- searing, in fact. I've heard Tannoys run the gamut from dark to bright and these were the only that were flat out searing to my ears. Yes, you can fight that back down with room setup and gear matches, but from my experience this once is well above the norm up top. |
Excellent over-view Yyzsantabarbara.
The Thiel CS is my reference loudspeaker. The only (2) other speakers that I would like to demo someday, are the Sony SS-AR1 and Verity- both cost substantially more in comparison.
I want to read about your thoughts on the Sony SS-AR2 ?
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
This thread is a subject matter that I have been investigating for about 5 years now.
I owned the Revel Salon 1 for 5 years and liked it a lot but did not love it. I loved it the day I heard it at a store and made an impulse buy. I then started to learn more about speakers and the coincident driver technology intrigued me.
One day I happened to go to a store that sold the Thiel CS 3.7. I listened to this speaker for hours and came away floored. I thought all the music that I listened to at home sounded way better on the Thiel CS 3.7 over the Revel.
This was going to be the speaker to beat. I ended up following a girl to a small beach community and a very small apartment. So I sold the Revel and bought the Thiel SCS4 monitors as a stop gap until I eventually moved in to a bigger home and had space for the mighty Thiel CS 3.7. The SCS4 speaker was OK in the small room I had it in 14 x 13.
A few years later a friend of mine bought the KEF LS50 and lent it to me to have a listen. I was again floored. This was an incredible monitor and beat the pants out of the Thiel SCS4. So I thought, if the KEF LS50 monitor is better than the Thiel SCS4 monitor, maybe I need to have a listen to the KEF Blade. I did this one day for about 5 hours. It was hard to compare the Thiel CS 3.7 and KEF Blade but the Blade had 1 amazing trait that made me pick it over the Thiel CS 3.7. They both had huge soundstages but the KEF allowed a listener not to be parked at the perfect sweet spot to get great sound. I had more leeway as to where I could sit to get the best sound. The Thiel CS 3.7 was great in this regard but the KEF Blade was greater and now the speaker to beat.
I am currently using only the KEF LS50 speakers with great satisfaction in my office system and I cannot see the day when I would replace them for my small office space 12 x 11. However, I still want a big floor stander for hopefully a big room in a new house.
I have been listening to other coincident driver speakers and others speaker type at shows and dealers in Southern California. I have heard some mega buck speakers and none of these have beaten the KEF Blade.
Coincident driver types I have heard for long hours at stores:
Vienna Acoustics THE KISS
TAD Evolution 1
KEF Reference 1
KEF Reference 5
Great non-coincident driver speakers:
Wilson Audio Alexia
Magico Q7
Sony SS-AR2
Focal Sopra
My top 2 favourites in all the speakers I have listed so far are #1 KEF Blade and #2 Thiel CS 3.7. The others are all amazingly good but do not move me in the way the Blade and CS 3.7 do. |
I can understand why the OP chose the subject line that he did, as his 14 X 13 room is a bit on the small side (with other potential issues as well). If the speakers need space from rear and side walls, driver integration might become an issue; and ergo coherence as well.
I would recommend Thiels, but the 3.7's might be a bit much for such a small room, perhaps some of Thiel's other smaller offerings might be a more appropriate fit. |
ZD,
Well, there you go.... |
The OHM CLS Walsh driver might be considered coincident but its not coaxial. The Wide range Walsh driver used is what makes it special. Crossover is at high frequency and very simple as well. Most coherent sounding! Hence the name CLS (Coherent Line Source) driver. Also highly omnidirectional.
The only thing short of the "holy grail" is its not full range single driver20-20Khz but a functional close approximation if you look at the frequencies where most music we hear occurs. That and maybe the taget audience is the masses of music lovers not audiophiles so cost is a factor in the design. |
"09-30-15: Mapman
The only thing alone that has a good chance of assuring anything is a large number of very happy users."
That's exactly what my aunt says when she takes these little blue pills she's always popping. Her dog likes them too. |
One more idea to consider. Coaxial drivers or single drivers are one way to skin this cat. However, certain multi-driver speakers have either no electrical x-over network or a minimalist x-over. To my ear, this may be more critical to coherence than driver placement. One such design, from Reference 3a, uses no x-over on the midrange driver. This deCapo monitor only employs a really minimal network to protect the tweeter.
A slightly different example is the Gallo Strada reference. It has limited deep bass due to the lack of a true woofer. However, its twin mid-bass drivers are run full range and are augmented by a very robust tweeter with no electrical x-over network at all.
The other thing to consider is x-over frequency. Adding a subwoofer to the Strada (necessary IMO) adds a crossover, but it's below 100hz where IME it's less likely to disturb a sense of "coherence" (provided that it's an appropriate sub and integrated to the mains properly). Similarly, some of the older, large Ohm designs use a main driver that is run "almost full-range", crossing to a tweeter at 10khz, again well out of the high sensitivity zone.
just food for thought. |
The only thing alone that has a good chance of assuring anything is a large number of very happy users. |
Coincident drivers are no guarantee of anything. I've heard coincident and non-coincident prototypes of essentially the same monitor and even from 3 feet away there was not a "coincident advantage".
Now, the large spread of drivers, and maybe other design aspects, does make the Salon 2 less coherent than many other speakers with fewer drivers and a shorter spread of drivers top to bottom, but you need not go to a coincident to eliminate that effect, which can be distracting, though this is still a great speaker IMO. |
"Zd542, thanks, Vandersteens are wonderful loudspeakers and indeed very coherent, but in a small room with nearfield listening, IMHO a coincident design may make for better driver integration and ease of placement."
I don't see a problem going with a pair of Model 1's or 2's, but if you must have something smaller, look at a pair of ProAc Future 1 or .5's. They work very well in a small room. I'm from NYC so we have a lot of experience with small rooms. As far as coherence goes, the ProAc's aren't quite as good as the Vandersteens, but they are better than my Wilsons, JM Labs, Audio Physic and B&W's of similar price and design. They do a perfect job of blending the ribbon tweeter in with the rest of the drivers. |
Steen Quatro with carbon tweeter....
Ccherance and EQ bass plus minimal load on your amp.
I am pretty biased tho...last three speakers are from Richard...
You might give him a call and talk about the room..he answers the phone , press 1 and ask for him... |
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Audiobrian-
I will concur w/ Mattmiller. Look no further than Thiel CS 2.7 or CS 3.7 models. This is my reference loudspeaker and it is a killer bargain. Take the left over money and put it into better gear, especially, cables & power cords.
Keep me posted & Happy Listening! |
Thank you Soix and Larryi.....Raidho D1 or C1.1 and Gradients are indeed
worthy considerations. Although I find myself leaning just a little toward KEF Blade 2, I am planning to attend RMAF 2015 to listen to most of these contenders before moving forward..
And yes, the VAC Ren Sig 2A preamp and Clayton Audio S2000 class A solid state amplifier are a wonderful combination.... very musical and natural....Please note Clayton Audio is alive and well and now selling direct. Mr Shen builds wonderful class A amplifiers, is great to deal with and stands behind his gear!
Thanks again to all! |
A lot of interesting recommendations. I have heard the Gradient speakers in a small room and they sounded very good. They are extremely flexible in the way they can be set up so that they can be placed closer to the walls and corners than most other speakers. I have only heard the YG Carmel and KEF Blade 2 in very large rooms (they sounded quite good), but I think they are certainly contenders. I also like the smaller Raidho stand-mounted speakers. I think all of these speakers can deliver nice, coherent sound, regardless of whether or not they rely on a particular technological approach.
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Man, maybe you have high ceilings or something, but it sure seems like you're trying to cram a lot of speaker into that room. Given the bass capabilities of today's better monitors and their usually better ability to be coherent in the near field, that's definitely the way I'd be going (no need to limit yourself to concentric drivers IMO). Heck, you could even add a couple good subs and have true full range performance with the flexibility to better integrate the bass in your room. In your price range I'd think a used pair of Raidho D1s would be an awfully nice speaker in your room. Or for even less the Joseph Audio Pulsars with a couple subs would be really sweet if they meet with your tastes musically. So many great monitors to choose from. Love your electronics BTW -- what a great match that sounds like. Anyway, best of luck. |
Regarding Evolution One vs. CR-1, the CR-1 offers a bit more IME, but it is of the diminishing returns type. The coaxial material difference is likely the key to more musical info. I do think either model can be the cornerstone of a very musically involving system with the right attention to all the rest. |
I just noticed you said you had a smaller room. If your system and your wallet are up to it, you might consider the Magico Q1. I'm not a big Magico fan, but the Q1 can sound gorgeous when set up properly with the right electronics. Quite pricey, but maybe you can find a decent used/demo pair in the $15K range. Just something to look at if you can. |
Thanks so much Chayro, a very good point. Two way monitors or floorstander (like YG Carmel) should also be strongly considered...yes indeed! |
Although bass response if often lacking, compared to what you have, I have found that multi-driver speakers sound less coherent than two-ways, coaxial or not. There are exceptions - I found the Coincident Extreme to sound very coherent, as well as the Rockport Grand Mira. It's just easier to design a good 2-way than a good 3-way. I think. |
Thanks for all the reccommendations and comments!
Jbrrp1, thanks, are you indicating that the TAD Evolution One may be as strong a performer as your TAD CR-1's?
Zd542, thanks, Vandersteens are wonderful loudspeakers and indeed very coherent, but in a small room with nearfield listening, IMHO a coincident design may make for better driver integration and ease of placement.
I'm not hearing much about KEF Blade 2's. I did hear them at an audio society meeting a couple of months ago, in a larger room, and they were very coherent, if not quite as detailed as my Revel Studios.
Thiel 2.7 and 3.7 are coherent as well, but the company is being taken in a different direction, and may be dinosaurs shortly.
Appreciate your thoughts! |
Gradient Revolution(passive or better yet in active mode) has a custom made fibreglass coaxial mid/tweeter along with 4x 12" woofers and would be worth considering.
Hard to find/audition but worth it in my opinion .
Would works well is a room your size. |
Thiel himself died, and whoever is running the company now is moving away from the type of designs they built the company on. That said, Thiel is not for everyone. Not everyone can take all of those metal drivers. It's a good recommendation though. Thiel is a very coherent speaker. |
The Thiel CS2.7 is a speaker to look at seriously. I am pretty sure Thiel is a leader in coincident driver technology. I cant understand why no one here has mentioned them? |
Nothing is more coherent than a Vandersteen, But you need the right electronics and setup. |
I am running the TAD CR-1's, but what got me interested and down that road was being smitten by the Evolution One's at last year's RMAF. I am delighted with them, and I suspect the Evolution One would delight, as well. I use a VAC Ren Sig II preamp and their Phi 200 amp to great affect, but these speakers are also liking a pair of Merrill Veritas nCore amps that are still breaking in now.
You really should carefully audition the candidates. The speaker purchase is rather defining, IME, so choose wisely... |
Thanks for your responses Rello and Akg_ca!
Any thoughts on KEF Blade 2 or TAD Evolution vs Tannoy.
The Eclipse looks very interesting with some impressive single driver technology, however with expected high treble and bass limitations with the single 4.7" driver. |
TANNOY ...... especially with the VAC.
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2013/11/03/rmaf-2013-tannoy-and-vac/
TANNOY perfected the dual concentric design...full stop. |
Ive been wanting to listen to the Eclipse speakers..this one in particular...http://www.eclipse-td.com/us/products/td712zmk2/index.html |
