Has anyone compared, Gryphon Diablo, Gamut Di150, Vitus SS101, Krell FBI, APL UA-S1 Jeff Rowland Continuum 500? Please add what you found to be best integrated.
Do the posters,that mentioned Dussun,Nad,Cayin and the like really believe they are the equivilent ( or better )then the S.O.T.A. Integrated's stated in this forum? Just because you may own or like a product doesn't make it a contender when going against some of the heavyweights. The OP asked "Best Integrated ,Period" While there is no best of anything,please be realistic when with your answers.
yes I have.it does have the Pass's house sound,but nothing extraordinary.....i think it is more for people who wants to have a taste of pass sound without having to spend so much more.
In short,respectable but certainly far from spectacular[to these ears of mine,I should add]
Compare the Rowland Continuum 500 to "the best" separates. It'll stand that test. Final selection will be a matter of taste and priority, but the Rowland will be a contender.
Fafafion, have you had the opportunity of listening to the Pass integrated? To which other integrated amps have you had the opportunity of comparing it directly? How did it fall short?
It is funny isn"t it?It all seems so simple on paper ,but when it comes to executions it is something else..
Of course we are talking about THE BEST of the bests here.If you want a decent sounding Intergrated[Entry level/mid-fi] sytems,it isn't difficult.
I am talking about REFERENCE systems;i.e Intergrated amp that sound even better than the seperates...I think we are talking about a different level of systems. I am sure ,that The Pass Intergrated will sound good in a lot of entry level/mid system;but to take on the Very best??I do not think so.
If you want the VERY BEST;it is better to leave it to the specialists IMHO.Even Mercedes ask Hella to make the lighting systems for their cars;how difficult can making light be?
I though the problem with DAC "preamps" was the poor quality of the attenuator, as opposed to let's say a Goldpoint Attenuator being used in an Art Audio Carrissa, or a Placette RVC used in a Moscode 400, for example. Good attenuators are not cheap, but if you use a good one, and you are ok with passives, I'm not sure why "integrating" one in an amp would be a challenge to a Nelson Pass or other good amp designers; of course, some like what a tube buffer and tubes in the "pre" can do to the overall pre/amp circuit. It does seem that the use of a passive pre built into an integrated chassis is becoming a very coming design approach, even in some very expensive gear.
I have had some integrateds - The three best that como to my mind is the Gryphon Century (the Diablo should be far better, The new Burmester Integrated, and my current Acoustic Plan SITAR.
Depending on your tastes, a SET integrated is a nice option, I liked my time with the AN Meishu but sure there are somo other good contenders out there.
Yes, even when you add a passive attenuator,[I am sure you know that all single box CDP has a built in "preamp",}It is very difficult to do it right....
In line with the topic of this thread, I believe the Rowland 500w/ch Class D integrated with phono would be the best sounding with the Ohm 5s.
I also really like that VAC Phi Beta though!
The thing is I'm pretty happy with what I have at present, so I am not inclined to jump at anything right away even though I would expect a significant improvement on several fronts. Also, I have 2 kids still to put through college....
If something in my system dies unexpectedly, I may be there sooner, dude.
Not sure if I'd go new or used in this case yet.
I think I am definitely going to try to check it out at my closest Rowland dealer when I have a chance. Unfortunately, I think it is about 60 miles away though I get in there from time to time.
Mapman, there are a couple of Continuum 500 offered on Agon. Instead of going to a retailer you may purchased one of these discounted pieces. . . they are bound to be very new. And if the C500 ended up not being your cup of tea, you can probably sell it at no loss.
"Do you know if Rowland has a satisfaction guaranteed policy of any kind? Its probably determined more by the dealer, I would guess."
Actually it's a Rowland thing and personal. He's outlasted many of his dealers and doesn't want unhappy customers. Mark at Soundings has told me of Jeff doing repair on amps that were well over ten-years old and even throwing in free upgrades as part of the deal. That's not an "official" position, but represents how Jeff personally feels about these things. He truly does all the warranty work himself.
If you've got a nearby dealer, then use them. If not, call Soundings, they'll cover the gaps in US distribution and they're the top Rowland dealer in the US, but they don't aim to step on other dealers. Tell them Dave sent you. Who knows, I may get five-bucks off a cable or something. (I have no "arrangement" with Rowland or Soundings, in case anyone wonders. I paid full retail for my Continuum 500, without any hesitation).
Now that I re-read you post, you might have been talking about listening on approval or a 30-day, money-back guarantee. That's a dealer thing for sure and I don't know a dealer that provides that. If you've got a dealer nearby, then I'd expect that you could use the demo unit over a weekend maybe. (At Soundings, they had a C-500 on the floor, in a system that I knew. Hence, I was very comfortable when I plunked down my money).
Fafafion, do you need an integrated circuit when you simply add a passive attenuator? I'm not techincal, but I don't see why there any difficulty with this. Now you may or may not like a passive (many do) and prefer an active gain stage, buffering,and power regulation as it relates to the preamp section, but that is another, more difficult design challenge - no?
I get by very well, especially in the small 12X12 room the big Ohms are currently in, with the ~ 120w/ch Musical Fidelity A3CR that also doubles into 4 ohm.
In my larger room that I also like to use them in, (~30X20, L shaped, the A3CR still goes plenty loud, but 500w/ch doubling would add even more meat to the bones and go as loud as ever needed. I had a lower current Carver amp that did over 300 w/ch prior, but only did marginally more into 4 ohm. It went as loud as could ever be wanted, but did not take control of the Walsh driver fully at lower volumes, making for a noticeably thinner sound
I'm leaning towards the Rowland as the best no compromise solution in my case. There is even a dealer not too far away in DC I believe.
Do you know if Rowland has a satisfaction guaranteed policy of any kind? Its probably determined more by the dealer, I would guess.
Mapman, my friend, there's no getting around it, at $8800 ($9200 with phono)for the Continuum 500, you're talking "real money", BUT I think it's an incredible value or bargain. I've never had a moment of buyer's remorse. As you note, the pre-amp section competes with separate pres that cost more the C-500 in total. It's really a no-compromise integrated.
NAD is a great "value" for those that can't afford or don't want to afford 9k (I fully understand this position and I've been there myself in the past), but no one's going to say that it'll compete with an ARC Ref.3 pre-amp, as is actually said of Rowland's pre. Forget about the power side, where Rowland is literally in a class almost by itself.
If you need more power than 1000 watts into 4 ohms, then you'll have to consider separates, like a Capri driving two Spectron III monoblocks. I have little doubt that would be wonderful, but expensive and much bulkier than the C-500. Hey, but if you need the power, you need the power. (I suspect - hope - that the 1000 watts will be enough).
Yes, this is for certain. They would love the 500w/ch doubling into 4 ohms, high current, and damping. There is little doubt in my mind.
They are very forgiving however once you meet this demand. They impart their highly coherent omni-like sound to almost any decent piece of equipment properly matched. Better pieces will deliver their unique qualities as well, but the Ohms are so inherently lifelike that a listeners priorities regarding the sound they are used to might well change.
I asked John Strohbeen at Ohm what amp to go with for the Ohm 5s. He suggested NAD as a good value option. I've had NAD stuff. Not the most coveted of gear for audiophiles, but I am sure a good NAD on the Ohms would compete well with much higher end electronics on many other speaker designs.
The highly regarded pre-amp section (including phono) on the Rowland adds value for it in my case with the Ohms on my current system.
"I'm still thinking though that the Rowland 500w/ch Class D is probably the best high end match for my big power sucking Ohms."
This could be very true.
The pre section is "all new" and really brings a transparent sweetness and evenness that very few separate pres can match and then you have the well controlled power section, operating in DC (the pre does to) to give you ultra quiet background, all provided with very generous power reserves and high damping capacity. Even my traditional dynamic speakers appreciate the power, but the Ohms may well DEMAND it.
Another contender might be the LSA series hybrids. All have the same structure and put out 150watts. The Signature and statement have slightly different circuits and improved components. I have heard the basic reference version when it was DK designs, the other 2 are supposed to be a big step up. The basic one was very good indeed. Strong support from Bound for Sound and Stereo Mojo too.
Fafaion If and when Spectral designs integrated amp on the base of 250 amp and 30SS preamp that could be a great integrated, you just need their one box player the 4000 and quest for electronics is over.
That sort of thinking is exactly why Intergrated amps made by most companies cannot make it to the big league..
To me,I have no problems with Pass Labs,I have many friends who like their warmth sound,but my issue is with their design approach with intergrated amp.
No, it is not as easy as you think it is,in fact IMHO,you need a specific technical skills to be able to executes the Intergrated cuircuit.
This is what I suggest you guys do;Go out and listen to these following Intergrateds this weekend[NEODIO 150,ASR Emitter,Lavardin IT/IS Referance,Kondo Ongaku,Karan]and compare them to ANY seperates at ANY price in almost ANY systems....I have,but I want you guys to find it out for yourselves..
there is no bebest integrated. howver, i would nuy the original jadis orchestra 60 watt at a fair price. it is my favorite integrated amp.
my favorite amp, which i would buy in a minute at a fair price, although not the subject of this thread is the conrad johnson mv 125. it is my favorite amp of all time.
it is a joy to design a stereo system around that amp.
I'm still thinking though that the Rowland 500w/ch Class D is probably the best high end match for my big power sucking Ohms.
I almost went straight to Class D power amplification during my last upgrade, but decided to go with the Musical Fidelity A3CR which I picked up for a pittance in the interim in that I thought it would work well (it does) and give Class D some additional time to mature.
The A3CR is doing very nicely, but when the time comes to replace the Carver pre-amp, one of these beefier integrateds with a good integrated phono section may well be the way I go .
The Absolute Sound review of the Pass INT-150 is in the September issue.
They said the front on view is "As imposing as a Peterbilt"
Neil Gader said "it's sweet and romantic, neutral and warm". Robert Harley in a side bar to the main review, "There must be a strong family resemblance between the INT-150 and the XA-100.5.
Neil went on to say "It's a musical force of nature."
You have to take reviews with a grain of salt, but as a former Pass Alep 1.2, 3, J, and XA-30.5 owner, I can tell you that Pass SS is very special and the only SS (well, maybe Ayre)that appeals to me, though I still prefer tubes.
While it may not be the "best" in absolute terms, the set of two Pathos Classic One MkIII tube hybrid integrateds running in Mono mode are wonderful. I have not encountered another amplification scheme quite like it, nor one that sounds quite like it. Quite a lovely concept and execution.
At upgrade time I sold my MkII's to a man downsizing from Boulder separates. He was surprised at how little he gave up in terms of performance. I wasn't surprised.
I think the Pass is basically their X-150 amp with a passive pre, I don't think there should be any complexity or compromise that might occur when building a pre into an amps chassis. Pass certainly knows how to build amps, adding as passive attentuator (perfectly matched to the amp portion) should make for a great integrated, assuming you like the sound of a Pass amp, I do. I've not heard the integrated, but I would be shocked if it was a mighty good one. Not bad looking either IMHO.
The biggest mistake people make in buying intergrated amp is to buy the miniturised version of seperates,the classic example at the moment is the new Pass lab intergrated.It is nothing more[just like most other intergrated amp] a single chasis version of their seperates...
You should look for brands that makes Intergrated amp for a living,and believe me Neodio not only look interesting,it is [like Lavardin]unique..
I have also listen to all of the Int amp in your list and the Vitus and Krell are definitely in the top 2[depending on your taste,they are as different as Obama and McCain]
To these ears of mine KRELL FBI is the best sounding krell products
I use many SET amps the better ones a wavac. The FBI sounded great on my SEAS bookshelfs and my 3 way front horn but the SETs all have better musical connection make me listen longer and with more interest than any SS Ive heard. But the FBI still is amazing for SS I could live with it. Since I design loudspeakers I tried a few diferant KCS designs on SET and the FBI.
Like David12, I'm also very impressed with the Viva Solista. My friend has his paired with 86bd efficient speakers in a decent size room, but his listening is pretty much limited to small ensemble jazz and classical. With speakers rated in the mid 90dbs or better, I suspect the Solista would play any music with world class results.
TRL ST-225 is the best I have owned. No remote however. It absolutely opened up my music collection like no other high end piece of gear I have ever heard. An utter and complete step beyond anything I have heard regardless of price.
I cannot imagine a better sounding set-up. If so, I want it yesterday!
I think I'm in love with the VAC Phi Beta. It is quite the stunning piece.
And that was before I saw the favorable comparisons with Halle Berry over at sixmoons.
I've heard other VAC amps recently and was similarly impressed.
Can somebody tell me how well the Phi Beta might fare driving a pair of Ohm Walsh 5s? These present a somewhat challenging load and love to suck amps and power from SS amps normally.
I notice the PB is rated at same power output into 2, 4 and 8 ohms, which sounds promising. Could damping factor be an issue?
The TRL ST-225 is only available direct through Tube Research Labs. You can inquire about them by contacting Paul Weitzel directly.
There is an Audiogon review on the integrated. I happen to own the amp only version the D-225, which is what Ecruz just bought, along with the matching battery powered Pre-1.5 (the integrated has a passive preamp section from what I recall).
These amps are excellent for the money. If you can hear one in advance you might just be tempted to place an immediate order. If you contact TRL they may be able to refer you to someone in your area that has one.
"I tried different amps with VTL, no change. Used Transporter direct to Spectron, that lowered the noised a lot. Still Id want just two boxes, one amp and one source=>1 IC, 2PCs and SC i.e. minimum cables."
Yes, there's a lot to be said for a two-box system, particularly with Class D. With my Rowland Continuum 500, the incredibly sturdy chassis, short point to point wiring, physical isolation of components and, most importantly perhaps, Power Factor Correction (presenting an even load to the main and converting AC to 380V DC) leads to an ultra-quiet system.
Class does introduce EMI/RFI into your environment. If you've got a digital source, like a CDP, that introduces more and your general envirnonment may or may not be loaded with RFI. These factors make balanced mode, chassis design and circuit design critical to quiet operation. An integrated designed with all these factors in consideration gives you an elegant and, in the case of the C-500, a powerful, musical solution.
Based on your speakers, and my prior experience with Pass equipment, and the type of sound you are looking for, I think there new Pass integrated would proabably very worthwhile auditioning.
Fafafion: Neodio 150 looks interesting but no one seems to cary it but France? Ecruz: The TRL ST225 also seems to be impossible to find? Coffeey: 6moons seems to like Coda Teddy_bear: I never read UHF but I saw Ultraaudio still had Vitus as ref. I think the Kondo seems nice as well but bit expensive compared to the others. Guido: I tried different amps with VTL, no change. Used Transporter direct to Spectron, that lowered the noised a lot. Still Id want just two boxes, one amp and one source=>1 IC, 2PCs and SC i.e. minimum cables.
So can someone comment on the Gryphon Gamut Vitus and Rowland?
Perrew, have you tried to use a different linestage with the Spectron, or a different amp on the VTL TL7.5? By the way, as the Rowland Continuum 500 converts the AC to 385V direct current and buffers it through capacitors before feeding the result to the power supply, it should also address most any residual AC noise problems you may be experiencing. G.
There is DartZeel integrated on it's way, also improved VAC PHI beta is comming. Regarding Vitus, UHF mag reviewer's new reference is Pass X600.5. But for the lot of money there is Kondo's Ongaku integrated amp (it's my dream amp, no matter what many of you think).
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