Thank you atmashpere!
balanced vs. unbalanced sound quality
hi all i just got a theta dreadnaught amp and i currently have it hooked up through the unbalanced inputs.
i dont know very much about this topic, so i was wondering if i got balanced cables, would the sound quality improve? i will be using all 1 meter cables.
i know that higher end cables will sound better, but lets just say that the balanced cables would be of the same quality as the unbalanced.
thanks all,
cheers
i dont know very much about this topic, so i was wondering if i got balanced cables, would the sound quality improve? i will be using all 1 meter cables.
i know that higher end cables will sound better, but lets just say that the balanced cables would be of the same quality as the unbalanced.
thanks all,
cheers
47 responses Add your response
I do however have a stronger and tighter bass, actually the whole sound is now very uncolored, I have been told if I go to a pre that has balanced out to the amps balanced I will get some of my volume back because the adapters mute the signal in some way?The reason this is happening is because the Rotel employs two sets of inputs that are independent of each other. The balanced input converts its output to single-ended; that signal is then applied to the single-ended input. The balanced input needs two inputs- non-inverted and inverted; if it only gets one (which is what happens when you use an adapter) then the gain is reduced by 6db which is pretty audible. A balanced preamp would solve this. |
I know this is an old thread but it seems like it was made for my questions. I use a Rotel rb991 and an older pioneer elite vsx45tx as my pre on a two channel setup. When I use rca connections I get substantial hum, my avr does not have balanced outs so to get rid of all the noise from the RCA’s I purchased an rca to xlr adapters and that took care of the hum but my volume decreased by half. I do however have a stronger and tighter bass, actually the whole sound is now very uncolored, I have been told if I go to a pre that has balanced out to the amps balanced I will get some of my volume back because the adapters mute the signal in some way? Where I was listening at a pretty loud -30db is now at reference to come close to the old unbalanced connection. Im a musician and I compare the difference in sound from unbalanced to balanced like playing my guitar through a high gain amp head without any processor, it’s dry and precise, the unbalanced sounds louder but like I added some delay and reverb, a very manufactured sound. You guys seem very educated in all this and I’ve enjoyed reading what has been discussed so far,just trying to further my understanding by picking your brains. |
My comment about Keith Johnson’s statement wasn’t intended to endorse it, but rather to clarify it (correctly, I hope). I imagine there are as many ways to build a balanced circuit as there are design engineers. EAR-Yoshino’s Tim de Paravicini chooses to provide balanced outputs via transformers, his single-ended and balanced outputs sharing the exact same circuit. While Ralph Karsten has the engineering chops to create very simple, fully-differential balanced circuits in his Atma-Sphere products, other engineers (the ones to whom Johnson may have been referring) have resorted to a doubling of path length and parts count. |
I'm guessing Johnson was referring to the signal path length within a balanced circuit, not within a balanced cable.Often the signal path within a balanced circuit is simpler. At least that is the case in our stuff. For example, in our preamps there are only 2 stages of gain in the phono section and only 1 in the line stage. From LOMC to the ability to drive headphones. Rather than repeat myself though, here's an article that might be helpful regarding balanced operation:http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/balanced.php |
I didn't personally hear Prof. J make that statement. I was told by Terry at Overture what the Prof. told him. I was buying all new cabling at the time. When I asked about balanced cables is when he told me about the Prof. point of view. I have always used balanced cables till I got the Spectral system. Good listening too you. Joenies |
Professor Keith Johnson has said that the signal travels twice as far in a balanced cable and they present there own set of problems.That's pretty funny! If he really said this it suggests he doesn't know what he's talking about!!! Look at a single ended cable- the signal travels in the center conductor, and the shield is the return path. In a balanced cable, the signal travels in a twisted pair, and the shield is ignored (not used for a return path). The distances are identical. |
I think it depends on your system. I have a Spectral system and it was highly recommended that I use single ended. Professor Keith Johnson has said that the signal travels twice as far in a balanced cable and they present there own set of problems. Prior to my Spectral system I used balance cables. I do have a set of MIT balanced cables that I have never hooked up to the Spectral system. I will try to hook them up this weekend. I will report back after I have them hooked up. I do use balanced cables from my JC3 to preamp and will try both types of cables when I hookup my Aesthetix IO. Keep listening joenies |
I find the quality of interconnect wire to make more of a difference than the connection on the end. Just because a low quality cable has a XLR connectors doesn't make it sound better than a high quality cable with RCA connectors, especially for short runs. That being said, since my present system is fully balanced I do use XLR balanced interconnects. I also prefer the click connection of the XLR over even a locking RCA connection. |
Units that have XLR output/input connectors (even if the internal circuitry is not "balanced" (2 identical audio circuits for the + and - leads)) take advantage of utilizing separate ground paths for each signal. Common ground paths are a huge factor in electronic noise. All currents flowing thru traces or wires drop a voltage in proportion to the current flowing thru it. Keeping the ground or returns paths as separate as possible reduces the algebraic addition of all noise created by current flow. XLR wiring keeps left and right returns off the noisy ground path. Units with XLR connectors make an effort internally to accomplish that. Again, even if it is not a pure balanced circuit internally. |
I'm currently looking for a cdp that will blend well with my krell kav-300i and vanderteen 2c's. I recently picked up an NAD S500 cd player based on positive reviews and described sound quality. It sounded better with the krell versus other players I have tried (i.e. Rega Apollo). Both the krell and S500 have XLR outputs, so I decided to give it a try. Wow, the difference to my ears was rather substantial. Yes, there was a noticeable increase in volume, but more importantly, there was a more neutral sound to the music. It was much more even sounding, and was exactly what I was looking for. I kept the S500 connected in RCA as well and kept going back and forth, adjusting for volume each time. There was no comparison in this particular setup. The XLR connection was much better and provided a more even presentation of the music. My question to all this is: How is this possible? |
So much bad information concerning balanced audio and the advantages. Balanced audio is not 2 signals, one 180 degrees inverted to eliminate common mode noise. That technology is used for digital transmission to null out any interference caused by environment or more importantly, other digital signals in the same cable bundle. Balanced audio utilizes 2 identical signal path circuits, one for each "leg" of your audio signal. The foremost advantage is that there is no congested ground path for all signals, audio and power supply to distort the audio signal. All currents through a ground path drop voltage due to small resistance.....noise! Picture a toy slinky...both hands moving for balanced audio...Picture the same slinky attached to a table top on one end and only one hand moving for unbalanced audio....I'm not saying the difference is "huge"...but it has nothing to do with differencial noise elimination. |
Egrady, You are right, the true is either type of cable may be the better solution depending on the system`s make up. In certain configurations the RCA cables will be equal or better in sound quality. Audiofeil was right in saying it really does depends on the'individual' system(components involved and circumstances).For limo`s particular case the balance was the superior choice.There is no universal right or wrong here. Regards, |
My experience is this. If your system is fully balanced from source to speaker terminal, as is mine, you'll probably get better sound using balanced interconnects. I tried some inexpensive XLR interconnects on a lark, just to hear what balanced might sound like. The improvement over my expensive single ended interconnects was immediate and material. It is system dependent. But in a system where all the components are fully balanced, balanced is the way to go. |
Hey Milpai! I actually just bought a cheap pair from, ahem, best buy, and i did get more bass, lower noise floor and no hum! I'll be ordering the cables you suggested once funds are available. On a side note, I was talking to a guy from gik yesterday and he suggested I move my speakers back a foot or two and move pull my listening chair 3 to 4 feet from the back wall... Anyhow, when I feel like moving them, I may do so and see what happens. |
just because you apparently don't know enough to offer anything more more than content-free buzzwords and pabulum is no reason for you to become insulting just because i am querying you to find out whether you actually know what you are talking about. i mean, if you don't know what you're talking about, then don't comment. your repeated assertions of "i have experience" that you seem to offer in response to any questioning is just not very persuasive. |
It has been my experience that if a component is designed properly balanced, it will yield better performance...lower noise floor, etc. There are some components that have XLR outputs and claimed balanced operation, but they are "posers" and are really not balanced circuits....therefore, no increase in performance is obtained. |
Charles1dad ... most things audio have exceptions . I guess in stead of saying my vote was for balanced , I should have said my personal experience and preference was for balanced . I have had no less than 4 solid state power amps , 4 solid state preamps , 1 tube preamp , and 2 C.D. players in my system in the last 12 years or so , and have found fairly uniform results with cabling this way . I'm wondering if your preference is based more on tubes ? Ether way happy listening . |
Jdub39, I had the same question on the same amp I own - Halo A21. The Parasound brochure does indicate using a XLR input for the best possible sound. But when I asked this same question to Parasound they mentioned that it did not matter. A search on the internet also mentions that use of XLR input on this amp takes it to an altogether new level. I will be interested in experimenting with the XLR inputs when I get my system out of hibernation. |
Hi Sebrof, yes the adjustment for the 6db of gain was adjusted for with a trusty Rat shack calibrator. One of the biggest things I noticed was sound stage height and a more enveloping sound, excellent separation between instruments, more of a carved out center image with no loss of already great ambience retrival, and a harmonic bloom I didn't think was possible at this level. And to top it off, an over all cohesiveness to the music. After carefull listening, it didn't even sound like the same amp! (Halo A21)), after many RCA cables they all got me to about 75% of the potental of the amp. Balanced revealed the 25% RCA wont IMHO. Even my Anthem AVM 20 sounds more refinded. For me the urge to upgrade to a dedicated 2 channel preamp has been put to rest. Mabe a new dac?. |
to a certain extent it is almost pointless to ask other people what might sound good to you. while the quality of sound of balanced vs. unbalanced inputs is dependent upon the quality of the components as pointed out in another reply, from my perspective, you tend to get better sound from xlr inputs. it is true that you get a higher signal level from xlr output, but components of which i am aware tend to attenuate the xlr input signal to compensate. however, the higher signal also results in a better signal to noise ratio, so the signal might sound a bit cleaner. that said, don't expect the difference between balanced and unbalanced inputs to be "night and day". |
Jdub39 - I don't have a lot of experience with balanced vs. unbalanced, but I did have an amp that used both. When I first tried balanced it sounded much better, but then I realized that the balanced connections have more gain, i.e.: The music was a little louder. I believe much (maybe not all) of the "Balanced is better" is due to the increased gain. So, did you level match? |
This debate comes along often. It really depends on the components involved as there are numerous varibles. For short cable runs there`s no clear winner(very long runs favor balance cables).Some of the very best cost no object components are single end design per builder preference. Try both and see what you like best. |
It depends on which preamp you are using. Does your preamp have XLR outputs? Or are you trying to use a RCA-XLR adaptor with a balanced cable? One thing I would like to make you aware of. If by "higher end" you mean higher price, it doesn't automatically translate into better sound, it only means higher price. |
QUOTE, "Reduce NOISE, and NOT INCUR significant sginal loss, due to EXREME cable lengths." THERE you have it! That's exactly why balanced cables were developed, for professional use. The environment DICTATED it. Many power lines/transformers(RFI/EMI) and long cable runs inhabiting the same venue. If you don'r have a lot of cables in the immediate vicinity of your interconnects, you won't have a lot of noise. 1 Meter IS NOT an extreme cable length. If your preamp and amp are not both differentially balanced; your presentation may actually suffer. The only way to know for certain, is to experiment. |
My personal preference is balanced over rca. I've had amps that had hum with rca connections and once I switched to XLR, the hum was gone. People will tell you that there is no difference, but if you read the manuals of high end amps you will find instructions like the following: The KSA has balanced and single-ended inputs . The balanced inputs use 3- pin XLRconnectors and the single-ended inputs use standard RCAconnec- tors. Werecommenduse of balanced interconnects sonically, and electrically because of their ability to reduce noise and not incur significant sonic loss due to extreme cable lengths. There you have it. Good luck. |
