Balanced versus single ended

I am runnning Triode Audio TRX-M845 mono blocks into Acoustic Zen speakers.  The exact set up that has won several "best in show" sound room awards.  So I asked Triode what cable format they use.  They answered they use RCA cables in every situation.  Who am I to argue with them? 

True balanced-need to be input to output

on all gear or it’s not truly balanced ,just converted to rca or 2 wire?

 

@fsonicsmith

“As an owner of an ARC Ref 6 and Ref 80S and Ref 150 SE I know that Warren Gehl and Co strongly suggest running balanced with the very best IC’s you can afford. I conducted listening tests with a wide assortment of balanced IC’s at all price ranges and heard huge differences. I settled on Cardas Clear Beyond. ‘

I just saw this. Very nice system. As an illustration to the forum… I am going to repeat your text with my experiences. This is in no way saying you are incorrect. But I am pointing out no matter how similar your systems the answer can be different.

My experience: As an owner of an ARC Ref 6SE and Ref 160s and Ref 160m monos, I know that Warren Gehl and Co strongly suggest running balanced with the very best IC’s you can afford. I conducted listening tests with a wide assortment of balanced and unbalanced IC’s at all price ranges and heard huge differences. I settled on Transparent Ultra after extensive testing of Cardas Beyond. I found no significant audible difference between single ended and XLR.

There are a lot of similarities in our systems and yet to me in my system Transparent was far superior to Cardas (I tried all kinds). But we definitely agree that there are very large differences in the sound quality among interconnects.

I'd not considered this point before, but given that the signal is duplicated then reversed then transported then recombined, doesn't that mean that any coloration or other effect by the interconnect is simply negated?  So, you don't really need fancy balanced cables?

 This is why XLR is especially good for long runs. The additional line for the single path is also responsible for the 6 dB gain

If your setup supports the balanced standard there will be no 6dB gain difference between balanced and single-ended.

I'd not considered this point before, but given that the signal is duplicated then reversed then transported then recombined, doesn't that mean that any coloration or other effect by the interconnect is simply negated?  So, you don't really need fancy balanced cables?

@jji666 

If your equipment supports the balanced standard then you don't need fancy cables. If it does not support the standard, you'll find yourself auditioning cables to find the one that sounds 'right'. Personally I find this a bit silly, since the balanced line system is a technology that eliminates cable colorations.

@atmasphere ,

I have tried, like you, to educate those on this forum for years. In fact, it is your knowledge that has guided me.

 

 

So, l want to give one last clarification on the RCA/XLR conundrum:

If your equipment supports the AES Standard, then whatever cable you use should not impart a significant sound quality difference.

If you use equipment not supporting the AES Standard or use RCA (unbalanced) cables, then you may/may not find significant differences in sound quality in using different cables.

FWIW, my dealer suggested some AQ Balanced wire to be an upgrade to the wire Atmasphere sold me for his equipment (25 ft length). Long story short, I noticed no significant difference in sound quality between the two cables. They both sounded good, but given the price difference, I would buy Ralph’s cables.

Audiogon members come here to find information. Hopefully, based on experience and fact.

Though I haven’t been here very long, I have found the advice/information Atmasphere has given to be sound and based in fact. It is the reason I ended up buying his equipment. (And, given his ability to produce quality equipment, I probably will be getting his Class D monoblocks in the near future.

Bob

They both sounded good, but given the price difference, I would buy Ralph’s cables.

To be clear, 'our' cables are simply Mogami Neglex with Neutrik connectors.

To be clear

@atmasphere ^That^ is almost a pun… ;)

@holmz To be clear, black is the only color you get...

Any color you want as long as it is black. - Henry Ford

Oh, you boys! (-sounding like mother Bailey in 'It's a Wonderful Life')

B

@atmasphere 

If audio components are "truly"  built to the AES balanced standard then there is minimal to no sonic differences heard with various balanced cable regardless of their cost or claims. 

With those who report here they have fully balanced audio systems input to output and yet they hear very distinct differences among balanced cable brand/models. Are there alternative or proprietary balanced audio circuits by these manufacturers or are they not true balanced circuits? 

Is this due to balance audio via use of  transformers or deviating  fully differential circuit approaches?

Charles

Why True Balance Operation?

Here is a good article on the subject. See below

Mike

http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resource-why-balanced.html

@holmz To be clear, black is the only color you get...

I meant, “to be clear”… as a lack of noise.

(they make the mogami in brown, but black may be used to describe quietness.)

If audio components are "truly"  built to the AES balanced standard then there is minimal to no sonic differences heard with various balanced cable regardless of their cost or claims. 

My components say they are balanced, but how does one really know if they are built to the AES standard? I have never seen this mentioned in the specs.

 

@zlone,

My components say they are balanced, but how does one really know if they are built to the AES standard? I have never seen this mentioned in the specs.

Call the manufacturer and ask if their audio components are AES48 compliant.

 

Mike

With those who report here they have fully balanced audio systems input to output and yet they hear very distinct differences among balanced cable brand/models. Are there alternative or proprietary balanced audio circuits by these manufacturers or are they not true balanced circuits? 

Is this due to balance audio via use of  transformers or deviating  fully differential circuit approaches?

@charles1dad You can have a fully differential balanced preamp that does not support the balanced standard. In tube preamps this is common because coupling caps are used at the output. That coupling cap is usually part of a cathode follower circuit, and a cathode follower produces its output with respect to ground.

So that means you have two cathode followers, one for each phase, each referencing ground. The nice thing about this is that one of those can be employed as a single-ended output, so seeing RCAs and XLRs on such preamps is common. When two independent outputs are used like this, Common Mode Rejection Ratio is reduced in the system- it can never be truly balanced.

The balanced standard ignores ground, IOW the output of a device that supports AES48 does not generate either phase with respect to ground. Usually the way to do this is with an output transformer, whose secondary is connected to pin 2 and pin 3 of the XLR output and nothing else.

We patented an method of getting doing this without an output transformer, because as you know, we're the OTL guys. IOW you can support AES48 by using a Circlotron output, which is at the core of both of our patents in this area. It is possible to use semiconductors to support the standard.

One clue that the standard is supported is the 6dB issue- if the volume increases 6dB when running the preamp balanced as opposed to single-ended, that means it does not support the standard. The reason why is explained in the first paragraph above.

I think there is the idea that a transformer is a Bad Idea and so most high end audio manufacturers avoid using them (Backert Labs is an example of one that uses a transformer so they gear supports the standard). So as you point out, you get really variable results and people hear all kinds of differences in cables that simply shouldn't be there.

If the manufacturer supports AES48 they should say that- if not, ask them. If they don't know the answer, then they probably do not 😉

@atmasphere 

Thank you for the thorough explanation as this clears up quite a lot in  regard to those who hear balance cable differences and acquire additional 6 db of gain compared to RCA  single ended. .Makes plenty of sense.

Charles

@charles1dad ,

As I posted at the beginning, I bought the Mogami XLR cable from Ralph when I bought his amp and preamp. I then bought some AQ cable on the recommendation of my dealer ( which cost more, by the way).

To be honest, I could hear no significant difference in sound reproduction. My only recourse is to try a higher level of AQ cable, but that costs way more and I don't want to spend that much on an experiment (-though it would be good to know and finally dispel the notion that XLR cables DO sound different in equipment supporting the AES48 standard).

Bob

I remember reading a post a couple years ago, about a guy that had atmasphere equipment and he said he could hear a difference in cables.

I remember reading a post a couple years ago, about a guy that had atmasphere equipment and he said he could hear a difference in cables.

People also hear voices that are not there.
But can they tell whether a cable is there without looking?

 

To be honest, I could hear no significant difference in sound reproduction. My only recourse is to try a higher level of AQ cable, but that costs way more and I don't want to spend that much on an experiment (-though it would be good to know and finally dispel the notion that XLR cables DO sound different in equipment supporting the AES48 standard).

IMO It certainly seems like a better approach to put the funds into Ralph’s components (and the others that follow the spec.).

… But then I am not much into cable lore. Usually using the same Mogami stuff in RCA.

@zlone,

The wiring diagram below shows the correct way to make balanced cables compliant to the AES48 standard.

 

The Absolute Best Right Way To Do It

The method specified by AES48 is to use balanced lines and tie the cable shield to the metal chassis (right where it enters the chassis) at both ends of the cable.

 

https://usermanual.wiki/Document/ShieldWiringOfBalancedInputsAndOutputsAes482005F.2144015621.pdf

@ditusa 

The wiring diagram below shows the correct way to make balanced cables compliant to the AES48 standard.

Interesting. Are you saying that both amplifiers and cables that are billed as balanced might not be to standard? 

@zlone,

Interesting. Are you saying that both amplifiers and cables that are billed as balanced might not be to standard?

Yes, that has been my experience. See @atmasphere wrote on 05-26-2022 at 12:04pm a good post thoroughly explaining that. Also see related article below: Rane Sound System Interconnection

Mike

https://www.ranecommercial.com/kb_article.php?article=2107

Interesting. Are you saying that both amplifiers and cables that are billed as balanced might not be to standard? 

Absolutely yes for real. I've been harping on this fact for years. I've not sorted out if high end audio manufacturers choose to ignore this issue or are simply ignorant. But its common in 'high end audio' for some reason.

I thought this newsletter below was perfect for this post but no mention of the AES48 standard.

Mike

The Audio Classics’ Newsletter

The Audio Classics’ Newsletter

Greetings! Balanced vs Unbalanced Cables

Introduction So what’s the big deal about balanced lines? The answer is that they allow audio signals, even very low level audio signals, to be sent hundreds of feet with little risk of electrical interference.   Specific Differences Unbalanced Lines   An unbalanced line is made up of two conductors: a single insulated center conductor surrounded by a braided or foil shield.

The shield is connected to earth ground. The signal is carried by both the shield and center conductor. The theory is that extraneous signals will be routed by the shield to earth ground so they will not reach the center conductor to interfere with the signal. Unfortunately this theory does not always hold up. With unbalanced lines longer than a few feet, the exposure to interference becomes more likely and the result is that hum or other noise can get into the center conductor and then be passed along to the rest of the system.   RCA connectors are used on unbalanced lines.

Since the shield is at one potential (ground) and the center conductor is at a different potential, the line is said to be ’unbalanced’.   As a rule of thumb, use unbalanced lines only in short lengths, up to 15 feet or so.   Balanced Lines A balanced line is made up of three conductors: two separate conductors in the center surrounded by a braided or foil shield.

As in unbalanced lines, the shield is connected to earth ground. In balanced lines, the signal is carried by the two conductors inside the shield (but not the shield itself). The theory is a little more complicated. As above, the purpose of the shield is to route extraneous signals to ground so they won’t interfere with the signal circuit. But there’s more. Since the two conductors are part of the same circuit, they carry the same voltage and current but in opposite directions. Any interference that does permeate the shield will affect both center conductors in the same way. Since the current in the two conductors is in opposite directions, the interference is cancelled out. The signal is not affected.   XLR connectors are used on balanced lines.

Since the two conductors within the shield are at the same potential in relation to earth ground, the line is said to be ’balanced’.   As a rule of thumb, use balanced lines for any length and whenever you can, but particularly for lines longer than 15 feet or so in length.   — by Tom DeForest

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I thought this newsletter below was perfect for this post but no mention of the AES48 standard.

Mike

…

@ditusa
does cable create the conformance to the AES48 standard?
or…
the electronics that it plugs into?

@holmz,

does cable create the conformance to the AES48 standard?
or…
the electronics that it plugs into?

They both do! 😁

Mike

 

@ditusa

 

Ok. If I am running interconnects for several hundred feet… it is important. But this is a condition that is vertically nonexistent in high end audio.

 

The reality is that the quality of the interconnect usually trumps single ended versus balanced for the vast majority of actual systems. I have never heard a system where the single ended / balanced was a significant factor. The additional cost for balanced typically is significant. So, it really remains best a dilemma for folks with very high end systems.  If you have to be budget conscious. Then get single ended… don’t think twice. If you are trying to assault the highest achievable… then try both.

My average component cost is $20K and my manufacturer recommends balanced… I couldn’t detect the difference… so it is small. I suggest worrying about the big stuff… this ain’t it for most folks.

They both do! 😁

There is not a lot of reason to trade up in cable with the electronics that conform.

It is possible to make a cable that does not conform, or that flips the phase, but realistically the cables should all conform.

So it looks like a sales pitch for cables… for electronics which are masquerading as conforming, but do not conform.

Starting with better electronics seems like a better value than “spicing to flavour” with cables.

Starting with better electronics seems like a better value than “spicing to flavour” with cables.

I agree!

 

Just for the purposes of discussion, what if you used an AES48 compliant cable between compliant devices, but used such poor quality wire that both signal wires  in a cable negatively affected the sound in an equivalent fashion. 

But this is a condition that is vertically nonexistent in high end audio.

 

The reality is that the quality of the interconnect usually trumps single ended versus balanced for the vast majority of actual systems. I have never heard a system where the single ended / balanced was a significant factor.

Just for the purposes of discussion, what if you used an AES48 compliant cable between compliant devices, but used such poor quality wire that both signal wires  in a cable negatively affected the sound in an equivalent fashion. 

@zlone @ghdprentice One of the benefits of balanced line operation is that the 'sound' of the interconnect is vastly reduced or eliminated (in particular if the low impedance aspect of balanced operation is supported). This benefit accrues even if the connection is only 6 inches long. If you've ever auditioned RCA cables and heard a difference, this is the 'sound' to which I refer. Imagine a technology where that problem of having to choose cables to match the system is eliminated. I've used cables that were 50 years old, with rubber insulation and tin-plated wire and no ill effects at all.

In the home the benefit is being able to place your amps next to the speakers, thus minimizing the coloration of the speaker cables because you can run a shorter speaker cable, plus never having angst about upgrading your interconnects. And of course phono cartridges are balanced sources- if there's anywhere in a system where the cable has to get it right, its the cable between the tonearm and preamp- if you can run that balanced you can get closer to real neutrality and the cable need not be expensive.

People often say how balanced is more expensive; in high end audio it isn't. Its often cheaper since you're not paying for expensive interconnects that become white elephants over time.

Then there is the argument that the AES48, as an application is a sonic limitation in itself, and is part and parcel and core to the idea that all AES48 applications have little noted differences in their sonic signatures.

I’m not stating that this, which I have written...is the correct view, but that it is among the possible outcomes in the grand scheme of things.

The idea that the signal intelligence is in the fields and if the field guides/’partners in crime’ be compromised in identical fashion (via strict ubiquity in AES48 design and application), then...well...

RCA’s sound just fine. 
 

used both, rca is great.

My Livingroom Benchmark gear is AES48 compliant. I very happy running relatively low cost Benchmark XLR interconnect between preamp and amp (both Benchmark). I have tried more expensive XLR's. On my sources that are from varies manufacturers I found that the interconnects matter. So there I use Audience Au24 SE and various WyWire.

On my office system, I have a KRELL amp and CODA preamp which I am not sure is AES48 compliant. I am running the 15+ foot Benchmark XLR between the 2. I am afraid to try any expensive XLR between them. My ignorance will save me money.

 

Then there is the argument that the AES48, as an application is a sonic limitation in itself, and is part and parcel and core to the idea that all AES48 applications have little noted differences in their sonic signatures.

You might try it. But keep in mind that if such were really the case the Golden Age of HiFi in the 1950s would never have happened. Basically what you seem to be suggesting is that the cables are too colored to be able to hear a difference, which is oxymoronic. Coloration is exactly what the balanced line system solves.