I've reviewed the TAS Factory Tour and the 802 D3 details and am impressed with all improvements; and the common sense used. I also find the new styling very intelligent related to dispersion. Comments?
If I may address rtilden's question, My experience is that room acoustics are the biggest factor that affects details of soundstage and imaging like how much is in front or back of speakers.
Equipment matters as well but most good quality equipment set up well should be capable of excellent soundstage and imaging. But you have to take the dispersion characteristics of the speakers and room acoustics into account.
Rooms that more acoustically lively to the front of the speakers and especially behind the listener will tend to shift the soundstage more forward all things considered.
So I think the answer lies mostly with room acoustics. Also speakers that deliver most or all their energy forwards rather than to the rear will also most likely tend to deliver a more forward sounding SS.
Thanks, Mapman. Your reply is very good, and my experience is similar. I have heard both different speakers and different speaker cables make a difference in soundstage presentation, but I think your response is what I was looking for.
I recall Bo1972 was previously using and proclaiming the excellence of Onkyo and Integra preamp processors as being the holy grail in achieving his '3D' sound objectives.
Oh great, yachts in 3D. Of course that will give the best end result. Many shoot outs will be done, and of course, you will win (or so you will endlessly say).
Hey Bo: I seem to recall you are located in the Netherlands. I live in Florida and travel for fun to Europe yearly. It would not be difficult for my wife and me to visit your haven of sound in one of our upcoming trips. Are you in a position to offer your address and phone number for a visit? I reckon any number of others would be keenly interested in experiencing your sonic achievements. Will you be in a position soon to take visitors?
Bo1972. Please,I don't wish to be rude,however you are sabotaging this thread with irrelevent "information?". Please stop or I will be obliged to advise the moderators and request they review your often off topic or self indulgent comments. From the sound of it, many others don't appreciate your comments either. I believe as a group we are likely in a position to have you blocked. Please act accordingly. Peter
This thread has become shameful. It was started as an invitation to discuss the improvements to the new B&W line, and to share comments about the aesthetics and how people feel about them. Bo has taken it completely off the rails, and it has devolved into a thread about his new business venture, his philosophies on audio reproduction, his feelings on the state of the audio industry, and his opinion (to which he is entitled, in all fairness) about how the new speakers aren't 3D enough.
It has been established that Bo dislikes the new D3 series, let's acknowledge that and move on. I myself recently got to hear the new series, and I posted a long writeup in another thread, and I'd like to see the thread get back on course.
(Is it just me, or does this happen too often here on AG? I'm a member of several other forums, Audiocircle, AVS, Hifiwigwam...I can't remember the last time a wigwam thread went off the rails like this. Just seems like this happens a lot here on AG. I sense a lot of hostility and exasperation here, which may mean that others are tired of this happening too)
You don't like the comments, audio is about facts. Not about the things you would like to hear.
Then why is everything you say about audio equipment your own subjective opinion Bo? Please site the "facts" that every brand, except for the ones you sell, are 2D and inferior. Please tell us factually why the crossovers B&W uses are inferior to the ones used by Monitor Audio? Listening doesn't count as that is "subjective".
Stage depth and width are parts you judge audio for. In the world of highend they are important.
OK. while every sentence you wrote sounds totally subjective to me, I will only ask a question about your opening one Bo that I quoted above.
How do you judge the stage depth and width? I agree that they are important. Since earlier you said audio is about FACTS and not what one would like to hear, how do you determine if a speaker has stage depth and width?
We have the freedom to choose what we want. For example: we auditioned many streamers and dacs this years before we decided to become dealer of Lumin. At this moment we think lumin gives us the best quality for the money.
When new products in the future are better, we will change to another brand. They way we work it totaaly differrent and new in the world of audio.
For us this is the best way of protecting our clients and giving them the best sound possible.
We always say: all our competitors have the same chances as we have. The best will win. Our goal is to become the best company in sound&vision in the world. We will never do it for less. So we focus and test on an on.....
I always knew that I could understand audio a lot more easy than all my colleagues. When you train your brains thousands of times the same way for a long time you see and understand patterns in sound.
When I listen to a set and we chance one part I know exactly the difference between the first audition and the second. This is in a few tenths of a second.
What I said it is a way of repeating.
This weekend we were auditioning the Magnepan 3.7 for a client of mine. They used Pass labs XP-10 and the XA-60.5 monos and a Krell SACD player monos.
Before we listend I said I can discribe exactly how the stage and soudn will be.
- instruments and voices are a little to big ( they were) - Very limited depth and width, based on the crossovers and properteis of the speakers. - With dynamic speakers the energy of a bass drumm is in the middle of the speakers. With the Magnepan it is difficult to be point out ( it was) - black level is very limited. The separation of the voices and instruments is very limited. This is based on the poperties of the Pass Labs combo. I ownend and auditioned. Pass Labs is very limited in individual focus of instruments and voices. I have had many conversations about this with Desmond Harington who is the president and creator of Pass labs pre amps. - the articulation of voices is very limited as we would like, based on the tweeters of the 30.7.
I adviced him to bring in his Primare A33.2 power. Before we replaced the XA60.5 by the 33.2. I said; now we bring in different properties. Voices will become smaller and the individual focus will be a lot more apparent. Stage depth will be less compared to the XA60.5.
It all came out, this makes audio a lot more easy to predict. Beside this to adapt and control.
Is the 802 D3 is the finest speaker in B&W product line now. I don't follow this company's news a lot but want to buy a pair of 800D recently. Surprisingly not see 800D on their website. Does someone can confirm?
Bo You seemed to have contradicted yourself. I thought you really liked Pass Labs for 3D total sound but with the Maggie's in your post, you predicted they wouldn't be good?
When you listen to a set you listen to all parts. All parts togheter inluding the acoustics is what you hear.
The focus is on these parts togheter. Togheter they build the stage and sound you hear.
In the set togheter with the 30.7 it was a very limited endresult.
You need to understand the properties of each part in a set when you want to understand the sound and image you hear.
When I bought the B&W 802N in 1999 I noticed that the speaker was too low in height. In 2 weeks I understood the properties and limitations.
What I did was buying an 8cm thick granite plate in the shape of the speaker. I even put Nautilus 802 and the stripe of the log on the front side. I removed the balls and used dempers.
Now I got a better presentation of the heights. Instruments and voices became more apparent and I created more space around voices and instruments. The low freq. became more tight and I had more layers.
Audio is all about understanding limitations and properties. When you are aware of them you can create much better results.
At the time I played with the 802N and 800S I had many anti-B&W people at my house. Often they said I never auditioned B&W speakers this good.
You cannot solve all limitations. Stage depth is a part where other brands do a better job compared to B&W. I never understood why B&W is not able to bring this to a higher level.
When the stage depth and width of the 800D1 would be great I would have bought them. We don't want to be negative on a brand. We want to be realistic as possible for our clients.
The new D3 series did not convince sofar. But we will listen them again. I still can't find a lot of auditions of the D3 series.
The German magazines don't say anything because they get money for the reviews. This is also a part I hate in audio. I know how it works and what money does.
audio is about facts. Not about the things you would like to hear.
I always knew that I could understand audio a lot more easy than all my colleagues. When you train your brains thousands of times the same way for a long time you see and understand patterns in sound.
Thanks Bo. So in order to arrive at the "FACTS" of audio, all one has to do is listen and train their brains to look for patterns in sound. And you do this by extensive listening thousands of times like you did. And obviously your colleagues did not. Is this right?
I'd like to see a pic of one of your setups. Since this thread is about the new B&W 800 series, could you please show us "one" link to one of your setups with any B&W speakers from the 800 series - any generation will do. As you are in the business you must have many pics - correct ? thanks.
"Pass Labs is very limited in individual focus of instruments and voices. I have had many conversations about this with Desmond Harington who is the president and creator of Pass labs pre amps."
This is what I don't understand. I thought you said Pass Labs was a top choice for 3D Sound but you refer to Pass as very limited. Not sure if you are referring more to the Maggie's or if Pass preamps aren't very good or what.
In 1999 I already owned an expensive set. Many test I did at home. I did lent expensive cables all the time to test at home. I lend stuff we did not have in our shop. I was addicted to audio for a few years.
On my free monday I visited distributers so I could audition the things we didn't have. Colleagues did not spend so much money and time on audio than I did.
We are thinking about an audio Blog as well. I will do it in english as well. So you can see how we work and what we do. I have Sony professional video stuff and the best professional microphones as well. It will be in the beginning of 2016.
Pass labs can create a very deep and wide stage. This gives you the freedom and option to create a huge stage.
I ownned many Pass Labs power amps, monos and the XP-20. I still own Pass Labs these days.
They have the same properties how they build a stage. This is wide and deep, but it lacks a sharp individual focus of instruments and voices.
Pass Labs is exeptional in diversity in the middle freq. And can let you hear exactly the sound of an instrument as in real.
I have said it many times overhere. During acoustic classical live concerts I learned how small and direct voices and instruments are in proportion( here I learned how direct and extreme small voices and instruments are).
This was the main reason why I bought the 802N in 1999. I call it intimate sound. Each set I audition I use this part and I want it to be there.
In 2009 I bought a brand new set of Pass labs XA100.5 and a XP-20 pre amp. The individual focus of voices and instruments with an intimate image I created this with my Meridian 800Daxv4, Acapella pure silver interconnects and Purist Audio powercables. Because you need to add properties the Pass Labs combo does not own.
When you want an intimate stage with a Pass labs set. set You need to be aware of the properties of your source and cables. So I needed properties to make it more intimate and realistic.
When we are at shows often people use Pass Labs with MIT or Shunyata. So instruments and voices become too big in proportion And you loose the intimate image.
These choices are often made on political choices ( what I really hate) and often don't work. What they do is giving people a wrong idea about how music should be presented.
When I ask the people who give the demo if he knows how big the singers head is in real; they don't know. Often we hear to a demo with a voice of 3 metres. When you are aware that voices and instruments are very small, you would never have given this demo.
In my perspective B&W should have done more research on other materials. The material Monitor Audio uses for their drivers is lighter and faster in response. Beside this they use a different new way of connecting the drivers. This give them the freedom to move faster.
The other thing is that B&W need new people who can create more stage depth and width.
I can garantee that the new ribbon tweeter blows away the diamond tweeter on all parts. I would have developed a different tweeter and never a dome tweeter again.
I've read many of Bo1972s post and have concluded that he repeats the same thing over and over and at the same time finds ways to contradict himself. He talks about how great his components are, but concedes that he uses room correction to get the best sound. I've listed to Monitor Audio speakers and find them to forward/bright. I do agree with him regarding some Shunyata cables...when I tried Shunyata Cobra speaker cables the images were bigger than normal.
Have you found any preamp/amp/integrateds that give wide and deep soundstage WITH smaller images and focused sound with very black background?
Apparently Pass has some of the criteria met but not all. Btw, I owned Maggie 3.7 and loved the speed but agree with you on blackness, images and depth.
First you need to understand the properties. When you are aware of these, you can the best result out of them.
Monitor Audio in the Netherlands asked me 1,5 years ago can you take a look at our Monitor Audio dealers and what kind of amps they use.
Over 90% only sell 2 dimensional amps. This is how limited the knowledge is in audio.
I saw the pictures of the new B&W D3 series at the factory in England. B&W invite people who sell the new 800 series.
The demos were done with Rotel. Sorry, you must be a fool to demo 800 series with this level. Then you don't understand audio at all. I am not convinced that the best people in audio work at B&W at this moment!
Honestly, Bo Bo & friends should go in a corner,---- - - and enjoy themselves.......Actually; why not start their own thread? Have fun with other; childish ignorant self centered fools who probably toilet trained very late,if ever.
we test and audition many new ptoducts to find out which properties they own. Our only focus is on products which can create a deep and wide stage. All products which are 2 dimensional ( in audio over 95% is)we will never sell.
I said; when I need to go back to 2 Dimensional sound I stop with audio directly and I will sell cars!
This year we also did a lot of reseach in electricity ans smog. Mann you can create a much higher level when you use these tools to the max. These days we use our own wires ( and again by testing many) for electricity. We use fuses and we use Cylindric Fuse Cartridges as well.
We use different tools against smog ( computers, phones, data what goes through the air)
We use different professional lasers and different digital levelers. We use them for speaker placement and even for measuring the room.
I think our own developed measurement Statement Audio Pro can become a new tool to create a much higher level in sound from mid level till highend.
For us it is important that many people will benefit from it. The quality in stereo and multi channel will go to a new level. This level will make music and multi channel much more addictive and exciting.
I'm aiming for 6D sound in my room...it has to have width, height, depth, it has to warp time so I have two Saturdays every week, it has to further the laws of quantum mathematics and allow me to move through my house at the speed of light, and it has to mitigate earth's gravitational effect so that my scale says I only weigh 160 pounds. 3D sound is so 1996.
I'm now going to hijack the thread and post 300 times about 6D sound. Then I'll tell you about my new 6D Sound Generator. Which you'll all want to buy. I can't wait.
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