Bo, my reference is Boston Symphony Hall...one of the best sounding concert venues ever!! FYI, in real life tightly focused imaging does not exist. That said, MIT brings scale and authority to sound reproduction which you can not get enough of in a stereo system.
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Ringing tests: we all thought hey B&W are you F. deaf. You don’t need computers to find out that it has more distortion than some other materials. I think they made a big mistake, when you use materials who are extreemly dead it does not garantee you to get a better sound, or more natural sound. What were the remarks of listeners ( shop owners and clients) during listening to the D3 series? It lacks emotion, Sonus Faber had a great story about this. They wrote that a violin or cello uses it’s distortion in sound to create an emotional sound. In the past e auditioned many speakers who used materials who almost had no distortion. They souded rather dead. During listening of the 802D3 with the song: ’Thank you’ from Chris Jones. The energy of the acoustic guitar could not get free of the speaker. It sounded like a coloration of the speaker. The other thing we noticed was that we missed the diversity in the middle frequency. Both the 804D 3 and 802D3 were not able to give us a rich and diverse middle frequency. Another remark of shop owners of the D3 series was: you need a warm sounding amp to get an invloving sound out of the D3 series. |
Dear Dave, a friend of mine had a small concert room in his house with a Steinway wing. He gave small classical concerts for about 65 people. What amazed me was the intimate focus of a voice or an instrument. I thought this is what I want in my system. These days intimate focus has become an important part of my personal sound. I learned many people who owned MIT cables that voices and instruments are in real very direct and small in proportion. Beside this I want to make clear what this does to your emotion. That is why I have done a lot of research in creating a better blacklevel as well. Friday I had clients who visited me, they had to travel 3 hours tot come to me. He is fan on Phil Collins ( he will start soon writting again becaue his children wants to see him sing) and I played the song 'I don't care anymore' He had tears in his eyes. It is not only the energy, but the blacklevel and fysical apperance what makes it so impressive. This is what intimate sound does with our emotion. |
I did test Auidioquest Wel Signature powercabels this year. To be honest silver does not work well for amps, sources and pre amps . Powercables of copper work a lot better in the tests we did this year. Quality of silver is what makes it impressive compared to low quality silver what often does not work well. You reach a higher endresult with the best silver interconnect compared to copper. The benefit with the silver interconnects like the Audioquest Wel Signature cannot be created with the MIT Oracle. The higher level of details, superior fysical apparance, better differences in height and a sharper individual focus of instruments and voices is priceless. I work the other way around. I create sound by using different properties of each part of an audio set. This makes is very easy for me to have no harshness as an endresult. Using only copper will create a lower endresult. For a perfectionist this is a 100% no go. The focus is always on the best results possible. |
Here is some more information and pictures of the new Monitor Audio Platinum Series II. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.992370524152361.1073741834.909223975800350&type=3 |
I agree that silver has a place in balance but all silver IC's or spkr cables no! As for the intimate thing...that is heavily influenced by the environment and the material. An acoustically damped room will kill bloom and dynamics. Voice can sound tamped down and localized depending on venue, but it can also soar and bloom and resonate. A single saxophone can fill a large room with dynamics and resonant bloom. To kill the acoustic envelope so you can focus it down to an intimate lifeless husk is not my cup of tea. Live music has explosive dynamics and acoustic bloom and resonance that expands to fill a room...it is not politely contained. |
It is not the acoustics, a voice and even an instrument is extreemly small and direct. AQ cabels win in resolution and decay of each MIT cable with ease. You need to auditioned many live acoustic small shows to understand it. Then you understand what it means and that MIT lacks a realistic individual focus and has a low black level as well. Out level in resolution and deacy is so much bigger than when we audition any set at an audio shop or show. Because we can adapt much more different parts in a set. A realistic proportion of instruments and voices is a totally different part than resolution and decay. A voice or instrument get a realistic shape when yiu can create a deep and wide stage, but also a sharp and intimate focus of instruments and voices. You need a lot of air around voices. In this part the AQ silver interconnects blow away the low detail cables of MIT. It was very easy to listen the limitation of the MIT cables. For the loudspeakercables we had the same outcome. Audioquest owns more different properties compared to MIT who owns less properties. This makes the overall sound more complete when you use and bring in the AQ cables. |
We will have to agree that we disagree then....I'm assuming that you actually listen to live music and not just your audio setups, right? Even the smallest instruments are extremely dynamic and not tightly focused in a live setting. I understand what your trying to get at but it is unique to Hi Fi systems and not live music being played in a venue, unless that venue is closed in and acoustically damped. Remember, imaging itself is a stereo system affectation and has little application in a live music environment. |
Bo, reflected on our conversation and it reminded me of a similiar situation I ran into with a local audiophile. He had an extremely high end system with a 20K vinyl rig and Avalon Eidolons etc..., which I thought would be exceptional to experience. Bottom line is that he played music at an extremely low level, suffered severe humm issues and dynamic range limitations. Bottom line is that I am often amazed at how many audiophiles have extremely bizarre listening habits that exhibit traits contrary to live music being recreated. Attempts to controll the acoustic envelope and tighten a systems abillity to fully express the dynamic range and scale of the music is antithetical to Hi Fidelity! |
I sold Avalon for over 6 years of time and even sold some to my best friends. But.....Avalon is very poor in intimate focus. Why? Because instruments and voices do not get the real shape and physical appearance as in real. They can create a deep and wide stage, but within this stage the individual focus of instruments ans voices is not as sharp and small as in real. The biggest mistake is using MIT with Avalon. Why? Because this makes the stage even less intimate. When we did shootouts of MIT against AQ with Avalon speakers. The AQ were in each part superior. You need to understand the properties of MIT before you can adapt them in a system. |
Stealth low frequency is able to give voices and instruments their dynamics. In this part we are far ahead of all our competitors. Because it let you feel the energy/dynamics were it is at the recording. The same according to details and space, we can create much more resolution and the air in a space compared to all our competitors. In Munic at the highend show we found out how much further we are in sound qualtity. It was for us if we were back in time. They all still live in the past, and we live in the future! |
We were looking at their new amp, and a woman asked us what we think about the amp. I made the remark that I miss a colour and this is dark grey. She started to smile and said this is the colour we were discussing about. After this she asked us what we do in life. I told her about our way of consulting. And that we developed our own way of roomcorrection. She was zo amazed by our story and I showed her pictures of how we work. She went to Dan who was speaking with other peolple. She said; you have to come here to listen to this story. I talked 2 times that day and he gave me his card. The old way of audio without our way of roomcorrection is far inferior. This also counts for highend. What I said earlier: we are far ahead in each part you judge sound for. Total Sound are 9 different parts you judge sound for. This means that we focus on each part. We want to improve each part all the time. This is a much more effective way of using audio. The rest is only able to connect a source, amp, speakers and cables. Then they audition the endresult. This is a very ineffective way of using audio. We collect properties and we build our 3 dimensional physical sound by these properties. This way we can outperform every competitor. I am sorry, but this is the truth! |
Bo, I would like a list or a link to the equipment you utilize and the brands you feel are the best. If you cannot do so, then your viewpoint must remain under suspicion.
Regarding MIT cables you said: "They can create a deep and wide stage, but within this stage the individual focus of instruments ans voices is not as sharp and small as in real." Precisely....instruments are not sharp and focused or small...EVER!! |
dave_bBo,
I would like a list or a link to the equipment you utilize and the
brands you feel are the best. If you cannot do so, then your viewpoint
must remain under suspicion. -- Dave_b, Bo already answered your question: bo197I cannot give the details. What I can say is that it improves the sound and image to a much higher level. I have done a lot of research in over 5 years of time with our Statement Pro measurement... ---- What Bo does is make claims that he alone is able to offer this extraordinary level of performance. He's never offered specifics of how he does it, or how he measures it, or what equipment he uses. He sounds like the hi-fi equivalent of a carnival barker. |
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I started S.A.P. but these days Jaco has put a lot of new
thoughts and ideas as well. Beside him there are more persons who had great
ideas. When we talk to other shops they do almost no research and innovation. Their focus is on celling audio. It is a different world. I will never say how me measure and what we use to create this level. We are not that stuppid, we love to be sofar ahead of the rest. And we want to keep it this way. When we demo our sound, in a few seconds you know directly how much better the sound is. Tomorrow a client will visit me. He owns a highend set as well ( Wilson Audio Sasha, Wadia, MIT, Audioresearch and Spectral) I will ask him to write his thoughts about my set compared to his set and other highend sets. I will ask him to write his story here at Audiogon. |
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Thanks Bo, good stuff but something is off with your preference for Lilipution sound staging! The only time music sounds small is when it is overwhelmed by the acoustics/size of the venue. I auditioned the PL200's seriously once, and they were abrasively coarse in their rendering of instrumental tone and texture. The ribbon tweeter was horrible...perhaps you have mistaken air for the raspiness of the tweeter on the PL200? |
Noooo I hate too small individual focus like too big. It has to be realistic. Just as in real. I had many discussion about this for many years with different people who play in an ochestra and play an instrument as a profession. many said; this is the first time I hear an instument as in real and also in proportion. |
You need to understand properties of a speaker first before you can sell it. I have proven that I can outperform Avalon loudspeakers by Platinum they way I work and use audio. Tomorrow I will proof that I outperform Wilson Audio Sasha the same way. I will let the person write the story here at Audiogon. I have proven to Monitor Audio Holland that they and other shops are not able to get the same quality of sound as we can achieve with Monitor Audio speakers. |
bo1972"I have proven that I can outperform Avalon loudspeakers by Platinum
they way I work and use audio. Tomorrow I will proof that I outperform Wilson Audio Sasha the same way. " --- Actually Bo, you haven't proven anything. You simply make a lot of claims, then clam up when pressed for detail. Of the last 30 posts in this thread, more than half are yours. Your posts are really beginning to look like SPAM. |
I've heard Rochberg piano music played at my local University Presidents House, and it absolutely overwhelmed her listening room with dynamics and volume...one piano! Try squeezing William Bolcom's Fifth Symphony through your grist mill Bo...maybe when you get done converting it into that 3D sound it will sound tiny enough for you to grasp! |
Individual focus of instruments and voices is a part of Total Sound. Black level is a different part. Decay and air is a different part as well. 3 dimensional sound means that an instrument and voice is standing physical free with air around it. Audio is comparing and that is why I said: you need to do a shootout with different brands with the same set and compare it. The best way of doing this: B&W, Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Focal and Kef all togheter. Put them behind a curtain and let different people judge. When you don't see a speaker it is the best way of comparing. I will try to arrange something like this when other people want to cooperate. |
Some of what you say I agree with, but when you describe instruments as small and focused, that is where we part ways. Sit in front of an orchestra and close your eyes....not much imaging going on. Same goes for most live concerts. I do like imaging in my stereo system, even though it is an exaggeration of reality. A symphony orchestra can not be contained...it breathes, and expands and fills the hall/room. Tympani rool out over the listener. It is awe inspiring....not constrained. |
bo1972 don't know you but by your posts I would guess you are a magician. Nothing up your sleeves. I think the topic here was B&W latest. We are all sure you believe you know all there is to know and you could make all our systems sound better. Maybe if you say it a few hundred more times the rest of us will believe it too. im just sayin 🖖✌️ |
The minimum listening distance for 802D2 or 802D3 would be 9' 10". That is where all the drivers align. You can listen further away if wished (and some definitely do,) but considerably closer will result in the drivers not aligning to their full potential. 802d2 and 802d3 owners Is this information contained in your owners manual ? |
Well, I just skimmed through the online 802 D3 manual out of curiosity. Can't find anything. Unless somebody can tell us the setup info is in their actual hardcopy manual for any of the d2, d3 models - 800, 802,803,804,805.... I really don't understand why B&W doesn't put this kind of critical set up information in BOLD in the owners manual. Here is some more 802 d2,d3 setup info from Patrick of B&W sourced from the Web. ******************************************************* When adjusting rake (tilting forward or back in the vertical plane) you should always start with making the speakers plumb using a level. I used a standard level that has multiple gauges so it can be used vertically or horizontally. The front baffle can be used to adjust rake forward and back, and the side of the speaker (bass cabinet) can be used for adjusting side to side. Once both channels are plumb, then you can being adjusting them for a given listening height and distance. Imagine a sphere projected 9'10" in front of each speaker. Localized within that sphere is the optimal alignment of all drivers. What you are in essence trying to do is to adjust each channel independently so that both spheres perfectly focus in a listening area. With this in mind, it is time to start listening. Throw on a recording of a woman singing with a bass accompaniment if possible. As you sit in your listening chair move a little to the left and focus on that channel. Move your head slowly up so that you begin to listen above the tweeters axis, and then down through that axis until you are a bit below that midrange axis. You'll hear an area where there is a perfect balance between mid and upper frequencies. You'll notice that it sounds both clear and natural (a balance of upper to mid frequencies. Once you locate that spot, you can adjust the front spikes to shift that area to a height that corresponds with your head. You won't need a large adjustment, so go slowly. Once you've taken care of the left channel, all you need to do is adjust the right channel to match. Also pay attention to the bass. If bass quality is negatively impacted, you might have gone a bit too far in your adjustment. Simply back off a bit and you should find that bass quality returns, and the critical alignment of all other drivers is achieved. That is the simple explanation. Regards, Patrick B&W Group North America ******************************************************* |
This kind of info only applies to a few of us nuts....and is probably over the head of most average users. I agree, but the longer a person remains a member here; they become nuts too. It's really called AudioGon(e) - the "e" is silent. Even Wilson Audio relegates this kind of installation info to it's dealers or installation team. Yes, but B&W doesn't only offer one level of speakers to customers like Wilson. B&W is just too good a business and marketing company to be able to resist offering the lower speaker models, and other products. I recall about 20 years ago? if you registered any speaker with B&W online, they sent you a really nice shiny metallic B&W key chain. I wonder if Bo gives his customers a key chain ? :^) Burgeoning audiophiles, (a dying breed?) start out with the lower models. They need this setup info. Its in B&W's interest to provide it. Customers will get more enjoyment with better setup, and are more likely to move up the brand, or hang on to what they have longer. Anyway, I can look look at all my owners manuals over the years from the likes of B&W. ARC, Classe, Krell, etc... in the old days the manuals contained valuable information (design, technical info, measurements). Manuals have been dumbed down, and the 80 page manual is now 8 different languages and the English section is 6 or 7 pages. |
Dave_b .....is that your serial number? Your not a robot are you? lol - no Dave just my initials followed by I think the month and day I joined the other crazies here officially. Unfortunately not a lot of thought went into my moniker; unlike some others here who have great monikers. :^) You know its funny, some folks on forums are very personal, while others are shy and want to stick to their monikers. I am good either way. Cheers Chris *********************************** These are the bass frequency numbers for the D3’s. 17hz 802 D3 19hz 803 D3 20hz 804 D3 I guess the 800 d3 will probably be around 15hz. B&W being marketing kings are waiting till next year to introduce them, (imo) to extend the new design intro. Brilliant ! As a matter of curiosity and wanting to learn; I would be interested to know from those that have already heard them, or get a chance to hear them soon.
The D3 and all B&W 800 series floor models since matrix bracing was introduced, coupled to a wood floor with spikes; will really rock the suspended floor as all excess energy is being drained down through the spikes. Play at your loudest SPL’s and feel the cabinet. You feel little if any vibration at all. Unlike speakers that by design vibrate and resonate through their cabinets as well. Two different design approaches. I will provide observations as well if I get the opportunity. Cheers |
The 802D3's I heard sounded great but I'm not sure they are $22K great? Can't get over the looks....love the all wood larger cabinets on my older model 802D2's! Mine also seem to have a warmer sound and are more forgiving/musical to my ear. At $15K I thought the 802D series was a good value...at $22K not so much:( |
Dear dave, during a big concert the inyimate focus dissapears. At my friends house it was very small and direct. I love acoustic music. Like classical music with one or a few instruments. The physical intimate appearance is based on differrent parts. - You need depth and width - you need a sharp individual focus of voices and instruments - you need a stunning black level - you need the air around voices This creates the same experience I had at my friends house. In the last years I have doen many shootouts with Audioquest cables against MIT cables in differebt sets. At the end they all preferred the AQ cables. This is based on the more physical 3D stage with a more intimate presentation. |
Yesterday I had a new client who visit me. He plays with the Wilson Audio Sasha one and only plays classical music. I will phone him tonight to aks him about the differences of his set between mine to write it down overhere. He called my set; the new reference frame. The reference frame are all the parts togheter. So you have an idea what the difference is between a highend set and mine. |
Dear Dave, I loved the older looks as well. I wanted to buy a set of 800D high gloss black only when the crossovers and stage depth would have been better. The first time I saw the pictures of the new D3 series, I thought I was looking at B&W 800 copy speakers from China. They don't look and sound like 22000 dollar speakers. When Monitor Audio would have come with speaker who look this, I would have been very irritated. I will try to listen to them this month again, but I have my doubts. It looks like they have become more clinical sounding speakers. This is the last thing you want! |
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And for calling out the shameful behavior, my post was removed by the moderator. Since there are clearly moderators viewing this thread, I'll ask them directly - how is it that you are allowing members to blatantly sell competing products in someone else's thread? I didn't think that's what this forum was supposed to be about. |
Yes the thread is being moderated as can be seen by the many removed posts. Those that have been on this thread since it started will see that more than 10 posts were removed from just the first page. The Audiogon staff must have their hands full dealing with threads, on top of the new Site going live. If you see suspicious posts, it looks like when logged in as a member, there is now on each thread a "Report this" button on the OP (Original Post) . You can also email audio support. |
I always hesitate to invite censorship unless specific published rules or guidelines are broken.. Let people post what they will. Either don't read it or make of it what you will, good or bad. If a published guideline is broken in a post call the person out and move on. I imagine it cost money for threads to be moderated manually. If there are automated tools used to delete clear violations, then that would be a good thing. |
