@Bo1972
I'd like to see a pic of one of your setups. Since this thread is about the new B&W 800 series, could you please show us "one" link to one of your setups with any B&W speakers from the 800 series - any generation will do. As you are in the business you must have many pics - correct ? thanks. |
11-27-15: Ptss
Honestly, Bo Bo & friends should go in a corner,---- - - and enjoy themselves.......Actually; why not start their own thread? Have fun with other; childish ignorant self centered fools who probably toilet trained very late,if ever. @Ptss the OP of this thread. Honestly..... you sound like you are in a lot of thread pain. Even a cowboy that loves a dying horse in pain shoots it to put it out of its misery. One email to the excellent audiogon moderators solves this problem. If you choose to keep the thread open I have a question for you. Here is your original post. I've reviewed the TAS Factory Tour and the 802 D3 details and am impressed with all improvements; and the common sense used.
I also find the new styling very intelligent related to dispersion. Comments? I would like your opinion on why you feel these speakers are improvements, show common sense, and why they are intelligent related to dispersion. I am always looks to learn. As the OP of this thread I look forward to response. Please include past B&W experience. |
We have blessings from Ptss. Lets have some fun. Ptss - I've reviewed the TAS Factory Tour and the 802 D3 details and am impressed with all improvements; and the common sense used. Let's discuss Common Sense first. Fact - All B&W 800 series speakers including the latest D3's are voiced in an Anechoic Chamber. Click on the link. http://blog.bowers-wilkins.com/sound-lab/tools-of-the-trade-the-anechoic-chamber/ An anechoic chamber ("an-echoic" meaning non-reflective, non-echoing or echo-free) is a room designed to completely absorb reflections of either sound or electromagnetic waves. They are also insulated from exterior sources of noise. What does this B&W speaker voicing strategy mean for the average Music Lover or Audiophile. Well I have been at this audio hobby consciously since I was about 13. I have yet to come across any Audiophile or Music Lover, not associated with the business in some way, that has a room that looks anything like that. Now I did reach out to B&W a few weeks ago because, well I always look to learn and I was curious about how they managed to get such low frequency numbers out of such small boxes on the new D3's. That's another discussion....if you like........ This was their response. *********************************** Bowers & Wilkins
The trouble with measuring in real rooms, especially where bass response is concerned, is that they are all different. If you try to measure any speaker in a real room, you get all sorts of measurement deviations due to reflections and room modes. Not only that, but you get a different result if you change rooms or if you merely change the position in the same room. Anechoic conditions are chosen for measurement, as they at least define a consistent and repeatable environment. It is the job of the speaker designer to choose an anechoic curve alignment (roll-off-shape) that sounds right when the speaker is listened to in a real room and this tends to be different for each model.
Kind regards,
Bowers & Wilkins *********************************** So no new news here. We all knew this already, right ? Now Common Sense ? The speakers are designed and voiced in an Anechoic room. This is by far IMO, the biggest reason B&W 800 series are hit and miss with many audiophiles. I have owned a set of B&W speakers in my collection since the 70's. IMO - those with a stubborn British type (attitude) personality, who also have flexibility in the room in regards to speaker positioning, and damping have a chance with them long term. The other personality type - Audiophile frequent flyer - that prefers plug and play; drop them into a room maybe play with some electronics tuning and call it a day. You will never get to what they can actually do. So do they make sense for the average audiophile putting them into his shared living room with the big TV and imported glass coffee table ? Now how about studios. Definitely - they know what to do with them. They use them like a tool. They are very popular with studios since the 801 set the standard years ago. Now here is a real problem. Audiophile Nigel reads that his latest album which he absolutely loves was mastered at Sterling Sound in New York. http://sterling-sound.com/ He finds out that they use 800 series. He says to himself "Man, I got to get me a pair of those". But Nigel lives in a house with his wife and two kids and his stereo in his living room. And it looks like it is going to be that way for a long time. I ask you - does it not make more sense to get speakers that were voiced under real world conditions. IMO, IME ....... Bo1972 - It doens't make sense to compare B&W with B&W, you need to compare the 800D3 series with competitors in the same price range. In order to do proper comparisons with other competitors, one needs to learn first how to properly set up a specific brand of speaker. You need to know the history. You don't toss them into a room with a bunch of other speakers and start manipulating electronics for imaging. Your piss and vinegar attitude shows a lot of passion - fine; but it is also a little misguided imo. Your bias can be forgiven because you are in the business. You can't help yourself. But for those of us that are not connected to the business in any way (manufacturers, dealers, distributors, special relationships) your's and others biases on these forums is very evident in the posts. The fact is all these forums represent a tip of the iceberg scenario anyway. And there is no such thing as bad publicity. B&W is laughing all the way to the bank . Show us one of your rooms with "ANY" speaker setup. or are you going to ignore this again and keep playing politician. .
coffee time up guys .....later... |
Ptss - Ct0517, How do I do that? This new audiogon format does not allow me to link specific audiogon posts only pages. See the first post on this page for more info. The relevant text is shown below. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/eminent-technology-et-2-tonearm-owners?page=31 I don't usually re-read my posts. I think I might be a little worried about what I might have actually said. Sometimes the morning coffee goes to your head. There was some discussion around amplifiers. which came around to remembering that the Speaker is the Alpha over the Amplifier and that the Room is the Alpha over the Speaker. In regards to how one chooses the type/design of Speaker first and then narrowing it down. taken from that previous page post. IMO, IME There are a few rules (guidelines) in audio. The rules that revolve around the speakers themselves, have a big effect on the amplifier design.
For example if we put our experiences aside and, come into this as if we were new to the hobby. Consider these three questions.
Consider each as a separate consideration onto itself. A sort of silo.
1) What if a person wants to reproduce full range music. What majority would not want this ? To hear all that was recorded.
2) What if a person wants good efficiency - again who doesn't really want this...no different than installing a furnace/air conditioner ? We check off the high efficiency box if we can. This also leads to lower utility bills, saving the planet, just make sense...
3) What if the person wants the reproducers "speakers" to take up a small area - un-obtrusive. Bookshelf size - Again if you could why not ? Who really wants 8 foot towers in their living room? Or those huge speakers that need to be disguised as huge sculptures in the dwelling to work - really ?
Well you can only have two of the three above. If someone doesn't believe it; run through the math and the scenarios of the 3 options.
If a friend asks me today for an opinion, and I know he has not already been made biased by reviews, dealers, forums, etc... I will say take your pick of the two that most appeal to you. Then look at the one that got left out. Whichever one it is - go the opposite to it in design - and if you can accept that, you're done. Your path is clear. Go find that speaker ! All choices in between are a compromise - The previous youtube example with the 804 and 805 demonstrate speakers that try to accomplish points 1 and 3. So lets say with the above approach a person identifies 3 speaker candidates. I would if I was spending a small fortune on these speakers. 1) First call the speaker manufacturer direct (not the dealer) and get details. No one knows more about the speakers than the designer/manufacturer. If step one passes **** 2) Arrange to demo them in your own space. if this is not possible, 3) Demo them in the dealer space with your amp and music. Consider how close their room is to yours. 4) If you can't demo what you buy will be based on point one + friends, and other recommendations. **** If the manufacturer representative will not give you the time of day and sends you to a dealer. Move to the next speaker. Tell the manufacturer about your room volume, listening habits, and how YOU would like to have the speakers positioned - ideally. Find out how the speakers were designed. Ask him. Does he listen to Bach or AC/DC in his dedicated room, or his living room (maybe he is a boutique maker ?) What amps is he using? There will always be 3 or 4 amps any speaker maker has at his shop. This is too much of a niche business for a manufacturer to build a speaker that only works with one amplifier type. If the amplifiers he mentions represent different designs, then you have found a speaker design that will probably work with different amps. Make sure you find out the different brands and model and if they are both tube and SS designs. If the speaker is rated 50 - 200 watts ask him how much the presentation will change with your preferred room setup with 25, 50 and 200 and 400 watts. (Both SS and Tube) If discussions go well, go to the dealer to hear the new speakers; or start searching for used speakers like this. If he gives you the B&W story (voiced in an anechoic chamber) you know you will have your work cut out for you. Are you sure you really want this speaker? You can see what kind of room treatment is used in that youtube video. And the sound in that video may be too revealing still for some people. Further damping needed on the highs. And also sometimes you need to read between the lines with speaker reviews as well. Here is a clear warning to an Audiophile. ************************************************ "Higher in frequency, the response trend (averaged across a 30 degrees lateral window on the tweeter axis) is basically flat, but with a slight excess of energy in the presence region and a corresponding lack of energy in the top octave. All things being equal, this will make the speaker both a little too revealing of recorded detail and somewhat fussy when it comes to the quality of source and amplification components." ************************************************ These words tell me this Speaker's studio role comes first. To let the master engineer hear everything so he can do his/her job. It is not this speaker's design/job to present nice warm musical music with every piece of music you own. The Audiophile purchasing the speaker described here will be dealing with a level of resolution, that every micro level - wire change will make a difference. Is this what you really what ? Or do you want to just lay back in your chair and listen to music. This quote btw is from the Stereophile review of the 801 Matrix. Now the funny thing is some will read that and actually say to themselves; "that sounds really cool" and be attracted to it. In the end you will drive yourself batty because what really counts most here is is the quality of the original recording file that is sent to the mastering studios. Good recordings sound great, bad ones sound bad. Some speakers (not the 800 series) are able to make even bad recordings sound tolerable. |
ok lets have some more fun. I broke this up into two posts. Ptss, I try to answer your question from my experiences in the next post. Going to try to use youtube to illustrate something. In order for readers to participate here, you will need a computer with built in speakers and decent external headphones (not the kind that came with your phone) that can be plugged into the computer as well. With the holidays approaching, lets say you are shopping at a big mall. You are walking through and hear music playing. You approach it gets louder. A nice retail Audio storefront. A dying breed ? You stand in the doorway and listen to the music that is playing. Click on the following youtube link. No affiliation to the video. 1) Please first listen to it through your built in computer speakers. No external headphones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiVL36Fp7i0 The reason I did this is because I have been to dealer showrooms where the music sounded just like that youtube. Speakers sound bright. There just happens to be a large tonal imbalance with my Lenovo laptop's built in speakers. They don't do bass well. If this is what you hear in your actual room with your home speakers it could mean a number of things including too much room volume for the speakers, amplifiers that don't have the balls to deliver on the B&W bass requirements going down to 3 ohms. The fixes should all include trying to establish good tonal balance between highs, medium, lows. When it's there you will know. This can include moving the speakers closer to the front wall for bass reinforcement. But this will also collapse the soundstage depth, and will interfere with the soundstage definition. Another option is adding subwoofer/s. But this also gets more complicated. Its another discussion. Another option is to bring in more power. B&W always respond with better bass with more power. If tube amps, make sure the transformers are good quality and my experience has been the 4 ohms tap produces the best bass. With SS Class A and A/b amplifiers make sure the wattage specs double down. Some like McIntosh another type of SS design with autoformers. They will all sound different. 2) Now please listen to the same link but this time with your "external headphones plugged" into your computer. I have a pair of Denon and Grados. The sound with my headphones becomes more balanced. The music now has meat on the bones. Do you hear it ? Comments.... |
illuminator
I heard the 802 D3 speakers last week at the dealer here in town. They sounded great! @illuminator B&W is very tough on dealers. They have sales quotas to meet or they could lose the brand. It is in the dealers interest to play music that sounds great on the speakers. Now I don’t know you, and whether you were casually listening to them, how many times you heard them. or have an actual interest to buy them. I would put a dozen songs that stir your music soul on a cd or usb stick. Old music, newer music, pure instrumentals, female voices, male voices. Mix it up. Go listen again. If you can tell us the dealer name they may have a pic of their room setup on a website that we can share with the others here. Happy listening |
illuminator - The dealer is Audio Solutions in Indianapolis, IN. The setup was the Lumin A1 Network Player Thanks Chuck some rooms pics from that dealer for others. http://theaudiosolutions.com/showroom/ Dealers have a real challenge with multiple speakers / same room and demos. If idle speakers in a room are not connected to an amp - sound waves from another speaker can cause those idle drivers to resonate as spl’s rise. Tremendous respect for all those in the audio business. |
Bo1972 - I had a look at those pl-500's. Ok lets talk gear. Some observations and a couple questions for you. You can get more info on the Monitor Audio Platinum II's here. http://canadahifi.com/monitor-audio-new-platinum-ii-loudspeaker-range/ Not sure about the finish on those speakers. I think you need to discuss this with Monitor Audio. The finish reminds me of this. http://www.shat.it/images/800_matrix_copia.jpg and this. http://www.hifimusic.co.il/download/file.php?id=12528 Does this prove that with styling what goes around comes around ? I like the fact that the bass drivers are top and bottom on those 500's. This shows an understanding of bass wave cancellation, allowing for purer bass notes and easy room placement. Get the bass right, everything else falls into place. I have not heard better for two channel audio and room integration. Now companies including B&W jam the woofers on top of one another on the main cabinet though separated. Same principle, but not the same effect. Bass is all simple physics and money. Put woofers high and woofers low in separate cabinets costs a lot more money to do, and you start losing the WAF appeal quickly. This cuts into sales. PL 500 II MSRP: $34,995 /pair Flagship 3-way / 4 driver tower system using four 8″ RDT II long-throw bass drivers and dual 4″ RDT II TLE-loaded midrange drivers in an M-T-M configuration with the MPD high frequency transducer. For this kind of money I expect an all out assault speaker. No subs needed for full scale classical, rock, jazz, etc... Without hearing them I believe due to the box size, and room size, you may still need sub/s with those pl-500 speakers for realistic presentations ? What do you think ? You told us in an earlier post that silver wiring is used and WBT's. These are silver plated and I can't see the backs. from the website IMPROVED CROSSOVER DESIGNCrossovers have been completely re-developed using air core inductors in midrange / tweeter sections and laminated steel cores for bass sections. Custom made audiophile grade metallised polypropylene capacitors are selected to operate within a 1% tolerance for the best possible sound quality. Platinum II speakers are internally wired using Monitor Audio’s ‘Pureflow’ silver-plated OFC copper cable, selected for its audio purity and high conductivity. Bo1972. How has your experience been with reliability and build quality as these Monitor Audio speakers are Made in China. Any problems, growing pains ? And I guess I am curious also - why all the attention on the 800 series D3's. Are they the ones taking most of your customers away ? Its like you are saying that is my reference point ? Well, everyone whether in pro audio or not, needs one and has a personal reference point. Cheers
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Bo1972 - When I went to the toilet over there I saw a black pair of B&W 800 matrix when I was taking a piss. :^) When I go downstairs and I make a left to my older Room A and I see them inside there; They make me want to piss too....before I start listening. Bo1972 - Monitor Audio is superior in timing and response. Bo - for a minute put yourself in an audiophile's shoes with his own system, instead of installing systems for customers. Think about this. These B&W speakers are easily modified for timing and response. They came from the B&W factory with silver wire and WBT connectors. Highest quality crossovers - four on each speakers for each driver, built from materials that will last longer than me. They can be Quad amplified. For the crazy person the crossovers are an open design easily accessible behind each drivers back panel. This allows the person to, if not satisfied with timing or response; to easily bypass factory crossovers, and bring in a component like the Krell or Pass Lab crossovers; https://passlabs.com/products/preamplifiers/speciality/xvr-1tailor the crossover points for your own room nodes. You can put a SS amp/s on the bottom for the woofers and tubes on the midrange/tweeters if you want . Open access speaker design under John Bowers - RIP. Look forward to your shootout. Consider starting a Monitor Audio thread too. Cheers |
D3 series - Ringing test Interesting video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI-FSIzyFQ0 Those of you that are into vinyl know that resonance plays a big part in what we hear. Vinyl is a mechanical, resonance, vibration process. If you have a cartridge that is high compliance (springy cantilever) and put it on a tonearm armtube that is rigid and heavily damped. The result will not be optimal. Change the cartridge to low compliance and the results should improve. Put that same high compliance cartridge on a lighter aluminum tonearm armtube - it will sound much better. Different ways to get to the end. You can see in this video the direction that B&W has gone in their design of the D3’s. Now is this a good or bad thing ? I think the test of time - and Bo :^) - will help to determine this. |
Bo - you mentioned the Munich show earlier in this thread and talking with Dan D'Agostino. I have had conversations with him. What did you talk about ?
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The minimum listening distance for 802D2 or 802D3 would be 9' 10". That is where all the drivers align. You can listen further away if wished (and some definitely do,) but considerably closer will result in the drivers not aligning to their full potential.
Regards,
Patrick
B&W Group North America 802d2 and 802d3 owners Is this information contained in your owners manual ? |
Well, I just skimmed through the online 802 D3 manual out of curiosity. Can't find anything. Unless somebody can tell us the setup info is in their actual hardcopy manual for any of the d2, d3 models - 800, 802,803,804,805.... I really don't understand why B&W doesn't put this kind of critical set up information in BOLD in the owners manual.
Here is some more 802 d2,d3 setup info from Patrick of B&W sourced from the Web.
*******************************************************
When adjusting rake (tilting forward or back in the vertical plane) you should always start with making the speakers plumb using a level. I used a standard level that has multiple gauges so it can be used vertically or horizontally. The front baffle can be used to adjust rake forward and back, and the side of the speaker (bass cabinet) can be used for adjusting side to side. Once both channels are plumb, then you can being adjusting them for a given listening height and distance.
Imagine a sphere projected 9'10" in front of each speaker. Localized within that sphere is the optimal alignment of all drivers. What you are in essence trying to do is to adjust each channel independently so that both spheres perfectly focus in a listening area. With this in mind, it is time to start listening. Throw on a recording of a woman singing with a bass accompaniment if possible. As you sit in your listening chair move a little to the left and focus on that channel. Move your head slowly up so that you begin to listen above the tweeters axis, and then down through that axis until you are a bit below that midrange axis. You'll hear an area where there is a perfect balance between mid and upper frequencies. You'll notice that it sounds both clear and natural (a balance of upper to mid frequencies.
Once you locate that spot, you can adjust the front spikes to shift that area to a height that corresponds with your head. You won't need a large adjustment, so go slowly. Once you've taken care of the left channel, all you need to do is adjust the right channel to match. Also pay attention to the bass. If bass quality is negatively impacted, you might have gone a bit too far in your adjustment. Simply back off a bit and you should find that bass quality returns, and the critical alignment of all other drivers is achieved.
That is the simple explanation.
Regards,
Patrick
B&W Group North America
*******************************************************
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This kind of info only applies to a few of us nuts....and is probably over the head of most average users. I agree, but the longer a person remains a member here; they become nuts too. It's really called AudioGon(e) - the "e" is silent. Even Wilson Audio relegates this kind of installation info to it's dealers or installation team. Yes, but B&W doesn't only offer one level of speakers to customers like Wilson. B&W is just too good a business and marketing company to be able to resist offering the lower speaker models, and other products. I recall about 20 years ago? if you registered any speaker with B&W online, they sent you a really nice shiny metallic B&W key chain. I wonder if Bo gives his customers a key chain ? :^) Burgeoning audiophiles, (a dying breed?) start out with the lower models. They need this setup info. Its in B&W's interest to provide it. Customers will get more enjoyment with better setup, and are more likely to move up the brand, or hang on to what they have longer. Anyway, I can look look at all my owners manuals over the years from the likes of B&W. ARC, Classe, Krell, etc... in the old days the manuals contained valuable information (design, technical info, measurements). Manuals have been dumbed down, and the 80 page manual is now 8 different languages and the English section is 6 or 7 pages. |
Dave_b .....is that your serial number? Your not a robot are you? lol - no Dave just my initials followed by I think the month and day I joined the other crazies here officially. Unfortunately not a lot of thought went into my moniker; unlike some others here who have great monikers. :^) You know its funny, some folks on forums are very personal, while others are shy and want to stick to their monikers. I am good either way. Cheers Chris *********************************** These are the bass frequency numbers for the D3’s. 17hz 802 D3 19hz 803 D3 20hz 804 D3 I guess the 800 d3 will probably be around 15hz. B&W being marketing kings are waiting till next year to introduce them, (imo) to extend the new design intro. Brilliant ! As a matter of curiosity and wanting to learn; I would be interested to know from those that have already heard them, or get a chance to hear them soon. - The Model of D3 used.
- Was a subwoofer used. If yes - how did they sound with and without a sub/s, with full range music.
- Room Size and type of floor.
Was it a poured concrete floor like in shopping malls/strip mall ground floor unit/house basement ; or was it suspended wood beam (common in boutique high end retail stores who may be using a renovated two story older home or building. The D3 and all B&W 800 series floor models since matrix bracing was introduced, coupled to a wood floor with spikes; will really rock the suspended floor as all excess energy is being drained down through the spikes. Play at your loudest SPL’s and feel the cabinet. You feel little if any vibration at all. Unlike speakers that by design vibrate and resonate through their cabinets as well. Two different design approaches. I will provide observations as well if I get the opportunity. Cheers |
Yes the thread is being moderated as can be seen by the many removed posts. Those that have been on this thread since it started will see that more than 10 posts were removed from just the first page. The Audiogon staff must have their hands full dealing with threads, on top of the new Site going live.
If you see suspicious posts, it looks like when logged in as a member, there is now on each thread a "Report this" button on the OP (Original Post) . You can also email audio support.
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Ever look at some of the posts on major news site articles on major current events? Audiogon is kindergarten in comparison. Its not an apples to apples comparison. I have been aware of and involved with this audio hobby - almost said bobby lol ! , for 40 years since I was 13. Audiophilia, and specifically the Audiophile - is a very unique, refined, special person :^) Thats what my wife tells me anyway. Not sure what she tells others behind my back..... That makes AudioGon(e) very special and unique compared to the other websites . It is also the biggest and the best (imo) of the audio sites. And to make a one off extreme comparison. If AudioGon or B&W as a company disappear, not just change hands but really disappear - this Audio business and hobby no longer exists. Anyway will try to add some more fun into the thread and stay on topic. Cheers |
Always hated trying to level speakers with the standard spike assemblies. No. 1 reason - for Audiophile pulled disks. No. 2 reason - trying to remove or attach an interconnect to a preamp situated low on a heavy immovable rack close to the wall. |
nice early Christmas gift Greginnh - you must have been good ..... congrats.. Do you listen to full scale music and if so are subs used in your room ? What has me very curious about these D3's and I would like to learn more. Here are the specs for the 803 and 802 d2 and d3. 802 d2 (34Hz – 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis) 802 d3 (17Hz to 28kHz ±3dB on reference axis 803 d2 (35hz to 28khz ±3dB on reference axis) 803 d3 (19hz to 28khz ±3dB on reference axis ) The D3's are a full octave lower on paper with a smaller cabinet and a stiffer design than the d2. Are you able to hear 19 hz on your 803 d3 in your room setup ? Here is a sample Bass 1 - 100hz frequency sweep. One needs to listen through headphones, and you can put the signal through your main system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukQ6OSs3dWoThe volume needs to be turned up a bit for the 5 - 15 hz frequencies. ****************************************** Just thinking out loud.. We know musical scales are written with eight notes. For example, the C Major scale is written C D E F G A B C, the initial and final Cs being an octave apart. Two notes separated by an octave have the same letter name and are of the same pitch class. The frequency doubles as you go up one octave and halves as you go down. Bass notes are very low frequency which is why there is about 17 hz difference here between this lowest octave, and yet it represents a full octave. Full range bass even with a speaker capable by design, and tested by the manufacturer, assumes a Listener room has the acoustic properties that allow those speakers to play those notes; and reproduced music is played back that actually contains those frequencies. Remember this could be room effects that was captured in the recording not just the instruments. When room effects are captured in a great recording, playing back this recording in your room can take on some "live" characteristics. It adds to the foolery. I am sure all of us here have this music in our personal music collections. In smaller sized speakers in order to make them sound right in a real room, the designer will put in a roll off in the bass. So even by the time the notes hit 50 hz, maybe even 100 hz with some speakers; their DB output level in the bass has been greatly reduced already, and only going down in db the further down you go. Also you will l notice how much lower in volume the 20 hz and down was in that youtube sine wave video? This is the way we hear. But these B&W D3's show full range specs again in a fairly small speaker size. Specs not seen since the days of Matrix Series which needed active equalization as designed by B&W. The 801 s2-s3 matrix was able to achieve full range with the active equalization. Only the 800 matrix model is full range without equalization. But it is also big. So these D3's with their size really hint at kind of a big deal for me on paper. So is it really a big deal or not ? I am curious if D3 listeners "without" sub/s in place are really able to hear the lowest octave "well" with full scale music on the d3's ? ..... or do you still need to bring in sub/s ? Speaking of bass, this guy has the lowest voice in the world. He is able to cover 10 octaves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9P1ymFCxf0 His vocal cords are twice as long as normal and the supporting muscles have more movement. |
Bcgator - Thanks for the observations in your post. When u say. Bcgator - That's about as unscientific as it gets, of course, but I've heard those effects on other speakers so I knew what to listen for and it just wasn't there. Unscientific? Not so sure about that. This hobby is based on our ears and our own real rooms. To myself, what better way to know than with music you are familiar with if something is there or it isn't in a setup, especially if that room is close to yours in dimensions. I mentioned the 3 aspects in the last post. They are equally important in my experience. A copy and paste Full range bass even with a speaker capable by design, and tested by the manufacturer, assumes a Listener room has the acoustic properties that allow those speakers to play those notes; and reproduced music is played back that actually contains those frequencies.
So based on your post of listening to familiar music, and assuming the speakers are full range and driven appropriately. That leaves (2) the Room. Curious how big this Magnolia room is in Arizona? Did it look like this ? https://www.magnoliaav.com/showcases/listening-roomFor fun - looks like too much toe in to me in the pic, to meet the 9 ft. 10 " 802 minimum distance requirement for drivers to align? Maybe just an illusion the way the picture was taken. In the video they are pointing straight. What can't be seen in the video within the link is how high the ceiling is and if it is closed at the back ? Really cool btw. No Magnolia's here in Ontario. Just your average Best Buy in one large industrial sized room. Bcgator - On another day, in another room, maybe someone else would experience them differently. Very true. You can't defy physics. Its a delicate balancing act sometimes amps/speaker/room. Too much room and the speaker can't pressurize it properly to hear the low bass. This can put a strain on the amplification. And all 800 series speakers will let you know if the amps are stressed. They get grainy in the HF. if using SS, I always try to shoot for over sized SS amps that stay in cruise mode on music peaks with 800 series. If the SS amp high frequencies can compete with my tube gear I am doing ok. Cheers |
dave_b
Anybody find out any information on the crossovers? Seems strange that there is no mention, unlike the D2 series which hilighted the Mundorf Caps etc... Here is some info Dave. from absolute sound The crossover location was also changed. It used to be housed in the plinth but has now been moved against the heavy aluminum back panel, which acts as a heatsink. This update has permitted a new solid-aluminum plinth design which is not only more stable but less resonant. Our good friend Bobby is all over the Absolute Sound article comments section :^) :^) Where is Bo anyways ? Here is one Crossover pic. http://www.recordere.dk/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/crossover.jpg |
@mmeysarosh good info in your post. When u say. While I’m not really enamored by looks so much, this speakers measured performance and positive press are impressive. While certainly not inexpensive, their performance levels seem to be in line to their market competition so I would certainly have a listen to them. As far as not being inexpensive, they are also still Made in England. This will be more expensive. I am not a Frequent Flyer with gear. It needs to pass the hardest test - the test of time. I don’t tolerate downtime or failures. The jury IMO is still out on offshore manufacturing. I can tell you that I have owned boutique amps where you get to know the manufacturer / designer well. They have ordered in the past inexpensive common parts like resistors/capacitors from offshore. I have heard horror stories on how a $2.00 part can fail, causing the 5 figure amp to fail. If the buyer is local ok - but what if they are in a different country or a situation where the amp needs to be shipped to be repaired. Is B&W all in house with 800 series parts ? Maybe I will send them an email to find out. fwiw - My first B&W’s were new Dm2000’s bought new at Bay Bloor Radio in Toronto. My brother is still using them. Cheers |
Lastly, specifications and frequency plots tell you nothing about how they sound..same goes for other gear. Dave - If you add "in your room" after the word sound. I agree Otherwise specs and frequency plots tell you the story from the manufacturers room and their testing. This is important. Its a start and puts you in the ball park to drill down further. It will tell you for example if an amp by its design specs has any chance with that speaker by its design specs. In the end imo, it does boil down to your own room size, its acoustics and your gear. . ****************************************** Here is an example of this that I find really interesting in regards to B&W, that I would like to share. This graph was sent to me by B&W Europe years ago http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/i/f/1395954200.jpgIt is the frequency plot for the 801 matrix "without" using the supplied Bass Alignment Filter. (not sure if it is 801 s2 or s3) B&W England are the ones that drew the two dotted lines on the graph. The 801 matrix speakers were designed to be used with the BAF. The speakers with BAF devices were shipped to original owners. But these devices became lost as speakers changed hands. They pop up on their own on ebay. The two interesting parts. Part 1 Not only does adding the BAF filter as designed give you a smoother response and allow the speaker to hit 20 hz. The BAF makes the 801 matrix speaker much more efficient . Sorry for the quality, but the ohm ratings can be seen on the right 8 - 6 - 4 - 2 ohms. The 801 matrix s2 and s3 are a very easy 6 ohm steady load with the active equalization provided by the BAF. This opens up amp choices. Part 2 Audiophile opinions on the BAF device are kind of split. Not sure if its an even 50% like it, 50% don't like it, but you have the two camps. Why the difference? The room; its acoustic properties, and how the 801 (aka relationship destroyer) deals with it. There is a reason B&W no longer make the 801. You need a dedicated room. Its makes no business sense. 801 matrix owners today (there are many out there and some reading here), that could NOT make the BAF work with the speaker; or who never used it, or even heard of the BAF before; are taxing their amps way more to make bass with the 801. Just sayin.... |
I thought u said no 3d sound stage in live music ......:^)
Hey Bobby...where are you man ?
Mapman.. are you going to tell us the Monitor Audio - B&W shootout results ?
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